Sorry, but I couldn’t help myself in posting (***There was an article linked here, but I decided to remove it, primarily because of the other content on the site and the poor title choice of the article***).
I want to point out that I don’t endorse this particular church, or their broader beliefs. However, I thought this article was pretty good and to the point. I think too many times people think they need to “help God out” by adding in some rules that he didn’t actually give us.
In reality, God gave us all the info we needed, and we don’t need to forget the condemnation Jesus brought against the Pharisees for “teaching as doctrines the commandments of men” (Matthew 15:9).
***EDIT***
Well, it’s October 4, about 5 months since I wrote this article. If you decide to read the comments, you can see that a lot has been discussed. I thought I’d write a follow-up in here, just in case someone reads this, but doesn’t take the time to read every comment.
If you fall into that group and skim through this thread without a thorough reading, please don’t rush to any conclusions about those who have posted. Several of us adjusted our responses somewhat by the end of the discussion. I, for one, came away from it with a more conservative view than the one I started with. In hindsight, I wish I had approached this topic in a better manner. My initial post here, and some of my first comments were way too casual and did not use enough scripture.
So if you decide to read through some of this thread, let me again ask that you not jump to any conclusions about the people who posted on here or their positions, unless you are willing to carefully read the entire discussion. I’ve decided to leave the post on here, in case it is helpful to someone at some point. I’ve tried to discourage any further comments on this thread, but if you feel the need to add something you can. I may or may not approve it.
Thanks.
Finding Truth 
Tadd, what is there to debate? You have criticized some here for not answering your questions, why then can you not answer mine? I am not looking for debate, but discussion on the subject as the Bible teaches it. I am always willing to study the Bible with anyone on any subject, and have submitted that I may have missed something, but no one can seem to show me what. I am truely seeking the truth. the answers and arguements that I have heard on this subject just dont always fall perfectly into the Bible pattern.
I’ve heard you preach before, (purhaps not on this subject), and you do well. I approached you for a study and am always willing to do so. I’m even willing to do so on this open forum, if you are indeed willing?
Am I asking for too much? Is asking for clear Bible passages for proof, too radical a request?
And if you cannot provide them then all I ask is to teach it the way the Lord revealed it. What about that do you want to debate?
I ask that definitions not be distorted and that passages are used correctly.
Are my questions not worth answering? Do you really think that I am not sincere?
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If anyone’s interested, I’ve posted an article that ties in pretty well with this discussion at this link. One of the things talked about in the article is how Christians should avoid alcohol, but I think the author handles it in a great way. To me, this is an example of how an argument can be made for not drinking without having to stretch any passages.
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Tadd,
I for one, believe I’ve already defended my position among other Christians. Furthermore, I’ve openly discussed this in adult Bible classes at the congregation I currently attend. I certainly don’t mind doing it in any other format as well, but I don’t know if a public debate is really the best way to handle it.
If nothing else, I think this discussion has proved that the subject of alcohol is a very volatile one that people sometimes feel strongly about. If having a public debate would really be beneficial, that’s fine. But I’m afraid it might be too easy for two Christians to lose their cool with one another, and I can’t see any good coming from that.
I do want to be clear though that I’m not at all ashamed of my position on this issue. And I think everyone else probably feels the same way. When I say that I don’t think we can scripturally condemn someone for having one drink, I mean just that. And I have no problem talking to anyone about it. I think it’s what the Bible teaches. That’s it. Why should I be ashamed of it?
The Bible is not my word, it’s not your word, it’s God’s word. Why don’t we just let it say what it says?
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Tadd,
While I can appreciate your zeal and desire to defend the truth, do you really think a public debate on this issue will be beneficial? What will be debated? No one is advocating drinking. I’m afraid that all that will be done is stir up trouble and dissention among brethren. Proverbs 6 tell us that God hates one who sows discord among brethren. Wouldn’t this subject, which isn’t really about drinking, but rather about handling the word of God correctly, be better handled through private or small discussions? I am not trying to be argumentative here, just trying to be careful that no damage be caused to anyone through the process.
I must say tadd, I have been somewhat surprised by the tone of your responses. I hope I haven’t offended you in some way. I only want to stand for the truth and use the scriptures to support what I say. I realize that perhaps I do not possess the knowledge and wisdom that you do, so I am certainly willing to continue to study the passages to try and gain a clearer understanding of the matter.
What passages do you speciffically use to support the statement that one taste of alcohol is a sin? It would help me greatly if you would supply me with that. I will honestly study it and try to understand it.
