“Dave, are you claiming that all those numerous examples of “multiple gods” in the Bible were simply “missed”? That they didn’t notice those passages? Is that your explanation?”
I didn’t see where you addressed this.. did I miss it?
Dave, are you claiming that all those numerous examples of “multiple gods” in the Bible were simply “missed”? That they didn’t notice those passages? Is that your explanation?
For one, there aren’t that many references. Secondly, we have proof that some were changed (interpreted). So yes, the others were missed. You seem to want to make these scribes into super-humans: no mistakes and no false motives.
“William, I see zero “waffling”.. can you be more specific? How was I trying to change it?
And what exactly does this prove anyway?” – kathy
it proves that you arent consistent or honest.
You asked for which had the most credentials for being true. Then, after many answers you claim that you weren’t asking about which was true regarding it’s divine claims, then about which was true, but about which had more evidence.
I feel like this is pretty clear.
too prideful to admit it? pride is a sin you know.
What scientific evidence backs up the atheist belief that if there is a fictional story about a flood that means it couldn’t actually happen.. because according to atheists, it already was written about. Makes no sense.
I brought it up because there are a lot of similarities between the stories. It’s not that something written about can’t happen, it’s that it looks like one was adapted from the other. The Epic of Gilgamesh dates further back and would have been available to the authors of genesis. Here are some similarities:
– God (or one of the gods) knew of one righteous man, Ut-Napishtim or Noah.
– One of the gods (or God) ordered the hero to build a multi-story wooden ark.
– The ark would be sealed with pitch.
– The ark would have many internal compartments.
– It would have a single door.
– The ark was built and loaded with the hero, a few other humans, and samples from all species of other land animals.
– A great rain covered the land with water.
– The mountains were submerged under water.
– The ark landed on a mountain in the Middle East.
– The hero sent out birds at regular intervals to find if any dry land was in the vicinity.
– The first two birds returned to the ark. The third bird apparently found dry land because it did not return.
– The hero and his family left the ark, ritually killed an animal, offered it as a sacrifice.
– God (or the gods in the Epic of Gilgamesh) smelled the roasted meat of the sacrifice.
How can you make this statement and then remain so indignant toward those who don’t believe in your God?”-Ruth
Because the alternate theory makes LESS sense. -Kathy
So we should establish our belief of the universe’s origin by seeing which one makes the most sense? Let’s see, one is simple: space, matter and energy always existing – the other is complex: an invisible, super smart, super powerful mind always existing. Of these two options, which makes more sense? Hint: one of them has actually been observed.
Here is what happens when conscious beings jump to conclusions about their existence:
Person: Because I exist God exists
God1: Because I exist God2 exists
God2: Because I exist God3 exists
God3: Because I exist God4 exists
and so on..
…..
The flood that “was already was written about” happened in 2900 BCE, 300+ years before the alleged biblical flood, when the Euphrates River overflowed its banks near the city of Shuruppak, in what is now Iraq. It flooded an area equivalent to about three counties, to a depth of 15 cubits (22.5 feet) – the same 15 cubits the Bible says the entire world was covered above the highest mountains. Areal, historical king, Ziusudra, escaped the flood in a trading barge carrying cattle, cotton and beer, and sailed on down to the Persian Gulf. The story that was written, about a hundred years later – The Epic of Gilgamesh – was fictional story, using the real flood for material. Unlike the story of Noah, it was never presented as being anything other than fiction, yet it was stolen by the Jews and used for their fairy tale, even to the point of using some of the actual wording.
You’re leaving out the most damning part, Dave – the fact that in both the epic and the Bible, the exact phrase is used regarding the sacrifice: the gods/god “smelled the sweet savor” – that is VERY telling evidence of plagiarism.
I still don’t know what you are referencing.. I noticed you did not post
my exact words.. any particular reason for this?
Please post the exact words that you claim are not “honest”.. and please explain specifically
why you believe I was being “dishonest”.. using those exact words that you reposted.
Again, I see no conflicts in my words.. if there were changes it was because I was trying to
help you and others understand my question.. which sadly was not a complicated one at all.
