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1. Hi Nate, followed over from the Ark. Enjoying the blog!~

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2. Thanks Holly! I’ve enjoyed what I’ve seen of your blog too!

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3. JESUS (May he be blessed forever) IN CHRISTIANITY: Second member of Triune God, Son of first part of Triune God (Not son of son, Not son of holy spirit), and at the same time “fully” God in every respect, but died as ordinary mortal man since God cannot die.
   JESUS (May he be blessed forever) IN ISLAM: A very elect and highly esteemed messenger of God with miracles. No Muslim is a Muslim if he does not believe this.
   Al Quran: Surah/Chapter 005 – Al-Mâ’idah. Verse 75.
   The Messiah, son of Mary (Jesus), was no other than a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) had passed away before him. And his mother (Mary) was a saintly woman. And they both used to eat (earthly) food. See how we make the revelations clear for them, and see how they are turned away!

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4. Hi Mushtaq,
   Thanks for your comment. I know much more about Christianity than I do Islam, so I can’t offer much in the way of conversation when it comes to Islam. What I do know of it, I don’t find very believable, but I do have a relatively high opinion of Muhammad. Out of curiosity, where do you stand on religious diversity? As I understand it, though Muhammad believed Allah was the only true God, he also believed that people should be free to make up their own minds: “To me my god, and to you, yours.”

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5. Arkenaten sent me! I’m actually a non-believer that somewhat recently dove into learning about Christianity due to many negative experiences with Christians through my life. I had attended Sunday school as a child so I had a foundation of what I thought Christian morality was all about – Love you neighbour as yourself, do to others as you’d have them do to you. It perplexed me how the ‘Christians’ I encountered seemed so selfish in their actions when that seemed to go against the higher standards I wrongfully held Christians to.

   Anyways, at first glance, it looks like I’m going to enjoy the sort of stuff you are posting!

   And upon reading “What I have gained?”, your story goes to show how many Christians just don’t get the concept of God’s unconditional love. Jesus had no problem hanging out with anyone! It was only the people in control of society that seemed to have a problem with him. Anyways, I see value in the Bible’s stories, but I look at it from a secular perspective, one that has had Arkenaten seriously question what it is I really believe!

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6. Ark’s been kind to me — he always sends over the nicest people!

   Thanks for coming to check out my blog, and I hope you’ll feel free to comment any time. I think your attitude toward the Bible is the absolute healthiest way to look at it. When I learn about pagan myths, I don’t get angry or defensive — I should be able to look at the Bible in the same way, but I’m not quite there yet. 😉 It will be nice to have your perspective!

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7. Pingback: Where’s Waldo? Or, Finding Nemo. Or, the search for the historical Jesus. « Elucidations on Atheism

8. Hi Nate,

   Hope you are going well,

   I have two questions for you that I’ve been thinking about lately,

   1. When you were a Christian, over that time were there moments that you felt you were interacting with God, or were convicted by God?

   2. And if so, how do you know that you are now not just rationalising away those interactions by (a) viewing experiences through the premise that there probably is no God, and then (b) looking for justifications for this premise?

   Hope these questions aren’t offensive, you do give me the impression that you do consider beliefs carefully 🙂

   Thanks

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9. Portal, I am obviously not nate, but I thought you asked good questions. I was looking forward to seeing nate’s response, but I found myself really thinking about what you asked, so I hope you don’t mind me offering something in response.

   #1. For me, yes. There were times that I though god and I were connected. That he heard my payers and that he blessed me in various ways. But to be clear, I never felt like he actually spoke to me, as I speak with others. I never felt like he spoke to me in dreams or visions. I had always believed that god spoke to us through the bible, but interacted with us through prayer and prayer responses, blessings, and providence.
   I felt like he knew me and that I was trying to know him.

   #2. After leaving the faith and religion, I do not feel like I am rationalizing those experiences away. In fact, my departure was partly because I realized that I was “rationalizing” the relationship with god in the first place. It was imaginary. I prayed. I spoke, but no one spoke back. The prayer “answers” were usually delivered by people or natural events. While god could have been behind it, I couldn’t really see his finger prints on it anymore than yoda’s or big birds (not trying to be derogatory, juts illustrative).
   In my interactions with real people, there is no wondering if they’re there. There’s no guessing. And the faith required to trust and interact with these people isn’t faith in their existence, but more of a faith in their character. We can actually interact, not just in the mind or through hope, but literal interaction.
   Does that answer your question?

   What exactly do you mean by “interacting with God, or were convicted by God”… can you give an example?

