Ruth (and Kathy), in and of itself, the presence of dining rooms in the temples has no particular significance (except perhaps that people ate together). The inscription identifying a local meat market indicates (doesn’t prove) that such a market may have existed.
Neither of these are evidence that meat was offered to idols. It’s all conjecture (which, by the way, pretty much sums up most “evidence” that is presented about the bible).
To my way of thinking, the only archaeological evidence that would give any kind of credence to Paul’s words would have to be the remains of an idol in the dining room …
Kathy, you cannot stretch your suppositions to make them become truth.
“I’m not saying that idol worship wasn’t happening in Corinth at the time of Paul. You are entirely missing my point.”
No, you are sorely missing the point Ruth…. I never said or implied that you said idol worship wasn’t happening in Paul’s time. I’m saying that you refuse to acknowledge that archaeological evidence of it happening during Paul’s time supports the validity of Paul and his writings.
You conveniently avoided a key point I made.. if it was discovered that there were NO dining rooms in the temples that would be supportive evidence that Paul was lying or a fictitious person. It most definitely WOULD be evidence towards that claim. And again, since you refuse to acknowledge the reverse, that evidence of dining rooms in the temples supports the truth of Paul, it shows that you lack objectivity.
“Are these archaeological finds evidence that what the Greeks believed was truth? If not, why not? Why would it be evidence for the truth of the Bible, but not the truth of Greek Gods?”
I can’t believe I have to explain this over and over.. why would evidence of pagan worship support the truth of their gods? Please explain this to me..
No, Kathy. The lack of dining rooms in the temples would support nothing. It would not have anything to do with Paul’s existence or be an indication that he was lying. Why? Because the existence of these things has no particular meaning. Period. They just were. The fact that they were found in/near Corinth means people lived there. Nothing more.
why would evidence of pagan worship support the truth of their gods? Please explain this to me..
Why would evidence of Yahweh worship support the truth of Yahweh?
You conveniently avoided a key point I made.. if it was discovered that there were NO dining rooms in the temples that would be supportive evidence that Paul was lying or a fictitious person. It most definitely WOULD be evidence towards that claim. And again, since you refuse to acknowledge the reverse, that evidence of dining rooms in the temples supports the truth of Paul, it shows that you lack objectivity.
I didn’t avoid anything. Most likely you are right. If these did not exist that is what would be said and the evidence would support that. My broader point is that the Romans and Greeks, themselves, acknowledge that sacrifice and feasts were part of their worship of their gods. So it is no surprise that, if it was happening, it was happening in Corinth at the time of Paul. This still does not provide evidence that what he wrote about Jesus was true, only that pagan worship was happening. Nothing about finding dining rooms in temples supports Paul’s assertions about the deity of his choice, just like nothing in them supports the truth of pagan gods. That there was pagan worship and sacrifice proves nothing about the validity of Paul’s claims. I can’t believe that you have the good sense to see that when it comes to the pagan gods but not Jesus.
Ruth (and Kathy), in and of itself, the presence of dining rooms in the temples has no particular significance (except perhaps that people ate together). The inscription identifying a local meat market indicates (doesn’t prove) that such a market may have existed.
I agree, in principle, about this. I don’t see what the existence of dining rooms in the temples has to do with the truth of Christianity. As far as identifying a local meat market, so? Does the inscription say that sacrificial meat was sold there? I’m sure there was a meat market in town. That doesn’t mean the meat sacrificed to idols was sold there.
“No, Kathy. The lack of dining rooms in the temples would support nothing. It would not have anything to do with Paul’s existence or be an indication that he was lying. Why? Because the existence of these things has no particular meaning. Period. They just were. The fact that they were found in/near Corinth means people lived there. Nothing more.”
I was imagining yesterday, this scene in a court room.. Nan is the defense attorney and is arguing that the defendant being witnessed as walking out of the house where a person was murdered is NOT evidence that he was the murderer! not at all!.. it’s *only* evidence that he walked out of the house. Nan, you just don’t get it.
