““No he wouldn’t Kathy ! A Security Company technician who works on hundreds of cameras for hundreds of customers would not be surprised at this but 1 police officer watching 13 cameras most likely never had this happen before .”
Ok, so you’re saying that the police officer never bothered to ask the security technician or anyone else about this?
And, also, no one has a response to my point about the figure going BEHIND an object on the screen and then reappearing?
“I thought it was interesting that Ruth never addressed if anyone she knew had a story when I asked her about that.
I did. I even related one of my own. That particular post downloads to my computer very slowly so I’m not going to go copy and paste my comment here.”
Yes, you shared your experience.. but you didn’t address if you knew anyone else who had a story. This was as much a part of my point as your own personal experience(s).
Right, Kathy, I think we may need to agree to disagree about this. You believe the Bible to be the divinely inspired word of God and I do not. We’ve discussed the reasons why I believe what I believe and why you believe what you believe. I don’t think there’s sufficient evidence to conclude divine inspiration. Clearly you do. I do not believe I’m a sinner in need of salvation. You believe that you and everybody else is. The entire thing is circular. We’re born sinners but we have a choice to never sin? Which implies that we could live perfect, blameless, lives According to your own ancient writ this is an impossibility.
“We’re born sinners but we have a choice to never sin? Which implies that we could live perfect, blameless, lives According to your own ancient writ this is an impossibility.”
So, it seems kc, that you’ll only engage with me when you feel like you can “win” the point?
sigh…
Nothing I stated was untrue.. we have the free will to not sin.. but, say you’re 3 or 4.. it’s not likely you’re going to make the sinless choice. This again has turned into a silly debate of technicalities.. aka desperation.
“What answer did you give for the figure going behind the object and then reappearing??”
If the signal dropped out then reappeared. This would cause it, but this would be too logical.
“we have the free will to not sin.. but, say you’re 3 or 4.. it’s not likely you’re going to make the sinless choice.”
Really Kathy ???? I have never had a Minister say he thinks children 3 or 4 are capable of sinning. I was always told there was an “age of accountability”
You are proof why so many Christians become confused by statements like this and eventually de-convert.
As has been stated a NUMBER of times before, you have been provided answers but you refuse to accept them and instead go back to harping on the same old things … over and over and over again. It’s just gotten old, Kathy.
I join with KC … and I hope others do too. It’s time to move on.
And since this is an “open conversation,” did anyone watch Scorpion? Would you want to be that smart?
I acknowledged this.. you DIDN’T acknowledge the peculiar timing of this event and that the lamp never did it since.. although I will admit that I eventually got rid of it and never got another one..lol..
“The 2nd incident a day or two later happened when I went to check on my daughter before going to bed.. like I always did. She was about 8 or 9 at the time I think. Anyway, her lamp next to her bed was on and she was sound asleep. ”
“You could have become distracted and forgot to turn it off. I have done this more than once. Who hasn’t ?”
Yep, but again, you fail to acknowledge the circumstances.. this is just not likely.. I lived it, I know the circumstances and again the peculiar timing and that it never happened again.. you ignore this, you just slap on any explanation that gets you buy and move on.
“first happened when I was watching tv, the lamp next to me flickered on and off twice within a few seconds time.. it was during the day so the lamp was not on.”
“The switch could have actually been stuck in the middle. A vibration (big loud truck going past the house) could have triggered it to flicker.”
Nope, it flickered twice. And there was no loud truck, I’d have noticed that .. as I explained I SEARCHED for an explanation, I checked the turn switch.. it was tight and in the off position.
“Naturally, I wanted to believe that it was one or both of my parents. But, after talking to people more knowledgeable than me about Christianity and the Bible, I was told that it wasn’t them, but demonic spirits wanting to deceive me into believing it was them.”
Exactly ! You WANTED to believe it was a deceased loved one.
Again, you ignore that I changed that belief when I learned about scripture. It was NOT what I wanted to believe.. I definitely didn’t want to believe it was a demon.
Reason cannot convince you if you WANT to believe something else.
Of course you are trying to debate, but why? What do you hope the outcome will be? I just don’t get it. I am not one for debating, really, but I will gladly answer whatever questions you may have that will afford you a greater understanding of what atheism is. You seem to be curiously curious about it.
I have to ask myself from time to time why this is such an important topic to me, why I have spent hours upon hours “debating” theists (almost invariably Christian). My answer is that Christians have the power to enact legislation and develop/implement policies that affect us all. I think people need to know we atheists exist and are not going away.
