When I was a Christian, one of the biggest reasons I had for believing the Bible was that it contained actual prophecy — or so I thought. I mean, if a book gave specific, detailed prophecies that no one could have guessed, and then they came true, wouldn’t that be good reason for believing that God may have had something to do with that book? How could a mere human accomplish such a thing? And it’s not just that the Bible sometimes got it right, it always got it right — or so I believed.
According to the Bible, a good test of whether or not someone is a true prophet is the accuracy of their prophecy. Makes sense, I suppose. Just as chefs are judged on the quality of their cooking, so prophets should be judged by the quality of their predictions. In the case of chefs, no one claims that God is required to make them great. But if you could show that someone was a true prophet, that would be fantastic evidence that God might be speaking through them. An unreliable prophet, on the other hand…:
when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him.
— Deut 18:22
An inaccurate prophet is no prophet at all, in other words. He does not speak for God. This is a great litmus test for anyone claiming to have divine revelation. It was my belief that the Bible passed this test with flying colors… but does it?
When the Bible Gets It Right
When I was a Christian, one of prophecies that always stood out to me was that of King Josiah:
And behold, a man of God came out of Judah by the word of the Lord to Bethel. Jeroboam was standing by the altar to make offerings. And the man cried against the altar by the word of the Lord and said, “O altar, altar, thus says the Lord: ‘Behold, a son shall be born to the house of David, Josiah by name, and he shall sacrifice on you the priests of the high places who make offerings on you, and human bones shall be burned on you.'”
— 1 Kings 13:1-2
This is a very specific prophecy. While there’s no timeline given, the prophet says that someone in David’s line would be born who would use that altar to sacrifice false priests and that the man’s name would be Josiah. In 2 Kings 23, this prophecy comes true about 300 years later! This was a prophecy that always stuck in my mind as being too marvelous for any mere mortal to accurately predict — surely God had inspired that prophet!
But as it turns out, the 300 year time difference is misleading. 1 and 2 Kings are just two halves of the same book. The same authors that wrote or compiled 1 Kings 13 also wrote or compiled 2 Kings 23. Therefore, there’s no way to know if that prophet ever existed, much less that he actually gave a prophecy concerning a king who would come 300 years later. In other words, this doesn’t really count as evidence of a true prophecy. Maybe the event really happened, but since both the event and the fulfillment were recorded in the same book, there’s no good reason to take it at face value.
There are other examples we could look at as well, but I think the point comes across. Just because something at first blush appears to be an actual prophecy, it may not be upon closer examination. Still, while this might indicate that the case for the Bible’s inspiration isn’t as strong we first suspected, this would not have caused me to question its inspiration when I was a believer. I would have needed something bigger.
When the Bible Gets It Wrong
Jeremiah 33:17 says this:
“For thus says the Lord: David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel”
When I was growing up, this prophecy was sometimes referred to as a prediction of Christ. Hebrews 1:8 says that the throne was preserved for Jesus, and Acts 2:29-31 says this:
“Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.”
So the literal kingdom of Judah is not what Jeremiah is talking about, according to these passages. Jeremiah was foretelling a time in which Jesus would sit on the throne of an eternal, spiritual kingdom as David’s descendant. But is that really what Jeremiah intended?
If you look at the following verse, Jeremiah 33:18, you see this:
“…and the Levitical priests shall never lack a man in my presence to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offerings, and to make sacrifices forever.”
Can verse 17 still be taken figuratively in light of verse 18? According to books like Hebrews, Jesus became the new high priest forever when he was crucified and rose from the dead. So could that be the application of this particular prophecy? No. Jeremiah specifies that the priests would be Levitical — in other words, they would be of the tribe of Levi, which is the only tribe that was allowed to offer sacrifices. Jesus was not of that tribe. Hebrews gets around this problem by linking Jesus’ priesthood to the way God allowed priests before Moses was given the law — they were granted priesthood based on their caliber, not on their lineage. Hebrews refers to this as the “order of Melchizedek,” since Melchizedek was the most prominent person mentioned in the OT to have this honor. Refer to Hebrews 7 if you’d like more info on this.
It’s very difficult to take verse 18 figuratively, and when taken at face value it’s false. Levitical priests do not offer sacrifices today, and haven’t for a very long time. And since it’s hard to take verse 18 figuratively, it’s hard to take 17 figuratively as well. Once again, it fails as a prophecy because Israel is not a monarchy and there hasn’t been a Davidic king in over 2500 years.
