Well, after breaking 2000 comments on the previous thread, I think it’s time to move to a new one. Feel free to continue the conversation here.
Also, I want to make a note about future posts. The tone on this blog for the last month or so has been decidedly different than what it used to be. While that’s definitely made things interesting, I’d like to move back to a tone more in line with the way things used to be. So going forward, I want the comments on all new posts to remain civil. We can all make our points, and I expect to see a wide range of opinions. But I don’t want to get into name-calling and bashing when we can’t all agree on particular issues. Let’s try to stay focused on the points and not get side-tracked with personal stuff. Let’s also keep each comment substantive so we don’t rack up so many comments in such a short period of time that it’s hard for everyone to keep track.
If you don’t feel like you can participate within those guidelines, then feel free to continue posting within this thread (and any future “Kathy” threads, if they’re needed), because I won’t be enforcing any guidelines here. But if you want to comment on any other posts, you’ll need to abide by the rules I just laid out. Otherwise, your comment will be subject to deletion, and after a warning, you might find yourself banned from at least that thread, if not the entire blog.
If there are any questions, let me know.
Thanks
Finding Truth 
““Bottom line.. it’s evidence for their beliefs.. but based on the person, it can also be evidence of the Truth of what they are dying for.” – kathy
then that is also the case for every other religion – thereby making this moot.”
Yes, it is also the case for every other religion.. that it “CAN” be evidence for their religion’s truth.
So, sorry, it’s not “moot”. The point is that Christianity has the only real evidence, including the compelling evidence of Christian martyrdom, to support it’s Truth.
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“ Hows the ,mountain relocation program going?” – funny you should ask, Mikey, the mountain seems to be doing a lot of relocating on its own. Here are three websites, with three different sets of coordinates. Must be somebody out there with a lot of faith, moving that mountain around – more than you have, or you’d heal that little girl.
Mt. Precipice: 32°40′58″N 35°17′55″E (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Precipice)
Coordinates: 32.681791° N, 35.298085° E (http://www.sacred-destinations.com/israel/mount-precipice)
+32° 40′ 50”, +35° 17′ 55 (http://israelashscattering.com/locations/item/16)
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Martyrdom is no evidence for truth of anything, Kathy – only for conviction. If I leap off a building because I’m convinced I’m Superman, that doesn’t make it true.
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“Martyrdom is no evidence for truth of anything, Kathy – only for conviction. If I leap off a building because I’m convinced I’m Superman, that doesn’t make it true.”
And someone dying for their faith doesn’t make it true either.. but for Christianity, it’s compelling evidence…. for Superman? by you? not so much…
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“And someone dying for their faith doesn’t make it true either.. but for Christianity, it’s compelling evidence….” – only for the degree of their superstition and gullibility.
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” the mountain seems to be doing a lot of relocating on its own. ………..+32° 40′ 50”, +35° 17′ 55 (http://israelashscattering.com/locations/item/16)”
🙂 Really? Moved 16 miles eh? now if only your link said it was 18 miles away from Nazareth like you claimed not –
“Mount Precipice (or Mount Kedumim) is a mountain JUST OUTSIDE of Nazareth in northern Israel,”
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-a&hs=EwL&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&channel=sb&q=distance+of+nazareth+to+mount+precipice&oq=distance+of+nazareth+to+mount+precipice&gs_l=serp.3…1423162.1464149.0.1465565.39.39.0.0.0.0.332.4146.21j15j1j1.38.0.chm_pq_qw%2Chmrde%3D0%2Chmffs%3D3%2Chmffl%3D3%2Chmffmp%3D0-6%2Chmffot%3Dtrue%2Chmnts%3D3000%2Chmqwl%3D4…0…1.1.49.serp..9.30.3385.VfLJvb_Zma0
and thats measured from within Nazareth not outside of it
so dishonest. Defies Sam Harris and nate’s assertion that you don’t need God to be moral.
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““And someone dying for their faith doesn’t make it true either.. but for Christianity, it’s compelling evidence….” – only for the degree of their superstition and gullibility.”
Said the person who lacks objectivity.
