So I’ve decided to bring the “Kathy” series to an end. However, we’ve had some fun in those threads when the conversation has gone off into interesting tangents, so I’d like to keep that part of it going for anyone who’s interested. These new threads will no longer focus on Kathy or the things we were discussing with her. So thanks for your time, Kathy! Take care.
There are no real rules for these threads. But to kick off the conversation, I’ll go back to the discussion on Paul that a few of us were having. Laurie views Deut 13 as a prophecy about Paul, so why don’t we take a quick look at it?
“If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, ‘Let us go after other gods,’ which you have not known, ‘and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the Lord your God is testing you, to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and hold fast to him. 5 But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has taught rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you out of the house of slavery, to make you leave the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.
6 “If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son or your daughter or the wife you embrace or your friend who is as your own soul entices you secretly, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which neither you nor your fathers have known, 7 some of the gods of the peoples who are around you, whether near you or far off from you, from the one end of the earth to the other, 8 you shall not yield to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him, nor shall you conceal him. 9 But you shall kill him. Your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. 10 You shall stone him to death with stones, because he sought to draw you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. 11 And all Israel shall hear and fear and never again do any such wickedness as this among you.
12 “If you hear in one of your cities, which the Lord your God is giving you to dwell there, 13 that certain worthless fellows have gone out among you and have drawn away the inhabitants of their city, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, 14 then you shall inquire and make search and ask diligently. And behold, if it be true and certain that such an abomination has been done among you, 15 you shall surely put the inhabitants of that city to the sword, devoting it to destruction, all who are in it and its cattle, with the edge of the sword. 16 You shall gather all its spoil into the midst of its open square and burn the city and all its spoil with fire, as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God. It shall be a heap forever. It shall not be built again. 17 None of the devoted things shall stick to your hand, that the Lord may turn from the fierceness of his anger and show you mercy and have compassion on you and multiply you, as he swore to your fathers, 18 if you obey the voice of the Lord your God, keeping all his commandments that I am commanding you today, and doing what is right in the sight of the Lord your God.
I can see how one could apply this to Paul. However, I can also see how Jews could have applied it to Jesus as well, especially if he was claiming divinity for himself. And I’m sure this could have applied to lots of people during Israel’s history. Why should we think it’s pointing to Paul specifically, and why wouldn’t it also apply to Jesus?
Finding Truth 
@William
sometimes I wonder if we influence the chemical production in our brains by behavior and activity, etc., or if it’s the type of thing we are helpless against. Personally, without conducting any meaningful research, I think it’s a combination of the two.
your thoughts?
I do think it is a combination of the 2 as well. However, like what you said, there hasn’t been any meaningful research that has established this relationship (or maybe I do not know of any to be exact). I do think we know too little of our body/brain mechanism to fully affirm any claims.
That being said, if it is proven that we are helpless against our genetic makeup – e.g. someone who gets angry easily due to his natural hormonal imbalance – we will open up a new myriad of morality issues. Do we cut him some slack because he cannot help it? Or we still judge him as a normal human being and with it the stand social repercussion should be meted out?
Looking at it this way – we do treat people with mental illness with leniency. So much so that people who commit crimes can always fall back on insanity plea such as – kleptomania, irresistible sexual urges, violent tendencies and the latest: affluenza. So do they sin or do not sin? Especially since they are not able to “help themselves”. Religion will be forced to come to terms with this in the future as our scientific understanding of ourselves get better.
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I was wondering this same thing. I’ve asked you this before, I think, Brandon. What criteria makes something divinely inspired?
I guess it depends on what one means by divinely inspired. Does it mean that people who believed they were being led by a god were inspired to write down what they thought s/he/it was saying? Or does it mean that God said, ‘Here boy, take this down just like I tell you’?
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“How do you know what the standards are for something being divinely inspired? Where did you get these standards from?” – good questions, Dave – I’d be interested in the answers to those myself.
BTW, Dave – watch out for H.A.L., he’s not as user-friendly as he seems —
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There are things I read in the Bible that make me stop and think,
For example the answer Jesus gave to this question in Luke 20:19-26
And the chief priests and the scribes the same hour sought to lay hands on him; and they feared the people: for they perceived that he had spoken this parable against them.
And they watched him, and sent forth spies, which should feign themselves just men, that they might take hold of his words, that so they might deliver him unto the power and authority of the governor.
And they asked him, saying, Master, we know that thou sayest and teachest rightly, neither acceptest thou the person of any, but teachest the way of God truly:
Is it lawful for us to give tribute unto Caesar, or no?
