Well, after breaking 2000 comments on the previous thread, I think it’s time to move to a new one. Feel free to continue the conversation here.
Also, I want to make a note about future posts. The tone on this blog for the last month or so has been decidedly different than what it used to be. While that’s definitely made things interesting, I’d like to move back to a tone more in line with the way things used to be. So going forward, I want the comments on all new posts to remain civil. We can all make our points, and I expect to see a wide range of opinions. But I don’t want to get into name-calling and bashing when we can’t all agree on particular issues. Let’s try to stay focused on the points and not get side-tracked with personal stuff. Let’s also keep each comment substantive so we don’t rack up so many comments in such a short period of time that it’s hard for everyone to keep track.
If you don’t feel like you can participate within those guidelines, then feel free to continue posting within this thread (and any future “Kathy” threads, if they’re needed), because I won’t be enforcing any guidelines here. But if you want to comment on any other posts, you’ll need to abide by the rules I just laid out. Otherwise, your comment will be subject to deletion, and after a warning, you might find yourself banned from at least that thread, if not the entire blog.
If there are any questions, let me know.
Thanks
KATHY: “Sigh.. it’s just more desperation by liberals.. Jesus would NEVER adhere to the liberal beliefs of today. The comparison is absurd.”
THE SANHEDRIN (the supreme religious council in ancient Jerusalem): “Sigh.. it’s just more desperation by liberals.. our Messiah would NEVER adhere to the liberal beliefs of Yeshua ben Yusef and his followers. The comparison is absurd.”
Robert Burns: “O, wad some Power the giftie gie us, To see oursels as others see us!”
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“More common liberal confusion..The govt. isn’t involved in any way.. unlike Marxism.” – Think really, REALLY hard now Kathy – which do you think came first, the Marxist philosophy, or the Marxist government –?
Do you have any problems walking and chewing gum at the same time? I would suspect so —
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“I did’nt post the evidence because the consensus among believers and non believers / historians is that those are the authors. It’s the most accepted view. Yes, now you’ll ask for my proof of that but you know as does most everyone that that’s the truth..”
Sorry for the confusion again, folks – let me once more translate into English from Kathy-ese: “I don’t have to provide evidence for my assertions, because everyone knows that what I say is true.”
No, they DON’T, Kathy – there IS no such consensus, and if you maintain that there is, PROVIDE EVIDENCE! PLEASE take a debate class! Ah’m beggin’ ya!
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“50/50 chance Arch that you are a created being with a Creator. Can’t get more logical than that.. I’m using MATH. And you can’t disprove this statistic.”
Apparently your latest “debate” strategy lies in making unsubstantiated claims, then challenging opponents to disprove them – ain’t how it works, babycakes!
Evidence, please —
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ratamacue: “I think she’s talking about the authors of the gospels. I’m pretty sure this is demonstrably false, but I have neither the time nor the hope that Kathy would accept evidence demonstrating such… but any of you people who have more patience for this than I do should feel free to demonstrate/cite.”
Already did that two months ago, but I’ll repost it here as well.
The authorship of the gospels is unknown. From the Catholic Encyclopedia’s entry on Titles of the Gospels:
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Yes, she is, Rata, and there is a mountain of evidence that it is false, but I’m not going to do all the work of presenting evidence while she sits around filing her nails – it’s her job to substantiate her claim. If she knew anything about debate, she would know that.
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“Kathy, re 50/50, I don’t think you understand how probability works.” – Volumes upon VOLUMES have been written about the things that Kathy doesn’t understand, and likely never will!
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Kathy,
Again, you are demonstrating your refusal to acknowledge Who God is. Try looking at the universe.. it really does display how powerful and complex He is.
PLEASE, Kathy, go to this link. Read the posting (it’s not anti-Christian). Then be sure to click on the link in the first paragraph (“this page”).
After you do this, please come back and explain to me/us exactly who God is.
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Arch,
“God decided, in his mysterious way, who would get sick and who would not, it was entirely the will of god. Then the microscope was invented by men who said to themselves, “I don’t think it happens that way, ” and the rest is medical history.”
