278 thoughts on “Open Conversation Part 4”

  1. Lots of good stuff.

    I know Brandon’s getting inundated, so I’ll just say a couple of quick things.

    First of all, I get what Brandon’s saying about the Abraham/Isaac thing, and it’s similar to how I used to see it. I no longer see it that way though, and a large part of that is because I’m now a father of 3 children.

    I think the narrative makes it clear that Abraham was ready to carry out the sacrifice, even if he initially assumed that God would change the decree, raise Isaac from the dead, or provide some other means of escape. But he put Isaac on the altar and was bringing the knife down before he was stopped — all because he heard a voice in his head. Pretty shaky grounds for something with such dire consequences. It also suggests that if Satan had gotten to Abraham first, done a few tricks for him, or given him a few blessings, then Abraham would have done anything Satan had commanded. After all, in this story, God commands Abraham to kill his own son — something that should instinctively have been considered immoral — and Abraham is willing to do it. In other words, Abraham’s “great faith” was merely grounded in “might makes right.”

    And had I been Isaac, I know I never would have looked at my dad the same way again. How could you ever trust a guy that was ready to kill you for the voice in his head?

    Anyway, Brandon, you also said this:

    if we are willing to say God is limited by logical possibilities, then it may be that the objective achieved by this world logically requires moral agency. In other words, God may be logically constrained to first make a world with moral agents to achieve his goal and then make a new creation.

    I’m willing to say that God could be limited by logic, yet still be considered “omnipotent.” The whole “can God make a rock so big he can’t lift it?” thing. So maybe for his ultimate goal, he needed to put us in a world that gives us the ability to choose evil. Does this satisfactorily answer natural disasters? Or random accidents, like a kid drowning, etc?

    Also, should we wonder how worthwhile God’s ultimate plan is if it requires so much evil and suffering? If he eventually plans to equip us with “perfected” bodies of some kind that eliminate our desire to sin, but went this route first to weed out those who won’t make the cut, is such a thing really worth it? Should it be such a big deal if some people make it to the cosmic country club who really may not make the grade?

    Or could he perhaps lower his standards just a bit? Simply forgive people for who they are, whether they’ve done any penance or not?

    I know these are hypotheticals that we can’t know the answers to, but I still think they’re worth consideration. In fact, I really identified with this statement:

    I think the essence of faith is not believing that God exists, rather it is trusting in God’s goodness and holiness.

    It’s actually because I have such a high opinion of God’s morality that I don’t find Christianity believable.

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  2. Reading Neuro’s and Carmen’s condemnation of “child abuse” by God is typical liberal hypocrisy. I have no doubt that both of you are “pro choice”.

    Neuro said: “Had Abraham tried to pull this stunt today, he be sitting in a high security mental health facility or prison.”

    In the future, if we are around long enough, this generation will be looked upon as some of the worst barbarians in history for what we legally do to unborn human beings, our very own children. That you support that and yet condemn God for bringing His people closer to Him by strengthening their faith isn’t surprising at all.

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  3. Kathy, while this is an “open discussion” thread, I don’t want it to be sidetracked into the abortion debate right now. That’s not going to go anywhere productive, whereas the current conversation is very interesting at the moment. If you’d like to comment on something a bit more “on point,” you’re more than welcome.

    Thanks 🙂

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  4. Nate, it’s not a “sidetrack” to abortion.. abortion is used as an example to show a lack of objectivity when atheists address God.

    I do see how it could turn into a debate over abortion, but again, that would be due to a blatant lack of objectivity. Many legally aborted babies do feel pain, this is scientific fact.
    I don’t know how this can be acceptable, yet when our Creator exercises His sovereign right, (a right we don’t have) and it’s a constructive act of bringing His Creation closer to Him, that’s “horrible” and “child abuse”.

    This is just more proof of how biased thinking influences atheist’s beliefs. There is no objectivity. Atheists here or anywhere NEVER make comments that acknowledge the sovereign rights of a Creator. Instead the atheist is constantly judging God. Again, this is ultimately an issue of pride.. an unwillingness to humble ourselves before our Creator.

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  5. No, Kathy. Here’s the issue. First of all, no one here is “pro-abortion.” No one likes to see fetuses aborted. It’s a terrible situation. However, it’s also a complicated one. That’s really all that anyone who is “pro-choice” is acknowledging. It’s a complicated issue that is best left between a woman, her partner / family, and her physician.

    It’s still a sidetrack, because no one is claiming abortion is a moral act, whereas Abraham’s attempted sacrifice of Isaac is considered a noble example of faith among many believers. Very different scenario, so let’s please keep the conversation on track and leave the abortion discussion for a later date.

    Thanks

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  6. I never claimed that anyone “likes” abortions. That is “sidetracking”. You say it’s “complicated”.. yet God isn’t? His purpose and reasons wouldn’t be? Again, you’ve proven my point.

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  7. God may be complicated, but the description “without evil” is not. Any being that commands someone to kill their child to show how much they love said being does not match the “without evil” description.

    And when you remind yourself that this is a narrative passed down by mortals instead of being communicated directly by a divine being, it becomes even clearer.

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  8. Nate, this conversation is so far over her head that bringing up the subject of abortion is the only way she knows how to contribute. That, and her incessant accusations related to “objectivity” and “liberal thinking.”

