Sorry, but I couldn’t help myself in posting (***There was an article linked here, but I decided to remove it, primarily because of the other content on the site and the poor title choice of the article***).
I want to point out that I don’t endorse this particular church, or their broader beliefs. However, I thought this article was pretty good and to the point. I think too many times people think they need to “help God out” by adding in some rules that he didn’t actually give us.
In reality, God gave us all the info we needed, and we don’t need to forget the condemnation Jesus brought against the Pharisees for “teaching as doctrines the commandments of men” (Matthew 15:9).
***EDIT***
Well, it’s October 4, about 5 months since I wrote this article. If you decide to read the comments, you can see that a lot has been discussed. I thought I’d write a follow-up in here, just in case someone reads this, but doesn’t take the time to read every comment.
If you fall into that group and skim through this thread without a thorough reading, please don’t rush to any conclusions about those who have posted. Several of us adjusted our responses somewhat by the end of the discussion. I, for one, came away from it with a more conservative view than the one I started with. In hindsight, I wish I had approached this topic in a better manner. My initial post here, and some of my first comments were way too casual and did not use enough scripture.
So if you decide to read through some of this thread, let me again ask that you not jump to any conclusions about the people who posted on here or their positions, unless you are willing to carefully read the entire discussion. I’ve decided to leave the post on here, in case it is helpful to someone at some point. I’ve tried to discourage any further comments on this thread, but if you feel the need to add something you can. I may or may not approve it.
Thanks.
Finding Truth 
Concerning the wine that Jesus made at the marriage feast- Was it alcoholic? The Greek word used here is “oinos,” a variation of the Hebrew word “yayin.” This word can refer to grape juice in any stage, either fermented,or unfermented.
Regardless of your opinion of casual drinking, I’m sure most of you will agree that drunkenness is definitely a sin. In light of this, would Jesus contribute to drunkenness?
At the time Jesus had arrived at the feast, the guests had “well drunk”of whatever they were drinking (V.10.)
Jesus knew well the warnings of Habakkuk 2:15,”Woe to him who gives his neighbor intoxicating drink.”
With this in mind, we can be sure that the beverage Jesus made was not intoxicating drink. To do otherwise would have been totally incompatible with His nature.
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Here’s a link to some sources of additional study on the subject of alcohol for anyone interested…..
Elders, Deacons, Timothy, and Wine
http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2262
New Testament Beverages
http://lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVarticles/NewTestamentBeverages.htm
Old Testament Beverages
http://lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVarticles/OldTestamentBeverages.htm
The Use of Alcohol
http://lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVarticles/TheUseofAlcohol.htm
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Thanks Randy, I’ll check that out.
Wanted to add that I agree with Randy’s last point – Matt, I don’t believe Christ would have done anything that would cause others to sin. I think “when they were well drunk” refers to the fact that they had all had plenty to drink. I don’t think it was a commentary on their level of intoxication. It seems to me that it’s impossible for us to determine beyond a doubt whether the wine there was fermented or not.
On to some other points:
Billy, thanks for joining in on the discussion. You bring up some great points, and congratulations about your son, by the way. Believe me, he has nothing to fear from me. 😉 And sorry for making you feel as though you’ve stepped into another dimmension…
I think your point about our influence is the most pertinent, and it’s a good one. As a matter of fact, that’s the reason I think Christians shouldn’t drink at all. Seems like I might have mentioned that earlier, but I can’t remember for sure.
Anyway, I’ve got some other points to make, but don’t have time right now. I’ll post again shortly.
Thanks again for everyone’s comments.
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Well, after some consideration and contact from a friend I’ve realized how my last few posts could be misconstrued. With that in mind I’d like to take a bit of time and try and clear up exactly what I am saying.
Again, I understand the argument of why it is good judgment for a Christian to abstain from drinking at all. The possibility of being a stumbling block is very real. Just look at how much of a fuss this conversation about alcohol has stirred up on its own.
Also I am in no way trying to assert that Jesus Christ ever sinned. We know by the scriptures that Christ was perfect in every way. In a parallel thought line, Christ could never cause someone to sin.
How is this justified with my belief that Christ made fermented wine? Just because Christ made it, doesn’t imply that He forced anyone to drink it, or to consume it to excess. We know that that everything in the world, God/Christ made (Jn 1:3) Just b/c God makes something and men abuse it, we don’t get to blame God for man’s abuse. That is personal responsibility at its basics. God causes mushrooms to grow, some we can eat. Some will make you high and then kill you. Does that mean we can blame God if we eat the bad mushrooms, get high and die? Of course not! Then no more can you blame Christ if anyone got drunk from the wine He made at the wedding.
And to the question of how we tell if the wine Christ made was intoxicating or not, I refer us again to vs. 10. The master of the feast recognized the wine Jesus made as ‘kalos oinos’ that ‘methyō’. That is new/good wine that if over comsumed will get you drunk. Only intoxicating, fermented wine can posses the principles to make someone methyō, drunk. It matters not what they had been drinking, he directly pointed out what kind of wine Jesus had made. Again these are not my words, but the direct greek from the New testament. I am only striving to speak were the Bible does.
Again, no one had chosen to discuss the passages where Christ is called a drunkard, a winebibber, and so on. Some might call me an overzealous Alabama Football fan. I don’t believe that I am, but some might erronously think that. Why would they have reason to think that? Because I am an Alabama fan. The same logic flows to Christ being called a drunkard. I in no way believe Christ to have ever been intoxicated/drunk or anything like that. However it only logically flows that for the pharasees to call Him a drunkard, He at some point or another must have had some fermented wine.
