Well, after breaking 2000 comments on the previous thread, I think it’s time to move to a new one. Feel free to continue the conversation here.
Also, I want to make a note about future posts. The tone on this blog for the last month or so has been decidedly different than what it used to be. While that’s definitely made things interesting, I’d like to move back to a tone more in line with the way things used to be. So going forward, I want the comments on all new posts to remain civil. We can all make our points, and I expect to see a wide range of opinions. But I don’t want to get into name-calling and bashing when we can’t all agree on particular issues. Let’s try to stay focused on the points and not get side-tracked with personal stuff. Let’s also keep each comment substantive so we don’t rack up so many comments in such a short period of time that it’s hard for everyone to keep track.
If you don’t feel like you can participate within those guidelines, then feel free to continue posting within this thread (and any future “Kathy” threads, if they’re needed), because I won’t be enforcing any guidelines here. But if you want to comment on any other posts, you’ll need to abide by the rules I just laid out. Otherwise, your comment will be subject to deletion, and after a warning, you might find yourself banned from at least that thread, if not the entire blog.
If there are any questions, let me know.
Thanks
Carmen,
“So, which is it? Are we good (and valuable) or aren’t we? Because “sinful”, to me, suggests that we aren’t very good, that we’re tarnished, that we’re somehow not worthy. That we’re somehow LESS than god – I thought we were all made in his image ??
Kathy, pastors hammer away at this dogma – that we are sinful, depraved people who must have a god to straighten us out – and that THEY are the ones who can guide us to him. I don’t buy it; in fact, I call it was it is – bullshit.
I believe in GOOD Kathy – which I believe people have inherently; not god. In fact, I believe MAN made god, not the other way ’round.
As someone else suggested, read some books.”
I’m reading the most important Book. No other book has nearly as much wisdom.
Carmen, you obviously didn’t understand my last comment.. do you think God would give His Son to die for us if we weren’t worthy? You fail to understand.
What ever pastor you had, he failed to understand God’s word.. or he just didn’t care, and as you claim, just wanted the money, whatever it took. Again, as I tried to explain, he has nothing to do with God if he isn’t following God’s word.. the Bible is about God’s love for us.. the parts about hell are few and far between.. it SHOULDN’T be the focus and it certainly shouldn’t be used to scare people into giving their money.
And lastly.. we ARE less than God.. now you’re starting to sound like a Mormon.
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Nan,
“Quote from Age of Reason by Thomas Paine:
But admitting, for the sake of a case, that something has been revealed to a certain person, and not revealed to any other person, it is revelation to that person only. When he tells it to a second person, a second to a third, a third to a fourth, and so on, it ceases to be a revelation to all those persons. It is revelation to the first person only, and hearsay to every other, and, consequently, they are not obliged to believe it.
Jesus Christ wrote no account of himself, of his birth, parentage, or anything else. Not a line of what is called the New Testament is of his writing. The history of him is altogether the work of other people … ”
And this shows a comprehension failure of the author.. or.. lack of objectivity?… this is a common atheist argument.. that men wrote the words so the words can’t be trusted.
The author has gone so far as to trust (for argument’s sake) that there was a revelation to a person. This is clearly a supernatural act.. that again, has been accepted.. but for some reason, that’s where God’s power ends.. He is unable to make sure that what is written by men is what He has spoken/ revealed. He’s taken the effort to reveal His will.. but can’t ensure that it is recorded accurately. I never did understand this “reasoning”.
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William,
““Have you been “coerced into submission” Ruth? Doesn’t look like it.. clearly you’ve CHOSEN, using our free will, to reject God.” – kathy
kathy, i think is an example of missing objectivity. You’re only coming at this from one side, and that is, “god is unquestionably true and the bible is his divine word, and that rejecting the bible is rejecting god.”
“So yes, this is one small example of your lacking of objectivity. It’s just true in your mind and that’s that.”
If that’s the case.. I sure don’t know what the thousands of words I’ve typed have been about. But it’s not true.. I’ve given my conclusion.. backed up by my objective reasoning. And in this blog forum, you are FREE to challenge any of it.. and I’ll defend it. The problem is that you all don’t defend your claims. .. I STILL don’t have an example from you of my “stupid” examples of your lack of objectivity.