So, please be specific.. isolate the words that are “dishonest”..
Dave, are you claiming that all those numerous examples of “multiple gods” in the Bible were simply “missed”? That they didn’t notice those passages? Is that your explanation?
For one, there aren’t that many references. Secondly, we have proof that some were changed (interpreted). So yes, the others were missed. You seem to want to make these scribes into super-humans: no mistakes and no false motives.”
Dave, I’m sorry but your claim is laughable.. it’s just not reasonable. People lived their lives based on the Bible and Jesus’ teachings…. yet you claim that none of them noticed this “conflict” over a MAJOR doctrine? With all the editing atheists like to claim happened in the Bible, it’s not realistic that they would miss the scriptures about multiple gods in a Book about a faith that clearly claims ONE God. Making this claim makes me question your worthiness to debate with, Dave. I’m not trying to be mean or insulting.. but you made claims about me a while ago that were flat out not true.. and if I don’t debate with you anymore you’ll restate those false claims.. well, THIS is why I don’t answer everyone’s questions.. it’s a waste of time if people refuse to be reasonable and apply honesty and objectivity.
fat Kathy, the only person being dishonest here is you. you aren’t capable of being honest.
@kathyI follow God.. not gays. I want to please God.. and part of pleasing Him is to love others.. including gays.
no Kathy you do not follow god, the biggest lie you tell is that you are a Christian, you are not. nothing Christian about you. Christians are supposed to represent Christ, you are the exact opposite. everyone here knows the teachings of jesus, and they know you do not represent his “love” at all.
furthermore, you do not love the gays, I don’t want them to be mistreated or oppressed. But, God is infinitely wiser than liberals.. He knows what is best. And redefining marriage is not what is best for the human species.
your hateful antigay rhetoric is what gets gay people attacked and causes gay youths to commit suicide.
you fat idiot, saying that gays marrying is going to cause the collapse of civilization is a total lie. you have not one shred of evidence to back that up, it’s only your hate. no civilization in history has collapsed due to gay people. it’s never happened. and sodom and gomorrah was not about gay people, it was about hateful people like you.
furthermore, saying that gay marriage will harm children, FUCK YOU, gays will certainly be better parents than you ever were. little teenage whore getting knocked up, then forcing her boyfriend to marry her, then divorce 2 yrs later. what a crock of shit. you sucked as a wife, a parent and a human being. your poor daughter, thankfully she had a sane father that showed her real parental love, and not the insanity you put her through.
@Kathy Dave. I’m not trying to be mean or insulting.. but you made claims about me a while ago that were flat out not true..
Kathy, that is exactly what you want to do, be mean and insulting, you insult and lie about everyone here in every comment you make. that’s the only reason you go on these websites is to insult “liberals”. calling them dishonest, when it’s you that’s the fucking liar.
dave made no claims about you that weren’t true. it’s you that has made claims about everyone here that aren’t true.
you dont’ have a fucking brain in your head.
too bad the bible isn’t true, you deserve to burn for all eternity. you are a worthless piece of shit and deep down you know it.
Dave, I’m sorry but your claim is laughable.. it’s just not reasonable. People lived their lives based on the Bible and Jesus’ teachings…. yet you claim that none of them noticed this “conflict” over a MAJOR doctrine? With all the editing atheists like to claim happened in the Bible, it’s not realistic that they would miss the scriptures about multiple gods in a Book about a faith that clearly claims ONE God. Making this claim makes me question your worthiness to debate with, Dave. I’m not trying to be mean or insulting.. but you made claims about me a while ago that were flat out not true.. and if I don’t debate with you anymore you’ll restate those false claims.. well, THIS is why I don’t answer everyone’s questions.. it’s a waste of time if people refuse to be reasonable and apply honesty and objectivity.
Kathy, I had been planning on retracting my statement that you don’t engage because you have been discussing this passage with me. Please consider it retracted.
Kathy, if you don’t think it’s possible for something to be overlooked by the scribes then just disagree with me. That’s all.
