Well, after breaking 2000 comments on the previous thread, I think it’s time to move to a new one. Feel free to continue the conversation here.
Also, I want to make a note about future posts. The tone on this blog for the last month or so has been decidedly different than what it used to be. While that’s definitely made things interesting, I’d like to move back to a tone more in line with the way things used to be. So going forward, I want the comments on all new posts to remain civil. We can all make our points, and I expect to see a wide range of opinions. But I don’t want to get into name-calling and bashing when we can’t all agree on particular issues. Let’s try to stay focused on the points and not get side-tracked with personal stuff. Let’s also keep each comment substantive so we don’t rack up so many comments in such a short period of time that it’s hard for everyone to keep track.
If you don’t feel like you can participate within those guidelines, then feel free to continue posting within this thread (and any future “Kathy” threads, if they’re needed), because I won’t be enforcing any guidelines here. But if you want to comment on any other posts, you’ll need to abide by the rules I just laid out. Otherwise, your comment will be subject to deletion, and after a warning, you might find yourself banned from at least that thread, if not the entire blog.
If there are any questions, let me know.
Thanks
Finding Truth 
” I have asked Mike repeatedly why he doesn’t use his faith, as prescribed in the NT, to lay hands on this child and heal her”
and I have answered she doesn’t need it. SHe’s a happy fulfilled little girl. Plus great news to report!!! Doctors are certain that if you put her in front of a map she would be able to identify the location of a mountain near Nazareth and not get it 18 miles off
We are thinking we may in fact have to redefine mental illness because there are people on blogs who are not able to operate at that level. 🙂 🙂
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“Don’t respond to me or mention my name constantly like you are in love ”
I thought it was humorous when you accused the women here of being after you. I started to get concerned when you made similar comments to Arch. And now ?
You are a sick puppy indeed. My last comment here in Zoo Loo Land
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“SHe’s a happy fulfilled little girl.” – so you can finally quit milking her for pathos, right?
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“KC – I love Mike’s wife too”
You should. Conservatives tend to have far better looking women as wives. Not the women’s fault either. Not much good or handsome liberal men. So their choices are to cringe and settle or choose their own sex – which is why liberal women are far more likely to seek partners of their own sex.
🙂 🙂
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“Conservatives tend to have far better looking women as wives – Wives? I can’t say for sure, but mistresses, including the wives of Conservatives, oh yeah – you feed ’em, I – well, I’m sure even you get the idea –!
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Mike said.. (about Arch)..
“On what planet must this poor soul live on to think he just made a good point.”
I don’t even know if it can be called a “point”.
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Kathy, your idea of “objectivity” is anyhing that agrees with your philosophy, and anything that doesn’t, is “Liberal” propaganda. I feel sorry for you, that you are unable to escape the indoctrination to which you’ve been subjected.
Early on, I diagnosed your prejudice, and in the first segment, said, “You wouldn’t know a fact if it slapped you in the face!” I was criticized by some of our members for my candidness, but I suspect that those same members now see that I knew what I was talking about, despite the fact that I might not have phrased it as delicately as a William or a Howie.
I may not be known for my delicacy, but my honesty, despite what Mr. Pretzel might say, is beyond reproach.
You live your life with your head in the sand, and it does no good to give you evidence that contradicts your beliefs, because you will ignore it, regardless of how valid it may be. My only hope for you, is that you don’t indoctrinate your daughter the way you’ve been indoctrinated. Oh, I know you’ll try, but funny thing, kids have minds of their own, and just because you were gullible, doesn’t necessarily mean that she will be. I frankly hope that all of this comes back to bite you in the Astor Bar.
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William,
“Let me start off by reminding you, that you brought up sanat clause. Do you think it’s objectively weighing the evidence to compare a person who believes themselves to be an elf dying for santa is the same as someone dying for their religion? This is the context ion which you used the comparison, so I think it’s a but unfair to now put this question to me…”
It’s irrelevant who brought up santa.. what is relevant to THIS point is that YOU made a claim that the evidence for both being real was the same.
I brought up santa because I was pointing out your inability to discern the value, aka WEIGHT, of evidence.
You repeatedly tried to claim that I haven’t put forth any evidence.. and you were factually wrong. You kept claiming that the evidence for all the different religions is the same.. another factually incorrect claim.
“nevertheless, i think it is good question, so no, I wouldn’t say this is correct. and you’re right, there are differences. I will say, that i do believe that the bible’s divine origin is just as much a fable as santa clause, but I view the possibility of a god or gods to be separate from the bible.”
It took a lot of persistence, but… good.. I think we might be getting somewhere. So, since you acknowledge that there are differences, there’s no reason to not answer my question.. which religion has the most evidence to support it’s “truth/Truth?
