Sorry, but I couldn’t help myself in posting (***There was an article linked here, but I decided to remove it, primarily because of the other content on the site and the poor title choice of the article***).
I want to point out that I don’t endorse this particular church, or their broader beliefs. However, I thought this article was pretty good and to the point. I think too many times people think they need to “help God out” by adding in some rules that he didn’t actually give us.
In reality, God gave us all the info we needed, and we don’t need to forget the condemnation Jesus brought against the Pharisees for “teaching as doctrines the commandments of men” (Matthew 15:9).
***EDIT***
Well, it’s October 4, about 5 months since I wrote this article. If you decide to read the comments, you can see that a lot has been discussed. I thought I’d write a follow-up in here, just in case someone reads this, but doesn’t take the time to read every comment.
If you fall into that group and skim through this thread without a thorough reading, please don’t rush to any conclusions about those who have posted. Several of us adjusted our responses somewhat by the end of the discussion. I, for one, came away from it with a more conservative view than the one I started with. In hindsight, I wish I had approached this topic in a better manner. My initial post here, and some of my first comments were way too casual and did not use enough scripture.
So if you decide to read through some of this thread, let me again ask that you not jump to any conclusions about the people who posted on here or their positions, unless you are willing to carefully read the entire discussion. I’ve decided to leave the post on here, in case it is helpful to someone at some point. I’ve tried to discourage any further comments on this thread, but if you feel the need to add something you can. I may or may not approve it.
Thanks.
Finding Truth 
Josh,
Clarification- Poor judgment can be consequential or not. A non-consequential example would be I washed a new red shirt with my white t-shirts resulting in they all turning pink. That is a not an issue it was poor judgment.
Whenever judgment must be used, we as Christians are taught clearly “better safe than sorry.” In this case where alcohol is viewed so negatively in scripture (i.e. Prov 20:1; 31:4-7; Leviticus 10:9; Galatians 5:19-21; 1Peter 4:3) and we have to make a decision to partake or not, cast judgment, the decision is clear. So in this case when we are taught not to partake, and to be soberminded and we have to make a decision about it. Using such poor judgment and deciding to endulge would be a sin because it is contrary to what the Bible so clearly teaches.
Another example of poor, sinful, judgment would be if my wife and I went to the beach and she wore a 2 piece bikini. Although it is not viewed as wrong by the world it is, and she would have used poor judgment as according to 1 Timothy 2:9.
The reason I feel that this forum limits us is because we are missing all the non-verbal communication as well as emotion. The reason that I say this is because we all must be careful that we are doing this out of love for one anothers souls, and I do not mean to “offend” just by the inflection the reader may put in any statements that may be posted. So, I know I can much more clearly convey myself speaking in person as opposed to through a internet forum.
The only offense that we all should want to make is that of trying convict others to do what is right in the sight or God.
Nate,
I understand the point about not putting up barriers between |”new converts or prospective converts.” But we must always realize the barrier between ANYONE and Christ is the barrier of SIN. In whatever form it may take- marriage situations, any type of addictions, partaking in a variety of activites that are sinful will be the barrier, not me or anyone else who is trying to obedient.
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Josh, I in no way believe that anyone here is ready to disfellowship because of the issue at hand. Ready for more much needed study? Most definitely.
I know that Matt A. drew up an illustration of what happens when one teaches for doctrine the commandments of men. If anyone is teaching falsely, or misusing God’s word, we all know what that leads to if he doesn’t repent. I was just thinking about the statement that Billy made in an earlier post, One of us is wrong. one of us is a false teacher. It is utterly impossible for us both to be right. And yet this is considered by some to be a ‘matter of opinion’? …”
I think Matt and Billy were both stressing the fact that for many of us, this is a very serious issue, not just a matter of judgment.
Also, I agree with Luke, it’s easy to get emotional and put the wrong inflection on other people’s post. Please, be careful not to do so.
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Randy, I can see your point. I hope that I have not come off in an offensive way and hope I havent left the impression that everyone here has.
I also believe that strong drink is condemned. And you may be right, that what is sold today is has much more alcohol. I will look into it. thanks.
Rom 14, will take me longer to agree on. Wouldn’t the Nazarite have known not everyone was as Nazarite? I’m not sure, and maybe we can’t know for sure. I will, however, look into it.
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Luke, I have no issues with your tone. I hope you take no offense with mine. I appreciate your willingness to discuss the matter with me.
I totally agree that we should be better safe than sorry. Someone once commented to that, “there is a way that cannot be wrong.”
Should we make women wear a covering and a man remove his hat to pray, because it is undeniably authorized?
I remove my hat and abstain from alcohol for just those reasons. Can I then bind that on others because I feel it is the safe way?
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Josh-
I did not mean to infer that Romans 14 was referring to Nazarites directly. I just was using that as an example of a group of people that had bound dietary restrictions upon themselves that God had not bound.
Of course, there were judaizing teachers that were trying to bind OT dietary restrictions (what you could eat and drink and when) upon others and they were not to do that.
