yeah, no one is 100% objective. We all have our biases.
but people can train themselves to be less influenced by them and train themselves to reevaluate their position and how bias affects it. Perhaps merely having the knowledge that we’re biased and lack the ability to be completely free of it is enough to help get us around it.
Empathy comes in part from this practice I think.
As far as kathy, she believes we are all biased to the point of being blind to the other side, and we likely think the same with her. There is one significant difference though, and that is that we have shown the ability to make a big change, to question our former biases and to challenge our earlier positions to the point that we made undeniable and difficult changes – in other words, we have proven that we are able to check our biases and change our minds.
This does not prove we’re correct, but it strongly suggests, if not proves, that we are not prisoners to intellectual and philosophical inertia.
I agree with kathy in that we should weigh the evidences, I just think we need to consider all, or as much evidence as we can when doing so. And if it’s truth we’re after, we should be willing to consider whatever new evidences may eventually come to light.
I also think it would be wise to really consider a position and a point before dismissing it simply because it doesnt coincide with current beliefs.
…butt-holes; everybody has one. except unlike butt-holes, your opinions should be thoroughly and routinely examined.
Even a routine exam of that outlet is highly encouraged. When I make that statement it’s usually about myself, as an indication that I could be wrong. Which I often am.
everyone should have colonoscopy,
the propofol alone makes it totally worth your while.
I really don’t understand why ryan got so upset.
it’s actually all very biblical.
Matthew 7:1-3King James Version (KJV)
7 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
Kathy judges (unfairly) that most here are being dishonest,
she is just getting her comeuppance in accordance with the policies and procedures that jeeezzzuuuusss himself concocted when some of us (rightly, with evidence to back it up) judge her as being dishonest.
oh well, that’s between ryan and his savior I suppose.
I’m watching a fascinating video of the animals of Australia. Kathy has informed us that there IS no such thing as macro evolution, despite the fact that every dog on the planet evolved from a wolf, but it seems – Kathy’s zoological expertise aside – that the kangaroo actually evolved from a tree-dwelling marsupial looking and behaving much like an opossum.
William, “As far as kathy, she believes we are all biased to the point of being blind to the other side, and we likely think the same with her. There is one significant difference though, and that is that we have shown the ability to make a big change, to question our former biases and to challenge our earlier positions to the point that we made undeniable and difficult changes – in other words, we have proven that we are able to check our biases and change our minds.”
I totally agree William, but here’s the problem with Kathy. Kathy and her super hero Mike Anthony refuse to believe that any of us were ever Christians to begin with. You are either “Sold Out” for Jesus Christ forever, or you never were. This is why they refuse to EVER consider our point of view. To even entertain the thought that WE might be right , in and of itself would disqualify them of ever having been Christians (in their own minds).
When you hear a Christian claim to be “Sold Out” for Christ, they are saying it is NOT possible to ever consider a different point of view.
I am dismayed by the accusation that we are all being dishonest. I don’t know if you have accused me specifically, but you imply I am dishonest by lumping me in with all of us liberals/atheists who lack objectivity and are dishonest. I resent being called dishonest, Kathy. How is it, again, that I am being dishonest? The gist of it seems to be that if I say I have weighed all the evidence and found no faith in Christianity, I have obviously not weighed all the evidence. That’s some circular thinking there. I have investigated Christianity a bit, and I simply do not have that faith upon which the whole house of cards is based.
Whatever exposure I’ve had to Christianity has not been conducive to building the faith it takes to willingly suspend my disbelief for more than a short time. How is that dishonest? It is the truth for me. I looked at a reasonable amount of information, gave it a chance to engender faith if it was going to, and when it didn’t, I moved on. What more do you want? What would please you? Do you want people’s minds to fracture? I think you do not know what people have been through to be where they are. You make many assumptions about how people arrive at atheism. It would be dishonest of me to say I believe in a god or that Jesus is its son. Not only would it be untruthful, but it would also be harmful. What kind of contortions would I have to put my mind through to allow myself to have faith in God when faith, by definition, is belief without evidence? I will concede that faith is powerful, but it is the mental processes that create the faith that really matter.
Do you think I have not thought about faith? I wrote a thesis in college titled, “The acquisition of faith: a phenomenological study of spiritual crisis, transcendence, and recovery from addiction.” I’ve done some thinking about it. I had some fledgling faith at one time, but it faded when the factors that were reinforcing it went away. Funny how that is, isn’t it? When I read that paper now, I cringe. Desperation made me vulnerable to the seductive power of indoctrination. Once I got my head together and realized I was going down a weird and unwanted road, I developed a healthy resistance to opportunistic forces like evangelical Christians. I say that because of my direct experience with them.