I never said you or Nate or anyone had to agree that the religion was true.. only which one has the most compelling evidence.
But, I’m not sure how you can still believe that Christianity is “just as much a fable as santa clause”.. when no one died for santa claus but people did die, and STILL DO give their lives for Jesus. I don’t see how you can value this evidence as the same as the zero evidence we actually have for santa.. this is just more evidence of bias/ lack of objectivity. There’s no other way to see it. Not to mention the Bible, the witnesses, prophecies, archaeological evidence.. we have none of that for santa claus. If you disagree.. please list the more compelling evidence for santa claus.. or even the evidence that puts them on the same level.
“I dont know that i believe it a god, but I dont firmly dispute a god’s existence either – I’m just not convinced there is one.”
So, it makes sense to you that if we are created beings, that our Creator just abandoned us? It’s certainly a possibility but it seems unlikely when observing all the attention required in creating us/ existence. So, that would take us back to my question about which religion has the most compelling evidence for it’s truth.. which religion (or faith for Christianity) is our Creator revealing Himself to us through? And my belief is that Christianity is the most reasonable, likely answer. It gives us all the necessary answers; meaning & purpose.. the only unanswered question is 1st cause. And Christianity has the most compelling evidence.
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“You live your life with your head in the sand, and it does no good to give you evidence that contradicts your beliefs, because you will ignore it, regardless of how valid it may be. ”
Arch, you are the one who is ignoring evidence and reality. You STILL haven’t answered my simple question.. you just continue to ignore it, why is that Arch?? This is YOU putting your head in the sand.. not me! This is how we find truth.. when one side is unable to proceed… that’s where the flaw in reasoning is.. and where truth is NOT to be found.
me: “are you claiming that because the ‘cliff’ is supposedly 18 miles away.. that this is evidence for the Bible not being true?” – no, I’m claiming that that’s evidence for that verse not being true.”
SOOOOOOOO…. you’ve identified EVIDENCE… for something being TRUE OR NOT TRUE.. ahem…
NOW.. let’s try this.. AGAIN…
WHICH RELIGION DO YOU BELIEVE HAS THE BEST EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT IT’S “TRUTH”??
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“ people did die, and STILL DO give their lives for Jesus. – And more delusional people prove what?
“So, it makes sense to you that if we are created beings – no one here said we were.
What created your god?
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“You STILL haven’t answered my simple question.. you just continue to ignore it, why is that Arch?” – because it’s an absurd question, or as Ratamacu0) put it so aptly, “Which turd is the shiniest.”
The honest answer, is None of the Above.
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Mike
So, not able to show us a single scrap of verifiable evidence for the divinity of your man-god, Jesus of Nazareth, then Mike?
Like all believers, when faced with the really tough questions refer to default position:
Ignore request, shift goalposts and if all else fails ask your god for guidance?
What a fraud.
A monstrous hypocrite of the first degree.
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“I may not be known for my delicacy, but my honesty, despite what Mr. Pretzel might say, is beyond reproach.
You live your life with your head in the sand, and it does no good to give you evidence that contradicts your beliefs, because you will ignore it, regardless of how valid it may be.” – Arch
Goodness …What a howler from the person who still maintains a mountain is where every map tells him it is not.
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“So, not able to show us a single scrap of verifiable evidence for the divinity of your man-god, Jesus of Nazareth, then Mike?”
You have been given five prophecies. You will mot be allowed to hand wave out of answering them any more than you were allowed to handwave away from the peer review evidence you claimed never existed for Nazareth. You can employ any rhetoric and let the spittle fly. its all for naught . Temper tantrums have no effect on me. Your attempt to redefine what Christianity is solely based on have been defeated. Chop chop on the five prophecies and stop boring me.
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RFLMFAO….
Ah…Mikey, prophecies. What a chump you really are.
Joseph uttered prophecies to Pharaoh. Should we believe this crap as well?
Nostradamus also prophesied. Do you take him seriously?
And what about the biblical ‘prophecies’ that are blatant lies? Take the Virgin Birth for example.
Really, you are such a poor excuse not only for a christian but as an example of critical thinking.
However, as an example of an indoctrinated dunderhead, you are a shining star.
I am not trying to define your religion what a silly man you are. The definition was laid out by the Nicene Creed.
You are simply unable to provide any verifiable evidence for your man- god claims for the character, Jesus of Nazareth.
Now, chop chop,Mike, on the evidence and stop boring everybody.
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“Nostradamus also prophesied. Do you take him seriously?”
