So, I’m supposed to pray, I assume, and ask for forgiveness. What am I supposed to ask forgiveness for? I understand I can say the words even if I don’t believe it, right? How do I operationalize “follow Him”? Specifically, what do I do after I pray for forgiveness? Do I start to go to church? Which one?
Ironically, my friend tells me I am the best Christian he knows. He means, of course, that I am a good and kind person. I had a conversation with a woman once, who told me that not only did I have to believe in God and Jesus, but it was not good enough for her for me to go to the Unitarian Universalist church. I thought that she would have though it was a success to get me into any church at all.
I have read the Bible multiple times. I read it the first time out of curiosity. I wanted to see how it would be helpful to me. The next time I read it, I was trying to better understand Christians and Christianity. Having been raised in an atheist household, it is foreign to me. When I read it most recently, it affected my mental well-being negatively. It made me feel sick. Am I supposed to force myself to study this book. Do I go to a study group, talk to a pastor?
When do I do the same thing for Islam, Hinduism, and Buddhism? Why should they not be given equal time? How would I tell my kids that I am now going to believe in something I have denounced their entire lives, without giving at least giving the other major religions a try?
I know I can be sarcastic, but these are some of the legitimate obstacles that would be in the way of me becoming a Christian. This is all hypothetical, mind you, but still valid questions I would have.
Yeah, Ruth – it likely means that (you) did not apply honest objectivity when you decided to abandon an invisible man who lives in the sky that no one has ever seen and for whom there is no evidence! SHAME on you! Shame, shame, shame –!
“Right, just like the defendant walking out of the house is just evidence of him walking out of the house.” – exactly like, that proves only opportunity, certainly not motive nor anything else connected with a crime. Where do you get your analogies, a subscription to “Analogies ‘R’ Us”?
“When I read it most recently, it affected my mental well-being negatively. It made me feel sick.”
As it should. Your instincts were engaged.
gliese, I agree that it can affect your mental well being when you’ve not been exposed to it and desensitized on the level that many have been. Initially, I didn’t study scripture. But the bible stated that I should study to show myself approved unto god, so I took that very seriously when I became an adult.
Initially, I pretty much studied the Gospels. But as I progressed, I started to question some many things in the bible that were disturbing to me. Pastors played a major role in further raising the red flags. They justified the antisocial behavior in the bible calling it righteous indignation. The more I studied, especially the OT and Revelations, the more I questioned the character of the god I was believing in and devoted to. It literally got to a point that I was physically feeling ill when I read the bible. My instincts and neural circuity associated with critical assessment were re-activating.
“Here we are in the 21st century and a large percentage of humans still worship the god of Abraham, an inspiration and example to many Christians. A man supposedly commanded by god to kill his own son, to pay back a debt to the creator of the universe and to prove his love for that god.
What must these religions do to the minds of believers to even allow them to describe the story of Abraham as beautiful? Which of us would leave Abraham in charge of our children? Imagine how scripture and theology must pervert the pathways and processes of the human mind, and perhaps the very psyche of our species.
It all seems so primitive and that’s being kind. I’m not saying that there isn’t a creator. I just can’t believe a mind that would make this universe would share exactly the same insecurities; the same need for respect and recognition; the same demand for loyalty, submission and obedience and the same murderous rage as the worst of human kings and your average alpha male chimpanzee.
It should be noted (but carefully looked for, as it’s not on a billboard anywhere) that Abraham and Sarah never lived together again after Abe’s little road trip with Isaac – no wonder he “rose himself up” so early in the morning —
“I just can’t believe a mind that would make this universe would share exactly the same insecurities; the same need for respect and recognition; the same demand for loyalty, submission and obedience and the same murderous rage as the worst of human kings and your average alpha male chimpanzee.”
“Men rarely (if ever) manage to dream up a god superior to themselves.
Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child.”
— Robert A. Heinlein —
“In our own hearts, we mold the whole world’s hereafters; and in our own hearts we fashion our own gods.”
