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1. Hi Nate, hope you are going well 🙂

   Over the years that you were involved in the COC church, it sounds as if its main teachings emphasised the the bible as the single and complete inerrant authority.

   I just wanted to ask,

   1. Was Jesus considered to be the Living Word, or was the bible considered to be the primary representative of God?

   2. Which did the church focus more on – scripture, or praying and seeking guidance from Jesus? Or was this seen as the same thing?

   3. How much focus did the church place on seeking Gods spiritual guidance?

   I know that churches are made up of people 🙂 and peoples can vary, I was more asking about what the church itself taught while you were there and how did people respond to this.

   Kind regards, Ryan

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2. Hi Ryan,

   Thanks for the questions, and I’ve been doing great — thanks for asking. Hope you are too. 🙂

   Jesus was considered to be the Living Word, as John lays out, but I’d still have to say that the most focus was placed on the Bible. The CoC believes that the time of miracles and direct revelation have passed (and there are several passages they’d point to to back that up). So while they do believe that praying for guidance is vital, they think that guidance comes subtly — they think it would be hard to point to specific moments and say, “that’s where God or Jesus told me _____ .” They think the guidance comes by giving us realizations during Bible study, etc.

   So everything really comes down to the Bible, because it’s pretty much “set in stone.” If someone were to say that God had told them to do something that went against what the Bible said, people in the CoC would not believe them. The Bible is paramount, because people’s feelings can often be misleading.

   Does that help? Let me know if some of my answer needs more clarification.

   Thanks again!

   Nate

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3. Thanks for your thoughtful response Nate, always appreciated

   Yes I think you clarified things. I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately.

   I was wondering though,

   If a writer can accidently place a typo on the in the print of a translation of the bible, which has been done before –

   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_errata (Bible errata)

   Then it seems that the bible is only a pointer to God. The books themselves are not perfect, because perfection would then make one translation as perfect and discount all others.

   Which then extends to the question – if the books are perfect, which translation does the COC take as being the perfect inerrant word of God?

   I don’t think this discounts the core message of salvation or the accounts of Christ – since translations are part of the evolution of language, and language strikes me to be a vehicle, rather than The destination.

   You wrote, “So everything really comes down to the Bible, because it’s pretty much “set in stone.” If someone were to say that God had told them to do something that went against what the Bible said, people in the CoC would not believe them.”

   I wonder though, isn’t this kind of what the Pharisees and the Sadducees did when Jesus claimed to be the Son of God? Weren’t these groups of people also working off past scripture and being very careful not to depart from their former set understanding of what those scriptures mean? Jesus makes reference to this when referring to the Pharisees (John 5:37-39).

   And I appreciate that those very words come from the bible 🙂

   But is it possible that the bible can be an idol in and of itself, in the sense that it by treating it as inerrant it closes people up, since then the book is the end point, and nothing goes beyond the book. But if the books purpose is to point to God then the book is not the end point, and it points beyond it, where it explains life is found. If people are to focus on words in a book only, on the letter and treat that letter as the conclusion.

   Considering that there are so many translations, If language is the vehicle to understanding, then maybe the letter is not as important as the intension of the book, which is namely in Christianity – to point to Christ as God and Saviour.

   And then I also wonder, where in the book(s) does the claim to perfection exist? If it’s there, I haven’t found it. There are references to inspiration (Timothy 3:16) but does this then ascribe the book(s) perfection in written form?

   It also seems to me that there are immense dangers through this line of thinking. Islam also carries the belief of divine perfection in words but pushes it even further. Even though they were an offshoot of Christian scripture, many see the Qur’an as the sole divine Word in and of itself, that it is literally Gods word, therefore Gods native tongue is speaks Arabic, since Arabic is the language.

   Because of this, it follows (arguably) the Qur’an can never be “truly” translated. It is set in stone. This has caused many divisions as to how this inerrant perfection should be interpreted.

   If anything, I think here is a longstanding example of where the evolution of language is stifled, and the vehicle of communication is treated as the destination itself.
   Words are then treated as Divine Authority, rather than pointers to divine Authority. The book is then considered “The Conclusion”, and why would people go beyond the Conclusion?

   Could it be instead that the book communicates the importance of a fellowship with God – it doesn’t claim to be god. If this is so then what matters is what goes beyond the book. Prayer and Gods guidance then becomes an important focus, rather than just biblical hermeneutics and Exegesis.