Another example of liberal “reasoning” that doesn’t make sense. How does medical knowledge prove God DIDN’T “do it”? It doesn’t.. in any way.
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Ruth,
“Consider this: where do we learn about Paul’s adventure? In Acts! A book that was written by someone else! Who is to say that the author of Acts didn’t embellish the “revelation”? Especially when you consider that Paul himself only briefly mentions it. (Read Galatians 1:2 and 1 Corinthians 15:8.) ”
This is silly.. it’s desperate reaching.. Paul verifies the account in Acts PERSONALLY in his letters. That’s a “1st hand” account.
Who’s to say that any of the Bible isn’t embellished? (I know I’m confusing you all now).. my point being that the Bible itself through all the accounts that have been verified through outside sources is testimony that we can trust the Bible. Along with the vast amount of other evidence.. martyrs and fulfilled prophecies. Based on that, your desperate “who is to say..” “argument” is extremely weak. The Bible has reasonably proven itself to those who apply objectivity. It gets the benefit of the doubt in regards to the “embellishment” claim.
“What is Paine talking about specifically? Which revelation(s)? Again, the Gospels didn’t get passed around between several or hundreds of people.. they are based on first hand accounts.~me
Yes, the “gospel stories” (which were based on Paul’s “revelation”) DID get passed around. How else do you think the people learned about Jesus and his role as “savior”? Keep in mind, however, these were not written versions of the gospels. It was all word-of-mouth circulation. It wasn’t until 50-70 years after Jesus died that anything was put into writing.”
You’ve lost me with the claim that the Gospels came from Paul’s revelations from God. The Gospels were written by either 1st hand witnesses or based on the word from 1st hand witnesses.
I still don’t know what Paine was referring to specifically… which revelations were passed around before being recorded in the Bible.
“I know in your mind you will disregard all of this. But it you would, for a moment, use your “discernment” (Def: The trait of judging wisely and objectively), you will see that Paine is right.”
Right about what??? Again, he can’t be referring to the Gospels which tell us about Jesus and what He did for us.
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Arch,
“THE SANHEDRIN (the supreme religious council in ancient Jerusalem): “Sigh.. it’s just more desperation by liberals.. our Messiah would NEVER adhere to the liberal beliefs of Yeshua ben Yusef and his followers. The comparison is absurd.”
Oh sigh! I never denied that Jesus’ teachings weren’t new/ different. I am stating the FACT that Jesus would NEVER be a liberal today, adhering to your destructive anti God views.
Sorry but liberals don’t “own” the concept of new ideas.. Conservatives have had and do have new ideas too.. really!
And to further point out the irony of liberalism.. your “new” ideas are actually very old ideas.. that have been tried and FAILED.. and cost many lives and lots of suffering along the way. Your ideas are far from new.. you all just *think* they’re new due to ignorance and arrogance.
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Arch,
““More common liberal confusion..The govt. isn’t involved in any way.. unlike Marxism.” – Think really, REALLY hard now Kathy – which do you think came first, the Marxist philosophy, or the Marxist government –?”
The Marxist philosophy is a govt. based philosophy.
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“No, they DON’T, Kathy – there IS no such consensus, and if you maintain that there is, PROVIDE EVIDENCE! PLEASE take a debate class! Ah’m beggin’ ya!”
Then what is the consensus? And what is your proof? For 2 thousand years there HAS been a consensus of who the authors are believed to be based on the evidence we have. If this consensus has changed, which because of the atheist/ liberal propaganda and bias so widespread now in the media and academia.. it may have changed.. so I’m asking you to provide the evidence for your claim. Again, my claim has been the consensus most of the last 2000 years. An objective person wouldn’t demand evidence of something that they know is true.. that it HAS been the consensus.
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Ron,
Not trying to be rude or hurtful, but since most of you are not believers this shouldn’t offend to much, you really can’t quote anything from the Catholic church as proof or evidence. They have very little understanding of the scriptures, and there beliefs are solely based on the writings of Saul of Tarsus.
The language at the time of Yahusha was Aramaic and not greek. While Saul may have spoken Greek, because he was a Roman from the house of Herod, the true apostles surely did not.