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And William..
The martyrdom for santa’s elves doesn’t equal the martyrdom for Jesus. Meditate on this for a few hours…. maybe that’ll do it.
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And Arch.. cute story about your granddaughter.
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Kathy –
There is no such thing as a boogeyman called satan either.
It’s clear, however, that you have been so bamboozled that it’s probably impossible for you to reach any kind of objective viewpoint. I feel for you and your family.
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Kathy,
I didn’t mean to imply that crucifixion and flogging wasn’t horrendous. But what I’ll continue to point out to you is that in light of eternity, which is what we’re talking about, this was hardly a blink of an eye for God. You contend that we will all suffer for eternity for our disbelief because we weren’t appreciative enough of a relatively small sacrifice on God’s part. When you look at the “big picture” you believe that it is just for people to suffer for eternity for mere disbelief in something that is quite possibly all just a myth. You are the person here who starts with the premise, the presupposition, that all if this is absolute truth.
I don’t believe that Jesus went to hell for three days. Because I don’t believe there’s a hell. So that leaves us with his crucifixion, which while horrendous, there are many people who have suffered worse fates. Yes, I’m supposed to bow the knee to a God who sacrificed himself to himself to save me from himself.
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Kathy,
I noticed you didn’t answer my point about freewill.
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Nate, this is actually another example of your lack of objectivity.. we’ve been debating the interpretation of the Bible all throughout these posts.. but your statement about the author implies that he gets the right interpretation.. on everything. Lack of objectivity can most certainly be present.. that’s why I was hoping/ asking for some specific examples.
Can you elaborate on what you mean here? If Nate gives examples, and those examples don’t line up with your interpretation does that mean that the interpretation lacks objectivity and your interpretation is necessarily the correct interpretation….on everything?
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I have no interest in defending people who twist God’s word and His will. I’m trying to explain my understanding of God and His will to you all who continue to make unjust un objective biased claims against Him.
This is exactly what you have been doing. You have been “reminding us” of our future in the fires of hell if we don’t turn from our wicked ways. You’ve encouraged us all to hedge our bets if for no other reason than to escape what’s going to happen to us. They’re not twisting anything you haven’t attempted to use yourself.
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Kathy, if you’re too afraid to read something that may challenge your beliefs, just say so. It’s a bit cowardly to claim you won’t read something because the author isn’t objective when you would have to read him to know. In fact, one might say it’s unobjective.
I have many faults, but one thing I’m proud of its that I have read every single pro-Christian book my dad has asked me to read. I often have trouble getting Christians to return the favor. I wonder who’s being most open-minded?
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“If that’s the case.. I sure don’t know what the thousands of words I’ve typed have been about.” – kathy
neither do the rest of us.
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“The martyrdom for santa’s elves doesn’t equal the martyrdom for Jesus. Meditate on this for a few hours…. maybe that’ll do it.” – kathy
and neither does it equal martyrdom for any other religion. I’m not really sure of the point you’re trying to make.
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“we’re no match for satan” – We’re no match for Loki either! Or the Grimace! Or the Grinch! Or Lex Luthor!
“Satan” comes to us from the Egyptian phrase for “Lord Set,” the god Horus’ evil brother, and so we get: “Set Ten” – the adjective, as in Spanish, follows the word.
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“But it’s not true.. I’ve given my conclusion.. backed up by my objective reasoning. And in this blog forum, you are FREE to challenge any of it.. and I’ll defend it. The problem is that you all don’t defend your claims. .. I STILL don’t have an example from you of my “stupid” examples of your lack of objectivity.” – kathy
this is why this is a pointless discussion, just like I said before. You’ll just say, “nuh-uh, you’re not being objective,” to which i’ll say, “no, it’s you who’s not being objective,” then you’ll post a quote and say, “see, you’re not being objective and this is proof,” to which i’ll reply,”you just didnt understand what was said and you neglected the context,” and then i’ll post a quote from you and say, “this is you being unobjective,” and you’ll just deny it and restart the process again.
in the end, we’ve gotten nowhere. I cant tell if this is atactic you use to avoid reading thomas paine, etc, or to avoid answering other questions we’ve sent to you, or of you just like merry go rounds and like living in circles.
whatever the reason, it’s a waste and gets in the way of the bigger issues.