Honestly, I think the passages that are most compelling are the ones that were changed and especially Deut. 32:8-9. The others are just references to “other gods” which could be thought as “other false gods”. So there would have been no “big red flags” on those. Did you see my comment concerning the context of the phrase in question and the use of the word inheritance: link
Well, if you say so Pauline, as you would know far more about what goes on in your mind than I would, what with you being closer to it and all, I can only say that I have no idea what my sexual orientation was at birth, as I was awfully young at the time.
I’m not really a huge fan of this sort of music, but I found this interesting,
I disagree with some of it though, I don’t think Christians really see the solution to be religion, I think we see the way to be through a connection with God.
Porta, the only rap I’m familiar with is one that my daughter put on my iPod – it’s Missy Elliot’s ‘Push It’. I think she put it on there for the outrageous factor. Corny is not the word I would use to describe it.
I mean Derek Minor identifies as a Christian hip hop artist according to wiki, so it stands to reason his music focuses on his faith. I thinks some of the lyrics in it are interesting anyway, specifically the listening bit, I think there is a risk sometimes to talk to people without considering where they are coming from.
“Kathy, if you don’t think it’s possible for something to be overlooked by the scribes then just disagree with me. That’s all. ”
Dave, what if I said that to you about a key point you were arguing after I’d given you an unrealistic explanation? I don’t want to move on to another point when this one is very valid and you haven’t given a reasonable explanation.
You’re claiming that the Bible was “edited” to mislead people.. but that several parts of the Bible were left alone which would blatantly conflict with the edits that were intended to mislead people. Don’t you think they would have checked the whole Bible? It just doesn’t make sense.
Maybe you have a plausible scenario that would convince me? I can’t think of one myself.
If there isn’t a reasonable explanation then it’s clear that there was no deceptive editing going on. The intent was to get the accurate interpretation in all instances.
“Honestly, I think the passages that are most compelling are the ones that were changed and especially Deut. 32:8-9.”
Again, you say “changed” when they are actually interpretations. And you also have to remember that interpretation is based on context.. surrounding context and overall context.
If you look at the context in the song.. it is clearly praising ONE God. What context in that song supports multiple gods other than that one line interpreted by one small group of people? Context is extremely important in interpretation. If you could wave the other “gods” then all the more reason to give this one the benefit of the doubt .. especially since the context doesn’t fit your conclusion.
Also, your whole claim is based on the belief that the Song of Moses came before all the other Biblical writings. What is the evidence for this belief? That songs are easily passed down orally? So, again, like with the flood, no new song could be written because they “can” be older?
Finding Truth 
Dave,
“Dave, are you claiming that all those numerous examples of “multiple gods” in the Bible were simply “missed”? That they didn’t notice those passages? Is that your explanation?”
I didn’t see where you addressed this.. did I miss it?
I’d like to settle this point.
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Sorry, missed that one.
For one, there aren’t that many references. Secondly, we have proof that some were changed (interpreted). So yes, the others were missed. You seem to want to make these scribes into super-humans: no mistakes and no false motives.
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“William, I see zero “waffling”.. can you be more specific? How was I trying to change it?
And what exactly does this prove anyway?” – kathy
it proves that you arent consistent or honest.
You asked for which had the most credentials for being true. Then, after many answers you claim that you weren’t asking about which was true regarding it’s divine claims, then about which was true, but about which had more evidence.
I feel like this is pretty clear.
too prideful to admit it? pride is a sin you know.
LikeLike
I brought it up because there are a lot of similarities between the stories. It’s not that something written about can’t happen, it’s that it looks like one was adapted from the other. The Epic of Gilgamesh dates further back and would have been available to the authors of genesis. Here are some similarities:
LikeLike
So we should establish our belief of the universe’s origin by seeing which one makes the most sense? Let’s see, one is simple: space, matter and energy always existing – the other is complex: an invisible, super smart, super powerful mind always existing. Of these two options, which makes more sense? Hint: one of them has actually been observed.
LikeLike
Here is what happens when conscious beings jump to conclusions about their existence:
Person: Because I exist God exists
God1: Because I exist God2 exists
God2: Because I exist God3 exists
God3: Because I exist God4 exists
and so on..