But he perceived their craftiness, and said unto them, Why tempt ye me?
Shew me a penny. Whose image and superscription hath it? They answered and said, Caesar’s.
And he said unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar’s, and unto God the things which be God’s.
And they could not take hold of his words before the people: and they marvelled at his answer, and held their peace.
That is a brilliant answer. It makes me think, wow.. there is something more to this.
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“As Nate mentioned, Kavanaugh conveniently leaves out Jesus saying, “I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. . . not one stroke of a letter will pass from the law until all is accomplished.” (Matt 5:18). What is meant by “fulfill” and when will all be “accomplished”? Was it Jesus’ sacrifice and when the veil of the Temple was torn?”
I know I already said this, but I’ll say it again, you need to read the context. Messiah said not one jot will pass from the law till heaven and earth pass away. This hasn’t happened yet.
“I find it amusing that Kavanaugh cites Mark 7:9 while failing to mention that only 10 verses later Jesus declares all foods kosher.”
Messiah, like Peter, never ate anything unclean. Did you go back and read Peter’s dream in context? You should do the same here. I feel like you are not reading my comments, because I answered most of these already.
“Paul was suspected of teaching against Torah in Acts, and that is why they had him do the Nazarite vow, so people would see that he kept the law.”
“This is exactly the kind of assertions I have been talking about. It requires evidence to back it up. Please back up your claims with evidence. Look up 1 Cor 9:19-21 and you will have the real reason why Paul took the Nazarite vow (ultimately for the purpose of evangelism).”
Yes Paul told the Corinthians that he lies to gain converts. I think this is a problem, but we can discuss that later. What you should do is read the context of the verse I posted.
17 When we had come to Jerusalem, the brothers received us gladly. 18 On the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present. 19 After greeting them, he related one by one the things that God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 And when they heard it, they glorified God. And they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed. They are all zealous for the law, 21 and they have been told about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or walk according to our customs. 22 What then is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. 23 Do therefore what we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow; 24 take these men and purify yourself along with them and pay their expenses, so that they may shave their heads. Thus all will know that there is nothing in what they have been told about you, but that you yourself also live in observance of the law. 25 But as for the Gentiles who have believed, we have sent a letter with our judgment that they should abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled,[d] and from sexual immorality.” 26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day he purified himself along with them and went into the temple, giving notice when the days of purification would be fulfilled and the offering presented for each one of them.
Paul Arrested in the Temple
27 When the seven days were almost completed, the Jews from Asia, seeing him in the temple, stirred up the whole crowd and laid hands on him, 28 crying out, “Men of Israel, help! This is the man who is teaching everyone everywhere against the people and the law and this place. Moreover, he even brought Greeks into the temple and has defiled this holy place.”
The council thought this must have been a mistake, how could Paul a Jew that is supposedly doing all these great works for messiah, be preaching against the law? This is why he took the vow, to show that he does keep the law.
I posted his arrest to show you that like 2 Revelations states, the false apostle is also a liar.
6 Now when Paul perceived that one part were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, “Brothers, I am a Pharisee, a son of Pharisees. It is with respect to the hope and the resurrection of the dead that I am on trial.” 7 And when he had said this, a dissension arose between the Pharisees and the Sadducees, and the assembly was divided. 8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, nor angel, nor spirit, but the Pharisees acknowledge them all. 9 Then a great clamor arose, and some of the scribes of the Pharisees’ party stood up and contended sharply, “We find nothing wrong in this man.
Was Paul arrested for a belief in the resurrection?
Below Paul tells Agrippa that he went to Jerusalem and Judea first
Acts 26:19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
Now here he tells the Galatians that he didn’t go to Judea or Jerusalem, and he’s not lying.
Galatians
But when he who had set me apart before I was born,[d] and who called me by his grace, 16 was pleased to reveal his Son to[e] me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone;[f] 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.
18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas and remained with him fifteen days. 19 But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord’s brother. 20 (In what I am writing to you, before God, I do not lie!)21 Then I went into the regions of Syria and Cilicia. 22 And I was still unknown in person to the churches of Judea that are in Christ. 23 They only were hearing it said, “He who used to persecute us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy.”
Have you read the first 2 chapters of this book? Do you know why he lied to them, and why he called the true apostles false? Have you read 2 Corinthians 11.
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“That is a brilliant answer. It makes me think, wow.. there is something more to this.”