— Herman Mellville —
It must be horrifying to have had that faith, only to read the Bible and find out the deity you’ve believed in and trusted is psychopathic. It was bad enough for me.
I’ve been told by many Christians that I should pray for faith, which is a bit of an oxymoron. What they do not seem to understand is I am suspicious of faith itself. Warping my psyche to believe in something without evidence (the definition of faith), is not going to happen on a whim.
Also, I was wondering, what was the reason for changing from polytheism to monotheism? especially in such a dishonest manor? What was so wrong with polytheism that they felt it had to be changed? It sounds like someone “invented” monotheism, according to your theory and then the lies kept going from there.
As I explained to Nate, the claim that they weren’t deliberately lying doesn’t work.. scripture is in a factual format.. no implications of speculation and no oral beliefs are referenced/ mentioned.
What you’re claiming can be nothing but intentional deceit. And that doesn’t work. People won’t give their lives for flimsy speculation. They won’t create a fiction and then die for it.
I do care. This was something important to me when I was a Christian. I can’t make sense of Genesis with a universe that is so old. God made it, made adam and eve, and then the genealogies start. If the earth is millions of years old (which you admit is very compelling) then something is not right. You can dismiss it and choose to not care. I choose to count this as one of many reasons to doubt the claim of divine authorship.”
Have you considered that the Adam & Eve and flood stories might be allegorical?
Sorry Dave but it is NOT a fact that the “changes” were to “cover up” polytheistic origins. This is your assumption, based on speculation.. not fact.
“You’re right, I should rephrase. The changes are there, that much is fact. The oldest say “sons of the gods” and the younger say “angels” and “sons of Israel”, this is also fact”.
No, that’s not fact either… they aren’t “changes”.. they are interpretations. The main goal of interpretation is to be as accurate as possible to the original meaning. The meaning that the NIV has is based on the entire context of the Bible.. the other writings/ authors. That would be the most reasonable interpretation.. because context is key to interpretation.
“What you make of these facts is your choice. I think it makes sense and is very reasonable to conclude that scribes who copied these texts made changes when something did not agree with them.”
Just because the DSS are the oldest text we have, that doesn’t make them the “original” text.. it just means it’s the oldest we have possession of.
“Yeah, unfortunately we don’t have any originals for anything in the Bible. We have to make do with what we have and trust in the unknown scribes who made copies of copies. Most find it reasonable to conclude that older copies are more accurate than later copies.”
That’s right, we don’t.. so there is no way of knowing which are the closest to the originals. To make a conclusion that the oldest would be the most accurate is a mistake.. the kind of mistake you trust that all those scientists haven’t made but likely do.. all the time.
“Our Savior giving His life for us should make you feel “sick”? I don’t get it.. can either of you explain this in greater detail?”
That wasn’t the part that made me feel sick. It had more to do with the Old Testament than the New Testament, but Revelations didn’t help. I am not a biblical scholar – I can only tell you how it made me feel to read it. I was not inspired to follow Jesus at all. I felt afraid for mankind, that so many believe it to be divinely inspired and true.
The Bible didn’t sell itself to this outsider. I was trying to be sympathetic to Christians, to understand them better. I am more baffled now than before I read it, more convinced that Christianity is not for me.
“The Bible is merely evidence that people worshiped Yahweh.”
Right, just like the defendant walking out of the house is just evidence of him
walking out of the house.
If someone actually saw Yahweh leave the building the Bible would be equivalent evidence to the defendant walking out of the house. The Bible is oral tradition written down [in many cases] hundreds of years after the tradition began. So none of the people who wrote the scriptures down were even there when these things supposedly happened. Flimsy evidence at best. So it’s not the same. Moreover, if all the evidence is the defendant walking out of the house then it’s really not good evidence that the defendant committed a crime. There isn’t a jury who could convict on that basis alone. And if you would convict on that evidence alone I wouldn’t want you on any jury.