Thanks.
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Tadd,
One final thought. I offer this as something to consider. Do you believe you can say, with 100% certainty, that the apostles or our Lord never had any fermented grape juice pass through their lips? Think about the environment and preserving techniques that existed at the time. If they did, and one drink is a sin, then what conclusion can we draw? They sinned. I do not believe we can prove that they did or did not ever have a drink of fermented grape juice. Assumptions have to be made, wouldn’t you agree? Are you willing to condemn someone and make a matter of fellowship over an assumption? I think this is the crux of the whole matter. We can offer proof and agree that drinking is something a Christian should avoid. I am just not sure I can call something a sin that may have been done by Jesus. Maybe He never had a sip of anything with any alcoholic content, I’m just not sure how I can prove that.
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There is no way to distinguish tone over a written response. If my tone seemed harsh, I apologize. I have no emotional tie to this subject. Too me it is too plain to be emotional about.
If this is really an issue of handling God’s Word correctly then you have to identify me as one who is not. I would identify you as one who is not handling the scripture correctly and I have directed all the Christians I know to this discussion, so in a sense I have challenged your credibility publicly. I would also challenge your position in person and that is why I challenge you to have this same discussion with me among the brotherhood. I believe that your position is undefendable and that your position puts souls in jeopardy.
I already made it clear I would no longer discuss it in this way. I was not kidding when I said this is my last post on the subject. I don’t see the benefit of such a generic public discussion.
I think anyone who reads Mr. Crews’ article would believe that his argument is the same as mine. A Biblical warning should be considered a stopping point not a debating point. It should also be considered a condemning point, especially in light of passages like 1 Thess. 5:22 and Gal. 5 where activities that resembled the works of the flesh are condemned.
Our world has changed. Do you think Peter taught publicly against institutionalism? Did such an idea exist? Alcohol and it’s use in Bible times does not compare to the alcohol today and how it would be and is used today. If you disagree, I know several real scholars who would diagree with you and whose position you would have no credence to question. Maybe that is a better suggestion. We will find two experts who will discuss this question on our behalves with expert opinions and real historical knowledge. I do know that they were not ignorant of the science and process of fermentation and that they went to great lengths to be certain that intoxication did not happen. If you are more concerned about the historical possibility that alcohol was used by early Christians than the clear warnings against it’s use in the Bible I’m not the person to discuss this with. Those arguments mean nothing to me because I can not condone the use of alcohol on the grounds of worldliness.
If you want to debate publicly, let me know. Otherwise, I will not respond to this subject again in this way. I’m still willing to discuss it in person. I’m not angry, but I do not mince words.
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I believe that the tone of everyone’s responses is exactly why my husband, Tadd, wishes to debate the subject in a formal manner. I’m shocked and hurt at the backlash he received from suggesting this. Anyone that is familiar with a formal debate knows that a debate is a great way to see two sides to a proposition in an open forum. Please, acknowledge that it is now important to study this openly because the seed has been sown very publicly that drinking alcohol is not a sin in today’s society. I also suggest that this is a great danger. This question of what worldliness actually is surprises me greatly. Some of you who are questioning worldliness are the very people who I thought taught me what worldliness is and were great examples to me as an individual. Is not the “world” that is spoken of in Romans 12:2 speaking of a symbol of wickedness? This verse says we should NOT change ourselves to be like the people of the world, but to be changed within by a new way of thinking so that we will know what is good and what is perfect. In today’s society, I wouldn’t hesitate to say that most people of the world drink alcohol. This IS a worldly thing in today’s society. Even non-Christians see the evil in it. If Kendra is seen buying alcohol in a store or is walking down the street with a beer in hand, are assumptions made by that person that she’s going to get drunk? Absolutely. That’s how things are in today’s society, like it or not. I suggest that you think about how this makes the church look, how this makes the people we love look. I’m going to give you an example. I’m giving you this example because my father hesitates to come to the Lord’s church because of this very incident. My dad who is not a Christian, who drinks alcohol and can’t seem to get away from it, and who I’ve been trying to teach the word of God to for the past five years, is convinced that he saw a member of the Lord’s church come out of a liquor store. Naturally, I stand for that person and tell him he must be mistaken because that’s just crazy. But my dad is still convinced that it was that person and he tells me “How hypocritical, Kendra.” His conception of the Lord’s church has been tainted by the idea that this Christian is involved with alcohol at any level. He wonders how we as Christians can say we’re trying to be Christ-like when we have some of our number dealing with such worldly vices. He has not been back to worship. He as a non-Christian sees the evil and worldliness in alcohol in our society. Why can’t Christians?