I grew tired of feeling like I need to apologize for existing and for feeling like an outsider. I do not want to convince anybody that he or she should not believe as you do. I wish you and other Christians happiness in your journey. I have much respect for Christians, and theists in general, who can just be content on their paths and let others be on theirs. What I don’t understand is why what we believe or don’t believe is so important to you.
Would it make you happy if I said I believed, but didn’t? I do that occasionally with the elderly people with whom I work, because what I believe is irrelevant in that context. These people are sick and often close to the end of their lives; they need their faith. Is that what you need? Are you fighting to keep it? I don’t think people want to take your faith away from you. Why is it so important for us to share that faith?
If you have the ability to mindfully observe your actions and question your motives, you might find you can move beyond this place where you seem to be stuck. I am trying to continue to be where I want to be, which is in a place of acute awareness and peace. Your path will not work for me; I have my own.
“If the signal dropped out then reappeared. This would cause it, but this would be too logical.”
Do you understand odds? Those are pretty amazing odds.. and when you put it together with all the other steps you claim explain it, you’re the one who isn’t being very logical or reasonable.
“we have the free will to not sin.. but, say you’re 3 or 4.. it’s not likely you’re going to make the sinless choice.”
Really Kathy ???? I have never had a Minister say he thinks children 3 or 4 are capable of sinning. I was always told there was an “age of accountability”:
We weren’t talking about accountability, we were talking about sin.
“You are proof why so many Christians become confused by statements like this and eventually de-convert.”
You are showing what happens when there is no objectivity.
Kathy, I’m not sure what you’re after in asking if I know anyone else who has a story. Yes, I know other people who have stories. All the ones I know of have perfectly natural explanations, it’s simply that the people involved want to believe there’s some providence involved.
My close friend, who is a devout Christian and believes in demonic possession, the power witchcraft, and who also believes she’s seen another realm where angels and demons are warring, swears that she was watching a tv preacher and he asked that those at home put their hands to the tv against his while he prayed for healing for them or their loved ones. She swears this cured her child’s ear infection. The truth is she’d taken her child to the doctor and she’d been given antibiotics for her infection.
The same woman believes that, even though another of her children had been under the care of a doctor and had received treatment for scoliosis, the laying on of hands by the deacons in our church during a healing service was responsible for her spinal correction.
I guess our other friend who had cancer and received that same laying on of hands wasn’t in God’s good graces, or she didn’t have enough faith, or she wasn’t righteous enough, or any number of things. She died from her ailment. So did another friend who had a brain tumor despite the same healing service. His wife swears that when she got home from the funeral there was a yellow rose on her bed and that God put it there. So God’s in the business of handing out yellow roses to grieving widows, but not healing their husbands so that they didn’t die of cancer?
I’m not suggesting that it should be God’s business to make us all live forever. I’m simply suggesting we stop attributing small things, while significant to us, to a deity. I’m suggesting that perhaps we have a lot of wishful thinking.
I once brought into my place of work pictures of veal calves stuck in their pens. I wanted to get people to not eat veal because of how cruel the process of creating veal is. One of my coworkers said she was going to eat more veal as a result.
This relates to you posting a verse of scripture – you are working against yourself. Want to attract people to Christianity? Then make it look appealing. Live your principles, respect your deity, be happy and peaceful. I know at least one Christian who actually scares me she is so good at this. Of all the Christians I have ever encountered, she is the one who has been able to make it look good. She is one of the most joyful, kind people I have ever met. She knows me well, and she doesn’t push it. She has respectfully engaged me in conversation, but has not proselytized.
I am not a wishy-washy atheist – I am not sitting on any fence. She has been able to get me to a point of vulnerability where I could envision the next step towards attempting to develop some kind of faith. I went there willingly, thinking I was being open-minded. In the end, she blew it by giving me a cd of a sermon from her pastor in which he laid out how to properly evangelize one’s friends. I don’t know why she thought that was a good idea, but it wasn’t.
As an aside, she also gave me a book called The God Question. I did not read it for at least a year, but I did read it because she gave it to me. It must have seemed like it put forth convincing arguments for the existence of God, but I knew all the arguments and counter-arguments already. It used big words that might have been able to convince somebody who, for instance, doesn’t understand a bit about how evolution works, or who has passed a legitimate high school Earth Science class.
I felt a bit betrayed, but I still care deeply about her and will engage in conversations with her about God any time. Such is the strength of her character. It might behoove you to find someone like that and bask in his or her presence for a while.