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“Said the person who lacks objectivity.” – when did you say that –?
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No amount of hand waving or denial can erase what you wrote, TB. The words appearing in quotes were posted by you on July 8, 2014 at 12:26 pm—a fact that can be easily verified by following the link provided.
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Kathy, let’s face it: you possess neither objectivity, nor compelling evidence in favor of your position. Your entire argument is a heaping platter of bald assertions smothered in special pleading with a side-order of ad hominems.
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@Kathy, (re – July 29, 2014 at 2:48 pm and following…
My time to engage here is limited, so I’ll try to keep prioritizing. Perhaps it’s best that I not try to give a full response on every point…
About motive of the founders of Christianity, in many or perhaps most cases I don’t see a need to impute deceptive intent to them, when it seems that them just being mistaken will do just fine. People in general are often mistaken about their perceptions. Some are even mentally ill, and predisposed to e.g. hallucination.
In any case, it seems to me that the myriad of conflicting and untrue claims made by many people over centuries–whether various religious claims from mutually-contradictory religions; or alien abductions; or bigfoot sightings–give reason enough to treat all extraordinary claims with skepticism, without burdening myself by explaining every one.
Thus I disagree with your statement, “the unavoidable contention is that it’s one big lie.”
About the “‘Die for a Lie’ Won’t Fly” article:
“1 Cor. 15:6 and Acts 1:15 don’t support the accusation that 500 became 120.”
Remember I asked you not to get hung up on his “simple math” claim (this one), as I’m skeptical of that one myself, and I don’t think it’s key to his argument.
Trying to stick to brass tacks…do you agree with my following premises?
1. The apostle Paul himself stated that if Jesus wasn’t raised from the dead, then the Christian faith is basically wrong. (I Cor. 15:12-19.)
2. It is reasonable to investigate the historicity of the resurrection of Jesus as a proxy to investigating the truth of Christianity as a whole.
3. One of the alleged points of evidence offered in support of the claim of Jesus’ resurrection is that of martyrs–people who believed in this claim so fervently that they gave their lives to support it.
4. As the article states,
If those elements are not all present, then the alleged martyr(s) are not evidence of Jesus’ resurrection.
5. The martyrdom of any Christian who was not an eye-witness to Jesus’ resurrection is not evidence of his resurrection, nor of the truth of Christianity as a whole. Such a martyr testifies to his belief that it is so, but not that it actually is true.
———-
If you agree with all of the above, then please provide primary sources describing the elements in premise 4 above. If not, then which parts do you disagree with? (Using the numbering will help.)
…Again, I may not respond promptly.
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Kathy, (re: July 29, 2014 at 2:50 pm),
From my July 28, 2014 at 9:48 pm comment,
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Ron (re: July 30, 2014 at 4:07 pm),
Definitely Spider-Man, because it’s set in New York, and that’s a real place. And it refers to real buildings there (I think) and events that really happened (right?), so it must all be true. 😛
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One more thing, Kathy (re: July 30, 2014 at 7:55 pm),
(Emphasis mine.)
This seems like a straight-up admission that you’re engaging in special pleading on the martyrs claim. Am I missing something?
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Gah, WordPress… The emphasis was supposed to be on, “And someone dying for their faith doesn’t make it true either.. but for Christianity, it’s compelling evidence….”
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Excellent response, Ratamacue0!
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William, this is a while back but you wrote
“2+2=18 – things that i can understand”
I assume this was a typo, because I don’t understand 🙂
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Thanks, arch. 🙂
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Going to bed, kathy – knock yourself out! Please!
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“No amount of hand waving or denial can erase what you wrote, TB. The words appearing in quotes were posted by you on July 8, 2014 at 12:26 pm—a fact that can be easily verified by following the link provided.”
and no amount of your bared faced lying and your TOTAL lack of of even BASIC integrity will change the fact that I never said jesus never clinically died. What can I say? you meet all kinds of low life on the internet and you are one of them
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:The claim [that martyrs are testimony supporting Jesus’ resurrection] is composed of five elements. It requires:
4.1) A group of individuals;
4.2) Specifically named;
4.3) Who saw a physically resurrected Jesus;
4.4) Willingly dying for this belief; (key issue)
4.5) And not for any other reason.
