In the comment section of my last post, several points were made about Matthew 24. It’s not the easiest passage to come to terms with. When I was a believer, I had trouble nailing down exactly what was being talked about in this chapter, because much of the language is figurative, and… well… a straight reading of the chapter can be a bit problematic for Christians. To illustrate, let’s jump in and take the entire chapter piece by piece:
Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple. 2 But he answered them, “You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”
3 As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
So Jesus tells the disciples that the temple will be torn down, so they ask him 2 or 3 questions, depending on how you read this: 1) When will the temple be destroyed? 2) What will be the sign of your coming? 3) What will be the sign of the end of the age?
“Your coming” and “end of the age” could be tricky. They’re vague enough that people could get into some heavy speculation about what they might mean. Most of us, if we’re just allowing the passage to speak for itself, probably assume these terms are talking about the “Day of Judgment,” the “end of the world,” the “final reckoning.” And there’s good reason for thinking that. The book of Matthew talks about the Day of Judgment a fair amount (Matt 10:15, 11:22, 24, 12:36, 42). In fact, there are two passages that are worth looking at in more detail. We’ll look at one now, but we’ll save the other for the end of the post.
The first is the “Parable of the Weeds,” which can be found in Matt 13:24-30. The explanation of that parable is given in verses 36-43:
Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples came to him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field.” He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
Verses 47-50 say the same basic thing. This is what I think the disciples are asking about here in Matt 24. I’m sure some of you feel differently, and I’d like to hear your thoughts in the comment section. But for now, I’m going to assume they’re asking about the Day of Judgment.
Let’s continue:
4 And Jesus answered them, “See that no one leads you astray. 5 For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are but the beginning of the birth pains.
So the disciples seem to be asking about the destruction of the temple, as well as the Day of Judgment. It could be that they were wrong to assume that these 2 or 3 questions they asked had anything to do with one another, but Jesus doesn’t correct them — he simply starts answering. He says there will be false Christs and political unrest, as well as natural disasters. But the end won’t happen yet.
9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. 10 And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. 11 And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. 12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
So after the false Christs, political upheaval, and natural disasters, Christians will become persecuted by everyone. Many Christians will fall away because of it, but the gospel will still be preached and it will go throughout the entire world. Then the end will come.
Of course, much of this is still pretty vague. When are there not wars and rumors of wars? When are there not natural disasters? And what degree of religious persecution is Jesus referring to here?
15 “So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, 18 and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. 19 And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! 20 Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
This seems to be speaking more about the destruction of Jerusalem, since it focuses on Judea. Referencing the “abomination of desolation” could refer to almost anything. In the Book of Daniel, it seems to reference Antiochus Epiphanes, but he had died long before Jesus’ time. It’s hard to say what Jesus may have interpreted it to mean.
Since this section seems to deal with the fall of Jerusalem, it would have been a great time for Jesus to tell the disciples that Judgment Day would come many centuries later. But he doesn’t do that. Instead, he seems to roll right into a description of the end times:
23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand. 26 So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.
He warns them to not be led away by false Christs. And I think verse 27 is saying that when the “Son of Man” comes, everyone will know it. There will be no need to “spread the word” — it will be evident.
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
This passage says that after the preceding events, the Son of Man will come with great power and glory. His angels will gather the elect from the entire earth. What could this be, but the Judgment? It matches up very well with Jesus’ explanation of the “Parable of the Weeds” that we read earlier. Matthew 24 then follows up with this section:
32 “From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.
So when you see these things happen, you’ll know that the time is near. Verse 34 then says that these events would occur within their lifetime. Which events? All of them. Of course, that didn’t happen. And that’s why so many Christians wrangle with this passage and try to find another meaning for it. It’s also important to notice an earlier passage in Matthew that says the same thing (Matt 16:26-28):
For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul? For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done. Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”
Jesus apparently expected the end of the world to occur within a few decades at the most. 2000 years and a lot of other failed “end of the world” prophecies later, and we’re still here.
But what about the rest of the chapter? Does it say anything to make us rethink the notion that Jesus’ prediction of the end of the world was so wrong?