I plead you to realize I am only speaking what is contained in the New Testament and making logical conclusing from that. Let’s all try to keep our heads about us, there are far more serious things going on that we could be worrying about.
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Regarding Matthew 11:18-19
Jesus was not a winebibber any more than John the Baptist was demon possessed. The critics of Jesus had slandered John. They had no credibility.
Christ was saying that those he was addressing weren’t happy with anything– with John the Baptist, a Nazarite who had very strict dietary regulations and would not drink wine (feremented or unfermented- they wouldn’t eat grapes or anything that came from them)- they said that he had a demon. And they weren’t happy with Jesus either, who is not a Nazarite, who does eat and drink and they say he is a glutton and a winebibber. They found fault with both of them.
Certainly the point is not that John and Jesus were guilty of what their critics accused them.
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No. I am NOT saying either was guilty of their accusations. However I am saying it logically follows that there would be some basis for the accusers to exaggerate on. That John the Baptist did act strange, he wore fur and ate bugs. That’s odd. His message was odd to them at the time, this would lead to their false accusations that he was demon possessed. In a like manner, Christ was more than likely seen drinking fermented wine. This would give an evil Pharisee an easy way to rag on Him calling him a drunk.
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I don’t understand why you assume that the wine was fermented. Could a Pharisee look at a flask of grape juice and tell?
Why do you assume that whatever Jesus was drinking was alcoholic?
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Let me hop in here and say that there’s no way we can know. Fermented or unfermented – either is a possibility.
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Because it was the eating and drinking with sinners that got him labeled a glutton and a winebibber. What would sinners be drinking? Also it doesn’t make sense to call someone a drunk that was drinking grape juice.
How about the last supper. And the ‘fruit of the vine’ consumed there. The Palestine grape harvest begins in the Jewish month of Elul (August-September). The harvest is over before Tishri 15-21 (September-October), the Festival of Booths – Deuteronomy 16:13. Because the last supper was on Passover, at Nisan 14 (April), seven months had elapsed since the harvest of the vine. Long before the last supper, any grape juice in Palestine would be well fermented. So, when Jesus drank the “fruit of the vine” at the last supper, we can be reasonably sure that he could only have been drinking fermented wine. That is why, when the Corinthians re-enacted the supper, some of them could get drunk (1Corinthians 11:21).
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Matt, I have heard many people make similar statements, but historical references indicate that the assumption that there was no means of preventing fermentation 2000 years ago is not correct.
Also, I have heard some make the point that leaven in any form was forbidden during the passover and since leaven is the fermentation agent, that the fruit of the vine in conjuction with the passover was never fermented.
The Living Bible Encyclopedia in Story and Pictures explains how grape juice could be preserved: “The means for preserving grape juice were well known. Kato (De Agri Cultura CXX) had this recipe: ‘If you wish to have must [grape juice] all year put grape juice in an amphora and seal the cork with pitch. Sink it in a fishpond. After 30 days take it out. It will be grape juice for a whole year.”’ (Vol. 16, pp. 2088-2089)
Another method for preserving grape juice was to concentrate the juice by boiling it into a syrup. Stored in a cool place, this concentrate would not ferment. Adding water later yielded a sweet, unfermented grape juice.
Still another way to have grape juice all year was to finely chop raisins—which are dried grapes—and then add water to produce juice. [For more information, see William Patton, Bible Wines—Law of Fermentation, pp. 24-41; C.A. Christoforides, “More on Unfermented Wine, ” Ministry, April 1955, p. 34; Lael O. Caeser, “The Meaning of Yayin in the Old Testament,” (master’s thesis), Andrews University, 1986, pp. 74-77; F.C. Gilbert, Practical Lessons from the Experience of Israel for the Church of Today (Nashville, Southern Publishing Assn., 1972, pp. 240-241.)]
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I think those are great points. Obviously, we’re not the first people to discuss this topic. I’ve even heard the argument that leaven is naturally present with grapes (grows on its skin), and that fermentation pretty much begins as soon as the grape is crushed. In fact, I’ve also heard that one of the ways to insure the leaven is removed is to allow it to turn to wine, since the alchohol eats up the leaven. Sounds crazy, I know, but you can see some articles on it here and here. The first one is actually written by the guy that does the Theophilus cartoons.
Anyway, I don’t put much stock in those things, but thought it was interesting. It seems people are divided on fermented or unfermented, alchoholic or non-alchoholic, etc. Personally, I think both sides make good points.
But before this goes any further, I think I need to clarify a few things about my actual position on this subject. Standby for transmission…
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This whole thread has gotten away from my original intent. When I first posted about this subject, I think I approached it in too casual of a manner. There are many different articles and many different lines of thought concerning this issue, hence many different ways that people look at all of it. It was poor judgment on my part to so casually make reference to such a convoluted issue.
After going back and rereading every post on this topic, I also think my first comments were a little too casual. I really wasn’t as clear on a few things as I probably should have been. So whether it’s really necessary or not, I want to take this opportunity to clarify those things.
First of all, I titled this site “Finding and Proclaiming the Truth” because that’s exactly my goal. I don’t pretend that all knowledge stops with me. Lord willing, I still have many years of growing, studying, and maturing ahead of me, and it’s likely that I’ll change my mind about a few things along the way. My intent is to allow a forum for spiritually-minded people to discuss varying topics and hopefully enrich their understanding. If that has happened at all, then I count it a success. Though I would probably tweak certain things about every post I’ve ever made on here, I would not completely rewrite them. As Paul said, I’ve done everything in all good conscience.