Yahusha was a Jew and he taught Torah. Salvation is of the Jews
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““50/50 chance Arch that you are a created being with a Creator. Can’t get more logical than that.. I’m using MATH. And you can’t disprove this statistic.”
Apparently your latest “debate” strategy lies in making unsubstantiated claims, then challenging opponents to disprove them – ain’t how it works, babycakes!
Evidence, please –”
Here’s my evidence.. 2 claims that you are welcome to try and disprove..
There is no empirical (by atheist standards) evidence that we are created beings.
There is no empirical evidence that we are not created beings.
The 50/50 odds are based on atheists standards of empirical evidence..
If we base the odds on overall evidence.. your number drops dramatically.. I
don’t know the actual odds for that but since atheists don’t have any evidence or compelling
argument for another explanation.. I’d say it’s around 99/1 that we are created beings.
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Kathy,
I hate to say it, but you are never going get anyone here to agree with you.
With out some knowledge of Hebrew and Judaism, the scriptures are near impossible to really understand and appreciate. Without that, it seems like a work of man, that has to many holes in it to take seriously. It really has to be searched for like a treasure, and nobody here is willing to do that. Goodnight
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”
Kathy, I’d like to think as highly of you as possible – please quit trying to convince me that you’re as stupid as the above remark would indicate. I guess the age of reason hasn’t yet quite reached your neighborhood.
BTW – why do you call your god “he” – does he have a penis? If so, what does he use it for?
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And I am stating the FACT that (if he ever existed) your Yeshua was crucified by Conservatives like you, because he was a Liberal.
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“The Marxist philosophy is a govt. based philosophy.” – clearly, you have been told what to think for so long that you’ve forgotten how to do so on your own and can’t recognize a chain of events, when one is presented to you. First came the philosophy, written down by Karl Marx – it wasn’t until many years later that the Russian government adopted it. Eggs come first, then chickens.
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“For 2 thousand years there HAS been a consensus of who the authors are believed to be based on the evidence we have.”
Question, Kathy – for how many MORE than 2000 years was it believed that the earth was flat? IS it flat? Consensus was wrong, wasn’t it? That consensus was based on ignorance, as is yours.
“An objective person wouldn’t demand evidence of something that they know is true.. that it HAS been the consensus.”
Surely, you wouldn’t expect evidence that the earth is flat, would you? Why EVERYbody knows THAT it IS–!
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“The language at the time of Yahusha was Aramaic and not greek. While Saul may have spoken Greek, because he was a Roman from the house of Herod, the true apostles surely did not.”
Interesting you should say that Kathy, as all four Gospels were originally written in Greek – nice of you to bring my evidence with you – case closed!
See, this is what it’s like when two people cooperate to find the truth, not merely seek to confirm some preconceived notion.
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Calm down Mensa, or she won’t want to talk to you any more. Besides, you are being completely hypocritical. I have heard you say” most scholars agree” and garbage like that more than a few times, and that isn’t any different than saying “the consensus”.
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You are incorrect sir, and it wasn’t Kathy that said that.
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50/50 chance, Kathy, that your god a created being with a Creator. Can’t get more logical than that.. I’m using MATH. And you can’t disprove this statistic.
2 claims that you are welcome to try and disprove..
• There is no empirical (by your standards) evidence that your god is a created being.
• There is no empirical evidence that your god is not a created being.
The 50/50 odds are based on your own standards of empirical evidence, that your god is a created being.
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“Calm down Mensa, or she won’t want to talk to you any more.” – you’re only saying that to give me a reason to live – no, come to think of it, you wouldn’t do that, would you? At least I can always hope —
“Besides, you are being completely hypocritical. I have heard you say ‘most scholars agree’ and garbage like that more than a few times, and that isn’t any different than saying ‘the consensus’” – nay, nay, not so, Fair-Maiden-with-stilletto-tongue – Kathy’s “consensus” includes illiterate, superstitious shepherds and well, basically people like you and Kathy, who’ll believe anything that comes down the pike as long as it’s stamped, Hecho en Cielo, as opposed to men and women who have made it their lives’ work to study the scriptures, and the history behind them – not the same as Kathy’s “consensus.”
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