I really don’t think I need to review these principals. But I do think it’s very important for you to understand that the internet is not a good way to study this subject. Do you know exactly how many people are reading this page? Is my daddy reading this page? Is a Christian who may have struggled with alcohol consumption reading this? Do you know? I as well as countless other Christians absolutely think it’s sinful and worldly for these people to take one drink. Sadly, I’m afraid stumbling blocks for these people may have been hurled. My husband responded to the comments on this page out of GREAT LOVE and GREAT CONCERN. Anyone who really knows him knows that fact. Trouble and dissension was mentioned. Do you see this internet conversation leading to anything else? Shots have now been taken, people. Tadd has been accused of being argumentative, of not being concerned but just wanting to win a debate, of criticizing and that hurts me not just because I’m his wife, but because he is my brother in Christ. Christians do not treat each other like that. My husband took the initiative to ask for a debate out of love. He’s worried about who may have read this as well as I am. We would be more than willing to have a private study on this subject, but what about this public teaching here? How is that to be handled? The best conclusion we could think of is a public debate. He didn’t just get the crazy idea for a debate and tell you about it. Tadd went to others for advice and wisdom. These older people agreed that this sounded like a great way to study the subject in an orderly public manner, since public teaching had already been done. Debates are done on a consistent basis and they’re done only for good.
With much love and concern-Kendra
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Tadd, Kendra,
If I misunderstood any of Tadd’s comments, I apologize. I’ve always had nothing but love and respect for the both of you, and that’s what I continue to have.
Here’s where I think we are on this issue:
Public Debate
In a sense, I think this blog outlet serves as a public debate. The benefit of it is we can all take time to reason out our responses, it’s more difficult to mis-speak or say anything rash, and many people can partake in it, instead of the typical setting where 2 individuals go back and forth.
Tadd, if you’re willing to debate it publically, I’m not sure why you don’t want to continue doing it online where those who are interested can see it and weigh in, if they choose. I respect your decision, and it doesn’t bother me… I’m just not sure what the difference is, only this venue is a little less formal.
For the other Christians that you’ve mentioned this site to, I hope they’ll feel free to add their comments as well. I would prefer to keep this discussion right here. But if there really is a lot of interest in a public debate (aside from this one), I’m willing to consider it.
The Issue
I also wanted to clarify something about this issue. Alchohol is not something that I think a Christian should partake of. I think the reasons that Kendra gave, primarily our example, illustrate why we should avoid it. But alchohol is only a tiny part of the real issue, a symptom of it, if you will.
I think the real issue is about having scriptural support for everything we teach, which includes the things we condemn. As you all know, I believe the Bible teaches that baptism is essential for salvation (if you disagree, feel free to let me know, but please do it here, where we already have a lengthy discussion running). So if I hear someone explain away Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, etc, to say that baptism’s not necessary, then I consider that a misuse of scripture.
That’s the danger I think we face with this issue. I know of Christians that this has affected. They’ve heard a sermon where the preacher tries to condemn any amount of alchohol, and it bothers them. They feel the preacher is misusing passages to apply the same condemnation the Bible gives toward drunkenness to any alchohol consumption at all. It’s a consistency issue. How can we complain about someone twisting passages to say faith only saves, when we twist passages to make a point about something else?
And I understand that some Christians believe the Bible teaches any consumption of alchohol is wrong. But you also need to understand that there are other Christians who are just as mature and knowledgeable who don’t think the Bible teaches that. According to Romans 14, we are to bear with one another in these things. That doesn’t mean we can’t discuss it (as we are doing here), but we need to understand that people may fall on different sides of this issue.
One Other Thing
Kendra, I’m sorry to hear about the issue with your father. Let me offer you a few thoughts on the subject.
First of all, hypocrites can unfortunately be found anywhere. That shouldn’t be something that we let keep us from doing what’s right (which I know you’re aware of, and he probably is too). Secondly, if your father had heard teaching that condemned drunkenness and advocated abstaining (instead of condemning both things), then this might not have become such a stumbling block for him, and he may not have viewed the other person’s behavior as hypocritical.