You have repeatedly given five or so “evidences” :
1) martyrs…which there are for most every major religion and many people are clearly willing and sometimes even eager to die for a lie(even if they believe it’s true).
2) our very existence – no one knows so in lieu of that knowledge…God.
3) Miracles – which I’m pretty sure we’ve narrowed down to “our very existence”.
4) Fulfilled prophecy…which are vague and many events in history have been retrofitted to match.
5) 40 authors taking 1500 years to write the bible…which, as I said, only shows that tradition was handed down that people worshiped Yahweh.
Dave gave you 20 yet you call his weak. Any evidence anyone has for or against a god would be circumstantial at best. We are all doing the best we can to be as objective as we can.
Ruth, I’d really like to hear you agree.. the defendant walking out of the house is just evidence of him walking out of the house… right?
Okay. If that’s all the evidence you’ve got, then yeah. How many times has someone been accused of a crime that they did not commit because of rash conclusions such as this?
That’s right, we don’t[have any originals].. so there is no way of knowing which are the closest to the originals.
So, really, you don’t have any way of knowing if the original intent nor message of the Bible is being given in the scriptures we have today. Nor do you have any way of knowing how close the Bible we have today even resembles the original. Yet you are willing to bet it’s accurate and true but only when it suits your purposes and only the interpretation(NIV) that you like the best. Have you studied the manuscripts? Do you know Hebrew? How do you know the NIV is the best interpretation?
“Again, it comes down to WEIGHING the evidence. These exceptions (of reaching) do not outweigh the compelling evidence FOR the Truth of the Bible.”
what evidence is there that the bible is telling the truth about its divine origin?
you keep saying there’s compelling, factual evidence. what and where is it? showing the evidence would be more compelling than saying there is evidence.
We all had a great time thanks, I bought a swag and slept under the stars (and clouds) 🙂
Just in regards to what you wrote:
I hate being betrayed, and the thought that others have also fallen under the spell and may someday experience what so many of us have, is something I think about while having discourse with believers. This kind of betrayal is far worse than any betrayal of trust I’ve experienced in my life. As I’ve mentioned before, deconversion is not for the faint of heart.
I don’t see it like that. I don’t feel betrayed…but then again personally, I still believe in God. I have lots of shortcomings and inconsistencies, but I believe a person can be both reasonable and a believer.
Atheists I do not think have a monopoly on reason and clear thinking.
In response to your verses of multiple “gods”… how do you rectify that with all these verses that clearly state ONE God?
History is always written by the winners. Followers of Yahweh and then monotheism is what became orthodox and that’s what became the theme of the old testament. The same thing happened in the formation of the new testament. Whatever was deemed orthodox was included in the canon, everything else was deemed heretical.
Also, I was wondering, what was the reason for changing from polytheism to monotheism? especially in such a dishonest manor? What was so wrong with polytheism that they felt it had to be changed?
I think at first priests of Yahweh wanted to push the fact that Yahweh was superior to the other gods. They wanted people sacrificing to Yahweh and not to Baal, Asherah or the other gods because there were benefits associated with being a successful priest. You get free room and board and free food not to mention some pretty nice robes. Eventually they pushed the ideology that Yahweh and El were one and the same and that all the other gods were false.
Have you considered that the Adam & Eve and flood stories might be allegorical?
If you mean stories, then yes, that’s exactly what I think they are. They may even be adapted stories, the flood story is very similar to a Sumerian story in the epic of Gilgamesh.
No, that’s not fact either… they aren’t “changes”.. they are interpretations.
Call them what you like. They are different.
The main goal of interpretation is to be as accurate as possible to the original meaning.
We have no way of knowing what was going on in the minds of the Hebrew scribes from 2500+ years ago. You are giving them a lot of trust. Do you give that kind of trust to all men?
That’s right, we don’t..[have the originals] so there is no way of knowing which are the closest to the originals. To make a conclusion that the oldest would be the most accurate is a mistake.
It may or may not be a mistake, but it seems reasonable since things have a habit of changing over time. So less time would equal less change. Nothing is for certain.