Let’s just say that Paul was right about the sacrificed meat. It would be an acknowledgement that he was familiar with pagan worship, which being in a Greek city would be very likely. How does this validate anything else that he wrote?
No, Kathy, YOU don’t get it. You’re comparing apples to oranges. But that’s OK. I think most of us have long ago figured out that the blinders you wear prevent you from seeing/understanding anything that doesn’t fit what you believe to be “truth.”
“It does look like Genesis 1 and 2 were written by two different authors.”
As I’ve often stated, Gen 2 was written in the Southern Kingdom of Judea, at Jerusalem, by priests known as the Yahwist (J) Source, about 950 BCE, and Gen 1 was written by the “Priestly (P) Source,” in captivity in Babylon, around 500+ BCE.
The very fact that Kathy appears to be back after an absence of quite some time, implies to me that she has been thrown off of wherever she’s been, and that this is the only place she is free to rant at will, without repercussions.
Let’s just say that Paul was right about the sacrificed meat. It would be an acknowledgement that he was familiar with pagan worship, which being in a Greek city would be very likely. How does this validate anything else that he wrote?”
So, let’s get that part cleared up… I never claimed what you just said I claimed.. that evidence of worship proves God’s existence… I’ve never made that claim because it doesn’t make any sense. I think this is just more evidence that you lack objectivity on this issue.
“Simply put, Kathy, every time you say that the Bible is evidence for Yahweh. The Bible is merely evidence that people worshiped Yahweh.”
And yet you STILL try.. I say that the Bible is evidence of God’s existence because of what is written inside.. things that can be corroborated.. just like the man walking out of the house being corroborative evidence of the charge against him.
It’s evidence Ruth.. however powerful you deem it to be, it’s none the less, actual EVIDENCE. That you can’t acknowledge this, again, proves your lack of objectivity.
It’s evidence Ruth.. however powerful you deem it to be, it’s none the less, actual EVIDENCE. That you can’t acknowledge this, again, proves your lack of objectivity.
Time and again you put words into our mouths. I never said it wasn’t evidence. You and I disagree on what it is evidence for. Of course the Bible is evidence. It’s evidence that Jewish people worshiped a deity they called Yahweh. It’s evidence that people believed that Jesus was the Messiah. It’s evidence, alright. It just isn’t particularly good evidence that Yahweh was/is a God nor that Jesus is the Messiah.
What I am trying my best to explain to you, Kathy, is that the Bible – in my estimation – is nothing more than evidence of Yahweh worship. It is not evidence of Yahweh’s existence. So when you claim that the Bible is evidence of Yahweh’s existence you are claiming that evidence of Yahweh worship is, in fact, evidence of Yahweh.
Ruth, you are failing badly in defending your claim.. at least you FINALLY acknowledged that it IS evidence.
” It just isn’t particularly good evidence that Yahweh was/is a God nor that Jesus is the Messiah.”
BUT.. then, you reverse that in your very next comment!
“What I am trying my best to explain to you, Kathy, is that the Bible – in my estimation – is nothing more than evidence of Yahweh worship. It is not evidence of Yahweh’s existence. So when you claim that the Bible is evidence of Yahweh’s existence you are claiming that evidence of Yahweh worship is, in fact, evidence of Yahweh.”
Ruth, you are utterly blind to your own lack of objectivity. This should be very concerning to you.. because it likely means that did not apply honest objectivity when you decided to abandon God. I KNOW that you are not applying honest objectivity in arguing this subject presently.
Finding Truth 
Ruth (and Kathy), in and of itself, the presence of dining rooms in the temples has no particular significance (except perhaps that people ate together). The inscription identifying a local meat market indicates (doesn’t prove) that such a market may have existed.
Neither of these are evidence that meat was offered to idols. It’s all conjecture (which, by the way, pretty much sums up most “evidence” that is presented about the bible).
To my way of thinking, the only archaeological evidence that would give any kind of credence to Paul’s words would have to be the remains of an idol in the dining room …
Kathy, you cannot stretch your suppositions to make them become truth.
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“I’m not saying that idol worship wasn’t happening in Corinth at the time of Paul. You are entirely missing my point.”