On the subject of alchohol, I think we can all agree that drunkenness is a sin that the Bible condemns. Not only that, but revelries, banquetings, etc are also condemned. As Billy and Kendra (among others) have both stated, a Christian must also consider his example to those around him. I think we’ve all proved that at least in the Southeastern US, the subject of drinking is a pretty hot one. For those reasons, I think Christians would be well advised to stay away from alchohol. As Paul said concerning a similar issue in Romans 14, “do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died.”
As the last few posts indicate, I think it’s impossible for any of us to know beyond a doubt whether Jesus and the apostles ever partook of alchohol or not. We do know that Christ certainly didn’t sin. The other conclusions we might draw along the way are fine, but all of them are at least partially speculation. So in my opinion, our ability to bind those conclusions on others is severely limited.
In no way do I advocate drinking – not on any level. I simply advocate that we let the Bible say what it says and leave it at that. Hopefully, as we all continue to study these things and grow, all of us will come to a more perfect understanding of what the Bible teaches, whatever that might be.
If I haven’t been clear on any of this, please let me know. I don’t believe this is an issue for any of us to divide on, especially since Romans 14 deals with issues just like this. Hopefully it’s one we can all help each other understand better.
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As I have read this I am a bit taken back by the willingness to embrace something that seems to be so clear to me. I want you to know I am no scholar, no intellectual; I am merely trying to be as faithful to the Lord and his word as I can be. There are several arguments and proofs that I am too simple minded to understand. However I do understand that strong drink is anything that will lead to intoxication, and is not good for us. Lance mentioned Proverbs 20:1, you can also look at Proverbs 31:6. I also want to make clear that it doesn’t matter what they do in other countries, planets, or wherever, that is their situation and they will have to answer for it. But for me as a Christian living in the United States today it would be sinful to take one drink if for no other reason than James 4:17- “Therefore to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin”- NKJV. We also should consider James 1:27 “Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.” Let us not have the stain of that sin.
Let us be bold enough to call sin what it is (i.e.- not an alternative lifestyle, not a bad choice, not a poor use of judgment, not something that is ok for them, but not for me.) If we as Christians are too afraid to call sin what it is we are just as corrupt as the Muslims who call our Savior “Just a Prophet” or “Just a Good Man.”
I do feel that this is something that needs to be discussed more openly, as well as in person. In this forum our ability to discuss this is greatly limited. This also needs to be discussed beyond this small-unknown forum, and a public debate would be an appropriate setting. I feel that drinking is one of the devil’s devices and it needs to be taught against publicly with clarity and conviction.
I hope that we all can come to a true understanding of God’s will for us.
Here are a couple other interesting links-
http://www.eaec.org/bibleanswers/alcohol.htm
Or http://www.logosresourcepages.org/Believers/drinking.htm
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I have several issues with what has been said and I will deal with them in time, I can no longer remain silent on this. I at first viewed this post as disappointing, I was angry about the blasphemous article, then the foolishness of the thoughts expressed, I’ve seen demonstrations of weakness on the part of my brethren, and remain disappointed with those whom I‘ve known and respected through the years. Most importantly, what has been said has gone against God’s word and that is the issue. I still believe this is a matter of weakness on the part of those who say they cannot say taking a drink is a sin, but in addition to that, lines have been drawn and this is now a whole different matter altogether. Several have expressed that this is a Romans 14 issue, but I hold that this is not a matter of judgment but that the Lord has been very clear on whether a drink is sinful or not. In addition to that, the mere suggestion of saying that we might serve a flawed Savior is particularly distressing. I will cover both of those soon.
Just because a matter is a “heated topic” is not a reason to back down from it Nathan. The reason we shouldn’t partake in the drinking of alcohol is because it is sin. I would love to let this go, but I can’t b/c several have violated God’s word in this matter and I cannot stand by and see God’s word mis-handled. The Lord says to preach the word in season and out of season, reprove, rebuke, and exhort. I come to you and everyone else here in love for your souls, seeing that you are in error here. What disallows me from letting this go is not because it is a “hot issue”, but from the example I have in Acts 5:28-29 where the apostles are told to basically keep quiet about Christ (no doubt a “hot issue“ in their region b/c they were the ones who killed Him), to which they responded “we ought to obey God rather than men”. So you see Nathan, I can’t back down when error is taught, and this is error. After I post this I would like to offer my information to those who would like a cd of a lecture done by my uncle on the subject of alcohol and the Christian. And I’d also like to state at the outset of this that clinically, alcohol is considered a drug, and a very powerful one at that.
One thing I want to point out that has been repeated quite a few times about my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ that is nothing more than a lie. In essence several have made Him out to be an open sinner, hypocrite, and a party to those in sin and I can’t help but say something about this blasphemy. (more on blasphemy later) If this is the case then this not the Jesus Christ who saved me from my sins and if it is, then we should not worship Him because He was a sinner. You see, if I claim that taking a drink is a sin and believe the scripture teaches that, yet you say the Lord took a drink, then I’ve just called my Savior a sinner. I don’t believe he drank, nor made intoxicating wine, and I believe drinking is a sin. For you to call this a matter of judgment is to allow that the Lord could have drank alcohol, which means I can, and I should follow His example. After all, if the Lord came down to this earth and lived the perfect life, and in that life He drank alcohol, then wouldn’t it follow that so should I? If I can’t then I can’t follow my Savior.