Finding Truth 
Ruth:
“The Bible is merely evidence that people worshiped Yahweh.”
Right, just like the defendant walking out of the house is just evidence of him
walking out of the house.
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So, I’m supposed to pray, I assume, and ask for forgiveness. What am I supposed to ask forgiveness for? I understand I can say the words even if I don’t believe it, right? How do I operationalize “follow Him”? Specifically, what do I do after I pray for forgiveness? Do I start to go to church? Which one?
Ironically, my friend tells me I am the best Christian he knows. He means, of course, that I am a good and kind person. I had a conversation with a woman once, who told me that not only did I have to believe in God and Jesus, but it was not good enough for her for me to go to the Unitarian Universalist church. I thought that she would have though it was a success to get me into any church at all.
I have read the Bible multiple times. I read it the first time out of curiosity. I wanted to see how it would be helpful to me. The next time I read it, I was trying to better understand Christians and Christianity. Having been raised in an atheist household, it is foreign to me. When I read it most recently, it affected my mental well-being negatively. It made me feel sick. Am I supposed to force myself to study this book. Do I go to a study group, talk to a pastor?
When do I do the same thing for Islam, Hinduism, and Buddhism? Why should they not be given equal time? How would I tell my kids that I am now going to believe in something I have denounced their entire lives, without giving at least giving the other major religions a try?
I know I can be sarcastic, but these are some of the legitimate obstacles that would be in the way of me becoming a Christian. This is all hypothetical, mind you, but still valid questions I would have.
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Ruth, I’d really like to hear you agree.. the defendant walking out of the house is just evidence of him walking out of the house… right?
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Yeah, Ruth – it likely means that (you) did not apply honest objectivity when you decided to abandon an invisible man who lives in the sky that no one has ever seen and for whom there is no evidence! SHAME on you! Shame, shame, shame –!
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He’s invisible, Kathy – how can she tell which way he’s going?
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“Right, just like the defendant walking out of the house is just evidence of him walking out of the house.” – exactly like, that proves only opportunity, certainly not motive nor anything else connected with a crime. Where do you get your analogies, a subscription to “Analogies ‘R’ Us”?
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“I know I can be sarcastic” – Believe it or not, some say the same thing about me – can you imagine? Go figure —
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“the defendant walking out of the house is just evidence of him walking out of the house… right?” I answered that, Nimrod – learn to read!
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Unbelievable.
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“When I read it most recently, it affected my mental well-being negatively. It made me feel sick.”
As it should. Your instincts were engaged.
gliese, I agree that it can affect your mental well being when you’ve not been exposed to it and desensitized on the level that many have been. Initially, I didn’t study scripture. But the bible stated that I should study to show myself approved unto god, so I took that very seriously when I became an adult.
Initially, I pretty much studied the Gospels. But as I progressed, I started to question
somemany things in the bible that were disturbing to me. Pastors played a major role in further raising the red flags. They justified the antisocial behavior in the bible calling it righteous indignation. The more I studied, especially the OT and Revelations, the more I questioned the character of the god I was believing in and devoted to. It literally got to a point that I was physically feeling ill when I read the bible. My instincts and neural circuity associated with critical assessment were re-activating.Excerpt from Through These Godless Eyes</a
That’s exactly what I had to ask myself.
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Oops, messed up a tag.
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It should be noted (but carefully looked for, as it’s not on a billboard anywhere) that Abraham and Sarah never lived together again after Abe’s little road trip with Isaac – no wonder he “rose himself up” so early in the morning —
“I just can’t believe a mind that would make this universe would share exactly the same insecurities; the same need for respect and recognition; the same demand for loyalty, submission and obedience and the same murderous rage as the worst of human kings and your average alpha male chimpanzee.”
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Neuro.
It must be horrifying to have had that faith, only to read the Bible and find out the deity you’ve believed in and trusted is psychopathic. It was bad enough for me.
