Nope. I know it will never happen. I just felt it needed to be said. Many others on this blog have said essentially the same thing about just about every topic that she refutes and nothing has happened yet.
She says she wants a “condensed and precise claim/ argument,” yet she refuses to provide the same.
As you said … the merry-go-round goes round and round.
“What in the world does a dining room or an inscription have to do with meat being offered to idols? This is supposed to be proof???”
Um.. dining rooms in a temple?? No one is claiming it’s proof, but it is compelling evidence.
“Further, most of what is said related to archaeological discoveries on these sites is carefully selected to “prove” certain bible passages or scriptures.”
Exactly. They are selected because they support parts of the Bible.. are they supposed to select random evidence that doesn’t support the Bible? Or are you claiming that other evidence disproves the Bible? If so, what is it??
“If you’re going to use archaeological evidence to prove what you believe to be true about your faith, you need to examine all the archaeological evidence. This would mean extensive research of the places, events, and people of biblical times. Do that and then come back with your evidence and I think you will find people willing to discuss what you have uncovered.”
Who’s not examining all the evidence? Can you post some examples of this??
Compelling evidence of what??? That people ate? That they may have eaten together in a dining room? In the temple? C’mon, Kathy. You’re grasping at straws. It has NOTHING to do with meat being offered to idols and has nothing to do with supporting the referenced scriptures.
… are they supposed to select random evidence that doesn’t support the Bible? That’s a really stupid question and a very poor rebuttal.
Who’s not examining all the evidence? I claim that YOU are not examining all the evidence. If you feel this is incorrect, then YOU post examples of the evidence (and the sources) that you have examined and we’ll go from there.
Hint: Go back and look at the numerous examples of evidence and sources that Arch and others have posted to get an idea of what it means to do research outside the bible-based, Christian websites.
Dave, I’m not interested in spending a lot of time on your “best argument”.. so can you condense it as best you can? What’s the claim, and what SPECIFICALLY is the evidence that backs up this claim. Please give the best arguments.. in other words, be as brief as possible, if I find it a good argument then I’ll have the interest to learn more.
Kathy, this is why everyone gives up on you. Perhaps that is your goal. You want to run and gun and just mock us without engaging. You dismissed my first two reasons and then did not respond to anything else I said about them. If you don’t want to take the time to read and respond I’m not sure why you’re here.
Kathy, either the earth has been around for millions of years or it hasn’t. Which do you believe?
At this point you either have to deny observable science and geometry used to calculate astronomical distances or you have to deny that the bible is to be taken literally.
I was going to rewrite the origin of Yahweh comment, but looking back at it, it really isn’t that long. Here is the summary: Yahweh is one of the sons of the Canaanite’s chief god El Elyon. That’s the claim. For the evidence, read the passage I posted from Deuteronomy carefully and you’ll understand why scholars have concluded that it is a valid theory. It demonstrates one way that the Hebrews adopted and modified ideas from other groups.
“It demonstrates one way that the Hebrews adopted and modified ideas from other groups.”
Indeed. Same with Jesus — adopted and modified ideas and characteristics from other groups / mythological gods.
“Introduction:
There are many dozens of events in the gospels that are very similar, or identical, to incidents which appeared centuries before, in the stories of Pagan hero/saviors. These “god-men” were worshiped by the priesthood and laity of Mediterranean and Middle Eastern religions.”
“Compelling evidence of what??? That people ate? That they may have eaten together in a dining room? In the temple? C’mon, Kathy. You’re grasping at straws. It has NOTHING to do with meat being offered to idols and has nothing to do with supporting the referenced scriptures. ”
Are you claiming that in Paul’s time, there weren’t pagans sacrificing to idols? What is your evidence for this claim? The archaeological evidence supports the claim that they did. And I’m sure there’s plenty of non archeaological evidence that also supports that. You have nothing by contrast.. only lots of question marks.
“The church that Paul founded at Corinth was one of his most successful. And yet they were in a large city surrounded by immorality and idol worship. One of the problems that plagued the church was how to relate to the pagan idol worshippers who surrounded them. (Many of the church members had become followers of Christ out of such a background.) For example, was it alright for them to share a meal with the pagans? Often, the meat involved in the meal would have been sacrificed to idols first. So did sharing a meal amount to taking part in idol-worship? They wrote to ask Paul, and he replied in his first letter to the Corinthians, chapter 8 verses 1-13.