If those elements are not all present, then the alleged martyr(s) are not evidence of Jesus’ resurrection.”
Number 2 is utter nonsense when applied to an ancient text since in a thousand years or two the identity of those specifically named will not be immediately verifiable. Under that guise you could deny any eye witness testimony to Julius Caesar, Shakespeare, Josephus etc etc. Furthermore you CA have collective eye witness testimony without named names. 200 years from now named names will not matter squat towards 9/11 having happened even if all video tape or author lines in papers was destroyed.
Likewise number four also is dog food since it begs the possible input of motivation that no one can psychoanalyze (Nuero’s desperate illogical begging not withstanding). thousands of years after the fact.
Your requirements being garbage your results are suspect and circular
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“Definitely Spider-Man, because it’s set in New York, and that’s a real place. And it refers to real buildings there (I think) and events that really happened (right?), so it must all be true. :razz”
Yes and had anyone gone to New York at any time after the events were said to have happened people would be have been able to verify the past presence of one Peter Parker.
The good thing about you guys is that your integrity is so easily rendered non-existent since you claim to go with scholarly consensus but then claim Jesus is like a comic book character and not a historical figure which does not agree with said scholarly consensus.
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Rata, you said:
“About motive of the founders of Christianity, in many or perhaps most cases I don’t see a need to impute deceptive intent to them, when it seems that them just being mistaken will do just fine.”
Then I don’t understand the “Die for a lie” narrative.
Further, the Bible is full of claims.. of God’s words and laws and countless events etc.. “mental illness & hallucinations etc couldn’t explain all of it away.. too many events and too many people involved. It’s an extremely unrealistic assertion. Jesus’ very words make Him a liar or those who wrote them a liar.. there’s no other rational option.
About the “‘Die for a Lie’ Won’t Fly” article:
“1 Cor. 15:6 and Acts 1:15 don’t support the accusation that 500 became 120.”
Remember I asked you not to get hung up on his “simple math” claim (this one), as I’m skeptical of that one myself, and I don’t think it’s key to his argument.”
I’m not referring to the math.. I’m referring to the idea that the group of people mentioned in Acts is supposedly those left of the 500 Jesus appeared to. In 1 Cor, Paul says that Jesus appeared to 500 “brothers and sisters”…. and since that appearance hundreds of them STOPPED being believers?.. this doesn’t make any sense.. and nothing in those verses supports this assumption made that the believers decreased since Jesus’ appearance.
“5. The martyrdom of any Christian who was not an eye-witness to Jesus’ resurrection is not evidence of his resurrection, nor of the truth of Christianity as a whole. Such a martyr testifies to his belief that it is so, but not that it actually is true.”
It’s correct that those who didn’t see Jesus resurrection can give eyewitness testimony evidence of His resurrection but it is not correct that people, whether they’ve seen Jesus or not, cannot provided evidential testimony of His existence. Their conviction is evidence.. however powerful it may be.. it’s STILL evidence. And with Christianity, given all circumstances and specifics involved, martyrdom is very powerful evidence. Again, you might not be clear on the definition of evidence.. there are different kinds of evidence and while evidence is not proof.. it can be powerful and corroborative TOWARDS the Truth of the Bible and God’s existence.
“…Kathy, I’m wondering why do you believe that the Bible is God’s message to us? It would help if you’d sum it up, and number your points. I’m thinking you’re appealing to (1) martyrs, (2) fulfilled prophecy, (3) archeology. Is that correct? What am I missing?
I’ve laid this all out before but I’ll do it again..
Yes, the martyrdom of MANY people starting with the first believers who knew Jesus is a major reason I believe the Truth of the Bible. The many fulfilled prophecies, like/ especially the Tyre prophecy and Israel’s “comeback”.. both hugely against the odds of coming true.. the archaeological evidence that supports the details/ historical documentation in the Bible.. the LACK of archaeological evidence disproving the details/ historical documentation in the Bible. Multiple witnesses/ books over hundreds of years, all in doctrinal agreement.