To Summarize…
I hope my points have been clear. It is certainly not my intent to offend anyone in this issue, but according to the studying I’ve done, I believe my position is in accordance with the scriptures. That being the case, I’m not ashamed of my beliefs, or of sharing them with anyone. I think it’s prudent for Christians to stay away from alchohol, and it’s outright wrong to be drunk or be involved in anything that would represent a drinking party, banqueting, revelry, etc. I can confidently say those things because there are passages that teach that. But anything beyond those issues, I have to leave up to God.
I hope that makes sense. If not, please let me know, and I’ll do my best to correct it.
In nothing but humble love,
Nathan
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A few quick comments. I am sorry if any feelings have been hurt here, that was never the intention. Its always best to try and be as thick skinned as possible on the internet, tone is hard to catch in written word.
On to the subject of worldly people’s perception of alcohol. I think you are really off Kendra on people’s perception of alcohol. As the one here who (and believe me this isn’t something I’m proud of) has probably spent more time ‘in the world’ and doing ‘worldly things’ let me tell you that 99% of ‘worldly people’ don’t view having a drink as evil. No adult would assume that someone having one drink is automatically a drunk and about to get boozed out. Sadly it’s normally the people in the Church that jump to these negative conclusions. Reminds me of the Pharisees that were quick to call Jesus a drunkard.
(luke 7 33-35. Matt 11:18-19, Mark 2:15-17,Matt 9:10-13, Luke5:29-32)
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I would also suggest against relying on other experts to argue a biblical prinicple for us. Doing that is what keep me under the belief that baptism wasn’t required for salvation, once saved always saved and a host of other false beliefs. I believe we should study the word closer together and learn from it. Speaking where the Bible speaks and being silent where it is one of the challanges we must hold dear to.
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Tadd & Kendra,
I apologize to you both for offending you. Obviously, there are differences of opinion on this and many other bible subjects. If ANYONE THINKS I AM CONDONING THE DRINKING OF ALCOHOL, LET ME SAY EMPHATICALLY I AM NOT. My point has been all along that we should take care and use the scriptures to say what they say. I believe Bro. Crews article does this very nicely, and I amen that.
Having said that, I apologize for having left any poor impressions or of accusing anyone of anything they haven’t done. Please accept my humble apology and consider that I was not trying to create any hurt feelings.
I do not want to cause anyone to stumble, so I also apologize for anything I have stated, whether written or otherwise, that might cause someone to think I approve of drinking or condone the practice. I do not.
As far as how we arrive at the conclusion that christians should not drink, let me just say I will bow to your wisdom, knowledge, and understanding of this issue and will try to continue to study and understand this in accordance with the scriptures.
Please forgive me, and understand that no harm is meant.
In love,
Jim
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Tadd,
If you truly believe that widening of this discussion into a formal public debate would be helpful, I respectfully disagree. If the limited discussion here can produce the type of comments it has here, then will it improve the situation to broaden this from an open discussion to one where sides are taken and lines drawn? I would ask that we all back down and cool of and perhaps meet privately at sme point to discuss this further, if necessary.
Kendra makes some good points as it relates to the discussion here. I think I can speak for everyone (a big assumption, i know) when I say that no one wants to cause anyone to stumble. I believe we are all trying to grow in knowledge and understanding in the scriptures.
Call me sometime and we can discuss this further if you like. Even though I may presently disagree with you, I have not and am not now accusing you of sin. I think much of our disagreement is one of opinion, and as such should not be the basis of accusation and hard feelings.
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Well I have some thoughts that haven’t really been touched on. I believe there is enough scriptural evidence to support that Jesus and his disciples drank fermented wine at one time or another.
Lets start off with His first public miracle, turning water into wine at a feast for a wedding. Taking a look at John 2: 1-11 we see Jesus at a wedding where they run out of wine. This is a bad deal that can reflect poorly on the one throwing the party. Jesus’ mother pleads with him to turn the water into wine; Christ first resists, but eventually gives in and performs our first recorded miracle of His ministry. (as a quick side note, some see this as fulfillment of OT prophesies about the abundance of wine that there will be in the times of the Messiah, Amos 9:13-14, Genesis 49:10-11) Jesus instructs the servants to take the wine He just made to the master of the feast. The MOTF tastes it, and not knowing where it came from gives the bridegroom a pat on the back for not holding back on ‘the good stuff’. Basically it was custom to serve your best, fermented wine first. Then as your guests’ taste buds had numbed a bit slip in the ‘cheap stuff’ not as good tasting wine’
How can we condemn taking a drink if our Lord and Savior turned water into fermented wine for a wedding party to drink?