No, you are sorely missing the point Ruth…. I never said or implied that you said idol worship wasn’t happening in Paul’s time. I’m saying that you refuse to acknowledge that archaeological evidence of it happening during Paul’s time supports the validity of Paul and his writings.
You conveniently avoided a key point I made.. if it was discovered that there were NO dining rooms in the temples that would be supportive evidence that Paul was lying or a fictitious person. It most definitely WOULD be evidence towards that claim. And again, since you refuse to acknowledge the reverse, that evidence of dining rooms in the temples supports the truth of Paul, it shows that you lack objectivity.
“Are these archaeological finds evidence that what the Greeks believed was truth? If not, why not? Why would it be evidence for the truth of the Bible, but not the truth of Greek Gods?”
I can’t believe I have to explain this over and over.. why would evidence of pagan worship support the truth of their gods? Please explain this to me..
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No, Kathy. The lack of dining rooms in the temples would support nothing. It would not have anything to do with Paul’s existence or be an indication that he was lying. Why? Because the existence of these things has no particular meaning. Period. They just were. The fact that they were found in/near Corinth means people lived there. Nothing more.
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why would evidence of pagan worship support the truth of their gods? Please explain this to me..
Why would evidence of Yahweh worship support the truth of Yahweh?
You conveniently avoided a key point I made.. if it was discovered that there were NO dining rooms in the temples that would be supportive evidence that Paul was lying or a fictitious person. It most definitely WOULD be evidence towards that claim. And again, since you refuse to acknowledge the reverse, that evidence of dining rooms in the temples supports the truth of Paul, it shows that you lack objectivity.
I didn’t avoid anything. Most likely you are right. If these did not exist that is what would be said and the evidence would support that. My broader point is that the Romans and Greeks, themselves, acknowledge that sacrifice and feasts were part of their worship of their gods. So it is no surprise that, if it was happening, it was happening in Corinth at the time of Paul. This still does not provide evidence that what he wrote about Jesus was true, only that pagan worship was happening. Nothing about finding dining rooms in temples supports Paul’s assertions about the deity of his choice, just like nothing in them supports the truth of pagan gods. That there was pagan worship and sacrifice proves nothing about the validity of Paul’s claims. I can’t believe that you have the good sense to see that when it comes to the pagan gods but not Jesus.
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Kathy, you can’t even begin to tell us what that means!
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“Why would evidence of Yahweh worship support the truth of Yahweh? ”
Where did I make that claim Ruth??
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Ruth (and Kathy), in and of itself, the presence of dining rooms in the temples has no particular significance (except perhaps that people ate together). The inscription identifying a local meat market indicates (doesn’t prove) that such a market may have existed.
I agree, in principle, about this. I don’t see what the existence of dining rooms in the temples has to do with the truth of Christianity. As far as identifying a local meat market, so? Does the inscription say that sacrificial meat was sold there? I’m sure there was a meat market in town. That doesn’t mean the meat sacrificed to idols was sold there.
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@Ruth … EXACTLY!!
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“No, Kathy. The lack of dining rooms in the temples would support nothing. It would not have anything to do with Paul’s existence or be an indication that he was lying. Why? Because the existence of these things has no particular meaning. Period. They just were. The fact that they were found in/near Corinth means people lived there. Nothing more.”
I was imagining yesterday, this scene in a court room.. Nan is the defense attorney and is arguing that the defendant being witnessed as walking out of the house where a person was murdered is NOT evidence that he was the murderer! not at all!.. it’s *only* evidence that he walked out of the house. Nan, you just don’t get it.
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Where did I make that claim Ruth??
Let’s just say that Paul was right about the sacrificed meat. It would be an acknowledgement that he was familiar with pagan worship, which being in a Greek city would be very likely. How does this validate anything else that he wrote?
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No, Kathy, YOU don’t get it. You’re comparing apples to oranges. But that’s OK. I think most of us have long ago figured out that the blinders you wear prevent you from seeing/understanding anything that doesn’t fit what you believe to be “truth.”
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“Why would evidence of Yahweh worship support the truth of Yahweh? ”
Where did I make that claim Ruth??