I’ve been told by many Christians that I should pray for faith, which is a bit of an oxymoron. What they do not seem to understand is I am suspicious of faith itself. Warping my psyche to believe in something without evidence (the definition of faith), is not going to happen on a whim.
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““When I read it most recently, it affected my mental well-being negatively. It made me feel sick.”
As it should. Your instincts were engaged.”
Our Savior giving His life for us should make you feel “sick”? I don’t get it.. can either of you explain this in greater detail?
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Dave,
In response to your verses of multiple “gods”… how do you rectify that with all these verses that clearly state ONE God?
http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Bible-Verses-About-Monotheism/
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correction.. I meant “reconcile”.. not “rectify”.
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Also, I was wondering, what was the reason for changing from polytheism to monotheism? especially in such a dishonest manor? What was so wrong with polytheism that they felt it had to be changed? It sounds like someone “invented” monotheism, according to your theory and then the lies kept going from there.
As I explained to Nate, the claim that they weren’t deliberately lying doesn’t work.. scripture is in a factual format.. no implications of speculation and no oral beliefs are referenced/ mentioned.
What you’re claiming can be nothing but intentional deceit. And that doesn’t work. People won’t give their lives for flimsy speculation. They won’t create a fiction and then die for it.
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Dave, cont..
I do care. This was something important to me when I was a Christian. I can’t make sense of Genesis with a universe that is so old. God made it, made adam and eve, and then the genealogies start. If the earth is millions of years old (which you admit is very compelling) then something is not right. You can dismiss it and choose to not care. I choose to count this as one of many reasons to doubt the claim of divine authorship.”
Have you considered that the Adam & Eve and flood stories might be allegorical?
Sorry Dave but it is NOT a fact that the “changes” were to “cover up” polytheistic origins. This is your assumption, based on speculation.. not fact.
“You’re right, I should rephrase. The changes are there, that much is fact. The oldest say “sons of the gods” and the younger say “angels” and “sons of Israel”, this is also fact”.
No, that’s not fact either… they aren’t “changes”.. they are interpretations. The main goal of interpretation is to be as accurate as possible to the original meaning. The meaning that the NIV has is based on the entire context of the Bible.. the other writings/ authors. That would be the most reasonable interpretation.. because context is key to interpretation.
“What you make of these facts is your choice. I think it makes sense and is very reasonable to conclude that scribes who copied these texts made changes when something did not agree with them.”
http://www.kjvtoday.com/home/sons-of-israel-or-sons-of-god-in-deuteronomy-328
Just because the DSS are the oldest text we have, that doesn’t make them the “original” text.. it just means it’s the oldest we have possession of.
“Yeah, unfortunately we don’t have any originals for anything in the Bible. We have to make do with what we have and trust in the unknown scribes who made copies of copies. Most find it reasonable to conclude that older copies are more accurate than later copies.”
That’s right, we don’t.. so there is no way of knowing which are the closest to the originals. To make a conclusion that the oldest would be the most accurate is a mistake.. the kind of mistake you trust that all those scientists haven’t made but likely do.. all the time.
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“Our Savior giving His life for us should make you feel “sick”? I don’t get it.. can either of you explain this in greater detail?”
That wasn’t the part that made me feel sick. It had more to do with the Old Testament than the New Testament, but Revelations didn’t help. I am not a biblical scholar – I can only tell you how it made me feel to read it. I was not inspired to follow Jesus at all. I felt afraid for mankind, that so many believe it to be divinely inspired and true.
The Bible didn’t sell itself to this outsider. I was trying to be sympathetic to Christians, to understand them better. I am more baffled now than before I read it, more convinced that Christianity is not for me.
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Ruth:
“The Bible is merely evidence that people worshiped Yahweh.”
Right, just like the defendant walking out of the house is just evidence of him
walking out of the house.