Secondly Christ was harshly critized throughout his ministry for eating and drinking with sinners. Luke 7:33-35 (New King James Version)
33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon.’ 34 The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ 35 But wisdom is justified by all her children.”
Look up ‘winebibber’ its like calling someone a drunk. You don’t call a kid drinking grape juice a drunk. Plain and simple you don’t call someone a drunk unless they have drank an intoxicating beverage. It just doesn’t make sense any other way. It would be akin to making fun of a vegetarian saying they ate too much steak.
Mark 2:15-17 (New King James Version)
15 Now it happened, as He was dining in Levi’s house, that many tax collectors and sinners also sat together with Jesus and His disciples; for there were many, and they followed Him. 16 And when the scribes and[a] Pharisees saw Him eating with the tax collectors and sinners, they said to His disciples, “How is it that He eats and drinks with tax collectors and sinners?”
17 When Jesus heard it, He said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”
Ok here again we have Jesus eating a drinking with ‘sinners’. What do you imagine sinners of that day and time would eat and drink? Probably unclean food, and fermented wine. Why else would the Pharisees have reason to give them a hard time, the focus of their critizism was on the eating and drinking, not on the association. I admit this is an assumption on my part. There is no way to prove it, yet I think it’s a safe one. This same thought is repeated in Luke 5:30 and other gospel accounts.
I understand the arguments behind the statement “Its best for a Christian to not drink” However I believe we are speaking where the Bible doesn’t if we are to say “having a drink is a sin”
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I want to add that the person nate reffered to, that had issue with the way this was presented as not being consistant, does not drink, nor has he ever.
Tadd, if I owe you or anyone else an apology, then I am sorry. I certainly have not intended to offend, place a stumbling block, or to give the idea that drinking is ok. I love you and think well of you, But I dont see where discussion in open, where we actually have the time and ability to engage in discussion. If I make poor or false arguements, then poke holes in them. I want to know the truth as the Bible defines it.
Tell me here, by phone, or in front of others where I have miss-used scripture. I will gladly and would rather be able to point to verse and tell others that the Bible condemns here.
As I said, I am always willing to study the Bible on any matter. This forum is a more expediant way to do so for me. I wish I had more time. I am sure others wish they had the time to drive to another state and debate this, but as you already pointed out this is a public debate here. I’d rather view it as a discussion. I would have called you last night but I got in late, I would call you now but youre at work. I am not sure why youre against this means of discussion.
We must speak where the Bible speaks and stay silent where the Bible is silent. We must say Bible things in Bible ways. this is the thesis of my arguement. Why would any disagree?
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i’m still having trouble with spelling
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Does anyone here think that God would refer to His Son as unwise?
Proverbs 20:1 says that “Wine is a mocker; strong drink is a brawler. And whosoever errs thereby is not wise.”
Another phrase for the “unwise” is the fool, and the Bible has lots to say about him. Notice a couple of instances:
“The fool has said in his heart, there is no God.” Ps. 14:1
“A fool has no delight in understanding, but only that his heart may reveal itself.” Pro.18:2
“It is an honor for a man to keep aloof from strife, but every fool will be quarrelling.” Pro. 20:3
Notice that every time a fool is mentioned, it’s tied to a sin. In these examples, it would be disbelief, no care for the knowledge of God, and being quarrelsome. Why should we think God would see the fool mentioned in Prov. 20:1 as any different?
God in His wisdom plainly says that those who err through wine are foolish. He does not say “Wine in heavy doses is a mocker”; He simply says “Wine is a mocker.” And the wisdom literature calls me a fool for erring by it. Is there any time when being seen as foolish by God is a good thing?
And if we all believe that the Bible does not contradict itself, then we have to explain something: a number of you have made the statement that Jesus likely drank. If He did, then He directly partook in something His Father called unwise – and thereby acted foolishly.
Are we really willing to say that?
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Consider 1 Thess. 5:6-8:
Therefore let us not sleep, as [do] others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
Here is the Vine’s entry for the English word “sober” in this passage: signifies “to be free from the influence of intoxicants;” in the NT, metaphorically, it does not in itself imply watchfulness, but is used in association with it, 1Th 5:6,8; 2Ti 4:5; 1Pe 1:13; 4:7, RV (AV, “watch”); 5:8. Cp. eknepho and ananepho, under AWAKE, No. 3 and Note.