When you’re an inerrantist, as I was, it’s hard to know what to do with this information. Do problems like this mean the entire Bible is wrong, or just that particular book? It turns out there are many more problems littered throughout the Bible. We’ll talk about one more in this post, but for more information, feel free to check out the links listed on the home page.
A very clear example is found in Matthew 2:14-15 where we’re told that when Joseph and Mary fled with the infant Jesus to Egypt, it was to fulfill a prophecy from Hosea 11:1, “out of Egypt I called my son.” However, when you read the passage in Hosea, it says this:
When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.
And from there, Hosea talks about Israel’s unfaithfulness to the Lord in serving after Baal, etc. Obviously, Hosea is talking about the nation of Israel, and there’s no reference at all to any future event, much less the Messiah. Matthew appropriated this text when he (apparently) created the story of Jesus’ family fleeing to Egypt. Matthew calls this a prophecy, but the original text is anything but. So many of the Bible’s prophecies fall apart in this way when researched.
While actual prophecy fulfillment would go a long way in supporting the notion that the Bible is inspired, in practice, it just doesn’t work out that way. Not only do the apparent prophecies get weaker upon inspection, but some of them are simply false. So if accurate prophecies should make us think the Bible is inspired, what should inaccurate prophecies make us think?
Finding Truth 
“Actually sorry KK once I realized you were trying to change the subject of what I asked I just kind of scanned through and only read this closely and its all I will respond to with no apologies.”
I’m not trying to change anything , Mike. This is your standard ploy when you don’t get what you want. I am calling you on the carpet just like you did Nate. It’s very easy to detect that when you are the one being questioned, just like the Wizard in the Wizard of Oz, you are standing behind the curtain , huffing and puffing until someone pulls the curtain open.
You’re really not serious about having a meaningful discussion here and the sooner people realize this and ignore you , the better off they will be. You are everything you have accused everyone here of being.
I have no influence on anyone here , but I will be the first to ignore you from this moment forward. I know this has you trembling in your boots (laughing) but you are not to be taken as a serious poster. You like being the blowhard and “the classroom bully” and you do it very well.
I will join this blog again when Nate decides to do a new post. I don’t believe in banning anyone. I hope Nate doesn’t ban you. I just hope everyone decides to ignore you for being the blowhard and bully you are.
Thanks Nate as always for allowing my comments here.
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“Lets take medical science as an example. Many of the examples for physical affliction in the NT were blamed on demon possession. Jesus became famous for supernaturally casting out demons in order to heal those who were afflicted. Today 99.9% of all physical afflictions on this planet are due to scientifically discovered causes such as viruses, cancers, birth defects, etc, etc, etc. No serious person believes that these afflictions are due to demon possession’
see now. Now that I have read this, my reply is going to be one of those posts where Nate is going to get his hackles up because when I read nonsense like this I AM going to call it what it is
** [it seemed like Mike wanted me to edit his post here, so I obliged him] — Nate **
OF all the healings Jesus did most had nothing to do with demon possession. In fact connecting a disease to a demon possession was relatively rare. Fevers were cured without reference to demons, issues of blood were healed without reference to demons, the birth defects of blindess were healed without reference to Demons, leprosy without reference to Demons. There is not a single incident of cancer in the NT claimed to be caused by Demons and no teaching of the church claimed that sickness in general were caused by demons. Further to rebut your silly charge several passages clearly distinguished most diseases from being demon possessed. Heres just one listing f a whole bunch of various diseases and pains and yes even lunacy and paralysis as separate from demon possesions.
Matthew 4:24 (Darby)
24 And his fame went out into the whole [of] Syria, and they brought to him all that were ill, suffering under various diseases and pains, and those possessed by demons, and lunatics, and paralytics; and he healed them.
You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about just as I say you guys rarely do.
Nate begs that you are all so much more educated than the average Christian but you continually make these manifestly ignorant claims so his claims are not credible in that area either..
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“I’m not trying to change anything , Mike. This is your standard ploy when you don’t get what you want. ”
Seems like someone has had a hissy fit because they didn’t get what they want. I put a question to you. You don’t want to answer I am under no obligation to have you work your way around it. My call, of the last few post I am doing nothing but answering people posting to me. Stop and move on to whatever you want.