It makes no sense that we are anything OTHER than CREATED beings.. with a Creator. And
it makes no sense that our Creator would make such a great effort to bring forth our existence and not reveal Himself to us.
Christianity has the most compelling evidence by far to support it’s truth.
Christianity provides us with a REASON for our existence.. and it’s the most rational
reason.. nothing else makes nearly as much sense.
I ask again.. maybe YOU can answer this.. since no one else is able to… if you disagree with my last two assertions.. please name the religion that you believe has MORE compelling evidence and gives a better explanation for our existence.
Or, give an argument for why our Creator wouldn’t want us to know Him.
Or, give a better explanation of our existence that doesn’t include a creator..
I know of NOTHING that gives us a more rational explanation that the Bible.
Arch said: “Martyrdom is no evidence for truth of anything, Kathy – only for conviction. If I leap off a building because I’m convinced I’m Superman, that doesn’t make it true.”
me: And someone dying for their faith doesn’t make it true either.. but for Christianity, it’s compelling evidence…. for Superman? by you? not so much…
(Emphasis mine.)
you: This seems like a straight-up admission that you’re engaging in special pleading on the martyrs claim. Am I missing something?”
I don’t understand the “special pleading” claim. I admit I read Arch’s comment too fast and made an incorrect assumption that he was “dying for the “truth” of Superman.. not that he was stating he thought he was superman..
.. but either way, I’m not claiming that someone’s conviction is “proof” of anything.. I’m claiming it is EVIDENCE that CAN corroborate the Truth. If a person believes they are superman and jumps off a building, their belief holds very little weight/ valuable evidence towards the truth of them being superman.. for the obvious reasons. The Truth of Christianity isn’t in the same category as the “truth” of Arch being superman.. it’s a silly comparison.’
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“Their conviction is evidence.. however powerful it may be.. it’s STILL evidence.” – once again, evidence only of their conviction, not that any given event happened.
“the archaeological evidence that supports the details/ historical documentation in the Bible..” – I’ve given you a number of prominent archaeologists who maintain that there is no evidence that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob/Israel, or Moses ever existed, and we know the four who told Yeshua’s story, never met him. What’s left that makes any difference?
“It makes no sense that we are anything OTHER than CREATED beings.. with a Creator.” – It makes every sense that we evolved naturally on this planet and NO sense that there’s a magic spirit out there somewhere manipulating events.
“please name the religion that you believe has MORE compelling evidence and gives a better explanation for our existence.” – why does it have to be a religion, why not a philosophy or a science?
“Or, give an argument for why our Creator wouldn’t want us to know Him.” – can’t do that, my creators, my mamma and my daddy, both wanted me to know them.
“Or, give a better explanation of our existence that doesn’t include a creator..” – abiogenesis.
“I know of NOTHING that gives us a more rational explanation that the Bible.” – sadly, I believe that – you need to expand your horizons.
“The Truth of Christianity isn’t in the same category as the ‘truth’ of Arch being superman.. it’s a silly comparison.” – Again, you’re right – I DO have a better chance of being Superman, than Christianity has of being true!
Tell us Mike, is Kathy the girl you were talking about?
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Portal,
“2+2=18 – things that i can understand”
I assume this was a typo, because I don’t understand ‘
this is sort of the point, i guess. It doesnt make sense to you because you know what 2 + 2 is, it is 4, so if something said that 2 + 2 was 18, you know it’s incorrect – you dont second guess yourself and assume that 18 is correct “somehow” and accept it on the basis that “who ever wrote that is smarter than me and I’m just incapable of fully comprehending their point…”
To me, there are things in the that I never understood that never made me question the bible’s accuracy or truth – like Revelation that you mentioned. A lot of difficult imagery…
But when the bible says that a seed must die before it will grow, or when it gives 2 conflicting genealogies for the same guys, or many of the other things – well, those can be checked, verified and understood like a math problem, and when the math doesnt check out, you can be certain, it just doesnt check out…
does that make sense?
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