Archaeologists have discovered dining rooms in the temples of Asclepius and Demeter at Corinth. They have also found an inscription identifying the local meat market. (See 1 Corinthians chapter 10 verses 25-29).
Yet again, archaeology provides a wealth of background confirmation of the historical accuracy of the Bible’s record.”
There was plenty more examples on that site Nan.. is this all you could come up with??
Okay I’m not disputing your evidence that meat was sacrificed to idols in temples and that the meat was sold at a local meat market. I didn’t think that was in dispute. What is this evidence of with regards to Jesus or the Bible? I’ve already conceded that there are historical places and people in the Bible. Much like A Tale of Two Cities or The Divinci Code or any other work of fiction. They contain historical places and perhaps even remark on actual historical events yet they are still works of fiction.
Again, Kathy, the evidence supports what is written in secular and historical accounts of Greeks and Romans and their gods. What evidence is in that which supports Christianity?
“Kathy, either the earth has been around for millions of years or it hasn’t. Which do you believe?”
I told you, I don’t necessarily believe that the earth is only 6000 years old.
At this point you either have to deny observable science and geometry used to calculate astronomical distances or you have to deny that the bible is to be taken literally.
I was going to rewrite the origin of Yahweh comment, but looking back at it, it really isn’t that long. Here is the summary: Yahweh is one of the sons of the Canaanite’s chief god El Elyon. That’s the claim. For the evidence, read the passage I posted from Deuteronomy carefully and you’ll understand why scholars have concluded that it is a valid theory. It demonstrates one way that the Hebrews adopted and modified ideas from other groups.”
Here is the NIV translation..
”
8
When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance,
when he divided all mankind,
he set up boundaries for the peoples
according to the number of the sons of Israel.[b]
9
For the Lord’s portion is his people,
Jacob his allotted inheritance
I trust it more than I trust your sources/ claims.. that’s why I’ve asked for specifics..
Where did you get your translation from? Please cite it.
Are you claiming that in Paul’s time, there weren’t pagans sacrificing to idols? What is your evidence for this claim?
Did I make that claim? No I didn’t. What I said was the archaeological evidence presented on the website you cited does not have anything to do with meat being offered to idols. It talks about dining rooms in a temple. Unless you there to view what they were eating, then you cannot say it is direct evidence of anything except there was a dining room in a temple.
As per your usual pattern, you’re avoiding the true issue and coming up with general statements (e.g., The archaeological evidence supports the claim that they did.) that are not based on fact, but are merely your form of rebuttal.
And I’m sure there’s plenty of non archeaological evidence that also supports that. You are SURE? Pray tell, what makes you so sure?
Yes, Kathy, I did look at several other pages on this website. On one, I found this statement, which I thought was quite revealing: “Archaeology can throw new light on the Bible story, even when it does not directly ‘prove’ it to be true.” Hmmmmm.
” What is this evidence of with regards to Jesus or the Bible? I’ve already conceded that there are historical places and people in the Bible. Much like A Tale of Two Cities or The Divinci Code or any other work of fiction. They contain historical places and perhaps even remark on actual historical events yet they are still works of fiction.”
Ruth, again, no one is claiming this is “proof” of anything.. the claim is that it is evidence that supports the truth of the Bible.
You compare this to the Tale of two cities etc.. but these are admitted fiction.. no one is claiming that fiction doesn’t contain real places etc. These are comparable examples because of this.
And as for those other examples of non fiction where the evidence is similar.. that’s fine.. it is at THIS point where you weight the evidence… the OVERALL evidence in deciding it’s truth.
Was there any evidence to disprove those other claims? You and others continue to ignore the lack of this evidence for the Bible. And yes, you may find “evidence” that argues against the truth of the Bible.. fine again, and again, it’s at that point where you weight the evidence.
But as I’ve pointed out and no one has shown otherwise, there is NO archaeological evidence that DISPROVES the Bible.. that itself is a form of evidence.. that again, should be weighed.
To further elaborate Ruth, the evidence of pagan sacrifices of meat during Paul’s time helps to validate the truth of what is written.. and which also helps to validate the Bible. It’s supportive evidence. I don’t know how else to explain it.
HA! The reasoning is that the evidence presented on that website you posted is not representative of anything except there were dining rooms in a temple. The logic is that the website’s archaeological evidence proves nothing.