This is the same word translated sober in 1 Pet. 4:7 after Peter described abuses of alcohol in verse 3. Is “free from the influence of intoxicants” simply someone who is “not drunk?”
Is he not referring to alcohol use? The context says, yes.
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Scriptures definitely to consider and think about…
Proverbs 20:1 says “whosoever errs thereby is unwise”.
Doesn’t say a drink of alcohol is wrong; I see this as someone who is consumed, drawn away, becomes dependent, or uses it in excess as “erring”.
I have a question: what do you think the Bible means when it says that Jesus turned water to wine, or when someone called Him a winebibber, or when they accused Peter on the day of Pentecost of being drunk and he stated that it was too early in the day, not that drinking any alcohol was a sin and how could they even associate him with such?
Or Romans 14 – as stated previously, if this was grape juice I don’t believe anyone would be offended by it, it wouldn’t be an issue. Because of that I think Jesus turning water to wine is truly wine, just as it says and therefore the drinking of it is an issue of personal judgement. I am NOT talking about drunkenness, revelries and banquetings as these are specifically condemned in God’s Word (scriptures given in previous posts).
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Great comments. Lance, welcome to the discussion. I think you and Tadd bring up some great points, and I’ll study over them. I do have a few preliminary thoughts on them though:
I agree with Lauren’s point that the passage in Proverbs talks about erring in wine, which could indicate that there’s an appropriate way to use it. Also, the definition from Vine’s talks about being under the influence of intoxicants, which would mirror drunkenness. Being sober is being free of that influence.
Something else to consider is that pretty much any sin you can think of is an abuse of something. There’s nothing wrong with sexual intimacy as long as its in the confines of a scriptural marriage, but sexual activity outside of that is wrong. There’s nothing wrong with eating, but gluttony is wrong. There’s nothing wrong with enjoying the “fruit of our labor,” but greed is wrong. I think that’s something to consider when dealing with this subject.
Also, I wanted to touch on one of the things Matt mentioned in his last post: Matt, I think you made some good points, but I have to disagree with you on assuming that Christ would have eaten some unclean foods. At the time, the Old Law was still in effect, and it would have been a sin for Christ to partake of that, as far as I understand it. We know Christ didn’t sin, so I don’t think he would have been involved in that. I know that was just a minor point in what you were saying, but I thought it should probably be mentioned.
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Tadd and Lance, you both make excellent points and I will look into them further.
I also, cannot see Christ ever being considered a fool.
I want to make clear, again, that I believe a Christian should stay away from alcohol. You both make very good points to affirm that.
This, unfortunately, will be my last post on this topic. I will remain willing to study any topic with anyone.
I want to resubmitt that the christian would avoid alcohol out of a desire to avoid every appearence of evil, and because it is certainly a stumbling block to many (in or out of the church). Drinking can undeniably lead to drunkeness, and as Tadd pointed out, we are to be sober. Is there a more perfect way to be sober that to avoid alcohol? Lance pointed out that it is foolish. Why would any Christian want to drink in light of that?
I am not the most educated, nor the most wise indovidual. I try to grow in both, but understand that it is very possible for me to be incorrect.
Being incorrect on Biblical matters would be very serious. And that is why I have encouraged presenting this subject, or any Biblical subject, in Bible ways. That is all.
There are some who would say that I have miss-used the scripture, that is certainly not my intention. Show me which ones and I’ll repent of it. I would like to discuss with Tadd and Lance in further detail their comments, if they would like.
Bible discussion is good and must be done so with the intent to learn as much as teach. We should be ready to hear other opinions and weigh them against our own and more importantly, what the Bible says on the matter. If ever someone no longer wanted to study the Bible, then there is a problem. I’ll say again, if anyone disagrees with me then contact me, I’ll gladly discuss it and study with whom ever. Nate has my contact information if you do not already.
Matt, I dont believe that you can prove that the drinking of alcohol was done by either Jesus or the apostles. There does seem to be evidence, I’ll allow, but no proof. I admitt, for the last time here, that I still question the ability to say alcohol outside of drunkeness, is sin. I do not question, however, that a christion should stay away from it. I have questions still on the comments of Tdd and Lance. They were still good solid Bible points. I’ll always do my best to stand by that. Sorry for any offence to anyone. It was always my intention to study and come to a better understanding.
If I was wrong, take hope in knowing that I am only looking for the Truth, and have no agenda on this subject. None. “Seek and ye shall find.” Those who seek the truth will find it, I take comfort in that.