Ruth, I have often wondered if these healings which take place in Churches are real, would it not make more sense for Churches to liquidate and set up shop in every hospital in the world. Now that would be a testimony.
You misunderstand me. I’m not trying to force you to do anything. I’m only here to reason with those who desire the truth.
Have you noticed the title of this blog? Yet, the creator of it along with everyone else here is always puzzled and annoyed when I am only doing what the blog claims is it’s purpose.
The only way to find truth is through debate/ dialog. And what is key here and also unfortunately despised is disagreement and questions that challenge the popular beliefs on this site.
This certainly isn’t how to find truth. It has nothing to do with truth actually. It’s about something else entirely. I think Nate should seriously consider a new name for this site.
“I have to ask myself from time to time why this is such an important topic to me, why I have spent hours upon hours “debating” theists (almost invariably Christian). My answer is that Christians have the power to enact legislation and develop/implement policies that affect us all. I think people need to know we atheists exist and are not going away. ”
Atheists have the power to do the very same.. implement policies that affect us all. There is no difference, and we all have the right to vote how we feel.
That right there is a good reason to engage in debate about this issue. I don’t know why this puzzles you. Finding truth (literally, not pretend).. is incredibly important to our society. What else could be more important than Truth?
Finding Truth 
““No he wouldn’t Kathy ! A Security Company technician who works on hundreds of cameras for hundreds of customers would not be surprised at this but 1 police officer watching 13 cameras most likely never had this happen before .”
Ok, so you’re saying that the police officer never bothered to ask the security technician or anyone else about this?
And, also, no one has a response to my point about the figure going BEHIND an object on the screen and then reappearing?
These explanations aren’t good enough.
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“I thought it was interesting that Ruth never addressed if anyone she knew had a story when I asked her about that.
I did. I even related one of my own. That particular post downloads to my computer very slowly so I’m not going to go copy and paste my comment here.”
Yes, you shared your experience.. but you didn’t address if you knew anyone else who had a story. This was as much a part of my point as your own personal experience(s).
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This has again become a “Kathy Conversation”
I’m not wasting any more of my time with her. I will be happy to exchange comments with others.
No offense Kathy. I don’t think you are interested in logical conclusions.
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“Reason cannot convince you if you WANT to believe something else.”
VERY well said, KC!
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Right, Kathy, I think we may need to agree to disagree about this. You believe the Bible to be the divinely inspired word of God and I do not. We’ve discussed the reasons why I believe what I believe and why you believe what you believe. I don’t think there’s sufficient evidence to conclude divine inspiration. Clearly you do. I do not believe I’m a sinner in need of salvation. You believe that you and everybody else is. The entire thing is circular. We’re born sinners but we have a choice to never sin? Which implies that we could live perfect, blameless, lives According to your own ancient writ this is an impossibility.
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but you didn’t address if you knew anyone else who had a story. This was as much a part of my point as your own personal experience(s).
Yes, I related a story about my uncle. I really don’t want to go back down this trail of being accused of not answering your questions.
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“Reason cannot convince you if you WANT to believe something else.”
VERY well said, KC!
Thank you , Nan !
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“We’re born sinners but we have a choice to never sin? Which implies that we could live perfect, blameless, lives According to your own ancient writ this is an impossibility.”
Which is why I never stated that.
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“Yes, I related a story about my uncle. I really don’t want to go back down this trail of being accused of not answering your questions.”
oh yes.. the “crazy” uncle.. of course.. so, no one else Ruth? You never said yes or no.
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“I’m not wasting any more of my time with her. I will be happy to exchange comments with others.
No offense Kathy. I don’t think you are interested in logical conclusions.”
Yep, all my fault again.. I ask questions and hope for answers.. silly me.
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“And being born as a sinner doesn’t excuse your sin. You have free will to choose not to sin. You, all of us, make the choice to sin every day.”
Ruth, here is another Kathy contradiction . She says, ” you have free will to choose not to sin. ”
You said, “Which implies that we could live perfect, blameless, lives According to your own ancient writ this is an impossibility.”
She now says, “Which is why I never stated that.”
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“I ask questions and hope for answers.. silly me.”
NO Kathy, you ask questions and ignore answers. Silly US !
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So, it seems kc, that you’ll only engage with me when you feel like you can “win” the point?
sigh…
Nothing I stated was untrue.. we have the free will to not sin.. but, say you’re 3 or 4.. it’s not likely you’re going to make the sinless choice. This again has turned into a silly debate of technicalities.. aka desperation.
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What answer did you give for the figure going behind the object and then reappearing??