After reading the numerous posts talking about Jesus turning the water into wine at the wedding feast, being a drunkard or drinker himself, and other things there are some inconsistencies if this is the case…let’s apply some common sense here as we read the scripture. In Jn. 2 the Lord turned 120-180 GALLONS of water to wine. So tell me this, after they had drunken the other wine, he makes 120-180 GALLONS? more of “INTOXICATING” wine?? If that is the case, the Lord not only encouraged them to drink alcohol, but encouraged drunkenness, extreme drunkenness in this case b/c that would be a great amount of alcohol. But then the Lord God condemns drunkenness in the rest of His word all throughout the scripture? That’s foolish to make that claim and there is no basis for it. The claim that my Savior was a drinker, winebibber, or socially drank is preposterous and is not the picture of the One who died for my sins that I see in scripture. Aside from all of that, if it was wine that was intoxicating then that goes directly against everything the Old Testament and New Testament teach on drinking and drunkenness. If this was intoxicating wine then it is direct contradiction to Proverbs 23. If it’s poor judgment to be drinking, then I guess the Lord used poor judgment and He encouraged others to use poor judgment when He made intoxicating wine for them all to drink. Again, this is ridiculous and I hope none of us believes such a thing.. And because some accused Him of being a drunkard, a drinker, or associated with those who were in sin, then that means He was? Well they also accused Him of being a blasphemer, but we won’t apply the same reasoning to that accusation will we? I surely hope not!
Now back to the blasphemy I spoke of earlier. Nathan, the fact that you even posted the article you posted disappoints me and you should be ashamed. The very fact that someone refers to the Son of God, and lowers His name, as “The King of Brews” is in poor taste and is at the very least blasphemy. The fact that you would give an audience to it and encourage others to read such an article with a title such as that is scary and then you even placed your approval on a portion of it. Has the Lord‘s church been wrong all of these hundreds of years and you‘ve found something new? Do you realize what you’ve done here is made something that is a known drug, a poison, a nonessential item to sustain life, and most of all a sin, a matter of judgment? It doesn’t matter to what degree you place it Nathan, you’ve given the green light to use drugs. For anybody who is struggling with addictions, or is weak in this area, you’ve given them the go-ahead to use their own judgment on this issue, after all, your judgment is just as good as mine if it’s not doctrine. So why then is the alcoholic trying to get sober if all he has to do is cut it down some? You have no idea what those people go through Nathan. To say that taking a drink, or even hinting that it might be okay, is giving them poison that will lead to their death. For an alcoholic, the purpose of drink 1 is to get to 2, then 3, then 6. If I’m supposed to bear my brother’s burdens and build one up in a weakness, how do I build up the brother who’s fighting drunkenness? Encourage him to be able to just have one drink again? You see, your belief on this is either lawful to do no matter who it is, or it’s unlawful to do no matter who it is. There is no middle ground on this.
Do we realize that what has been done in this exchange of posts is that a line of fellowship has been drawn between all of the brethren who believe drinking is wrong in any capacity? and before you say you haven’t drawn that line, let me point it out:
Fact: if you can’t say this is a sin, you’ve placed it in Romans 14, so then it’s up to anyone’s discretion and your idea that one drink isn’t a sin is just as good as John Doe who says that for him 3 is okay to have and it’s not a sin
Fact: if this is a judgment issue then it’s up to the conscience of the individual and has no bearing on our soul’s salvation. Rom.14:5
Fact: if this is an issue of judgment then to preach our own view as doctrine would violate the faith and personal conscience of others (not doctrinal), thus it would be considered sin. Rom 14:12,23
In a judgment issue you can preach that to do either is right and still come out okay. Can we do the same with alcohol? I think not.
Fact: if anyone teaches a matter of judgment as doctrine, he is a teacher of error and should be pointed out as such and withdrawn from if he will not repent for being a false teacher
Fact: if you are attending and having fellowship with those who are publicly teaching that drinking alcohol is a sin, and you believe it to be a matter of judgment, (we know this b/c several have now publicly expressed it) have studied with them and they refuse to withdraw this belief, then aren’t you having fellowship with false teachers? For aren’t they violating Matt.15:9 in that they “teach as doctrine the commandments of men?”
Fact: now you are in sin b/c you are having fellowship with false teachers 2 Jn. 9
Fact: The churches who do not deal with these men accordingly are operating in error by not following
2 Jn. 9-11
The real fact is Nathan, that until now this may have been a private view that you and a handfull of others may have held, been studying, and as matter of conscience with you, but putting it in the forum it is in now and making the statements that you and others have made, the lines of fellowship have been drawn whether you would like to admit it or not. I hope you realize this and make correction. Discussion is good to have but better judgment would have been to study this personally with the elders, or with the preacher, or whoever opposes what you believe with your bibles open in order to come to a better understanding…however, now the time has come where after all of this discussion there are two sides to this issue and we must pick which side we’re on, only one of them is right. Either:
1. Drinking alcohol is sinful
2. Drinking alcohol is not sinful
Consider:
1 Cor.6:9-11 If they used to be this way, then why would Paul condone them going back and doing just a little bit of it and still be considered faithful? “Corinthians, go ahead and commit a little idolatry, I can’t say it’s a sin” or “Corinthians, go ahead and just get started being a homosexual, I can’t say it’s a sin” But no. No. He says but now you’re washed and clean do them no more b/c you’re Christ’s. Do “them” no more, do what? Do those sins no more. Not in the greatest, not in the least. Don’t even come close, as seen in other passages.
1 Cor. 6:12 “…not be brought under the power of any” If we’re under the power of a substance then aren’t we pushing God out? If we’re full of God then is there any room for any drugs? God says in Matt. 6:33 to “seek ye first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness.” How can I do that when I’m putting something into my body that the Lord warns against (Prov.23) and condemns in various other passages? Or what about Matt. 6:24 where the Lord says that we “cannot serve two masters, for either ye will hate the one and be loyal to the other or else be loyal to one and despise the other” Placing ourselves under the influence of alcohol, or any drug, places our loyalties elsewhere and it’s not what God had in mind. Drinking is wrong. Period!