Simply put, Kathy, every time you say that the Bible is evidence for Yahweh. The Bible is merely evidence that people worshiped Yahweh.
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“It does look like Genesis 1 and 2 were written by two different authors.”
As I’ve often stated, Gen 2 was written in the Southern Kingdom of Judea, at Jerusalem, by priests known as the Yahwist (J) Source, about 950 BCE, and Gen 1 was written by the “Priestly (P) Source,” in captivity in Babylon, around 500+ BCE.
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Hey Arch — are you by any chance trying to redirect this conversation? If so, can’t say I blame you. 😉
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The very fact that Kathy appears to be back after an absence of quite some time, implies to me that she has been thrown off of wherever she’s been, and that this is the only place she is free to rant at will, without repercussions.
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“Where did I make that claim Ruth??
Let’s just say that Paul was right about the sacrificed meat. It would be an acknowledgement that he was familiar with pagan worship, which being in a Greek city would be very likely. How does this validate anything else that he wrote?”
So, let’s get that part cleared up… I never claimed what you just said I claimed.. that evidence of worship proves God’s existence… I’ve never made that claim because it doesn’t make any sense. I think this is just more evidence that you lack objectivity on this issue.
“Simply put, Kathy, every time you say that the Bible is evidence for Yahweh. The Bible is merely evidence that people worshiped Yahweh.”
And yet you STILL try.. I say that the Bible is evidence of God’s existence because of what is written inside.. things that can be corroborated.. just like the man walking out of the house being corroborative evidence of the charge against him.
It’s evidence Ruth.. however powerful you deem it to be, it’s none the less, actual EVIDENCE. That you can’t acknowledge this, again, proves your lack of objectivity.
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“why would evidence of pagan worship support the truth of their gods?”
“Pagans” don’t consider themselves pagans, Kathyh – they consider everyone who doesn’t worship THEIR gods (like you) pagans.
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“Hey Arch — are you by any chance trying to redirect this conversation? If so, can’t say I blame you.
‘Nope – just late to the party after a horrendous day yesterday.
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Awwwww. 😦
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“I’ve never made that claim because it doesn’t make any sense.” – Yes, Kathy, but we’ve come to expect that from you.
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It’s evidence Ruth.. however powerful you deem it to be, it’s none the less, actual EVIDENCE. That you can’t acknowledge this, again, proves your lack of objectivity.
Time and again you put words into our mouths. I never said it wasn’t evidence. You and I disagree on what it is evidence for. Of course the Bible is evidence. It’s evidence that Jewish people worshiped a deity they called Yahweh. It’s evidence that people believed that Jesus was the Messiah. It’s evidence, alright. It just isn’t particularly good evidence that Yahweh was/is a God nor that Jesus is the Messiah.
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What I am trying my best to explain to you, Kathy, is that the Bible – in my estimation – is nothing more than evidence of Yahweh worship. It is not evidence of Yahweh’s existence. So when you claim that the Bible is evidence of Yahweh’s existence you are claiming that evidence of Yahweh worship is, in fact, evidence of Yahweh.
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Kathy, you still haven’t answered my question. What is the first thing I should do if/when I become convinced you are right?
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Ruth, you are failing badly in defending your claim.. at least you FINALLY acknowledged that it IS evidence.
” It just isn’t particularly good evidence that Yahweh was/is a God nor that Jesus is the Messiah.”
BUT.. then, you reverse that in your very next comment!
“What I am trying my best to explain to you, Kathy, is that the Bible – in my estimation – is nothing more than evidence of Yahweh worship. It is not evidence of Yahweh’s existence. So when you claim that the Bible is evidence of Yahweh’s existence you are claiming that evidence of Yahweh worship is, in fact, evidence of Yahweh.”
Ruth, you are utterly blind to your own lack of objectivity. This should be very concerning to you.. because it likely means that did not apply honest objectivity when you decided to abandon God. I KNOW that you are not applying honest objectivity in arguing this subject presently.
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Gliese,
Ask for God’s forgiveness and follow Him.
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