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“What answer did you give for the figure going behind the object and then reappearing??”
If the signal dropped out then reappeared. This would cause it, but this would be too logical.
“we have the free will to not sin.. but, say you’re 3 or 4.. it’s not likely you’re going to make the sinless choice.”
Really Kathy ???? I have never had a Minister say he thinks children 3 or 4 are capable of sinning. I was always told there was an “age of accountability”
You are proof why so many Christians become confused by statements like this and eventually de-convert.
LikeLike
I ask questions and hope for answers.. silly me.
As has been stated a NUMBER of times before, you have been provided answers but you refuse to accept them and instead go back to harping on the same old things … over and over and over again. It’s just gotten old, Kathy.
I join with KC … and I hope others do too. It’s time to move on.
And since this is an “open conversation,” did anyone watch Scorpion? Would you want to be that smart?
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“OK The thunderstorm explains this one .”
I acknowledged this.. you DIDN’T acknowledge the peculiar timing of this event and that the lamp never did it since.. although I will admit that I eventually got rid of it and never got another one..lol..
“The 2nd incident a day or two later happened when I went to check on my daughter before going to bed.. like I always did. She was about 8 or 9 at the time I think. Anyway, her lamp next to her bed was on and she was sound asleep. ”
“You could have become distracted and forgot to turn it off. I have done this more than once. Who hasn’t ?”
Yep, but again, you fail to acknowledge the circumstances.. this is just not likely.. I lived it, I know the circumstances and again the peculiar timing and that it never happened again.. you ignore this, you just slap on any explanation that gets you buy and move on.
“first happened when I was watching tv, the lamp next to me flickered on and off twice within a few seconds time.. it was during the day so the lamp was not on.”
“The switch could have actually been stuck in the middle. A vibration (big loud truck going past the house) could have triggered it to flicker.”
Nope, it flickered twice. And there was no loud truck, I’d have noticed that .. as I explained I SEARCHED for an explanation, I checked the turn switch.. it was tight and in the off position.
“Naturally, I wanted to believe that it was one or both of my parents. But, after talking to people more knowledgeable than me about Christianity and the Bible, I was told that it wasn’t them, but demonic spirits wanting to deceive me into believing it was them.”
Exactly ! You WANTED to believe it was a deceased loved one.
Again, you ignore that I changed that belief when I learned about scripture. It was NOT what I wanted to believe.. I definitely didn’t want to believe it was a demon.
Reason cannot convince you if you WANT to believe something else.
I was convinced of something else.
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Kathy,
Of course you are trying to debate, but why? What do you hope the outcome will be? I just don’t get it. I am not one for debating, really, but I will gladly answer whatever questions you may have that will afford you a greater understanding of what atheism is. You seem to be curiously curious about it.
I have to ask myself from time to time why this is such an important topic to me, why I have spent hours upon hours “debating” theists (almost invariably Christian). My answer is that Christians have the power to enact legislation and develop/implement policies that affect us all. I think people need to know we atheists exist and are not going away.
I grew tired of feeling like I need to apologize for existing and for feeling like an outsider. I do not want to convince anybody that he or she should not believe as you do. I wish you and other Christians happiness in your journey. I have much respect for Christians, and theists in general, who can just be content on their paths and let others be on theirs. What I don’t understand is why what we believe or don’t believe is so important to you.
Would it make you happy if I said I believed, but didn’t? I do that occasionally with the elderly people with whom I work, because what I believe is irrelevant in that context. These people are sick and often close to the end of their lives; they need their faith. Is that what you need? Are you fighting to keep it? I don’t think people want to take your faith away from you. Why is it so important for us to share that faith?
If you have the ability to mindfully observe your actions and question your motives, you might find you can move beyond this place where you seem to be stuck. I am trying to continue to be where I want to be, which is in a place of acute awareness and peace. Your path will not work for me; I have my own.
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“And since this is an “open conversation,” did anyone watch Scorpion? Would you want to be that smart?”
I watched it Nan, quite by accident. I would NOT want to be this smart and I have nothing to worry about. 🙂
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“If the signal dropped out then reappeared. This would cause it, but this would be too logical.”
Do you understand odds? Those are pretty amazing odds.. and when you put it together with all the other steps you claim explain it, you’re the one who isn’t being very logical or reasonable.
“we have the free will to not sin.. but, say you’re 3 or 4.. it’s not likely you’re going to make the sinless choice.”
Really Kathy ???? I have never had a Minister say he thinks children 3 or 4 are capable of sinning. I was always told there was an “age of accountability”:
We weren’t talking about accountability, we were talking about sin.