1 Cor. 6:19-20 Our body is the temple of the Spirit, how can we glorify God in our body and in our Spirit which are God’s if we partake of a drug such as alcohol? Notice that when we’re prescribed a drug by the doctor, or take over the counter medication at home, it’s to get us back to a state of feeling normal, not to heighten our state of normal into abnormal. Anybody whose ever abused a drug, no matter what it is, will tell you that the feeling of normal was never normal while they used. Soon normal was how they felt when they were using, while high or buzzed, and in the late stages normal was just taking the drug so they could just function, and then they found another drug. This is how drugs work. Alcohol IS a drug and it IS a sin to take part in its consumption. If we take the position that one drink isn’t wrong, then that opens the door for the other drugs as well. It’s pretty sad when those who are outside of the body of Christ can understand this simple point and see it clearly as a sin, but those who’ve been raised in the church for most, if not all of their lives, are the ones who bring such a subject up and question it’s sinfulness when it’s so clearly evident to others.
Scripture after scripture and example after example has been laid out plainly and concisely through this whole post by Tadd, Kendra, Lance, and now numerous others who have joined this discussion only to be answered with one or more of the following statements, actions, or attitudes: “oh, you must be mistaken, that’s not what I meant”, or “maybe you misunderstood me”, more circular reasoning, more questions with no end, personality conflicts, a misapplication or misunderstanding of the scripture, and a refusal to heed what’s been said and explicitly shown from God’s word. Nathan, you’ve heard my dad, Randy, and I’m sure many other preachers preach on this same subject time after time through the years, and I have no doubt that you’ve had many opportunities to discuss this, as well as some of the others involved in this discussion, yet now you choose this forum to be your outlet for such a discussion. This private view is no longer private Nathan, and I believe you are in sin as well as others who share your belief. Nathan, I side with what the word of God says and what I can prove from the scriptures I’ve referenced and that others have stated as well. I could even bring you numerous personal examples and testimonies from a multitude of others (both out in the world, and in the body of Christ) who will explain to you in no uncertain terms the adverse effects alcohol has played in their lives from the very first sip they took to the very last, how they know for a fact that taking a drink is a sin for both them and anyone else, and that alone should clue you in that it‘s not right for anybody. Drinking is a sin!
Personally I think a public forum in front of the brethren is where this belongs, not on the internet. The Bible teaches the truth on this and one of us is wrong, therefore in order to find out the truth we need a venue where both will be able to prepare in advance and be given the opportunity to “give an answer for the hope that is within them.” One side has the truth on this Nathan, and the truth has nothing to hide, it’s time to defend your view now that this has become public in nature. Debate this issue yourself in front of the brethren, or choose someone to represent what you believe on this, because souls are now at stake and this matter must be resolved before brethren.
Find me a church where they teach that taking a drink is okay and I’ll show you a church who has gone astray in other areas as well. Take a look at the article you put up, I’d hope we’d all agree they’re seriously off the deep end, but you keep following this line of thought that’s where you’re headed too Nathan. You allow a little bit of sin in Nathan and you’ve opened the door for it all. And you (as well as those who have agreed with you) have opened the door wide open with drawing the line against all who don’t share your view here with what you said at the beginning of this discussion:
[ In reality, God gave us all the info we needed, and we don’t need to forget the condemnation Jesus brought against the Pharisees for “teaching as doctrines the commandments of men” (Matthew 15:9). ]
So if we teach that drinking alcohol is a sin, then aren’t we “in vain worshipping the Lord” as the beginning of the verse says and being Pharisaical and far from God? That would be conclusion one would come to according to your own words Nathan, and the context of the passage. Here are more passages to read over and I hope you will study them to find the truth. It is plain as day to me and I can most assuredly say that taking a drink is a sin. You see Nathan, it‘s very easy once all has been laid out on the table here for you to step back and say let‘s take it easy guys, but the harm has been done:
Hosea 4:11 Is. 28:7-13 Prov. 20:1 Is.5:11,22-23
1 Pet. 4:3 1 Thess.5:22 1 Cor.5:11-13 Gal.5:19-21
Jn. 2 Prov. 23 2 Pet.2:12-22 Eph. 5:18
Let me close with this: We all agree with Psalm 1, and we all agree that sin is not befitting a Christian. So we can apply the scripture to our lives in all aspects. We agree that drunkenness is wrong. It would be logical to conclude (besides all the scripture that says it‘s wrong) that the road to drunkenness would also be wrong. Matt. 7:13-14 plainly says we are to choose the narrow way, that way is the Lord’s way and it steers clear of things that even appear to be evil (1 Thess. 5:22) So now when we look at the scripture Psalm 1 where it says “blessed is that man that walks not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of the scornful…” we can draw from that that we should not walk by the intoxicating drink (or linger by it as Prov. 23 says), stand in its path, nor sit anywhere near it. If we are having a drink Nathan, after all it is, as you say, as matter of judgment (Rom. 14), and my brother sees me drinking that beverage, what is he going to think about it? It is, after all, a matter of judgment right? YOU can’t say it’s a sin, right? So what do you do with Matt. 7:20 where it says “by their fruits you shall know them”. I see someone drinking I don’t think “hey, I wonder if that’s number 1 or 7” Not in the least Nathan. Drinking is wrong from #1 all the way to the end result being drunkenness. I hope you can see the logic in the scripture in that. Just try to apply your reasoning on this with all of the other types of sin. I’m praying that all will come to a knowledge of the truth on this and make correction where it is needed.