Or simply good writing – there’s no reason to believe that authors of millennia ago, weren’t as creative as they are today.
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night everyone
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fascinating. all of it. because i don’t believe the bible is a product of god, this almost looks like two people arguing over a shape that a cloud is making.
“It’s a Rabbit!”
“No, it’s a Duck!”
each pointing to the same fluffy features of the same cloud.
My question to both, why believe the bible (any part of it) is from god at all? I think these discussions highlight the ambiguity that exists in this “perfect word of god.” And then there is of course the historical problems, the internal contradictions, and the “prophecies…”
After seeing the issues for myself, and after seeing how much sense it all makes once you realize it wasn’t from god, I am constantly surprised at why i ever believed in the first place.
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After seeing the issues for myself, and after seeing how much sense it all makes once you realize it wasn’t from god, I am constantly surprised at why i ever believed in the first place.
Indeed, William.
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I ‘third’ William and Ruth’s observation – and I’m still in amazement that others believe it and then use all that blarney to righteously contend that everyone else should do what the invisible friend’s book tells them to do.
I mean, really. . . the only sensible reaction to it all is to shake your head in wonder.
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and everyone already does that for every other religion, other than their own…
what really makes theirs better, or more compelling in its claim of being divine?
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Because we were lied to. All growing up my parents, sunday school teachers and pastors told me that the Bible was from God. This was presented as FACT not belief. I can’t even count all the different songs I’ve sang reaffirming this “fact”. It is never questioned. The Bible is held up high by the preacher and no one dares to question it’s authority.
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the emperor’s new clothes.
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It is interesting to watch atheists help out with a debate between a Christian and a ____ (Laurie, I’m not sure what to call you).
That’s why I like reading your blog, Nate.
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Dave, as I commented to a friend yesterday, “The b-i-b-l-e is NOT the book for me!”
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Because we were lied to. All growing up my parents, sunday school teachers and pastors told me that the Bible was from God. This was presented as FACT not belief. I can’t even count all the different songs I’ve sang reaffirming this “fact”. It is never questioned. The Bible is held up high by the preacher and no one dares to question it’s authority.
My Sunday School teachers and pastors presented as fact that the Holy Spirit had perfectly preserved God’s Word, that we could trust it because God had made sure that it was inerrant and infallible. I never questioned it until I listened to a Christian radio program hammering out apologetics on exactly how the Holy Spirit had supposedly preserved the word. They outlined how the Bible was [historically] put together, the Council of Nicea, and how the Holy Spirit had led these men to choose which letters in the NT were inspired by God and which ones were not. They talked about how narrowly the Book of Revelation made the cut and how narrowly some of the other early Christian writings missed the cut. That left a big question mark in my mind and took me on a bit of a journey learning how the Bible was really compiled. Needless to say what these apologists intended to bolster faith in the Bible being reliably God’s word left me puzzled how anyone could believe that it(the NT in particular) was anything short of man-made.
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“Needless to say what these apologists intended to bolster faith in the Bible being reliably God’s word left me puzzled how anyone could believe that it(the NT in particular) was anything short of man-made.”
Agreed, except I see the OT as being equally as human inspired.
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I do, too, now. At the time, though, learning how the NT was compiled gave me real pause. Obviously I didn’t stop there, but at the time I still thought the OT might be divinely inspired and thus my look into Judaism.
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Ruth,
My questioning came about in just the opposite way. It wasn’t until I started studying the OT that I began to question, and then it evolved to the NT. I think I had to have my brain shocked first at the horrid immorality in the OT before neural circuitry associated with critical social assessment and negative emotions (not able to see faults) was reactivated. They had been deactivated because of my love for God/Jesus. Something that happens in relationships as well. I’m repeating myself, as I’ve mentioned the neurological studies before. Other studies show that when the brain is shocked, such as someone finding out their partner was having an affair, that can reactivate neural circuitry. “Why didn’t I see that before”. So as more parts of my brain came back online, the more I saw the flaws in the bible.
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Brilliant comments, everyone. I couldn’t agree more. This debate over Paul just emphasizes how confusing and contradictory the Bible is.
Laurie makes some great points for her position, but the biggest problem I see with it is the god that would put such a plan in place. He has people who are trying to follow him — people who have chosen to serve him over all the other “gods” out there — but instead of simply rewarding these people for putting their faith in him, he decides to “test” them by including writings of a false teacher in with his very own word. How twisted is that? Could any of us treat our children this way?