“You are proof why so many Christians become confused by statements like this and eventually de-convert.”
You are showing what happens when there is no objectivity.
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Kathy, I’m not sure what you’re after in asking if I know anyone else who has a story. Yes, I know other people who have stories. All the ones I know of have perfectly natural explanations, it’s simply that the people involved want to believe there’s some providence involved.
My close friend, who is a devout Christian and believes in demonic possession, the power witchcraft, and who also believes she’s seen another realm where angels and demons are warring, swears that she was watching a tv preacher and he asked that those at home put their hands to the tv against his while he prayed for healing for them or their loved ones. She swears this cured her child’s ear infection. The truth is she’d taken her child to the doctor and she’d been given antibiotics for her infection.
The same woman believes that, even though another of her children had been under the care of a doctor and had received treatment for scoliosis, the laying on of hands by the deacons in our church during a healing service was responsible for her spinal correction.
I guess our other friend who had cancer and received that same laying on of hands wasn’t in God’s good graces, or she didn’t have enough faith, or she wasn’t righteous enough, or any number of things. She died from her ailment. So did another friend who had a brain tumor despite the same healing service. His wife swears that when she got home from the funeral there was a yellow rose on her bed and that God put it there. So God’s in the business of handing out yellow roses to grieving widows, but not healing their husbands so that they didn’t die of cancer?
I’m not suggesting that it should be God’s business to make us all live forever. I’m simply suggesting we stop attributing small things, while significant to us, to a deity. I’m suggesting that perhaps we have a lot of wishful thinking.
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Kathy,
I once brought into my place of work pictures of veal calves stuck in their pens. I wanted to get people to not eat veal because of how cruel the process of creating veal is. One of my coworkers said she was going to eat more veal as a result.
This relates to you posting a verse of scripture – you are working against yourself. Want to attract people to Christianity? Then make it look appealing. Live your principles, respect your deity, be happy and peaceful. I know at least one Christian who actually scares me she is so good at this. Of all the Christians I have ever encountered, she is the one who has been able to make it look good. She is one of the most joyful, kind people I have ever met. She knows me well, and she doesn’t push it. She has respectfully engaged me in conversation, but has not proselytized.
I am not a wishy-washy atheist – I am not sitting on any fence. She has been able to get me to a point of vulnerability where I could envision the next step towards attempting to develop some kind of faith. I went there willingly, thinking I was being open-minded. In the end, she blew it by giving me a cd of a sermon from her pastor in which he laid out how to properly evangelize one’s friends. I don’t know why she thought that was a good idea, but it wasn’t.
As an aside, she also gave me a book called The God Question. I did not read it for at least a year, but I did read it because she gave it to me. It must have seemed like it put forth convincing arguments for the existence of God, but I knew all the arguments and counter-arguments already. It used big words that might have been able to convince somebody who, for instance, doesn’t understand a bit about how evolution works, or who has passed a legitimate high school Earth Science class.
I felt a bit betrayed, but I still care deeply about her and will engage in conversations with her about God any time. Such is the strength of her character. It might behoove you to find someone like that and bask in his or her presence for a while.
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Ruth, I have often wondered if these healings which take place in Churches are real, would it not make more sense for Churches to liquidate and set up shop in every hospital in the world. Now that would be a testimony.
LikeLike
“Who knows what topics will come up next?”
God only knows —
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Gliese,
You misunderstand me. I’m not trying to force you to do anything. I’m only here to reason with those who desire the truth.
Have you noticed the title of this blog? Yet, the creator of it along with everyone else here is always puzzled and annoyed when I am only doing what the blog claims is it’s purpose.
The only way to find truth is through debate/ dialog. And what is key here and also unfortunately despised is disagreement and questions that challenge the popular beliefs on this site.
This certainly isn’t how to find truth. It has nothing to do with truth actually. It’s about something else entirely. I think Nate should seriously consider a new name for this site.
“I have to ask myself from time to time why this is such an important topic to me, why I have spent hours upon hours “debating” theists (almost invariably Christian). My answer is that Christians have the power to enact legislation and develop/implement policies that affect us all. I think people need to know we atheists exist and are not going away. ”
Atheists have the power to do the very same.. implement policies that affect us all. There is no difference, and we all have the right to vote how we feel.
That right there is a good reason to engage in debate about this issue. I don’t know why this puzzles you. Finding truth (literally, not pretend).. is incredibly important to our society. What else could be more important than Truth?
LikeLike