   The focus can then be moved beyond the book(s) to instead focusing on the teachings in action and the Authority the book points to. The spiritual becomes the focus. If God exists beyond the book, if the book points to that existence then I think the more important question is – is there anything beyond the book?

   Is there a God where the book points to? That to me is the more important question 🙂

   Apologies for the length of this post, but it’s helped me organise my thoughts.

   All the best, Ryan

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4. Hey Ryan,

   You bring up some great questions.

   if the books are perfect, which translation does the COC take as being the perfect inerrant word of God?

   They do understand that translations are tricky issues. Most of them wouldn’t say that there’s only one “right” translation; however, they tend to shy away from the translations that try to “dumb down” the text. They worry that there’s too much room for error there, and they prefer to stick to translations that try to be precise with each word and thought. Most people in the CoC will use the ASV, NKJV, or ESV. You might occasionally find one that likes the NIV, and every now and then you’ll find an elderly person that prefers the KJV.

   I wonder though, isn’t this kind of what the Pharisees and the Sadducees did when Jesus claimed to be the Son of God? Weren’t these groups of people also working off past scripture and being very careful not to depart from their former set understanding of what those scriptures mean?

   But is it possible that the bible can be an idol in and of itself, in the sense that it by treating it as inerrant it closes people up, since then the book is the end point, and nothing goes beyond the book. But if the books purpose is to point to God then the book is not the end point, and it points beyond it

   Could it be instead that the book communicates the importance of a fellowship with God – it doesn’t claim to be god. If this is so then what matters is what goes beyond the book. Prayer and Gods guidance then becomes an important focus, rather than just biblical hermeneutics and Exegesis.

   But this is where it gets tricky. Yes, there are some dangers inherent with their approach. At the same time, what’s the proper balance? Let’s take homosexuality as an example. The entire Bible teaches against it, but many Christians today (thankfully) are beginning to think that there’s nothing wrong with it. In such a situation, who’s right? The Bible, or our modern sensibilities?

   If we say that the Bible is wrong on that issue, what other areas might the Bible be wrong about? At a certain point, one starts to wonder if the Bible really has anything to do with the true God or not. When people think God is speaking to them, does he identify himself as the God of the Bible, or is that just something they assume based on their upbringing and culture?

   This is why I find it much easier to dismiss the Bible in its entirety. If God is powerful enough to create this entire universe, and he wanted to give us a written message, I trust that it would be of a much better quality than what the Bible is. So if there really is a God out there, I doubt he’s related in any way to Yahweh/Jehovah.

   I totally disagree with the church of Christ on just about everything. But their approach to Christianity (relying completely on the Bible) makes more sense to me than the approach of Christians who don’t think Biblical inerrancy is important. For those in the latter group, I just don’t see the point of calling their beliefs “Christianity.” Why not call it deism?

   Thanks again for offering your thoughts!

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5. It’s interesting. The more I think about the bible, it’s teachings, it’s story, it’s history, the less it makes sense as a moral or divine guide. I used to pray tirelessly that I would learn the truth and that i would see what’s really from god and what isn’t.

   More and more I began to see the problems with the bible – the errors, the inconsistencies, the flaws and the moral atrocities. As I’ve said here before, the biggest thing that did it for me, after seeing the a fore mentioned, was the realization that I had always and only taken “man’s” word on it. God never told me anything – never showed me anything. Where or what was my faith in? I realized it wasn’t in god and couldn’t have been.

   And if it really does all boil down to simply choosing what to believe, then how does Christianity become better than any other religion? You can look at it this way, or look at it that way, but I think if we were to really open our eyes, we’d see that approach is wishful thinking and that approach is “us” making it work by either dismissing or ignoring the problems.

   It becomes like sitting around a fire. When the wind changes and the smoke starts getting in our eyes, we move around the fire out of the smoke. When the wind changes again, we have to move again. When many people see problems in their religion, instead of saying it’s a problem, they shift their view so that the problem is no longer in view, but eventually another problem will become visible, and they’ll simply shift their view again, and the cycle will go on forever… No matter how you look at the bible, problems will arise, and no matter how you try to solve the problem, it usually only creates more problems that will either have to be solved or ignored.

   It’s funny in a way because on one hand many christians speak about what makes sense, or “we know this is what it means because…” but then they’ll turn right around and criticize reason when it points to a religious flaw, or they’ll say the old, “we cant understand god because his ways are higher than our ways.” Well which is it? can we understand “his will” or cant we? The real question however, is why should we even think the bible is “His”?