   Do you feel like those interactions are authentic? As in, do they more resemble interactions with other people or interactions one might have with an imaginary friend?

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10. And I do appreciate that similar questions could also be asked to a person who believes in a god.

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11. Hi William,

    thanks for your thoughtful response,

    By interaction or/and conviction I was referring to specific moments when a person feels they have a connection with God.

    For example,

    1. A of feeling immense and profound peace whilst in prayer with God, and expressing your praise and thoughts to God.

    2. Feeling that God is encouraging you to do or express something, and maybe also later thinking that these profound thoughts are thoughts that you yourself would not normally think.

    I really want to answer your questions and provide some specific examples, but I would like to spend a bit of time thinking about them first. Its pretty late here. I’ll reply with hopefully a more complete response tomorrow.

    Kind regards 🙂

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12. Hi Portal. Thanks, and there’s no timeline on a response. take as long as you like, and thanks for letting me jump in to you conversation with nate.

    to your clarifications above:

    #1. I have felt that when I was a believer and do also now when in meditation.
    #2. No, I guess I have never experienced that. I never felt like my thoughts or actions were being influenced out right, but i guess I used to think that god made certain paths more clear through opportunities, etc. if that makes sense.

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13. I will include one specific example tonight that was on my mind –

    I have asked God for peace before whilst in prayer, and then I’ve found that a real sense of wholeness and peace has come over me,

    peace which really I haven’t felt before except in certain times of prayer, and I can’t really compare this peace to any other expereinces or other types of peace I have felt in other aspects of my life.

    Hope that gives some clarification 🙂

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14. Experiences*

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15. “but i guess I used to think that god made certain paths more clear through opportunities, etc. if that makes sense.”

    Yeah, I can relate to that I think

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16. A friend of mine once said to me that one way he knows that God is interacting with him is when he has thoughts that he believes he could not have come up with himself, he says that he is not that “smart”. I think this is quite a humble position to take, this topic just reminded me of that.

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17. @ Portal.

    Similar feelings of peace etc are experienced by many people simply by meditating.
    Seriously, may I ask, what is your motivation for posing the initial questions, to Nate?

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18. Hi Ark,
    The questions are open to everyone,

    One of the main reasons I specifically asked Nate was that at one point in this thread he said this:

    “Some people believe it teaches that God no longer speaks to individuals directly anymore, now that we have the complete written word”

    The COC that Nate was a part of seems to teach (and please correct me if I’m wrong) that:

    1. God communicating directly to people is no longer available to us, and it has been this way before we were born.

    2. The bible is a closed book, and considered the end of revelation or interaction with God, at least in this age.

    Granted these assumptions are defended within the church, but what if they are wrong? These assumptions would seem to shape everything else that would follow from a worldview.

    If Nate has been taught these starting premises while growing up, what other conclusions could he have come to?

    Given that these premises, coupled with the belief that the bible has errors, would lead to cognitive dissonance?

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19. I wasn’t meaning to pick on you Nate btw, sorry if it came off like that.

    I’m not suggesting that you haven’t considered these things, I know I’ve personally have assumptions and habits I’ve grown up with.

    For example when praying I feel an impulse to offer God a “swap” for a prayer request. For example, I might think “Please help this person or save this person, or help me and….I’ll do this for you, or you can have this…although I don’t always mean it. This also makes no rational sense if you believe grace is free. But I digress.

    Anyway, hope the posts above make sense.

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20. Well the same could be said of any biblical interpretation from any christian perspective, surely?

    For instance, it’s accepted by pretty much all recognised archaeologists, many Rabbis and even a few some christian scholars that the Exodus never happened and Moses was a fictional character, yet Jesus refers to him by name.

    Now, if you’re going to develop cognitive dissonance this must be one of the biggies.
    Merely considering the implications is staggering. And maybe this is why the Moses and Exodus story is not (yet) widely publicised or shouted about from the pulpit?

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21. Hi Ryan (portal), sorry it took me a while to reply.

    My answers to your questions are much the same as William’s. When I was a believer, I had no doubts that God was there and that he was listening to my prayers, watching my actions, reading my thoughts, etc. It’s true that I did not believe he would talk directly to me, as I believed the Bible taught he no longer did that. Instead, I believed he communicated to me through the Bible, and that the Holy Spirit helped me understand what I was reading in some way (I had no idea how that worked).

    There were times that I felt relief through prayer, and there were other times that I felt immense pressure whenever I did something I knew was wrong (we could also call that “guilt”). I never had an experience where I thought God was communicating to me directly.