I love you all, and regret any ill that may have come of what I have said.
I know we all can agree on speaking where the Bible speaks…
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Let me join the discussion by first stating that i feel as if I’m in the Twilight Zone. I find a page entitled “Finding Truth” and then see teaching after teaching in which drinking is treated as a matter of choice.
Thankfully, it seems that all agree that drunkeness is condemned by God (Gal. 5:19-21), is a matter of disfellowship (I Cor. 5:11), and in many passages, both in the Old and New Testaments, is forbidden by God.
Now…..a couple of Bible principles concerning the idea of drinking at all.
First of all, Christians are taught in I Thes. 5:9-11 (as well as other places) that we are to edify each other. Not a suggestion but a command. I ask in all sincerity—can you “build me up” with a Miller in your hand? How about a Bloody Mary? My son was baptized roughly 5 mo. ago. It is not the drunk on the street corner that I am worried will influence him. It is the “Christian” who claims to love God but makes decisions and takes actions that are no different from wordly minded people. Can you edify a Christian while sipping on a mixed drink? Makes no difference if it is one drink or 25, have you built me up? Edified me? I honestly cannot imagine a person who has truly converted to our Lord who would suggest that they could.
Secondly, there is the well known passage describing our bodies as God’s temple (I Cor. 6:19-20). What principles are there? It teaches that God dwells in the Christian. Will He “share occupancy” with tequila? Vodka? How about “one” Bud Light? In all seriousness—how does that sound? it teaches that we are to “glorify God in our body”. How much glorifying can I do when others see me with something in my hand that has caused so much damage to families, health, reputations, etc.
Next, in II Cor. 3:1-3, we are described as the world’s Bible. Paul taught that he didn’t need to commend himself, nor did he need letters of recommendation from others. Instead, he teaches that the Christian’s conduct, character, influence, etc. is sufficient to show who/what we are. Do you believe that I (like Paul and the Corinthians) can be “declared to be the epistle of Christ…with the Spirit of the living God” with a Black Russian in my hand? Even if it is “just one”? In verse 2 Paul said we are “read by all”. What exactly are they reading? Judge for yourself—–Does drinking (even one) increase your influence for God? make you more effective as an example? To the truly converted, the answer is no.
I Jn. 3:4 teaches nothing if it does not teach that there are no degrees of sin. “Sin is Lawlessness.” It is either sin or it is not. There is no “responsible sinning” or “moderate sinning”. It is no more possible to be a responsible drinker than it is to be a responsible adulterer. No more possible to be a moderate drinker than a moderate fornicator. Does the idea of “social drinking” also apply to “social lieing”? Light or darkness anyone?
Ultimately, a figure has to be placed on “how much is acceptable”. When is it conceeded that you’ve “crossed the line”? At .08? At .06? How many is not too many? There has to be an answer to that. Or can we all just come to our own decisions on it? One is o.k. but 3 is sinful (depending on how much you weigh ofcourse)? I’m being ridiculous on purpose. The point is that God isn’t worried about a blood-alcohol number—–He is concerned about our spirit!
It may be that some are looking for a passage that says “thou shalt not drink at all”. (are you also looking for passages such a “thou shalt not smoke marijuana’?). The page is called Finding Truth—-when looking at the principles above (there are others but it is late) concerning our responsibility to build each other up, recognize the fact that God dwells within us, recognize the fact that others are watching us, recognizing the fact that we are to walk in light (not gray), etc. it is very strange indeed to publicly teach that God doesn’t care about whether we have “one drink”. I have found something allright, but it is not truth.
Some may hold to this position while never actually drinking themselves. Understand that there is no distinction. It matters not that someone is not an adulterer themself, if they teach that adultery is not sinful they are still accountable to those who accept their teaching and engage in it. This topic is no different. One of us is wrong. one of us is a false teacher. It is utterly impossible for us both to be right. And yet this is considered by some to be a ‘matter of opinion”? I don’t consider it an opinion to feel that it is possible for many to be led away into great sin by being encouraged by the teaching that drinking is righteous (“as long as you’re not drunk”). Righteous? Really?
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Billy,
I certaunly agree with your comments. However, I don’t think the majority of commenters here are saying drinking is righteous, nor are they advocating drinking. In fact, most of the commenters seem to be saying that a christian shouldn’t drink for the same reasons you have listed. What has seemed to be intended as an open discussion has also seemed to turn into something else. I think a lot of misunderstanding and emotion has entered in and clouded the discussion. I hope and pray that all can agree to study this issue and hold to the biblical principles taught in the new testament. I know I certainly am not encouraging anyone to drink or to sin, and have always advocated that the scripture condemns social drinking and drunkeness.