I’d rather see you comment on the “age of reason” or on these points:
the bible is merely a compilation of men’s claims.
Now, were those claims true?
can those claims be trusted?
They claimed they were speaking for god. what’s the proof? there isnt any? so then what’s the evidence?
1) you provide martyrs, even though every religion and many non-religions have them.
2) you argue existence – which no one knows how that started, but even if you must land on god(s), you must go back to that book of claims to get to jesus.
3) there were miracles, but as it turns out, those dont happen today, and end up being more claims by the same men who claim they speak for god.
4) the fulfilled prophecies we’ve discussed weren’t really prophecies at all, or had to be viewed so figuratively that it’s difficult to show anything precise about them other than location (maybe) in order to claim they’re actually fulfilled.
5) you’ve spoken about 40 authors taking 1500 years to write the bible. But there’s nothing miraculous about men writing books, editing books, and being inspired to write a book or letter after reading an older book.
am I wrong, and have I missed anything?
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Bingo!
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“he has nothing to do with God if he isn’t following God’s word..” – which word is that, Kathy? “Thou shalt not kill?” Or, “Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live?”
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Exactly as predicted – now she has an excuse not to read it, because the author “shows a comprehension failure.” She is so prideful, that she can’t even imagine that the “comprehension failure” might be hers.
RE: “He’s taken the effort to reveal His will.. but can’t ensure that it is recorded accurately.” – apparently not, there are currently 5,686 known versions of New Testament manuscripts, each with minor differences – it he COULD “ensure that it is recorded accurately,” there would be only one. Of course, it’s not ALL his fault, part of that is due to the fact that he doesn’t exist.
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Martyrdom for the fictitious Santa’s fictitious elves, versus martyrdom of a fictitious god’s fictitious son, – I can’t imagine wasting a minute meditating on that, much less a few hours, I’d rather spend those hours enjoying life, increasing my knowledge, making love with someone – ANYthing other than meditating over nonsense.
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“And Arch.. cute story about your granddaughter” – AHA! So you DO read my comments! I THOUGHT so, you sneaky little minx you! Now go to bed, it’s late and you have to get up early —
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“It’s clear, however, that you have been so bamboozled” – speaking of which, Carmen:
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“…I’m supposed to bow the knee to a God who sacrificed himself to himself to save me from himself.” – By George, I think she’s GOT it! But if that makes sense to anyone, “I pity the fool –“
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has anyone died for santa’s elves?
I’m still not sure of the point of this statement… but now i am curious, are there santa’s elves martyrs?
was there a south pole mass shooting, where a gunman approached a child hiding in the library, “renounce santa’s elves or die!”
“never!”
and santa’s elves carried her brave soul to the north pole on a fiery santa’s sleigh.
would this be credible evidence for santa’s elves if there were such martyrs?
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“If Nate gives examples, and those examples don’t line up with your interpretation does that mean that the interpretation lacks objectivity and your interpretation is necessarily the correct interpretation….on everything?” – as I mentioned earlier, Ruth, scientists, for example, assemble facts and put them together, like puzzle pieces, until a picture emerges – theists begin with a picture, and reject any facts, however valid, that don’t lead to the construction of that picture.
Now that the barn door has been opened and the horses gone, because Kathy “asked” us to open it, I suppose it wouldn’t hurt now to quote Thomas Paine, as now, it’s the only way she’ll ever read anything he wrote:
While it would appear that Pain DOES in fact believe Moses actually existed, we must realize that in his time, the Levant had not been gone over with a fine-toothed comb, as it has today, and no evidence of Moses and his quarter-million wandering Jews ANYwhere. We can’t fault him for failing to possess information that wasn’t then available.
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Am I the only one who does? It’s about being a good little sheeple, and Kathy certainly has been that —
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