    Now that I no longer believe, I think all the feelings I experienced as a believer were just that — feelings. I don’t think they were pushed onto me by another being; I think they were drawn out by circumstance, much as a sad movie might make you cry.

    The points you made about the CoC do fit with what I believed. Here’s what you said:

    The COC that Nate was a part of seems to teach (and please correct me if I’m wrong) that:

    1. God communicating directly to people is no longer available to us, and it has been this way before we were born.

    2. The bible is a closed book, and considered the end of revelation or interaction with God, at least in this age.

    Granted these assumptions are defended within the church, but what if they are wrong? These assumptions would seem to shape everything else that would follow from a worldview.

    If Nate has been taught these starting premises while growing up, what other conclusions could he have come to?

    Your final question is a good one. But let’s say for a moment that God exists, and my starting premises about him were wrong. Let’s say that God does still speak with, or at least interact with people in some way today. Why would my preconceptions about him keep him from acting how he chooses? According to the NT, Paul believed that Christianity was a false religion, until Jesus appeared to him and set him straight. Cornelius was a devout proselyte and didn’t realize that he needed to do more, until God sent Peter to show him otherwise with miraculous signs. The same could be said for Abraham, Moses, Balaam, Gideon, etc. God never let people’s misconceptions about him stop him from doing what he wanted.

    So to bring it back around to your questions, if people who don’t believe God will talk to them never hear from him, and people who do think God will speak to them do hear from him, does it seem more or less likely that God is really there? And if he really is there and wants to have a relationship with us, why do we have such a hard time distinguishing between what he says and our own thoughts?

    I hope that last paragraph doesn’t sound harsh or defensive — that’s not how I mean it. I’m just trying to demonstrate the thought process I’ve had as I think about these things. I think your questions (and the reasons you have for asking them) are great and make complete sense.

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22. Hi Nate,

    I appreciate you taking the time to write back

    One thing that struck me while reading your response was that almost – if not all – these men who God encountered were theists.

    1. Paul of Tarsus

    Paul was actively pursuing God when God encountered him on the road to Damascus.

    2. Abraham/ Abram

    I admit I don’t know whether Abram had a faith in God prior to his encounter. The OT does report that men called on the name of God in Genesis.

    But say even if Abraham didn’t believe or have a concept of God before his encounter, the OT does indicate that Abraham was considered righteous. Abraham was considered because he believed what God was going to reveal in His promise to him and Sarah, despite the unlikelihood and challenges of it.

    3. Cornelius the centurion

    Cornelius also believed in God, and was seeking Him when God encountered him. He is depicted in Acts 10 as a God-fearing man.

    Also, I noticed was that with all these men, God encountering them also had direct consequences. They were then given responsibilities. It wasn’t just validation, but a complete change in their purposes. The very encounter put these men on a completely different course. They were given instructions, not just validation.

    For some brief examples, an angel instructs Cornelius to send the men of his household to Joppa. Paul is prepared for ministry and Abraham is prepared to be the Father of Israel.

    Paul was given the responsibility to preach, minister and this also put him in the way of poverty, danger, insult, abuse and the sword. Although at the same time Paul was also given hope, salvation and the peace to live through and face any circumstance.

    Paul was given a lot, but also much was also required of him as a result.

    Thanks, Ryan

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23. On another note,

    I think I’ve mentioned this before but one of the main passages that makes me very uncomfortable in the bible is this:

    Luke 12:47-48

    And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

    But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_Faithful_Servant

    I sometimes wonder if I’m heaping up condemnation on myself the more I learn. It really bothers me, but at the same time I think it also indicates that those who knew less about Jesus (Muslims, Hindus) would be treated justly and would not be punished as much. This passage really one of the main ones that confronts me on whether I’m personally living the right way.

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24. I’ve also read that it Paraphrased in another way, that it emphasizes that privilege brings responsibility and that responsibility entails accountability.

    I think this really all depends on whether a person trusts that God will judge each individual person in a truly fair and just way, based on that persons internal workings and outward actions.

    We’re all intricately complicated. In order to Judge justly God would have to know every intension, action and value of a person in order to weigh justly. And then grace comes into it as well on account of Jesus. I think trusting Gods character in a large part shapes a person’s outlook on life.

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25. At the end of the day, I get from those very uncomfortable passages that there’s no point learning if you don’t practice what you learn. The unfaithful servant was punished because he didn’t follow what he knew to be true. Sorry for the long tangent, just wanted to clarify my thoughts.

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