Thank you for your comments and reasonableness.
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Nate,
While I will 100% agree with you that our savior commited no sin, let’s look at a few things. I think Its kinda like the theif on the cross, where he was still under the old law as Christ was yet to die and resurect, but Jesus had the athority to forgive sins. Likewis I believe He had the authority to circumvent OT laws and traditions. Remember Jesus and His disciples were chatized for breaking OT Laws/Traditions:
Matt. 15:1-3 Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat!” Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?
Luke 6:1-11
1One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and his disciples began to pick some heads of grain, rub them in their hands and eat the kernels. 2Some of the Pharisees asked, “Why are you doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?”
3Jesus answered them, “Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4He entered the house of God, and taking the consecrated bread, he ate what is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions.” 5Then Jesus said to them, “The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
6On another Sabbath he went into the synagogue and was teaching, and a man was there whose right hand was shriveled. 7The Pharisees and the teachers of the law were looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, so they watched him closely to see if he would heal on the Sabbath. 8But Jesus knew what they were thinking and said to the man with the shriveled hand, “Get up and stand in front of everyone.” So he got up and stood there.
9Then Jesus said to them, “I ask you, which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to destroy it?”
10He looked around at them all, and then said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” He did so, and his hand was completely restored. 11But they were furious and began to discuss with one another what they might do to Jesus.
Passages like that are what lead me to believe that Jesus would have ate what the Sinners were eating. Still an assumption on my part, he might not have, or what they were eating might not have been unclean no way to be sure. And bottom line, whatever He did it wasn’t sinful
However I think I gave good scriptural and logical evidence to arrive at the conclussion that one, the water He turned into wine was fermented wine, and two He drank fermented wine at some point in time. Nobody has really touched on those just yet.
Again, I’m now not advocating everyone go out and drink. I understand the arguements for a christian not to drink. However I do believe we are speaking where the Bible doesn’t when we say any drink at all is a sin, and I believe we are lying to ourselves to think Christ didn’t have any fermented wine.
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Matt-
There is no proof that the “wine” at the marriage feast in Cana was fermented. The Greek word for “wine” in this text is oinos, which may refer to a fermented beverage (Eph. 5:18), or it may denote freshly squeezed grape juice (Isa. 16:10).
Since the word for “wine” is generic, we cannot import the concept of an alcoholic beverage into this passage without contextual justification—of which there is none.
Moreover, what may be “social consumption” in our day, says nothing about the practice of the first century. The juice of the grape was a common drink in that land of many vineyards.
Finally, the fact that the ruler of the feast could still distinguish the quality of the latter beverage from the former, suggests that his senses were not dull as a result of previous drinking.
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I know that ‘oinos’ is used for both fermented win such as in Gen 9: 21,24, 19:32-35 or in Lev 23:13 I
It would be a bit easier if we had a hebrew traslation. As we have the hebrew word ‘yayin’ for wine and ‘shekar’ for strong intoxicating drink.
The word ‘oinos’ used in Gen 9:21,24 concerning Noah getting drunk is ‘yayin’ in the hebrew. Which leads to the conclusion that when either is used it can be ment for intoxicating or grape juice. We really need the ‘shekar’ to be sure they mean strong drink. Of note is that ‘yayin’ is from an unused root word meaning effervesce or to bubble up. It is translated as wine, banqueting and winebibbers.
What I’m trying to get at with all the sematics is that we are left to go off of context clues.
Notice it says in vs10 Every man at the beginning sets out the good wine,
The ‘good’ ‘wine’ here is kalos oinos in the greek. the kalos means: precious, affecting the mind agreeably, comforting and confirming. What I labeled ‘the good stuff’
Now in the next part of verse 10 is the important part… and when the guests have well drunk. ‘Well drunk’ in the greek methyō which means to be drunken, intoxicated, your senses numbed.
So we have the kalos oinos, the good wine, set out at first, and when the guest have well drunk methyō, then the inferior wine would be set out, but they had kept the good wine the kalos oinos till now. Remember this is the kalos oinos that Jesus just made, the Kalos Oinos that methyō, makes people drunk.
The wine He made was intoxicating, there is just no way around the context clues in the greek in the rest of the passage
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