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“sometimes I wonder if we influence the chemical production in our brains by behavior and activity, etc., or if it’s the type of thing we are helpless against.”
@Powell Powers
Yes, studies show that we are influenced, our behavior is influenced by hormones—neurotransmitters. For example, the brain is effected if people are in power for too long, generally over 10 years, and those who pretty much have unfettered power.
In his book, The Winner Effect: How Power Affects Your Brain, Neurologist Ian Robertson writes:
“Power changes the brain triggering increased testosterone in both men and women. Testosterone and one of its by-products called 3-androstanediol, are addictive, largely because they increase dopamine in a part of the brain’s reward system called the nucleus accumbens. Cocaine has its effects through this system also, and by hijacking our brain’s reward system, it can give short-term extreme pleasure but leads to long-term addiction, with all that that entails.
Too much power – and hence too much dopamine – can disrupt normal cognition and emotion, leading to gross errors of judgment and imperviousness to risk, not to mention huge egocentricity and lack of empathy for others.”
So, for example, if a husband is given unfettered power over his wife, as promoted in the bible, this increases the probability of domestic abuse. This propensity towards abuse has also been shown in primate studies observing chimps and baboons.
Regarding your other comments to William, have you see this?
One thing seems certain to me — the God of Abraham knew nothing about the brain and what can happen when it’s damaged. The God of Abraham (the biblical writers) promoted the very things that lead to brain injuries, brain atrophy and hormonal imbalances, e.g., war, male dominance, devaluing of females, corporal punishment, slavery, etc.
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Ooops, typos as usual. I meant to write *affected
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He has people who are trying to follow him — people who have chosen to serve him over all the other “gods” out there — but instead of simply rewarding these people for putting their faith in him, he decides to “test” them by including writings of a false teacher in with his very own word.
Not only that, Nate, but 2 Thessalonians 2 says that it is God, himself, who will send a great deception upon the people and that if they are deceived he will condemn them. It is God, himself, who is supposedly holding back “the man of lawlessness”.
1 And now, brothers and sisters, let us tell you about the coming again of our Lord Jesus Christ and how we will be gathered together to meet him. 2 Please don’t be so easily shaken and troubled by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun. Even if they claim to have had a vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us, don’t believe them. 3 Don’t be fooled by what they say.For that day will not come until there is a great rebellion against God and the man of lawlessness is revealed — the one who brings destruction. 4 He will exalt himself and defy every god there is and tear down every object of adoration and worship. He will position himself in the temple of God, claiming that he himself is God. 5 Don’t you remember that I told you this when I was with you? 6 And you know what is holding him back, for he can be revealed only when his time comes. 7 For this lawlessness is already at work secretly, and it will remain secret until the one who is holding it back steps out of the way. 8 Then the man of lawlessness will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will consume with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 This evil man will come to do the work of Satan with counterfeit power and signs and miracles. 10 He will use every kind of wicked deception to fool those who are on their way to destruction because they refuse to believe the truth that would save them. 11 So God will send great deception upon them, and they will believe all these lies. 12 Then they will be condemned for not believing the truth and for enjoying the evil they do. 13 As for us, we always thank God for you, dear brothers and sisters loved by the Lord. We are thankful that God chose you to be among the first to experience salvation, a salvation that came through the Spirit who makes you holy and by your belief in the truth. 14 He called you to salvation when we told you the Good News; now you can share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 With all these things in mind, dear brothers and sisters, stand firm and keep a strong grip on everything we taught you both in person and by letter. 16 May our Lord Jesus Christ and God our Father, who loved us and in his special favor gave us everlasting comfort and good hope, 17 comfort your hearts and give you strength in every good thing you do and say.
So the God who doesn’t ‘tempt’ his people is the same God who will send a great deception? He is not content with people following him? So he decides that a better plan is trickery to see which ones really, really love him? And then he’ll condemn people for falling into the trap he set?
From the outside looking in it’s just…weird.
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video is interesting, but so far I’ve only watched half of it. I am familiar with some of what was said.
Let me make this clear, I am not advocating these things, but i do have a question regarding some of the things you’ve listed in your last paragraph.
why would war, male dominance and corporal punishment be bad? I realize that in our modern era, with our modern technologies, we view these things very different that they were viewed hundreds and thousands of years ago, but why aren’t these natural to man in many ways?
Survival of the fittest, self preservation, alpha male, etc?
please dont take the questions the wrong way, and i may have to explain further…
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“From the outside looking in it’s just…weird.”
Not to mention, inhumane—cruel.
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