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The example I used of the Nazarite vow was not stated correctly. Those that took the vow did so voluntarily (so in that sense, it was self-imposed), but the regulations were God’s as stated in Number 6.
Numbers 6 :1-12 describes the requirements of the one who takes this vow to “separate themselves to the Lord.”
But these regulations in regard to diet (whether from this vow or elsewhere in the Old Law) were now a matter of indifference to God according to Romans 14.
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Randy, Thanks, that does make a little more sense for me.
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Josh,
There is much more to the discussion in 1Corinthians 11 but I won’t wear a cap or hat and my wife in the assembly does wear a covering.
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Sorry I didn’t address your last question in response 83 about binding. If it was just because I felt that way then no. However if scriptures teach the practice then yes it can be bound, and I feel that both practices are taught. Not to say there might not be an unanswered question but the teaching is still there.
Trying to have all the answers is also one thing we need to be careful of and that is to think we have to have every answer to every possibile scenario when we can see what the overall teaching is and follow that. Let us not look for the loophole let us be willing servants will to sacrifice things here for the greater things to come.
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I don’t see the bitterness you speak of, Matt, and it is not just as simple as keeping our nose out of your congregation. People in this discussion who have taken different sides worship together and have long relationships with Nathan and his family. I’m just the guy who chased the rabbit. Unfortunately, Matt, I think you have been hurt by this teaching because the inescapable conclusion of an earlier argument you made was that Christ without a doubt used intoxicating drink and that He encouraged and was a party to others participation in drunkenness and the eating of unclean meats. I do not fault you, though, because that is the honest end to your position.
Some may continue to say that passages have not been presented that condemn one drink, however, neither have passages been provided that affirm one drink as a Christian liberty. My stance is that there is no passage. I am only authorized to abstain from casual or moderate alcohol use. The Bible questions not only my wisdom, but my faithfulness if I do not abstain. If that isn’t binding then nothing is. Josh, my answer to covering wouldn’t help you because I can think of no woman in our congregation that doesn’t cover herself. It is one of the reasons I attend there.
I don’t care about the argument and I consulted others about my conviction to challenge this before the brotherhood in a public debate before expressing that desire. The issue is now two fold to me – public false teaching on one side or the other and alcohol.
If you don’t understand that I do not believe this falls into an area of judgment, now you know. I also, as Randy, do not believe the teaching of Romans 14 is simply to practice according to one’s conscience. These issues are why I suggested a public debate among the brotherhood.
I believe I have been confused with someone else or either my comments have been misconstrued, but I do not believe that there is a word on this post that would indicate I took this discussion personal or that I made personal attacks. I mean, I just haven’t said some of the things that have been attributed to me.
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I think Tadd’s idea of a public debate is a good one. I would be interested in helping or participating in it. Location would not be an issue for me wether in Birmingham area or Mobile, Pensacola area. If anyone would be willing, we can work out the details. You can contact me at ********
Guys, let me again respectfully request that you STOP putting your personal information on this site. If you want to post your private information on the internet, feel free to go to WordPress.com and open your own account. It’s free, and you can post whatever you like on it. However, until then, if anyone wants to contact you directly, I’ll let you know.
— Nate
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85 (now 86) posts on this topic. I find it quite amazing and maybe even sad that this has to be debated in such a way. Although I am sure faithful preachers, teachers, elders of old were disturbed about having to debate fellowship halls, musical instruments, saved by faith alone, and many other false teachings that have tried to creep into Christ’s church.
Many verses have been used, in my opinion some correctly some incorrectly. I have no more to add. But why are we having to debate such a thing as the poison of alcohol? We know, “that in the end it bites like a serpent and stings like a viper”Prov.23:31-32 (I changed my mind and used a verse)
Why would a christian even dare to partake in this and why would another defend it? You are either for it all the way or against it all the way. Sneaking a drink by hiding yourself from the world in your home does not make it ok. I feel most agree that social drinking is sin. It destroys your influence. If you do not think so, after you down one try to teach the person next to you the gospel of Christ. I bet they do not listen. If it is sin there, how could it not be sin in your home? Is it sin for me to look at pornography in public, but ok in my home as long as I do it “occasionally” and no one sees me? Obsurd? Of course it is, but I can not find anything in the Bible that says do not look at pornography. (By the way, God always sees us even if we are hiding in our homes.)
We should be proclaiming to christians that they should run from strong drink! It serves absolutely no purpose in the life of a christian. Let us see how far away from sin we can get, not how close. We do not need to be putting stumbling blocks in front of people by telling them it is your choice.
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Andy,
I agree with you.
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There are several passages in the New Testament that deal with drinking, wine , and drunkeness. The following are most of them, although there are some others that use the words, but don’t seem to directly address these points.
Romans 14:21 We are not to eat anything or drink wine if it causes our brother to be weak or stumble.
Ephesians 5:18 We are not to be drunk with wine, wherein is excess.
1Timothy 3:3 Elders are not to be given to wine.
1Timothy 3:8 Deacons are not to be given to much wine.
1Timothy 5:23 Timothy is told to use a little wine for his stomach’s sake.
Titus 1:7 Elders are not to be given to wine.