I offer my information to obtain the lesson on Alcohol from my Uncle Art, who not only gives a Biblical explanation as to why it is wrong, but also a clinical reason from the standpoint of our bodies and its effect.
Once again, if anyone wants to contact Matt, let me know, and I’ll arrange it. Guys, PLEASE stop posting your personal information on here. It’s just not smart.
— Nate
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Well said, Matt.
I am surprised that the phrase “free from the influence of intoxicants” was used to jump to the conclusion that drunkenness is the only drinking taught against. Does an intoxicating substance only influence one at the point of excess?
Consider also this example: Lev. 10:9 – “Do not drink wine or intoxicating drink, you, nor your sons with you, when you go into the tabernacle of meeting, lest you die…” If there is any parallel to our priesthood (1 Pet. 2:9) then you or I would not be in a position to approach God until the intoxicating effects were gone from our body. Can we intentionally put ourselves in that position and say it is not sin? Would our High-priest ever have put Himself in such a position?
Proverbs 31:4 says, “It is not for kings, O Lemuel, It is not for kings to drink wine, nor for princes intoxicating drink;” but we have trouble determining whether or not the King of Kings would have used intoxicating drink.
If the argument is really one of specific authority to condemn drinking let’s follow it to it ends. We all agree that when God specified vocal music for worship He condemned all other forms of music in worship.
You’re argument would be that when God specifically condemned drunkenness He allowed all other forms of drinking. But then we encounter passages such as 1 Pet 4 that make alcohol use even more restrictive and so we know that can not be the case. The same thing that makes instrumental music a sin makes one drink a sin – it is never mentioned as being allowed by God. Is that not being silent where the Bible is silent? We would all be hard pressed to even provide a Biblical proof of anyone drinking alcohol casually (if we could at all). Medicinal use is specifically allowed and that is why I can allow it.
The content of the wine at Cana and all other such historical and academic questions are easily judged in view of passages that condemn not only drunkenness, but similar practices (Gal:5:19). In other words, we may never know what was intended by Prov. 31:6, 7, but we should KNOW that it is not inviting nor authorizing God’s people to use intoxicating drink.
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Maybe I dont understand what Rom 14 Is talking about. I will read it again. What Nathan and others, such as myself, have referred to with mentioning Rom 14 is verse 21. We may not have the most acurate understanding on the passage, but if you read it you will see that we did not put drinking in there, God did. I’m sorry That I do not see this issue as clearly as the rest of you. I, and if I my speak for Nathan, are trying to study it further with what is at hand.
You should all take a moment and look back at what has been said and see who has drawn the line. Nathan asked for Bible study and discussion. Who has mentioned Fellowship? Who honestly drew that line?
To say that one public forum is wrong and then say that another is public forum right, sounds wierd to me. Maybe you’ve all seen different debates that I have. Some people think they can prove drinking was done in the new testiment, I see evidence. I see evidence to the contrary. I may be slow and simple minded, but I dont think that Nathan said this is a dividing line. Rom 14 allows that there are those who find eating meats and other activities as sinful. Paul says that although they are wrong, and the activities allowable, we should endulge them to avoid placing a stumbling block. I dont think it was a stumbling block to discuss those issues, but to do those things around them. This is not an example where paul told them to withdrawl fellowship because some thought and logically let be known, that they disagreed with the eating of meats and other things. This is an example of why we should avoid certain things.
I ask again, Who has drawn a dividing line?
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Billy, you have come off strongly on a topic you feel strongly about. I cant throw any stones about that. You did bring up valid points, which should be considered. Asking if God would dwell with a beer, or any other intoxicating dring is an outstanding point. Seeing God dwell with RedBull, BigMacs, and JellyBeans seems just as rediculous.
Luke, you also have things worthy of consideration, and forgive me for not being able to address all that I would like. the point of yours that stands out to me, is where you stated that we should call sin a sin. I agree and dont think that anyone here would argue that. Among other things in you example of what should be called a sin was “poor Judgement.” I’m not sure that every lapse in judgement equals sin. Is that what you’re saying?
Tadd, I understand your desire to stand for what you believe in. I can understand you saying that if someone disagrees with your strong beliefs that they are drawing diving lines and should be corrected publicly. I could understand it better if you were consistant. You told me that I Cor 11 was clear to you and I agree with you. But you havent seemed to draw or suggest any division on this matter. How many times have you preached on it. It is clear to you, then what’s different? People obviously disagree. Many to me seem unwilling to even study the issue. Do you think they are drawing division, do you think that you should?
Nathan and others here seem willing to study. Why is this a call for a line in the sand?
I hope no one here wants division of any kind. Rhetoric can be useful for illistration, but it is not proof. Both sides of this issue should remember that.
to clarify a point on my previous post, where i said,” we should endulge them” the “them” was refering to the weaker bretheren discussed in Rom 14.
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A debate seems ill advised. Emotions are obviously high on this subject. A debate, to me, would only fuel those emotions which might lead to poor judgement and the mishandling of God’s word.
I believe people will feel the need to submitt everything they can think of on the issue. I believe that with these things going on people will “shoot from the hip” and not give adequit time to compose their thoughts before they deliver them. I think people will be more likely to draw lines and divisions in such a case.
here in this forum, people can study and think before they respond. They can consider what someone else has said for a longer period before having to respond. I dont see the problem with Bible discussion in this way. Luke, how are we geatly limited in this forum?