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6. I figure that If God is a Person then this Person then He can relate to us.

   If God did become a man and express that if we seek we will find then if we continue to seek to follow God genuinely we will find God.

   If God really did express that those who ask will receive, and if God does go beyond the physical, and prayer is how we express ourselves to Him, then if we genuinely ask of God Himself we will receive genuine answers.

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7. * I figure that If God is a Person as a Person He can relate to us.

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8. If we say that the Bible is wrong on that issue, what other areas might the Bible be wrong about?

   Def see your point, this is someting that bugs me as well

   When people think God is speaking to them, does he identify himself as the God of the Bible, or is that just something they assume based on their upbringing and culture?

   I suppose that depends how He expresses Himself to us

   But if a spiritual reality does exist and the Bible points to it, then a genuine revelation and response from God would come from the spiritual, and not just the physical words of a book, although these words could be involved as well.

   Hi William 🙂

   there are lots of things that unsettle me in the Bible, and I still haven’t read all of it. If the Bible is the only point of communication provided by God then God doesn’t go beyond the Bible.

   If the account of the NT is the conclusion of God, instead of being the pointer to how to fellowship with God, then how is it relevent to us?

   But, if the NT is a pointer to God becoming man and to how to follow the teachings of this man. If God communicates to us beyond just the words of the Bible on paper, then there is still relevence to the bible, but the bible is then not the only way God communicates with humanity.

   Which I think is valid, since as far as I have read the bible clearly expresses that it is not the only way God expresses Himself to humanity.

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9. But if a spiritual reality does exist and the Bible points to it, then a genuine revelation and response from God would come from the spiritual, and not just the physical words of a book, although these words could be involved as well.

   But how can you know this without God telling you this directly? And if God does speak to people directly, and the Bible does have problems (which is evident), what’s the point of the Bible at all?

   I think trying to have it both ways is really just wishful thinking. Why would the supreme creator of the universe waste his time and ours with a flawed book when he can just speak to us directly? The fact that the Bible has flaws mean that you can never really be sure if what you’re reading in it is true. I just don’t see a being at God’s level operating in such a backward way. Doesn’t this say more about our reluctance to give up our cultural traditions than it does about the actual worth of the Bible? We want at least parts of it to be true, so we desperately try to find ways to hang onto it.

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10. I’m just thinking that because the Bible itself states that it is not the only way God expresses Himself to us, then doesn’t this make the bible a secondary source, since it is referring to a primary source, it doesn’t claim to be the primary source itself.

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11. But how can you know this without God telling you this directly? And if God does speak to people directly, and the Bible does have problems (which is evident), what’s the point of the Bible at all?

    I can see where you are coming from

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12. Too, some of this depends on what you understand the Bible to say. Some people believe it teaches that God no longer speaks to individuals directly anymore, now that we have the complete written word. There are some passages that seem to indicate that, and I’ll try to pull a list of them together.

    Still, it’s hard for me see the value of the Bible if we can’t completely trust it. And since God’s never spoken to me before, I have trouble finding a reason to believe any of it.

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13. Nate, do you mind If I could send you a question via email?

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14. Anytime! 🙂

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15. ok thanks, I think I’ve lost you email though

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16. Just sent you one.

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17. Thanks, just sent it through on your Public Email from your Gravatar

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18. William, I agree with nearly everything you said in your comment and I’d like to put a copy of it on my blog … with your permission.

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19. Thanks, nan, and you may do as you please.

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20. Pingback: Can You Trust the Bible? | Nan's Notebook

21. Hey Nate, I just wanted to say that this blog is really interesting. I daresay the best blog I’ve found yet dealing with religion, including mine. Write on. Good luck on your search for truth.

    “Fix your mind on Me, be devoted to Me, offer service to Me, bow down to Me, and you shall certainly reach Me. ” – Bhagavad Gita (18.64)

    Lux

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22. That’s a huge compliment, Lux! Thank you! And good luck to you as well. 🙂

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23. ” And if God does speak to people directly, and the Bible does have problems (which is evident), what’s the point of the Bible at all?”

    THAT’S WHAT I BEEN SAYIN MAN!

    BTW, how you been:)

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24. THAT’S WHAT I BEEN SAYIN MAN!

    lol! 😀

    I’m doing great — how about you? Great to hear from you again!

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