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YOu know what? enough silliness for the week and month. I now return you to your regular rubberstamp programming. The NT suggests cancer is caused by demon possession claim from KK is just tooo much ignorance for me to process
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Matthew 17:18 ESV
And Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of him, and the boy was healed instantly.
Matthew 12:22 ESV
Then a demon-oppressed man who was blind and mute was brought to him, and he healed him, so that the man spoke and saw.
Matthew 10:1 ESV
And he called to him his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every affliction.
Matthew 8:16 ESV
That evening they brought to him many who were oppressed by demons, and he cast out the spirits with a word and healed all who were sick.
Mark 9:17-29 ESV
And someone from the crowd answered him, “Teacher, I brought my son to you, for he has a spirit that makes him mute. And whenever it seizes him, it throws him down, and he foams and grinds his teeth and becomes rigid. So I asked your disciples to cast it out, and they were not able.” And he answered them, “O faithless generation, how long am I to be with you? How long am I to bear with you? Bring him to me.” And they brought the boy to him. And when the spirit saw him, immediately it convulsed the boy, and he fell on the ground and rolled about, foaming at the mouth. And Jesus asked his father, “How long has this been happening to him?” And he said, “From childhood.
Luke 13:11 ESV
And there was a woman who had had a disabling spirit for eighteen years. She was bent over and could not fully straighten herself.
Luke 11:14 ESV
Now he was casting out a demon that was mute. When the demon had gone out, the mute man spoke, and the people marveled.
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So What? I knew you would do that nonsense. Of course there are some passages . I said there were some but its relatively rare. If I were to post every healing that had nothing to do with demons it would go for pages and pages. You are so pathetic and dishonest you posted passages that don’t even say what you are you are tying to say. Observe
Demon oppression SEPARATE From healing the sick
Matthew 8:16 ESV
That evening they brought to him many who were oppressed by demons, and he cast out the spirits with a word AND ealed all who were sick.
Demon possession SEPERATE from healing the sick
Matthew 10:1 ESV
And he called to him his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, AND to heal every disease and every affliction.
Get an honest bone in your body
Meanwhile the overwhelming evidence form the NT is that sickness can and is separate from the vast majority of sicknesses with none of your pure grade A garbage that cancer and viruses were in any way connected to demons. Pure baloney. .
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lol… I knew it but wanted to double check. In addition to citing verses that said nothing what he claims he also lists the same event twice because
Mark 9:17-29 ESV
Matthew 17:18 ESV
Are the same story just related in more than one Gospel
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Mike, do demon possessions happen today?
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@Mike.
So, Mike, please demonstrate how the character Jesus of Nazareth is the Creator of the Universe and I will be forced to accept that the universe had a supernatural ‘hand’ in its creation.
I mean, how could I deny it? If it did it did, all I ask is for you to demonstrate how Jesus is that supernatural element.
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“** [it seemed like Mike wanted me to edit his post here, so I obliged him] — Nate **”
🙂
Nope Mike wanted no such thing. No need to lie (again) just to try and be cute He meant it when he said that it was total drivel by somebody who obviously did not have the honesty to read the NT without inserting his own garbage into it.
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“So, Mike, please demonstrate”
Sure Ark I can get to that
right after you answer my question. remember?
“I am not even at the point of “using a god” as the supernatural cause. I am asking how you deal with the ramifications of a supernatural root to reality due to cause and effect INESCAPABLY having to terminate at some point in reality whether thats an unexplained God. an unexplained Universe or an Unexplained can of beef that created the universe.”
Why are you guys so scared to answer a simple basic question? Its just a simple little question about reality
its really quite amusing though 🙂 🙂
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“Mike, do demon possessions happen today?”
That was what KC was asking when he tried to lyingly imply that medical science had invalidated the NT because it allegedly implied that the root of diseases was demon possession? Do tell! 🙂 You should step in more often and translate atheistese.
A family member of mine who is honest, never been on drugs or drank has claimed to see a ghost as clear as day in front of him and his friend has corroborated the story so I have no reason to doubt them because of a priori. I also have a dear friend who claims to have been havings some issues that she believed was related to demons that resolved instantly after prayer toward that end (she is now as a result one of the sanest people I know). So I suppose they do
BTW sorry no special treatment. Are you going to answer my question or continue to find excuses to run away? See my post above if you need a refresher.