Proverbs tells us how to handle one another to acheive the best results. Gal 6, very breifly does the same.
Tad, if Nathan should not have directed anyone to the article, then youre guilty of that too. I have not read the article, but the title is horendous.
We should be longsuffering with one another. especially when the one another are willing to study.
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anyone willing to help me spell?
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Tadd, one more thing. I really do believe that the parallel you’ve drawn with the levitical priesthood is a good point. I mean that. Should we do all the things that the the israelites did to prepare themselves for the tabernacle? We are a royal priesthood, so a better question is, should we, or are we bound to do all the levitical priests did?
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Obviously, I need to respond to a few things on here.
First of all, I can’t tell you how sorry I am that this issue has caused so much conflict and has caused so many ultimatums to be made. Considering that this topic doesn’t concern the divinity of our Lord, what is required for salvation, or the overall gospel message, then I am rather surprised that so many divisions are trying to be made about it. As Josh mentioned, would we divide over the head covering? And as he also mentioned, none of us put this issue in Romans 14, God put it there, regardless of how any of us feel about the subject.
Matt A. has referred to us calling Christ a sinner. Let me say in no uncertain terms that that is NOT the case. The other Matt made a post yesterday that suggested Jesus may have eaten unclean foods, but I made a statement disagreeing with that because it would have left Christ a sinner. And Matt later reposted saying that he was mistaken, and essentially withdrew his comment. Are we Christian enough to let that go? We certainly should be.
Now, I know that part of Matt A’s statement refers to some of us suggesting that Christ may very well have turned the water to alchoholic wine and may have partaken of some of it himself. Well, that’s only wrong if any amount of alchohol is wrong. If any alchohol is wrong, then Christ simply wouldn’t have had any. If he did have any, then a moderate amount is obviously not wrong. Either way, Christ certainly didn’t sin. As Romans 3:4 says, “let God be true, but every man a liar.”
Many of you have made some really good points for consideration — I’ll certainly be the first to say that. As a matter of fact, this discussion has actually made me more certain that the Christian has no business drinking. As has been said, the Bible teaches that drunkenness, revelries, banquetings, etc are wrong. Furthermore, we have to be careful of our example for others. And many good points have been made that we are to pursue holy things, strive to be spiritual, draw closer to God, etc. It’s those points in particular that I had not considered as much before.
So I thank all of you for pointing those things out. But now, if you’ll allow me, let me try to explain what the real issue here has been. (My next comment is coming right up…)
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Earlier, I posted another article on this site concerning how we perceive biblical warnings. Was there something wrong with that article? Did it come to the wrong conclusions concerning drinking alchohol? If so, please let me know, and I’ll correct it.
If that article was correct, then why have so many of you claimed that I’m (or anyone else on here) advocating drinking?! If that’s your position, then I’ll submit that you either haven’t read this entire thread, or you’re not understanding it. In no way do I condone drinking. Hopefully, that will clear things up a little.
Why do I think a Christian shouldn’t drink?
First of all, it can lead to drunkenness. Many of you have so aptly pointed out that danger lies along the path of alchohol. I couldn’t agree more. And we’ve all agreed that drunkenness is wrong (Rom13:13, 1 Cor 5:11). Great.
Secondly, revelries, banquetings, and drinking parties are also condemned by God (1 Pet 4:3). In other words, frat parties, keggers, or any place or gathering that promotes drunkenness and partying. Have I said anything amiss so far?
Thirdly, as Christians, we are to be careful of our example (Matt 5:14). Seeing as how alchohol leads to drunkenness, how it’s often found in the settings of revelries, banquetings, and drinking parties, and how we have plenty of other beverages to choose from today, we should all avoid alchohol. Aside from some mild health values, or for use in cooking, or for use as a primitive fuel source, there’s not too much value in alchohol.
Christians should stay away from it.
Is that clear? Does someone disagree with what I’ve said? Have I misrepresented God’s word in some way? Please let me know if I have, for that’s not my intent.
I don’t drink alchohol. I certainly don’t advocate that anyone else should. I have no agenda.
If so far, you agree with me, then you might wonder what all this fuss has been about? Well, the issue I’ve always had is not in wanting to say that alchohol is ok. My issue has always been that I’m not comfortable with the way we often come to the very conclusion that I listed above.
I have heard many sermons from many different preachers (I’m honestly not trying to single anyone out here — I hope that’s clear) that come to the same conclusion — that a Christian shouldn’t drink — but sometimes I think they misuse some passages to get that conclusion.
For example, I have often heard the passages concerning “baquetings, revelries, and drinking parties” be defined to say that even a sip of alchohol is a sin. That’s not something I find in the Bible. I know for a fact that those words don’t mean that in English, and I think most of the Greek definitions don’t mean that either. Even if I found one that did mean that, I don’t trust my own expertise of the Greek language (which is nill) against that of the large groups of Greek scholars who translated those words into “banquetings, revelries, and drinking parties.”
Furthermore, wine is one of the things listed in Romans 14. Paul tells the Christians there to “bear with the weaker brother.” Obviously, each side of the issue views the other as the “weaker brother,” but it really doesn’t matter who is weaker and who is not. The way we are to deal with one another is in love and forebearance. What is it that James 3 says? Verse 17 says “But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy.” In other words, we can’t compromise on God’s word, but beyond that, we must be careful in the way we approach one another.
Anyway, I do not believe this issue is as cut and dry as many of us like to make it. Should a Christians drink? Absolutely not. There is plenty of evidence to support how we should act as we strive to become better examples.