36 “But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only. 37 For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, 39 and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left. 42 Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
45 “Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom his master has set over his household, to give them their food at the proper time? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. 47 Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions. 48 But if that wicked servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed,’ 49 and begins to beat his fellow servants and eats and drinks with drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know 51 and will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
So Jesus goes on to say that no one, only God, knows the day and hour that the end will come. Jesus himself didn’t even know. Does that change things? Does that mean that his earlier decree can be ignored? I don’t think so. Jesus (more than once) said that the end would come within a generation. The passage we just read simply says that the exact day and time was unknown. Jesus gave them a time range of decades, but could be no more specific than that.
This chapter, both in the way the disciples asked their questions and in the way Jesus answered them, gives the impression that Rome’s destruction of Jerusalem would herald the coming end of the world. If you think about it, that’s not all that surprising. Jerusalem fell in 70 AD, and most scholars believe the gospel of Matthew was written 10-20 years after that event. We don’t know who the author of Matthew was, but he was obviously very focused on the Mosaic Law — it’s likely that he was Jewish, or at least a proselyte. Imagine the shock he would have felt when Jerusalem fell! How could God allow that to happen, especially so soon after the “Messiah” had come? I don’t find it surprising that such a Christian would assume that signs like these must mean the end of the world was coming. And if Jesus was a real person, it’s possible he preached that the end was near as well. Every generation, a handful of people make doomsday prophecies. Some of the Old Testament prophets did too. But regardless of the author’s motivation, the end result still seems rather evident: Jesus (or at least the gospel writer) believed the end of the world was a few short years away, and he was dead wrong.
Like I said, when I was a Christian, I struggled to “make sense” of Matthew 24, because I just knew it couldn’t mean what it “seemed” to say. Now that I no longer have to make passages fit the end result I’m looking for, passages like this seem much clearer to me. But what do you think? Am I totally off in my analysis?
Finding Truth 
Don’t let these boys razz you to much Marc, as long as you believe in a higher power and not spontaneous generation, you will never be right in their eyes. 😉
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Nan, Luke 21:28. Arch, my dad was probably an agnostic or atheist. He died at 58 when I was 20 and serving in the military overseas. He never talked to me about any beliefs he had, but he did talk about the history of the Greeks. Laurie, I enjoy the give and take.
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But Laurie, without spontaneous generation, where did Seth’s and Cain’s wives come from, and all of those other names you listed on the other thread? Inquiring minds want to know —
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Marc, don’t let Laurie mislead you, though she DOES have a bit of a temper, she enjoys the give and take too.
Plus she’s crazy about me – likes me almost as much as a goat!
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RE, Luke 21:28: Yeah, well, see, that was when people believed gods lived in the sky, which was a time before we went to the moon without having a near-angel collision, a fact of which Yeshua, “son of god,” seems as ignorant as everyone else of the time (as well as at least one of the present, Laurie). But since we’re in the neighborhood of Luke 21:28, that places us right next door to Luke 21:32, “Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not be fulfilled til all pass away.” Which in turn, brings us back to Matthew 24! See how well that worked out?!
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Here is what CS Lewis had to say about the 2nd Coming and the End.
“Say what you like,” we shall be told, “the apocalyptic beliefs of the first Christians have been proved to be false. It is clear from the New Testament that they all expected the Second Coming in their own lifetime. And worse still, they had a reason, and one which you will find very embarrassing. Their Master had told them so. He shared, and indeed created, their delusion. He said in so many words, ‘this generation shall not pass till all these things be done.’ And he was wrong. He clearly knew no more about the end of the world than anyone else.”
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Arch, my take on the the creation story of Genesis is Christ centric. Adam and Eve are the ancestors of Jesus of Nazareth and the first human beings to be given a spirit. The genealogies of Genesis are meant to establish this, however they are often misread. Instead of assuming a direct father son relationship, I believe that they are generations of patriarchs were the begetting of the next patriarch is mentioned to establish blood relationship, but the actual birth of the next patriarch took place in the same year as the death of the previous patriarch. There are some exception were the begetting and the naming are combined. This approach creates a timeline beginning about 14,000 years ago, a time that corresponds to the beginning of the Neolithic age and the development of agriculture. On this time line the time of Noah would have been about 8,000 years ago and corresponded to massive ice melts and sea level changes that could have caused serious local flooding in what is now called the Persian Gulf. This also brings us back to what is meant by a generation. I believe that we are currently living in the generation of Jesus Christ, A.D. 2013.
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“the actual birth of the next patriarch took place in the same year as the death of the previous patriarch.”