So lets analyze the critical thinking of this self alleged intelligent person. Some others have claimed to have made prophecies so that means all prophecies can be rejected on that basis rather than looking at each on the merits. By that wonderful logic some people say they are telling the truth and are lying so all people saying they are telling the truth are in fact lying
Yawn…..
“And what about the biblical ‘prophecies’ that are blatant lies? Take the Virgin Birth for example.”
The virgin Birth is fine and dandy. So is Matthews take on it. My fault that you don;t read the Bible to know that Isiah’s children were given as signs pointing to future events? You can debate me on the virgin birth when you deal with the other five prophecies I gave
Or was I supposed to miss in all that hand waving that you have ducked again?
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What on earth for? I have no desire to debate idiotic nonsense with an idiot who doesnlt understand his own religious book.
What you fail to understand is this: even if one could state without fear of contradiction that the prophecies were legit you are then faced with the seemingly insurmountable problem of fitting your man-god into this scenario and, as has been repeatedly pointed out to you, there is no evidence to support these claims of divinity.
And the bible cannot be used to justify the bible. That s just plain silly.
Now, if you can provide one shred of verifiable evidence for this divinity then your prophecy claims might be worth looking at. Until then, all you have is the erroneous text and faith.
So, chop chop Mikey, boy, let’s see this evidence?
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“I am not trying to define your religion what a silly man you are. The definition was laid out by the Nicene Creed.”
Stop lying and get to work. the Nicene Creed does not support your claim that the sole basis of Christianity is the divinity of Jesus. It refers directly to Jesus Christ. Christ is not his last name but his title of being messiah and messiah is a prophetic principle.
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“What you fail to understand is this: even if one could state without fear of contradiction that the prophecies were legit you are then faced with the seemingly insurmountable problem of fitting your man-god into this scenario”
What you OBVIOUSLY do not understand is that the claim of divinity is DIRECTLY tied to prophecy. How can you debate me on Christianity when you are so utterly clueless on the subject. Just a long list of blunders – number of verses in the originals, no peer reviewed papers of Nazareth in the first century, Christianity is solely based on divinity claims etc etc on and on it goes and still no addressing of the five prophecies given to you.
MIkes a busy guy this morning. No time to deal with your foolishness. The hissy fits don;t make the papers go away, they don’t change Jesus being the Christ and they don’t answer the five prophecies given to you.
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@Mike
I know very well what the Nicene Creed states, thank you ever so much and it had to be made law and later enforced by Theodosius so please, stop being churlish by calling everyone a liar.
We are not Christians.
I have stated that the divinity claim is the foundation of Christianity. Without this…your man god is just a smelly little Galilean escatological prophet.
I also know what ”Christ” means.
Now, let’s dispense with the name calling, hand waving and all the nonsense that has gone before. Let us wipe the slate clean and deal with facts and evidence that pertain to your faith.
1. You believe that Jesus of Nazareth was divine and also the creator of the universe. All I am asking is for you to offer one single piece of verifiable evidence for the divinity claim. Nothing else.
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Kathy, forgive the length, but I am trying to address everything you went over.
You said,
“It’s irrelevant who brought up santa.. what is relevant to THIS point is that YOU made a claim that the evidence for both being real was the same.” – Kathy
Well then it is relevant since you made the same comparison, but to another religion. I was merely giving you your own argument back to you. But let’s leave santa behind as we both think it provides nothing to the conversation. We’re better off sticking to the bigger issues. I’m sure you agree.
And you also said,
“You repeatedly tried to claim that I haven’t put forth any evidence.. and you were factually wrong. You kept claiming that the evidence for all the different religions is the same.. another factually incorrect claim.” – Kathy
Fine Kathy, but again, what evidence do you have for Christianity that other religions do not have? Yet again, all the evidence that I have seen you cite, can and often is cited for other religions as well. Several times now I have even recited back to you what evidence I’ve seen you provide and I have addressed it all. If I have missed any, please provide what I have missed.
This too,
“It took a lot of persistence, but… good.. I think we might be getting somewhere. So, since you acknowledge that there are differences, there’s no reason to not answer my question.. which religion has the most evidence to support its “truth/Truth?” – Kathy
How many times must I answer? I don’t think any religion has evidence of being truly divine; just as I don’t think any 10 year old has any evidence or meaningful credentials of being a doctor; and just I couldn’t name a type of roach that is the prettiest.
And again, you are welcome to show the credentials that you think makes Christianity true.