Faith did enable me to start the process of ripping my psyche apart and putting it back together. The tiny bit of faith I had in a nondescript Something Bigger Than Myself was a powerful agent for change. However, I eventually found it’s all a mind game. My mind screwed with itself in a wonderful way – it still does. When I have had my darkest moments and searched for any kind of faith I might still have, I found none.
I contend that none of anything I’ve said here has to do with an actual god existing. It’s all in people’s minds. The net effect of allowing oneself to have faith is that the mind is playing a different game, and does not mean a god had anything to do with it. Of course, I cannot say for sure that there is no god, but I’m not going to pretend I know there is one.
A very powerful statement, gliese – you never cease to amaze me.
Doubtless Kathy is off harassing someone else this evening, but she’ll be back around midnight or so, rant for an hour or so, then wake up about three pm her time, as is her usual modus operandi.
“Midterm elections are all about turning out base constituencies. Over the last few decades, there have been few more reliable voters for Republicans than white evangelical Protestants. This year, however, GOP candidates may be getting less help from this group—not because white evangelical Protestants are becoming less supportive or less motivated, but simply because they are declining as a proportion of the population, even in Southern states.”
I was curiously looking around to find when Kathy arrived on the scene here at finding truth
and I ran into comments by “Mike Anthony”.
hmmmm….
here is another fact about Kathy, on all of the other blogspots where she appeared, she would have sock puppet accounts, usually in a males name, to back up her opinions. she did this a lot.
she did this every time steven weber would have her accts closed. everytime.
nate Sullivan was one…I can’t really remember the others. she would change the writing style to disguise herself, but usually I could figure it out, it wasn’t that hard.
when I would point it out, she sometimes confessed, but not always.
anyway, I would do more research into this, but, hey, today is gay pride in Sarasota and I have to get busy making myself more beautiful than I actually am..lol
“I was curiously looking around to find when Kathy arrived on the scene here at finding truth and I ran into comments by ‘Mike Anthony’.”
Cliff Notes history lesson, Paul: this all began with “Kathy 1,” and if you’ll go back there, to Nate’s original post, I believe you’ll find a link there that leads to a blog Kathy was posting on – I got more than enough of her here, and so never personally checked it out, but Nate invited her here to continue the discussion. (You have to invite them in, otherwise they can’t cross the threshold – I saw it on old Dracula movies).
And although I can see where you’re going with the Mike Anthony thing, I think you’re off-base this time – Mike, though extremely abrasive and obnoxious, was far more intelligent than Kathy has ever shown herself to be. Mike – btw – was banned for his abrasiveness, then returned under another name, then when threatened with a second banishment, chose to leave voluntarily, after some very nasty threats if we ever mentioned his name again.
“today is gay pride in Sarasota and I have to get busy making myself more beautiful than I actually am..lol”
You’ll probably need to call in a pit crew, as I suspect that’s going to take some work. 🙂
BTW, about this whole Gay Pride parade – I have a question, if you don’t mind discussing it on this forum (but then, why would you, then turn around and join a parade?) – if Gays want acceptance and respect, why go to such lengths to behave bizarrely in a parade? The parade I have no problem with, but the in-your-face behavior may gain you recognition, but I can’t see that it’s likely to be positive recognition.
In the past, I’ve done some work with the Civil Rights movement, and would have no problem at all with a Black Pride parade, but I would certainly question the advisability of marching in loin cloths and carrying spears – sure, it might emphasize their original African heritage, as would chains and leg irons to illustrate their enslavement, but it would also serve to alienate, which I don’t believe would have been their ultimate goal.
just for the record, I’m not doing that today,
but I lived in key west and provincetown mass,
top gay vacation destinations of the world,
I was one of the worst offenders of the in your face. lol.
right Carmen, I look great, and I’ve had hiv for over 30yrs and nearly died twice.
vanity is my greatest virtue/character flaw,
I’m a libra.
and arch,
that behavior is not exclusive to gay parades,
mardi gras,
fantasy fest key west,
carnivale’ brazil,
south beach,
the straight people do it just as well.
“I was one of the worst offenders of the in your face. lol.”
REALLY? Hard to imagine of a shy fellow like yourself! I don’t suppose you’ve ever read any Dale Carnegie, like – oh, I don’t know – “How To Win Friends and Influence People“? Yeah, I know, I get it – where’s the fun in that –?
Finding Truth 
“Do events even really exist? :)” – dave
lol, i’ll just bow out of this discussion here. If i dont exist, i’m not sure i want to know.
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great video Nan, context lol
great website Dave, http://bibviz.com/
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yeah, no one is 100% objective. We all have our biases.
but people can train themselves to be less influenced by them and train themselves to reevaluate their position and how bias affects it. Perhaps merely having the knowledge that we’re biased and lack the ability to be completely free of it is enough to help get us around it.
Empathy comes in part from this practice I think.