I’m not sure if I’m understanding this correctly. In genesis, it says at what age a given father “begat” his son, and then also at what age that father died, and so on.
If I’m missing an obvious point, please forgive me, but i’m not understanding where the bible points to a timeline beginning 14,000 years ago.
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But Marc, isn’t that a bit like finding pictures in the clouds? We can all find shapes there if we try hard enough. Genesis 5 and 11 both give the ages people were when they had the next link in the genealogy, so saying each name picks up at the death of the one before it isn’t really borne out by the text. In fact, a straight reading of the text (letting it speak for itself) lays out the genealogy in the way that everyone has always understood — there’s no way to get to 14,000 years.
Instead, because we know more about science and history now, we have to turn passages on their head and redefine terms to get anywhere close to making Genesis literal. But these same kinds of gymnastics could be employed to justify any culture’s creation myths.
If you realize that the Bible is not inerrant, why try so hard to rationalize these passages that can’t literally be true?
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William, It is illustrative that Jesus is referred to as the Son of David even though they did not share a father son relationship.
Nate, Just because the Bible is not inerrant does not mean it has no basis in truth. The reading does allow for different understandings. The understanding of the word “day” is illustrative. It can mean 24 hours, the hours of daylight, or a period of time associated with specific events. The days of Creation and the Day of the Lord are periods of time associated with specific actions by God. Evaluating possibilities and probabilities is not the same as asserting certainties.
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Marc, well right… Like in Matthew 1:1 where it says “jesus the son of David, the son of Abraham…” We all get that because the other parts of the bible gives detailed accounts of David and Abraham – who they were, who their parents were, who their children were, when they lived, etc. That’s not where I’m confused. Matthew 1 even goes on to clarify that point in the verses immediately following 1.
I thought you were saying that in genesis, where Adam begat seth, seth begat… could be counted back to 14,000 years. I dont get that because it says at what age Adam begat Seth, and what age Adam died. It says what Age Seth was when he had his son, and at what age Seth died. And it continues in that fashion. It is written in a much more specific and literal detail than matthew 1:1.
It looked like you were saying that even though the bible says that, that is in fact incorrect. Seth was born in the year that Adam died, and so on? That’s what I dont get. Did I misunderstand?
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and marc, genesis 1 seems to define what a day is. “And the morning and night were one day…”
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Interesting outlook, Marc, with some of which I can actually agree. There was indeed an actual flood that took place during the Jemdet Nasr period in 2900 BCE, in Shuruppak, a Sumarian city-state located on the Euphrates River in what to day is central Iraq. The Euphrates River overflowed its banks to a depth of 15 cubits, or 22.5 feet, covering what today we might envision as three counties. The king of Shuruppak, Ziusudra, escaped the flood by hastily boarding a trading barge, loaded with cotton, cattle and beer (oh my!) and floated on down to the gulf. The same 15 cubits are used in the plagiarized biblical story.
The true story became legendary when it was used as a side-story in the first recorded literary work of fiction, “The Epic of Gilgamesh,” the story of a young warrior’s quest for eternal life, and in his search, he seeks out “Utinapishtum,” a fictional king intended to represent King Ziusudra. Ut related that when the tempest ended, which lasted one week, he sent out a dove, and later, a raven, to test for dry land – the raven didn’t return. Ut disemb-arked and made an offering, about which he said, “The gods smelled the savor, the gods smelled the sweet savor and collected like flies over a sacrifice.” Does that remind you of anything? Say, for example, Gen 8:21, that tells us that after Noah sacrificed, “the Lord smelled the sweet savor.”
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That has always been a bone of contention to you theists – the so-called “prophecies” maintain that the “Messiah” will come from the lineage of David, yet if Joseph is NOT his father, and since women were property, thus Mary’s lineage, even if we knew it, is discounted, Yeshua couldn’t possibly have fulfilled that prophecy. Further, if we’re going to establish the date by virtue of the alleged birth of Yeshua, the year would be 2009, rather than 2013, as the NT clearly states that he was born in the time of Herod, who died in 4 BCE.
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William and Arch, thanks for the questions. I have to take a break to earn a few bucks, but I will return with some answers late this afternoon or early this evening.
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Marc, I would like to expand on Arch’s comment (related to looking up to find God).