…..
LikeLike
Some people believe the bible teaches Because God exists I exist.
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The flood that “was already was written about” happened in 2900 BCE, 300+ years before the alleged biblical flood, when the Euphrates River overflowed its banks near the city of Shuruppak, in what is now Iraq. It flooded an area equivalent to about three counties, to a depth of 15 cubits (22.5 feet) – the same 15 cubits the Bible says the entire world was covered above the highest mountains. Areal, historical king, Ziusudra, escaped the flood in a trading barge carrying cattle, cotton and beer, and sailed on down to the Persian Gulf. The story that was written, about a hundred years later – The Epic of Gilgamesh – was fictional story, using the real flood for material. Unlike the story of Noah, it was never presented as being anything other than fiction, yet it was stolen by the Jews and used for their fairy tale, even to the point of using some of the actual wording.
LikeLike
You’re leaving out the most damning part, Dave – the fact that in both the epic and the Bible, the exact phrase is used regarding the sacrifice: the gods/god “smelled the sweet savor” – that is VERY telling evidence of plagiarism.
LikeLike
William,
“it proves that you arent consistent or honest.”
I still don’t know what you are referencing.. I noticed you did not post
my exact words.. any particular reason for this?
Please post the exact words that you claim are not “honest”.. and please explain specifically
why you believe I was being “dishonest”.. using those exact words that you reposted.
Again, I see no conflicts in my words.. if there were changes it was because I was trying to
help you and others understand my question.. which sadly was not a complicated one at all.
So, please be specific.. isolate the words that are “dishonest”..
LikeLike
“Dave
October 15, 2014 at 1:45 pm
Sorry, missed that one.
Dave, are you claiming that all those numerous examples of “multiple gods” in the Bible were simply “missed”? That they didn’t notice those passages? Is that your explanation?
For one, there aren’t that many references. Secondly, we have proof that some were changed (interpreted). So yes, the others were missed. You seem to want to make these scribes into super-humans: no mistakes and no false motives.”
Dave, I’m sorry but your claim is laughable.. it’s just not reasonable. People lived their lives based on the Bible and Jesus’ teachings…. yet you claim that none of them noticed this “conflict” over a MAJOR doctrine? With all the editing atheists like to claim happened in the Bible, it’s not realistic that they would miss the scriptures about multiple gods in a Book about a faith that clearly claims ONE God. Making this claim makes me question your worthiness to debate with, Dave. I’m not trying to be mean or insulting.. but you made claims about me a while ago that were flat out not true.. and if I don’t debate with you anymore you’ll restate those false claims.. well, THIS is why I don’t answer everyone’s questions.. it’s a waste of time if people refuse to be reasonable and apply honesty and objectivity.
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fat Kathy, the only person being dishonest here is you. you aren’t capable of being honest.
@kathyI follow God.. not gays. I want to please God.. and part of pleasing Him is to love others.. including gays.
no Kathy you do not follow god, the biggest lie you tell is that you are a Christian, you are not. nothing Christian about you. Christians are supposed to represent Christ, you are the exact opposite. everyone here knows the teachings of jesus, and they know you do not represent his “love” at all.
furthermore, you do not love the gays, I don’t want them to be mistreated or oppressed. But, God is infinitely wiser than liberals.. He knows what is best. And redefining marriage is not what is best for the human species.
your hateful antigay rhetoric is what gets gay people attacked and causes gay youths to commit suicide.
you fat idiot, saying that gays marrying is going to cause the collapse of civilization is a total lie. you have not one shred of evidence to back that up, it’s only your hate. no civilization in history has collapsed due to gay people. it’s never happened. and sodom and gomorrah was not about gay people, it was about hateful people like you.
furthermore, saying that gay marriage will harm children, FUCK YOU, gays will certainly be better parents than you ever were. little teenage whore getting knocked up, then forcing her boyfriend to marry her, then divorce 2 yrs later. what a crock of shit. you sucked as a wife, a parent and a human being. your poor daughter, thankfully she had a sane father that showed her real parental love, and not the insanity you put her through.