Titus 2:3 Aged women are not to be given to much wine.
1Peter 4:3 It is a sin to walk in lusts, excess of wine, banquetings, and revellelings.
1Corinthians 5:11 We are not to keep company with idolators, railers, or a drunkard.
1Corinthians 6:10 Neither thieves, nor covetors, nor drunkards will inherit the kingdom of God.
1Thessalonians 5:7-8 We are to be sober.
Romans 13:13 We are not to walk in rioting and drunkeness.
Galations 5:21 Drunkeness, revellings, and such like are works of the flesh.
Now this is what we see the New Testament saying on the subject. We agree with it, we plan to teach it, and we admonish all to do likewise. If you disagree with what these passages say, then we have some doctrinal matters we need to discuss further. If you do agree with these passages, what do you intend to debate? If you believe these passages need some amplification and addition, then you are venturing into the realm of opinion. supposition, and/or conjecture. We do not mind you teaching this, if you use scripture and teach it with the caveat that it is your opinion. We do not believe anyone’s opinion should be taught as fact, nor do we believe God needs any help. He has told us what He is going to say on this subject, and he means what he says.
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I don’t know what else there is to say to add to the vast amount of entries appropiately recognizing drinking modern day alcoholic beverages for any use other than medical purposes to be sin.
Modern day alcohol is “strong drink.” It would never be wise to drink alcohol in it’s modern form. Proverbs 20:1
We should not consume any substance that can cloud our judgement or cause us to not be soberminded. 1 Thess. 5:8
Nor should we put ourselves in any position that resembles evil.
1 Thess. 5:22
Here is some info that I found a Truth Tract entitled The Bible, Medical Science and Alcohol.
page 13 “Alchol is not even a true stimulant in any sense of the word, Experiments show that it is a depressant to the nervous system of man whether taken in large or small quantities.”
How can one be truely 100% soberminded if they take even one drink? It will have some sort of effect.
We know that alchol is legal and therefore one of the most prominent causes of much wickedness in the world. So why would we not admitt it’s connection at least in the USA with evil and then avoid it.
If it is wrong for us as indivuals to take a drink publicly because of 1 Thess. 5:22 how can we say it is not sin?
If by making a concious decision to drink even just one drink effects our mind making us not soberminded according to modern day science and the more important 1Thess. 5:6-8, then why can’t we call it sin.
Stance: Drinking any amount for any reason other than medical purposes is sin. 1 Tim. 5:23
Scott
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the issue still out there is are you guys willing to say that the bible teaches that taking one drink of alcohol for any reason except medicinal is a sin.
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I can say what the bible says.
Romans 14:21- We are not to eat anything or drink wine if it causes my brother to stumble or be weak.
Ephesians 5:18- Be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess
See post #89 for additionsl passages.
In addition:
Isaiah 5:11-12- Woe to those who pursue intoxicants.
Isaiah 28:7- Intoxicants cause error in vision and judgement.
Proverbs 23:20-21, 29-35- Woe and sorrow are caused by wine.
Proverbs 31:4-5- Drinking can cause one to forget the law and pervert judgement.
1Thessalonians 5:22- Abstain from the appearance of evil.
Romans 13:14- Make no provision for the lusts of the flesh.
It is because of these passages that I do not drink, nor do I advocate or support drinking in any form.
I hope this focus on the scriptures will satisfy the discussion here, and if further discussion is needed, then please contact me directly. My intention is to only say what the scriptures say.
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I agree with the above post (92). I apologize for not using enough scripture ahead of time.
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I also agree with posts 92 and 89. I only regret that I didn’t use so much scripture at the beginning.
At this point, I see no further good coming from any posts. If anyone feels like they need to discuss the issue further, then I’d ask that those conversations take place privately.
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The whole of these are interesting. i was priviledge to read this only the day before yesterday i.e. 11th September, 2008. My only conclusion is that as some of the brethren had posted, if a congregation wishes to take a stand on drinking, i.e. preach against drinking at all, it is no problem for it will edify the church, but let us all be guided, the bible in NO way make reference to drinking as a sin. all this fuss about drinking being sinful is PURELY manmade. I want to congratulate the “starter” of this discuss and pray that GOD will give us all a perfect understanding of His words.
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nate, I just stumbled upon this old post of yours and actually read all of the comments… All I can think to say is, “WOW.”
What a fun bunch you used to run with. And I’m sure many of them were great guys, but judging solely from some of their comments, many look like first year pledges for the pharisee fraternity. And many clearly hadn’t read the comments or the post they were commenting on – almost comical.
This sort of thing (not limited to drinking) is actually one of the things that helped me see the way out of my fundamental group (1 true church crew). The “chosen-one-true-church” talked so much about doing things god’s way, but then, like these people, would draw hard lines on things not found in the bible – casting those out who didn’t see it their way.
Sad really. They were so concerned about doing things the biblical way, needing scriptural authority for everything they did, but then somehow didn’t need scriptural authority for defining sins and casting people in hell… I guess it was supposed to be inherent knowledge. Why is it that the fundamentals are most likely deficient in fundamental love?
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