The people who wrote the bible lived in a time when there was a division between the earth, the sky, and Heaven. The following, from my book, illustrates how the people of the first century envisioned the earth …
I find it somewhat incredible that Christians today, who have known for years that earth is a planet located in a galaxy within a vast universe, still believe in a God that is somewhere up there … above the sky,
Further, do you really believe the “Son of Man” is one day going to appear (return) in a cloud (from the upper firmament)? (Luke 21:32)
Actually,I suppose my question is moot considering that Jesus said “this generation will not pass away until all things have taken place.”
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I really wish that WordPress had the kind of format that allowed for the uploading of images, as I have one, Nan, that perfectly illustrates what you’re describing. It can be found here, in a section of the book, “God, Reason, and the Evangelicals,” by N. F. Gier (not you, by any chance, is it?), from a section entitled, “The Three-Story Universe.”
Yes, it would appear that this young man, in his 30’s, who was also the god who created the entire universe, is going to return to us in a lower-atmosphere, cumulonimbus cloud, though the reason for that choice of vehicle is not entirely clear. A man, who could levitate, shouldn’t need to hitch a ride on a passing cloud, which would be a lot like riding in an elevator that had no floor, and one would imagine that an omniscient god would know even then, of VTO aircraft. Clouds are SO passé.
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Ah, Marc, Yes! I’ve seen that image before and I agree, it appears to be pretty consistent with the ancient thought. Read Genesis 1 and this is the picture it paints.
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HA! No, Arch. N.F. Gier is not me. But i do like some of his/her thinking.
Look on Nate’s “Books I’ve Read” page and you’ll find my book.
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Arch, I told my self I wasn’t going to answer any of your ridiculous questions, but since you won’t let this one go, I am going to assume your mensa brain is starting to fail and let you in on a little secret. The scriptures are not supposed to tell you everything. What they do tell you, is about the line that Ya choose to fulfill his promises. We don’t know if Adam and Eve were in the garden for a year or a thousand years. We don’t know that YHWY didn’t create other people. There are a million explanations, but none of them would suffice, to you. So there is no point in discussing it.
And I do not like you almost as much as my goats.
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William, Regarding the Genesis accounts, if the the word day can be understood figuratively, so can the terms evening and morning to define a beginning and an end. It is interesting that in ancient times the beginning of one day and ending of the next was determined by the setting of the Sun. However we know that the atmospheric conditions of the early earth precluded the view of the Sun, Moon, and stars from the Earth’s surface until the fourth day when the atmosphere had been cleared by the production of oxygen. Genesis 2:4 also confirms that the use of term day should be understood as figurative. Regarding the genealogies, it is interesting that the New Testament genealogies do not include the life spans of the patriarchs, but the Old Testament does. I believe that is so to develop a time line. As I said in my previous post the exceptions would be where the begotten is also given their name, which indicates a direct father son relationship.
Nate, Is it more than coincidence that the sequence of creation presented in Genesis agrees completely with what our scientific observations confirm?
Arch, An adopted son in the ancient world had the same standing in law as one who was blood relative of his father. That the Virgin Mary was a daughter of Israel is not in dispute. This gives Jesus legal connection to King David, and physical connection to Israel, Abraham, and Adam.
Nan, The spiritual realm is in another dimension from time/space. The interface may be understood like a wormhole. The perspective regarding the Lord’s return will be geocentric, so the point of interface may be elevated to a point to facilitate the revelation.
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Why Laurie, how nice you came back, I’ve missed you!
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Why not? Doesn’t my “immortal soul” rely on what the scriptures tell me? If so, shouldn’t YOUR god be more explicit?
If I may liberally translate your statement, it would have to be, “no matter how illogical the scriptures may be, you HAVE to believe every word of them – only the gullible shall enter the kingdom of heaven!”
As for, “And I do not like you almost as much as my goats.” much like, “Pepé la Pew,” I like a lady who plays hard to get —
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I am married Arch, besides that, you are old enough to be my father. I do get a kick out of you (in the most irritating way) though.
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Arch, The Scriptures are only one facet of the revelation God has provided us with. As I have pointed out before, the Scriptures are not inerrant, yet they are reliable as a component of the total revelation of God in the context of Holy Tradition and scientific observation.
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Laurie, I am beginning to get a kick out of old Arch myself, and I am older than dirt.
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