As far as kathy, she believes we are all biased to the point of being blind to the other side, and we likely think the same with her. There is one significant difference though, and that is that we have shown the ability to make a big change, to question our former biases and to challenge our earlier positions to the point that we made undeniable and difficult changes – in other words, we have proven that we are able to check our biases and change our minds.
This does not prove we’re correct, but it strongly suggests, if not proves, that we are not prisoners to intellectual and philosophical inertia.
I agree with kathy in that we should weigh the evidences, I just think we need to consider all, or as much evidence as we can when doing so. And if it’s truth we’re after, we should be willing to consider whatever new evidences may eventually come to light.
I also think it would be wise to really consider a position and a point before dismissing it simply because it doesnt coincide with current beliefs.
LikeLike
“As the old saying goes: opinions are like….”
…butt-holes; everybody has one. except unlike butt-holes, your opinions should be thoroughly and routinely examined.
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There are a lot more biases than I realized:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases#Decision-making.2C_belief.2C_and_behavioral_biases
Getting around these would be quite a challenge.
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“As the old saying goes: opinions are like….”
…butt-holes; everybody has one. except unlike butt-holes, your opinions should be thoroughly and routinely examined.
Even a routine exam of that outlet is highly encouraged. When I make that statement it’s usually about myself, as an indication that I could be wrong. Which I often am.
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ruth, as usual, i agree.
in that I could be wrong, and have been before.
but then, others could be wrong and have been before. we shodul do our best to examine all opinions, especially our own.
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everyone should have colonoscopy,
the propofol alone makes it totally worth your while.
I really don’t understand why ryan got so upset.
it’s actually all very biblical.
Matthew 7:1-3King James Version (KJV)
7 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
Kathy judges (unfairly) that most here are being dishonest,
she is just getting her comeuppance in accordance with the policies and procedures that jeeezzzuuuusss himself concocted when some of us (rightly, with evidence to back it up) judge her as being dishonest.
oh well, that’s between ryan and his savior I suppose.
LikeLike
I’m watching a fascinating video of the animals of Australia. Kathy has informed us that there IS no such thing as macro evolution, despite the fact that every dog on the planet evolved from a wolf, but it seems – Kathy’s zoological expertise aside – that the kangaroo actually evolved from a tree-dwelling marsupial looking and behaving much like an opossum.
LikeLike
William, “As far as kathy, she believes we are all biased to the point of being blind to the other side, and we likely think the same with her. There is one significant difference though, and that is that we have shown the ability to make a big change, to question our former biases and to challenge our earlier positions to the point that we made undeniable and difficult changes – in other words, we have proven that we are able to check our biases and change our minds.”
I totally agree William, but here’s the problem with Kathy. Kathy and her super hero Mike Anthony refuse to believe that any of us were ever Christians to begin with. You are either “Sold Out” for Jesus Christ forever, or you never were. This is why they refuse to EVER consider our point of view. To even entertain the thought that WE might be right , in and of itself would disqualify them of ever having been Christians (in their own minds).
When you hear a Christian claim to be “Sold Out” for Christ, they are saying it is NOT possible to ever consider a different point of view.
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Kathy,
I am dismayed by the accusation that we are all being dishonest. I don’t know if you have accused me specifically, but you imply I am dishonest by lumping me in with all of us liberals/atheists who lack objectivity and are dishonest. I resent being called dishonest, Kathy. How is it, again, that I am being dishonest? The gist of it seems to be that if I say I have weighed all the evidence and found no faith in Christianity, I have obviously not weighed all the evidence. That’s some circular thinking there. I have investigated Christianity a bit, and I simply do not have that faith upon which the whole house of cards is based.
Whatever exposure I’ve had to Christianity has not been conducive to building the faith it takes to willingly suspend my disbelief for more than a short time. How is that dishonest? It is the truth for me. I looked at a reasonable amount of information, gave it a chance to engender faith if it was going to, and when it didn’t, I moved on. What more do you want? What would please you? Do you want people’s minds to fracture? I think you do not know what people have been through to be where they are. You make many assumptions about how people arrive at atheism. It would be dishonest of me to say I believe in a god or that Jesus is its son. Not only would it be untruthful, but it would also be harmful. What kind of contortions would I have to put my mind through to allow myself to have faith in God when faith, by definition, is belief without evidence? I will concede that faith is powerful, but it is the mental processes that create the faith that really matter.
Do you think I have not thought about faith? I wrote a thesis in college titled, “The acquisition of faith: a phenomenological study of spiritual crisis, transcendence, and recovery from addiction.” I’ve done some thinking about it. I had some fledgling faith at one time, but it faded when the factors that were reinforcing it went away. Funny how that is, isn’t it? When I read that paper now, I cringe. Desperation made me vulnerable to the seductive power of indoctrination. Once I got my head together and realized I was going down a weird and unwanted road, I developed a healthy resistance to opportunistic forces like evangelical Christians. I say that because of my direct experience with them.