@Kathy Dave. I’m not trying to be mean or insulting.. but you made claims about me a while ago that were flat out not true..
Kathy, that is exactly what you want to do, be mean and insulting, you insult and lie about everyone here in every comment you make. that’s the only reason you go on these websites is to insult “liberals”. calling them dishonest, when it’s you that’s the fucking liar.
dave made no claims about you that weren’t true. it’s you that has made claims about everyone here that aren’t true.
you dont’ have a fucking brain in your head.
too bad the bible isn’t true, you deserve to burn for all eternity. you are a worthless piece of shit and deep down you know it.
laugh out fucking loud!!!!!!!!!!!
see ya in Sarasota, bitch!!!!!!!!!
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arch, I was born gay, just ask my parents, my first words were, “girlfiend, please!”
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Kathy, I had been planning on retracting my statement that you don’t engage because you have been discussing this passage with me. Please consider it retracted.
Kathy, if you don’t think it’s possible for something to be overlooked by the scribes then just disagree with me. That’s all.
Honestly, I think the passages that are most compelling are the ones that were changed and especially Deut. 32:8-9. The others are just references to “other gods” which could be thought as “other false gods”. So there would have been no “big red flags” on those. Did you see my comment concerning the context of the phrase in question and the use of the word inheritance: link
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“THIS is why I don’t answer everyone’s questions.. it’s a waste of time if people refuse to be reasonable and apply honesty and objectivity.”
So why don’t you go spout your nonsense somewhere else? Oh, that’s right – you’ve been banned everywhere else!
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Well, if you say so Pauline, as you would know far more about what goes on in your mind than I would, what with you being closer to it and all, I can only say that I have no idea what my sexual orientation was at birth, as I was awfully young at the time.
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Good grief. Kudos to all of you. My head is spinning.
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I’m not really a huge fan of this sort of music, but I found this interesting,
I disagree with some of it though, I don’t think Christians really see the solution to be religion, I think we see the way to be through a connection with God.
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Its a bit corny though 🙂
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I mean, I find a lot of rap corny though, it might just be me
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Porta, the only rap I’m familiar with is one that my daughter put on my iPod – it’s Missy Elliot’s ‘Push It’. I think she put it on there for the outrageous factor. Corny is not the word I would use to describe it.
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I mean Derek Minor identifies as a Christian hip hop artist according to wiki, so it stands to reason his music focuses on his faith. I thinks some of the lyrics in it are interesting anyway, specifically the listening bit, I think there is a risk sometimes to talk to people without considering where they are coming from.
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and also to not assume that to know where people are coming from,
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Rap is to music as Etch-a-Sketch is to art.
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Dave,
“Kathy, if you don’t think it’s possible for something to be overlooked by the scribes then just disagree with me. That’s all. ”
Dave, what if I said that to you about a key point you were arguing after I’d given you an unrealistic explanation? I don’t want to move on to another point when this one is very valid and you haven’t given a reasonable explanation.
You’re claiming that the Bible was “edited” to mislead people.. but that several parts of the Bible were left alone which would blatantly conflict with the edits that were intended to mislead people. Don’t you think they would have checked the whole Bible? It just doesn’t make sense.
Maybe you have a plausible scenario that would convince me? I can’t think of one myself.
If there isn’t a reasonable explanation then it’s clear that there was no deceptive editing going on. The intent was to get the accurate interpretation in all instances.
“Honestly, I think the passages that are most compelling are the ones that were changed and especially Deut. 32:8-9.”
Again, you say “changed” when they are actually interpretations. And you also have to remember that interpretation is based on context.. surrounding context and overall context.
If you look at the context in the song.. it is clearly praising ONE God. What context in that song supports multiple gods other than that one line interpreted by one small group of people? Context is extremely important in interpretation. If you could wave the other “gods” then all the more reason to give this one the benefit of the doubt .. especially since the context doesn’t fit your conclusion.
Also, your whole claim is based on the belief that the Song of Moses came before all the other Biblical writings. What is the evidence for this belief? That songs are easily passed down orally? So, again, like with the flood, no new song could be written because they “can” be older?
LikeLike