If someone actually saw Yahweh leave the building the Bible would be equivalent evidence to the defendant walking out of the house. The Bible is oral tradition written down [in many cases] hundreds of years after the tradition began. So none of the people who wrote the scriptures down were even there when these things supposedly happened. Flimsy evidence at best. So it’s not the same. Moreover, if all the evidence is the defendant walking out of the house then it’s really not good evidence that the defendant committed a crime. There isn’t a jury who could convict on that basis alone. And if you would convict on that evidence alone I wouldn’t want you on any jury.
You have repeatedly given five or so “evidences” :
1) martyrs…which there are for most every major religion and many people are clearly willing and sometimes even eager to die for a lie(even if they believe it’s true).
2) our very existence – no one knows so in lieu of that knowledge…God.
3) Miracles – which I’m pretty sure we’ve narrowed down to “our very existence”.
4) Fulfilled prophecy…which are vague and many events in history have been retrofitted to match.
5) 40 authors taking 1500 years to write the bible…which, as I said, only shows that tradition was handed down that people worshiped Yahweh.
Dave gave you 20 yet you call his weak. Any evidence anyone has for or against a god would be circumstantial at best. We are all doing the best we can to be as objective as we can.
Ruth, I’d really like to hear you agree.. the defendant walking out of the house is just evidence of him walking out of the house… right?
Okay. If that’s all the evidence you’ve got, then yeah. How many times has someone been accused of a crime that they did not commit because of rash conclusions such as this?
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That’s right, we don’t[have any originals].. so there is no way of knowing which are the closest to the originals.
So, really, you don’t have any way of knowing if the original intent nor message of the Bible is being given in the scriptures we have today. Nor do you have any way of knowing how close the Bible we have today even resembles the original. Yet you are willing to bet it’s accurate and true but only when it suits your purposes and only the interpretation(NIV) that you like the best. Have you studied the manuscripts? Do you know Hebrew? How do you know the NIV is the best interpretation?
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Kathy,
ypui keep saying things like,
“Again, it comes down to WEIGHING the evidence. These exceptions (of reaching) do not outweigh the compelling evidence FOR the Truth of the Bible.”
what evidence is there that the bible is telling the truth about its divine origin?
you keep saying there’s compelling, factual evidence. what and where is it? showing the evidence would be more compelling than saying there is evidence.
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Hi Victoria,
We all had a great time thanks, I bought a swag and slept under the stars (and clouds) 🙂
Just in regards to what you wrote:
I hate being betrayed, and the thought that others have also fallen under the spell and may someday experience what so many of us have, is something I think about while having discourse with believers. This kind of betrayal is far worse than any betrayal of trust I’ve experienced in my life. As I’ve mentioned before, deconversion is not for the faint of heart.
I don’t see it like that. I don’t feel betrayed…but then again personally, I still believe in God. I have lots of shortcomings and inconsistencies, but I believe a person can be both reasonable and a believer.
Atheists I do not think have a monopoly on reason and clear thinking.
🙂
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Hi Kathy,
History is always written by the winners. Followers of Yahweh and then monotheism is what became orthodox and that’s what became the theme of the old testament. The same thing happened in the formation of the new testament. Whatever was deemed orthodox was included in the canon, everything else was deemed heretical.
I think at first priests of Yahweh wanted to push the fact that Yahweh was superior to the other gods. They wanted people sacrificing to Yahweh and not to Baal, Asherah or the other gods because there were benefits associated with being a successful priest. You get free room and board and free food not to mention some pretty nice robes. Eventually they pushed the ideology that Yahweh and El were one and the same and that all the other gods were false.
If you mean stories, then yes, that’s exactly what I think they are. They may even be adapted stories, the flood story is very similar to a Sumerian story in the epic of Gilgamesh.
Call them what you like. They are different.
We have no way of knowing what was going on in the minds of the Hebrew scribes from 2500+ years ago. You are giving them a lot of trust. Do you give that kind of trust to all men?
It may or may not be a mistake, but it seems reasonable since things have a habit of changing over time. So less time would equal less change. Nothing is for certain.
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The video has no relation to the topic, the song just makes me happy, so I thought I’d share it with you
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