If you would, just for a moment, open your mind beyond your embedded beliefs (put there by your church and/or pastor), you would see that reason and logic were presented. You just chose to ignore them … as you do with every other piece of information that has been offered on this blog.
“HA! The reasoning is that the evidence presented on that website you posted is not representative of anything except there were dining rooms in a temple. The logic is that the website’s archaeological evidence proves nothing. ”
Nan, you’re being ridiculous.. did you notice that Ruth DOES see it as evidence?
Maybe, just maybe you aren’t applying the proper reasoning to your thinking.
And again, please look up the def. of evidence.. I’m not going to post it myself, it obviously
does no good.
I told you, I don’t necessarily believe that the earth is only 6000 years old.
No you didn’t. You said “Not all Christians agree that the Earth is only 6000 years old.” Now you’re saying what you “don’t necessarily believe”. What do you believe?
At this point you either have to deny observable science and geometry used to calculate astronomical distances or you have to deny that the bible is to be taken literally.
No response.
Here is the NIV translation.. […] I trust it more than I trust your sources/ claims.. that’s why I’ve asked for specifics.. Where did you get your translation from? Please cite it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elyon
From the Wikipedia Elyon page you linked to:
Many Septuagint manuscripts have in place of “sons of Israel”, angelōn theou ‘angels of God’ and a few have huiōn theou ‘sons of God’. The Dead Sea Scrolls fragment 4QDeutj reads bny ’lwhm ‘sons of God’, ‘sons of the gods’. The NRSV translates this as “he fixed the boundaries according to the number of the gods” […] This passage appears to identify ʿElyōn with Elohim, but not necessarily with Yahweh. It can be read to mean that ʿElyōn separated mankind into 70 nations according to his 70 sons (the 70 sons of Ēl being mentioned in the Ugaritic texts), each of these sons to be the tutelary god over one of the 70 nations, one of them being the god of Israel, Yahweh. Alternatively, it may mean that ʿElyōn, having given the other nations to his sons, now takes Israel for himself under his name of God. Both interpretations have supporters.
The translation I gave is based on the Dead Sea Scrolls which says “sons of God” or “sons of the gods”. The DSS is the oldest source available for the Old Testament. From younger sources we get “angels” – from the LXX (Septuagint) and “son’s of israel” – from the MT (Masoretic Text).
Why do these changes exist? It is strong evidence that the later versions were changed to reflect a more monotheistic culture, while the earlier version reflects polytheistic origins.
The origin of Yahweh as I’ve presented it is one theory among many. So while some if it is speculation there are still some facts here that cannot be dismissed: Changes occurred in the translations of the verse to “cover up” polytheistic origins. Again, this song of Moses from Deut. along with the song of Miriam from Exodus are considered by scholars to be among the oldest portions of the hebrew bible.
Finding Truth 
Nan, I hope you’re not holding your breath on that request! Just sayin’. .
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Nope. I know it will never happen. I just felt it needed to be said. Many others on this blog have said essentially the same thing about just about every topic that she refutes and nothing has happened yet.
She says she wants a “condensed and precise claim/ argument,” yet she refuses to provide the same.
As you said … the merry-go-round goes round and round.
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“What in the world does a dining room or an inscription have to do with meat being offered to idols? This is supposed to be proof???”
Um.. dining rooms in a temple?? No one is claiming it’s proof, but it is compelling evidence.
“Further, most of what is said related to archaeological discoveries on these sites is carefully selected to “prove” certain bible passages or scriptures.”
Exactly. They are selected because they support parts of the Bible.. are they supposed to select random evidence that doesn’t support the Bible? Or are you claiming that other evidence disproves the Bible? If so, what is it??
“If you’re going to use archaeological evidence to prove what you believe to be true about your faith, you need to examine all the archaeological evidence. This would mean extensive research of the places, events, and people of biblical times. Do that and then come back with your evidence and I think you will find people willing to discuss what you have uncovered.”
Who’s not examining all the evidence? Can you post some examples of this??
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Compelling evidence of what??? That people ate? That they may have eaten together in a dining room? In the temple? C’mon, Kathy. You’re grasping at straws. It has NOTHING to do with meat being offered to idols and has nothing to do with supporting the referenced scriptures.
… are they supposed to select random evidence that doesn’t support the Bible? That’s a really stupid question and a very poor rebuttal.
Who’s not examining all the evidence? I claim that YOU are not examining all the evidence. If you feel this is incorrect, then YOU post examples of the evidence (and the sources) that you have examined and we’ll go from there.