But let me ask you a question… (my next post is coming shortly…)
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There are a few things I would like to discuss. Unfortunately none of them have to do with alcohol. But so many comments have been made I feel some things need to be addressed before we move on.
The first topic is attitude and Christian love. We are challenged to correct each other when we see a brethren in error, none would argue that. However we must remember that in doing that we must harbor no spite, no harsh feelings. We are told to treat each other like brothers and sisters, older ones like respected fathers and mothers. I have to ask is this the way you treat your family? Some of you have attacked Nathan with such bitterness it makes me sick.
Secondly false accusations and twisting of other’s words. Nowhere has anyone here labeled Christ a sinner, a hypocrite, a drunkard or any thing like that. Those that accused others of making those statements should know better than to stoop to that level.
Thirdly, My name is Matt and I and I only am responsible for my statements. Don’t blame things I said, or positions I took on Nathan. I can stand on my own two feet. I have simply laid out direct passages from the New Testament, even breaking some of them down to the Greek to try and get some of you to under stand. My positions can be talked about further in another post, now is not the time.
Fourthly, all this call for a debate in a public place. One side of this argument really seems to be looking for some attention. We are here simply to discuss matters of faith and grow together in knowledge of our Lord. Why do you want to end that? Why are there calls time and time again to have a debate where it seems one side just wants to put the other in its place. This site has had around 200 hits a day on this subject, that seems pretty public. Not to mention that all can chime in, not just one or two per side.
Fifthly, labeling alcohol as a drug. That is a pretty week argument. You want to ban caffeine next? Anyone here have a cup of coffee this morning, or plan on having tea or a coke at lunch? Alcohol is a drug, so are a lot of other things that can be used both beneficially and to harm us.
All this talk about drawing a line and poor fellowship, even hints of withdrawal. I would politely ask you to keep you nose in your own congregation. Others from Nathan and my congregation are aware of the things posted here, Randy has even made some comments. We all seem to show the maturity to study over issues, talk about them amongst ourselves and not get all riled up. I would ask that you do likewise.
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I think a key to understanding this issue is found in the articles that Luke referenced…
http://www.logosresourcepages.org/Believers/drinking.htm
This artilce said that the alcholic drinks that we have today would have been considered “strong drink” and condemned.
Much wine in the first century was very low alcohol content and/or was watered down. It may have been fermented, but at such a low level that it would have been difficult to drink enough to get drunk- unless you were drinking something in the category of “strong drink.”
The Nazarites (and others) would not drink anythiing from the grape (or eat the grape). These are the types of folks Romans 14 is talking about. People who had imposed rules upon themselves that God had not, or were still imposing the old law. These were matters of indifference to God and they should not judge others in areas of indifference to God.
Romans 14 is not saying that we should allow everyone to practice according to their conscience. The matters discussed there are matters of indifference to God. We know that strong drink and drunkenness are not matters of indifference to God.
If I could have some of the wine that Romans 14 is talking about, that wine was a matter of indifference to God. But I don’t believe that type of wine is what is being sold today. The wine and other alcholic beverages sold today are what would have been considered “strong drink.”
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How many new converts do you know that perfectly practice God’s word? How many of you have known young women who studied themselves out of the world into serving Christ that always dressed as modestly as they should have? Did you withdraw from them? Did you make it a point of fellowship? Or did you allow them time to come to a better understanding? Did you try to lovingly coax them in the right direction and understand that God bears with all of us in our weaknesses, as long as we really are trying to serve him faithfully?
Or how about attendance? The first couple of times a new convert missed services when they probably could have been there, did you scorn them publically? Did you threaten them with withdrawal unless they repented? Or did you try to teach them and allow them to grow a little before you expected that level of understanding from them?
If we hold people to some of these things who aren’t even Christians yet, are we putting extra barriers between them and Christ? We have to understand that certain things have not been illustrated so plainly in the Bible, even if we think they have.
For instance, where does God draw the line for us on gluttony? How many carbs are too many? Is this something that God has told us, or are we forced to make our own judgments on the issue? And if that’s the case, can we make those judgments for others, or is that between them and God? Sure, we all know what gluttony is, and what it isn’t. But is there not a gray area that we can’t decide for anyone else but ourselves?
I think that’s the principle taught in Romans 14 and 1 Cor 8-10. God has left some things up to our own judgment. The Pharisees made it a law that a tailor couldn’t carry a needle around with him on the Sabbath for fear that would tempt him to work. Is that necessarily a bad suggestion? No. But did they have the right to draw that line for him? I don’t think so. I think it would be wise for all of us to study over Col 2:16-23 and try to determine what Paul is speaking of here.
I think I’ve said about all I can at this point. Let me reiterate that I in no way condone drinking, nor do I do it myself. I think a Christian should not engage himself in such activity because of where it can lead, the dangers associated with it, and his example to those around him (Christian and non-). Furthermore, I don’t dispute someone who teaches those things publically. I just ask that we all make sure we are teaching them biblically. Remember, a stricter judgement is reserved for those who are teachers. If we take up that noble responsibility, let’s make sure we all do it with a clear conscience and with the sincere determination to teach God’s word accurately.
If that’s what all of us are really, continually striving for, then we’re doing our best. And I’m convinced that God is pleased with that. We will all make mistakes along the way. But God is faithful and just to forgive us when we fail him (if we repent). And he’s promised that if we seek the truth, we will find it. Certainly, if I’ve been guilty of misrepresenting something or causing someone to stumble, then that’s wrong, and I ask all of you, and God, to forgive me of that.
Hopefully, this last series of comments makes my intentions clear. If I have mis-spoken, you would be my friend to point it out.
Thanks
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