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.
Accepting that a deity or supernatural entity may be behind it all is no big deal for me. Deism does not impact on my worldview at all.
There is no verifiable evidence; even fine-tuning can have a naturalistic outcome.
So youu see, deism ( for me) is nether here nor there.
If there is something ‘out there’ then so be it.
Question answered. Now your turn….
Explain how the character Jesus of Nazareth is the Creator of the Universe.
Away you go…
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Nate, how did demons manifest themselves in the NT ? Causing someone to be deaf, mute, blind, foaming at the mouth, stiffness, physically bent over, throwing down of one’s body, are some of the descriptions used in the NT.
I was accused of misusing these 2 scriptures.
Matthew 10:1 ESV
And he called to him his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every affliction.
Matthew 8:16 ESV
That evening they brought to him many who were oppressed by demons, and he cast out the spirits with a word and healed all who were sick.
I believe the first scripture could mean they healed every disease and every affliction including the one’s caused by the demons who possessed some of the people there. This meaning could also pertain to the 2nd scripture when ALL were healed including the ones who were demon possessed.
I was also accused of using the same story in 2 different scriptures. Guilty as charged. The bible is full of examples of stories being told multiple times. Some were the same stories with different characters. Some Christians are quite willing to cite both if it is in their favor . 🙂
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“Question answered.”
Nope you didn’t answer squat. You just did what you have done every time – fudged yourself around answering. I asked you how you deal with the ramifications of the supernatural being inescapable in any world view NOT whether you would accept a deity or your views on whether deism would be a problem for you bla bla bla . In addition this
“There is no verifiable evidence; even fine-tuning can have a naturalistic outcome.”
is just incoherent as any answer to my question
Again I repeat and will even further clarify
“I am not even at the point of “using a god” as the supernatural cause. I am not asking if you are a deist. I am not asking you what came before the big bang. I am not claiming you should be a theist I am asking how you deal with the ramifications of a supernatural root to reality due to cause and effect being INESCAPABLY and having to terminate at some point whether thats an unexplained God. an unexplained Universe or an Unexplained can of beef that created the universe.”
If you can’t comprehend the question then ask and I will try to reclarify but as I said before its non negotiable you will answer the question or I will not answer any of yours. Kiddie land time is over. You will not just try and brush off giving a serious reasoned answer just so you can get your own question answered. Put on the big boy pants now and get serious.
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I understand the question perfectly, thank you.
As there is no verifiable evidence of a supernatural root I don’t have to deal with any ramifications.
Yes I understand cause and effect, but to state categorically that this is the result of a supernatural root is fallacious.
And even if it is true,it does not bother me. It has never impacted on my life.
Question answered.
Now, kiddie time over, Mike, best you put up or push off. Please explain how the character Jesus of Nazareth created the universe.
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“I believe the first scripture could mean”
ROFl…You studied at the Nate ‘s Bible Contradiction University too long KK. When a passage uses a conjunction to separate two things as distinct you fall back to well I err think that it could still mean they are not distinct and separate.
Too intellectually dishonest.
This is why you guys take such offense to my “style” I call a spade a spade when you are fibbing instead of telling you “oh I understand”. and I call you on hypocrisy when you are in fact guilty of it.
“how did demons manifest themselves in the NT ? Causing someone to be deaf, mute, blind, foaming at the mouth, stiffness, physically bent over, throwing down of one’s body, are some of the descriptions used in the NT. ”
Why Yes KK the NT does indicate that demons don’t play nice. They are after all are…..ummm…demons?
but to insinuate, with all the vast amount of passages out there that the NT has with ZERO reference to diseases being caused by demon possession, that somehow it is saying that diseases are based in demon possession (even mentioning viruses and Cancer) is just you playing fast and loose and straight up lying on the text. The New testament CLEARLY and unequivocally suggests that diseases have roots in other causes than demon possession even if in a few cases demons may inflict some people with physical hardships.
Cased closed …. the end
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“Yes i know but many atheists are not very skeptical of claims that everything came out of nothing which is quite the rage among you.” – mike
is this true? I thought that most scientifically minded people believed in the big bang, because evidence supports that, and that the epicenter of that bang was the singularity.