Hint: Go back and look at the numerous examples of evidence and sources that Arch and others have posted to get an idea of what it means to do research outside the bible-based, Christian websites.
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Kathy, this is why everyone gives up on you. Perhaps that is your goal. You want to run and gun and just mock us without engaging. You dismissed my first two reasons and then did not respond to anything else I said about them. If you don’t want to take the time to read and respond I’m not sure why you’re here.
I was going to rewrite the origin of Yahweh comment, but looking back at it, it really isn’t that long. Here is the summary: Yahweh is one of the sons of the Canaanite’s chief god El Elyon. That’s the claim. For the evidence, read the passage I posted from Deuteronomy carefully and you’ll understand why scholars have concluded that it is a valid theory. It demonstrates one way that the Hebrews adopted and modified ideas from other groups.
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“It demonstrates one way that the Hebrews adopted and modified ideas from other groups.”
Indeed. Same with Jesus — adopted and modified ideas and characteristics from other groups / mythological gods.
Nan,
“Compelling evidence of what??? That people ate? That they may have eaten together in a dining room? In the temple? C’mon, Kathy. You’re grasping at straws. It has NOTHING to do with meat being offered to idols and has nothing to do with supporting the referenced scriptures. ”
Are you claiming that in Paul’s time, there weren’t pagans sacrificing to idols? What is your evidence for this claim? The archaeological evidence supports the claim that they did. And I’m sure there’s plenty of non archeaological evidence that also supports that. You have nothing by contrast.. only lots of question marks.
“The church that Paul founded at Corinth was one of his most successful. And yet they were in a large city surrounded by immorality and idol worship. One of the problems that plagued the church was how to relate to the pagan idol worshippers who surrounded them. (Many of the church members had become followers of Christ out of such a background.) For example, was it alright for them to share a meal with the pagans? Often, the meat involved in the meal would have been sacrificed to idols first. So did sharing a meal amount to taking part in idol-worship? They wrote to ask Paul, and he replied in his first letter to the Corinthians, chapter 8 verses 1-13.
Archaeologists have discovered dining rooms in the temples of Asclepius and Demeter at Corinth. They have also found an inscription identifying the local meat market. (See 1 Corinthians chapter 10 verses 25-29).
Yet again, archaeology provides a wealth of background confirmation of the historical accuracy of the Bible’s record.”
There was plenty more examples on that site Nan.. is this all you could come up with??
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Kathy,
Okay I’m not disputing your evidence that meat was sacrificed to idols in temples and that the meat was sold at a local meat market. I didn’t think that was in dispute. What is this evidence of with regards to Jesus or the Bible? I’ve already conceded that there are historical places and people in the Bible. Much like A Tale of Two Cities or The Divinci Code or any other work of fiction. They contain historical places and perhaps even remark on actual historical events yet they are still works of fiction.
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Again, Kathy, the evidence supports what is written in secular and historical accounts of Greeks and Romans and their gods. What evidence is in that which supports Christianity?
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“Kathy, either the earth has been around for millions of years or it hasn’t. Which do you believe?”
I told you, I don’t necessarily believe that the earth is only 6000 years old.
At this point you either have to deny observable science and geometry used to calculate astronomical distances or you have to deny that the bible is to be taken literally.
I was going to rewrite the origin of Yahweh comment, but looking back at it, it really isn’t that long. Here is the summary: Yahweh is one of the sons of the Canaanite’s chief god El Elyon. That’s the claim. For the evidence, read the passage I posted from Deuteronomy carefully and you’ll understand why scholars have concluded that it is a valid theory. It demonstrates one way that the Hebrews adopted and modified ideas from other groups.”
Here is the NIV translation..
”
8
When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance,
when he divided all mankind,
he set up boundaries for the peoples
according to the number of the sons of Israel.[b]
9
For the Lord’s portion is his people,
Jacob his allotted inheritance
I trust it more than I trust your sources/ claims.. that’s why I’ve asked for specifics..
Where did you get your translation from? Please cite it.
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Dave..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elyon
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Are you claiming that in Paul’s time, there weren’t pagans sacrificing to idols? What is your evidence for this claim?
Did I make that claim? No I didn’t. What I said was the archaeological evidence presented on the website you cited does not have anything to do with meat being offered to idols. It talks about dining rooms in a temple. Unless you there to view what they were eating, then you cannot say it is direct evidence of anything except there was a dining room in a temple.