You said this,
“But, I’m not sure how you can still believe that Christianity is “just as much a fable as santa clause”.. when no one died for santa claus but people did die, and STILL DO give their lives for Jesus.” – Kathy
Kathy, we’ve been through this and through this, but you still seem to think that martyrdom only becomes evidence for the truth of the cause if that cause is Christianity. Let me ask you, what about the christians that decided to denounce Christianity and preserve their own lives in order to avoid dying for it? Do you think that is evidence of Christianity’s lack of truth, or would you then admit that an individual’s actions only stand as evidence for their belief and/or devotion to Christianity?
You also said,
“So, it makes sense to you that if we are created beings, that our Creator just abandoned us? It’s certainly a possibility but it seems unlikely when observing all the attention required in creating us/ existence. So, that would take us back to my question about which religion has the most compelling evidence for it’s truth.. which religion (or faith for Christianity) is our Creator revealing Himself to us through? And my belief is that Christianity is the most reasonable, likely answer. It gives us all the necessary answers; meaning & purpose.. the only unanswered question is 1st cause. And Christianity has the most compelling evidence.” – Kathy
So you’re suggesting that a perfect, all powerful, all knowing, loving, merciful, wrathful, and jealous god loved us so much that he made a rule that said most everyone would go to hell unless they believed (regardless of their morality) in jesus? You also suggest that this same god made the rule that he had to kill his own son in order to save everyone, but decided to not speak to each man, decided to not show himself to his beloved creation, and decided to not even write his own book to us, and decided to have Israelites slaughter women and children (and sometimes keep the virgin girls)? This makes sense to you?
You think it makes sense to say that considering the universe’s complexity and precision, that there must be something that created it. But, when it comes to that creator, do you think he is more or less complex than his creation? If more complex, then why doesn’t he also need a creator? If he does not, then evidently, there is no need for complex or precise things to need creation. But you still think that makes the most sense?
Look at genesis chapters 1 & 2. Where did birds come from? The two chapters cant even agree on that. But that makes sense to you?
First, I don’t know that there is a god, or that there would be only one if any. And second, why would he/she/they/it have to be perfect or even care? Maybe we’re so far beneath them that we were created through a sneeze. Or maybe, there is no god. Whatever the case, I am certain that thor is not that god. Quite certain that the Koran is not a good instruction book. Neither do I think that zeus or Ares are true gods. And I am just as certain that the bible is just a product of men; a compellation of men’s claims. So, in summary, I think an unknown god or no god at all have more credentials at being true than any religion I’ve seen so far.
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Lurkers,
mike (TBLACKMAN) said this:
“Just in case anyone (lurkers) still does not know and since in scrolling through I saw my name in two of his posts – I stopped reading and responding to William days ago in large part because in addition to having nothing substantive to say he took to claiming that using handicapped little girls as insult material was no big deal for him to do.
So generally …beneath me and why you won’t be seeing me respond to him. In case anyone was wondering” – mike
Mike is a pathological liar, something you would have seen had you been lurking long enough. I asked him if he was a mentally handicapped little girl because he says ridiculous things. It was low brow and in poor taste, but it was not mocking the mentally handicapped, but just mocking mike.
He continually insists that he doesn’t read my comments, but I think that’s because he cant answer them. He’ll quote mine “prophecies” and when I ask him about the rest of the prophecy that hasn’t been fulfilled in the least, we get tangents on Krauss, we see him call names, we see him perpetuate lies, and we see him do a number of things, except address the short comings of the entire prophecies that he mentions.
You’ll see him mention “jews coming back to Israel” or “no city walls in Israel” but he tries to pretend there’s no more to those prophecies. He can ignore them all he likes, but there is quite a bit more, he just ignores them because they mean the prophecies havent been fulfilled.
What mike doesn’t seem to realize is that no matter how much he ignores my comments, they’re still here – much like the issues he tries to ignore in the bible. He can refuse to address them all he likes, but that does make the go away – they are still there.
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“I have stated that the divinity claim is the foundation of Christianity”
lol…..I dont care what you have stated. You are an authority only in your own mind. You have also said its the sole basis of Christianity and that no peer reviewed paper exists for the first century existence of Nazareth – both wrong
So deal with the five prophecies given to you and stop trying to duck and weave. You are not going to duck evidence offered and then demand more. its non negotiable. deal with them or just continue having a hissy fit. This weekend I may drop in and see if you have addressed the issue or failed again
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“1. You believe that Jesus of Nazareth was divine and also the creator of the universe. All I am asking is for you to offer one single piece of verifiable evidence for the divinity claim. Nothing else.”
Sheeesh way to go for consistency …in denseness. The verifiable evidence is prophetical in nature which is why that has to be dealt with first. At least try and keep up.
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As you haven’t yet offered a single piece of verifiable evidence I have not had to duck at all.
So, one piece of verifiable evidence for your divinity claim of Jesus of Nazareth, Mike. Just one.
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