Where the singularity came from, no one knows, what made it explode, no one knows for sure, although I think there are hypotheses – but i didnt think anyone claims it just popped out of nowhere. Most scientifically minded people would like to know the origin and the causes.
is that really supernatural… finding natural causes for things?
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“The New testament CLEARLY and unequivocally suggests that diseases have roots in other causes than demon possession even if in a few cases demons may inflict some people with physical hardships.
Cased closed …. the end”
yeah, I never thought the bible said that demons caused diseases, but i dont recall it saying where diseases came from at all. Mike, where are those passages that state the root causes of disease?
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“I understand the question perfectly, thank you.
As there is no verifiable evidence of a supernatural root I don’t have to deal with any ramifications.”
🙂 See? So you admit to not answering because you claim that it does not need to be answered.
Well a t least you are not lying anymore about answering…oh wait..
“Question answered.”
ah still lying
Meanwhile theres all evidence. ALL of science points to it. everything in the natural world is caused by something. thats one of the core things that makes it “natural” or as we are wont to say “everything has a rational explanation”
But since science points us to a chain of falling dominos cause and effects we have to deal with the fact that there are only one of two choices
A) the dominos just keep on falling forever and absolutely nothing is causing the chain ( a miraculous event if ever there were one) because there can be no explanation to an infinite regress or
B) cause and effect terminates at some point and the universe so has a supernatural reality that gets it going for which there is no cause and effect.
elementary
So again your last chances to ACTUALLY answer the question is dwindling
““I am not even at the point of “using a god” as the supernatural cause. I am not asking if you are a deist. I am not asking you what came before the big bang. I am not claiming you should be a theist I am asking how you deal with the ramifications of a supernatural root to reality due to cause and effect being INESCAPABLY and having to terminate at some point whether thats an unexplained God. an unexplained Universe or an Unexplained can of beef that created the universe.”
Answer it or run away again. matters not to me but it might to you if you wish me to answer your questions because until you do…that just aint happening
Its a pretty simple and logical question. That you all try and make up excuses not to answer it speaks volumes
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“but i didnt think anyone claims it just popped out of nowhere. Most scientifically minded people would like to know the origin and the causes.”
Can someone introduce Wiliam to the name Lawrence Krauss (just one of the foremost atheists next to Dawkins) who has a whole book begging that QM validates everything coming out of nothing which William is claiming no one claims
because I just can’t deal with discussing with him another issue that he demonstrates he knows nothing about
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I qualified the answer, but maybe you didn’t notice?
Now, you are going to explain how the character Jesus of Nazareth created the universe?
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“I qualified the answer, but maybe you didn’t notice?”
Yeah I noticed like I did all the other times – that you didn’t answer the question. Putting on your big boy pants is nowhere in sight. I’ll check back with you in a week to see if you found a pair
Its pretty obvious you need some time to think up a real answer because right now you got nothing
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Ah..as I thought. The same with every Christian. When push comes to shove you have squat.
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“Can someone introduce Wiliam to the name Lawrence Krauss (just one of the foremost atheists next to Dawkins) who has a whole book begging that QM validates everything coming out of nothing which William is claiming no one claims”
thanks, mike, for taking the time with a simple man like me. I didn’t really make a claim, just asked a question and gave what my understanding was. I’m just a simple man – self educated mostly, so i am sure there are holes in my understanding and education. Thankfully, people that are wise beyond comprehension, like yourself, are here to help me find my way.
heck, it could even be that your god placed you here as a blessing to me; as a divine light, illuminating me out of the depths of dark ignorance. Thank you.
nevertheless, and I think this is important, Krauss or Dawkins or whomever, are not my clergy nor are they of any divine authority to me. But I’ll read up on Krauss since you recommend him.
Did something come from nothing? doesnt seem to male sense to me, as you’ve pointed out, everything in the natural world has a beginning… and if I may add, so far everything we’ve seen or proven has a natural explanation. So I guess I’d have to read Krauss thoroughly before I comment too much on what he has or has not presented. That being said, i have read the bible, which claims its root cause needs no beginning or end, although it too exists in time.
And let’s say a god was the beginning, a being without beginning and without a cause, actually created everything. Not everyone here would be happy with this assumption, but let’s say that is the case; god created it all.
Now how do we determine which god? or how many gods?
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