As per your usual pattern, you’re avoiding the true issue and coming up with general statements (e.g., The archaeological evidence supports the claim that they did.) that are not based on fact, but are merely your form of rebuttal.
And I’m sure there’s plenty of non archeaological evidence that also supports that. You are SURE? Pray tell, what makes you so sure?
Yes, Kathy, I did look at several other pages on this website. On one, I found this statement, which I thought was quite revealing: “Archaeology can throw new light on the Bible story, even when it does not directly ‘prove’ it to be true.” Hmmmmm.
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Nan, all I can do is present evidence.. I can’t make you apply reason and logic.
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” What is this evidence of with regards to Jesus or the Bible? I’ve already conceded that there are historical places and people in the Bible. Much like A Tale of Two Cities or The Divinci Code or any other work of fiction. They contain historical places and perhaps even remark on actual historical events yet they are still works of fiction.”
Ruth, again, no one is claiming this is “proof” of anything.. the claim is that it is evidence that supports the truth of the Bible.
You compare this to the Tale of two cities etc.. but these are admitted fiction.. no one is claiming that fiction doesn’t contain real places etc. These are comparable examples because of this.
And as for those other examples of non fiction where the evidence is similar.. that’s fine.. it is at THIS point where you weight the evidence… the OVERALL evidence in deciding it’s truth.
Was there any evidence to disprove those other claims? You and others continue to ignore the lack of this evidence for the Bible. And yes, you may find “evidence” that argues against the truth of the Bible.. fine again, and again, it’s at that point where you weight the evidence.
But as I’ve pointed out and no one has shown otherwise, there is NO archaeological evidence that DISPROVES the Bible.. that itself is a form of evidence.. that again, should be weighed.
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correction.. “These are comparable examples because of this.” s/b these AREN’T…
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To further elaborate Ruth, the evidence of pagan sacrifices of meat during Paul’s time helps to validate the truth of what is written.. and which also helps to validate the Bible. It’s supportive evidence. I don’t know how else to explain it.
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I can’t make you apply reason and logic.
HA! The reasoning is that the evidence presented on that website you posted is not representative of anything except there were dining rooms in a temple. The logic is that the website’s archaeological evidence proves nothing.
If you would, just for a moment, open your mind beyond your embedded beliefs (put there by your church and/or pastor), you would see that reason and logic were presented. You just chose to ignore them … as you do with every other piece of information that has been offered on this blog.
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Neuro, very interesting video! Lots of ‘food for thought’ – no doubt it gave Kathy lots to ‘chew’ on . . .
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Thanks for watching, Carmen.
Kathy is a pagan worshiper. How “original”. lol
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“HA! The reasoning is that the evidence presented on that website you posted is not representative of anything except there were dining rooms in a temple. The logic is that the website’s archaeological evidence proves nothing. ”
Nan, you’re being ridiculous.. did you notice that Ruth DOES see it as evidence?
Maybe, just maybe you aren’t applying the proper reasoning to your thinking.
And again, please look up the def. of evidence.. I’m not going to post it myself, it obviously
does no good.
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Didn’t watch it. Neuro doesn’t have a good track record of posting objective material.
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“Didn’t watch it” – well, now isn’t THAT the surprise of the night! 🙂
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No you didn’t. You said “Not all Christians agree that the Earth is only 6000 years old.” Now you’re saying what you “don’t necessarily believe”. What do you believe?
No response.
From the Wikipedia Elyon page you linked to:
The translation I gave is based on the Dead Sea Scrolls which says “sons of God” or “sons of the gods”. The DSS is the oldest source available for the Old Testament. From younger sources we get “angels” – from the LXX (Septuagint) and “son’s of israel” – from the MT (Masoretic Text).
Why do these changes exist? It is strong evidence that the later versions were changed to reflect a more monotheistic culture, while the earlier version reflects polytheistic origins.
The origin of Yahweh as I’ve presented it is one theory among many. So while some if it is speculation there are still some facts here that cannot be dismissed: Changes occurred in the translations of the verse to “cover up” polytheistic origins. Again, this song of Moses from Deut. along with the song of Miriam from Exodus are considered by scholars to be among the oldest portions of the hebrew bible.
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@ Carmen
Giggles. She worships on what day?
She’s a pagan worshiper through and through.
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