Faith did enable me to start the process of ripping my psyche apart and putting it back together. The tiny bit of faith I had in a nondescript Something Bigger Than Myself was a powerful agent for change. However, I eventually found it’s all a mind game. My mind screwed with itself in a wonderful way – it still does. When I have had my darkest moments and searched for any kind of faith I might still have, I found none.
I contend that none of anything I’ve said here has to do with an actual god existing. It’s all in people’s minds. The net effect of allowing oneself to have faith is that the mind is playing a different game, and does not mean a god had anything to do with it. Of course, I cannot say for sure that there is no god, but I’m not going to pretend I know there is one.
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A very powerful statement, gliese – you never cease to amaze me.
Doubtless Kathy is off harassing someone else this evening, but she’ll be back around midnight or so, rant for an hour or so, then wake up about three pm her time, as is her usual modus operandi.
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Southern Evangelicals: Dwindling—and Taking the GOP Edge With Them
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Thanks, Arch.
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Don’t mention it – to ANYone! You have been warned —
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Good morning! Time to start the day.
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“Good morning!” – an oxymoron if I ever heard one!
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I was curiously looking around to find when Kathy arrived on the scene here at finding truth
and I ran into comments by “Mike Anthony”.
hmmmm….
here is another fact about Kathy, on all of the other blogspots where she appeared, she would have sock puppet accounts, usually in a males name, to back up her opinions. she did this a lot.
she did this every time steven weber would have her accts closed. everytime.
nate Sullivan was one…I can’t really remember the others. she would change the writing style to disguise herself, but usually I could figure it out, it wasn’t that hard.
when I would point it out, she sometimes confessed, but not always.
anyway, I would do more research into this, but, hey, today is gay pride in Sarasota and I have to get busy making myself more beautiful than I actually am..lol
LikeLike
“I was curiously looking around to find when Kathy arrived on the scene here at finding truth and I ran into comments by ‘Mike Anthony’.”
Cliff Notes history lesson, Paul: this all began with “Kathy 1,” and if you’ll go back there, to Nate’s original post, I believe you’ll find a link there that leads to a blog Kathy was posting on – I got more than enough of her here, and so never personally checked it out, but Nate invited her here to continue the discussion. (You have to invite them in, otherwise they can’t cross the threshold – I saw it on old Dracula movies).
And although I can see where you’re going with the Mike Anthony thing, I think you’re off-base this time – Mike, though extremely abrasive and obnoxious, was far more intelligent than Kathy has ever shown herself to be. Mike – btw – was banned for his abrasiveness, then returned under another name, then when threatened with a second banishment, chose to leave voluntarily, after some very nasty threats if we ever mentioned his name again.
“today is gay pride in Sarasota and I have to get busy making myself more beautiful than I actually am..lol”
You’ll probably need to call in a pit crew, as I suspect that’s going to take some work. 🙂
BTW, about this whole Gay Pride parade – I have a question, if you don’t mind discussing it on this forum (but then, why would you, then turn around and join a parade?) – if Gays want acceptance and respect, why go to such lengths to behave bizarrely in a parade? The parade I have no problem with, but the in-your-face behavior may gain you recognition, but I can’t see that it’s likely to be positive recognition.
In the past, I’ve done some work with the Civil Rights movement, and would have no problem at all with a Black Pride parade, but I would certainly question the advisability of marching in loin cloths and carrying spears – sure, it might emphasize their original African heritage, as would chains and leg irons to illustrate their enslavement, but it would also serve to alienate, which I don’t believe would have been their ultimate goal.
I’m just sayin’ —
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well, because it’s fun.
why do anything if it’s not going to be fun?
just for the record, I’m not doing that today,
but I lived in key west and provincetown mass,
top gay vacation destinations of the world,
I was one of the worst offenders of the in your face. lol.
I made a career out of it. $$$$$$$
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and arch, if you had a hot bod like this at the age of 55,
wouldn’t you run around in a loin cloth?
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OMG Paul – is that you?? Whoa!! (I’m saying it, as I’m predicting Arch won’t) 🙂
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right Carmen, I look great, and I’ve had hiv for over 30yrs and nearly died twice.
vanity is my greatest virtue/character flaw,
I’m a libra.
and arch,
that behavior is not exclusive to gay parades,
mardi gras,
fantasy fest key west,
carnivale’ brazil,
south beach,
the straight people do it just as well.
thanks Carmen, you are “The BOMB”
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“I was one of the worst offenders of the in your face. lol.”
REALLY? Hard to imagine of a shy fellow like yourself! I don’t suppose you’ve ever read any Dale Carnegie, like – oh, I don’t know – “How To Win Friends and Influence People“? Yeah, I know, I get it – where’s the fun in that –?
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“wouldn’t you run around in a loin cloth?” – I do that anyway –!
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