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  9. God was testing Abraham’s faith… his belief in God AND His goodness. Just as anaivethinker pointed out.. Abraham indicated that he believed no harm would come to Isaac, that Isaac would come back with him. What Abraham was demonstrating besides his faith and trust, was his reverence for God… and this is what is blatantly lacking of atheists.. from an objective point of view. There isn’t even a hypothetical acknowledgement of the sovereignty of a Creator. And that reveals THE problem, I believe.

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  10. Kathy, this puts the cart before the horse.

    You’re taking the Bible — a book that includes the Abraham/Isaac story, as well as commands of genocide and rape; a book that sanctions slavery and misogyny; a book that contains questionable history, science, and contradicts itself in places; and was written by and passed down by anonymous writers from long ago — and you’re accepting its claims simply because God (if he exists) would be sovereign. Therefore, you have to accept anything that God says, even if it seems immoral or crazy.

    Instead, you should recognize that the Bible was written by men that you don’t know, who could be fallible. And you should examine what it says to see if it stands up to scrutiny. Instead of accepting it without question because “God is sovereign” — ask if a wholly-good God would act in such a way and write such a book. Analyzing the Bible and questioning its claims is not questioning God, nor is it ignoring his sovereignty. It’s questioning the people who wrote the Bible. That’s all it’s doing.

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  11. The story of Abraham and Isaac, is a thematic connection pointing to the sacrifice of YHWH’s son, and his plan for redemption. It was meant to lead His people to understanding, and show them their Mashiach. Notice the similarities in the two stories…

    They were both ” only begotten son”s
    They both carried the wood for the sacrifice
    They both went willingly without a fight
    The both rose on the third day
    The ram that was caught in the thicket, was caught by his horns… Crown of his head…by a thicket of thorns, just like Yahusha.
    They traveled 50 miles to go to mount Moriah, which is where Yahusha was crucified. When they were on their way up the mountain, Isaac questioned his father about the sacrifice, and he said “my son, YHWH will provide a lamb”.

    This is a really short explanation, cause it is so late, but hopefully you get the point. This is not just a crazy story about some tyrant demanding sacrifice. It is much more than that.

    I know I’ve been absent for a while, but with all the fall feasts and winter around the corner…things got busy! Glad to see your all still here!

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  12. Hope everyone is well 🙂

    I’ve just moved to the country from the city, for a job as a social worker. I’ve rented a little cottage out of the town I am based in. When I stand outside in the evenings I am surrounded by vineyards and a little way down the track are some orange trees.

    I moved up here last Friday and started work on the Tuesday. Quite a big transition, thank God my parents were a great in helping with the move. They even drove up sat with the bed, since prior to that I was swagging it.

    One thing that strikes me about this place is the silence. But I like it. It’s nice to come back to after a day in town. I have no tv. My evenings are taken up by gym and reading. I have a great landlord, really nice bloke. I can see his house from where I am. Very close, which is good. The town is small, but the organisation I work for covers a number of towns. I’ll be seeing more of them soon.

    I’m telling you this to give you a picture where I am.
    Last night coming home from gym I walked into a spiderweb. The web belonged to a red back spider, which I found out later, but since it was dark this was not yet known. The red back managed to climb across my shirt. By the time I turned on the light it was making its way across my front.

    After a bit of jumping around to get my shirt as far away from me as possible, and muttering get some foul language…

    I squashed it, after noticing it’s bright red stripe.

    Why do female red back spiders have a red back?
    Why should we be able to see it?

    Traits like this lead me to think about whether there is a painter behind the creatures 🙂

    All the best

    Ryan

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  14. Hi Ryan, seems to me the red backs are the dangerous ones, eh?

    Sounds like you’re in a lovely location; gotta love all those vineyards – keeps the wine cheap!

    Best of luck at your new job!

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  16. Brandon, I too would be interested to know if you have children, as it’s clear that for you (and others) the point of this mythological tale is that god is the supreme ruler and his edicts are always to be obeyed, without question. It is assumed (by the devout) that he always has a plan. I have heard John Piper’s ‘take’ on this same theme, which is one of, “It’s right for god to slaughter women and children whenever he pleases – he’s god and can do whatever he wants”. Nice guy.

    Sorry, but I have grave concerns about people who believe this chit. Here’s why: Sometimes they act on it.

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  17. I’m off to work and want to wish a happy Hallowe’en to all my spooky friends in cyber space! It ought to be great fun at school today!!

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  19. Sounds like a nice place Ryan. I would love to visit Australia one day. New Zealand looks amazing too.

    Laurie, that’s an interesting take on the story of Abraham and Isaac. What do you mean by “they both rose on the third day”?

    Nate, you wrote:
    “If he eventually plans to equip us with “perfected” bodies of some kind that eliminate our desire to sin, but went this route first to weed out those who won’t make the cut, is such a thing really worth it?”

    I was under the impression that Brandon thought everyone was going to be in the “new creation”, possibly even animals, but perhaps I’m mistaken.

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  20. Oh, you may be right Dave. Though I would then really have to wonder why it wasn’t done that way to begin with.

    @Laurie,
    Personally, I think the Jesus story borrows from Abraham and Isaac more than the other way around. Regardless, this still doesn’t suddenly make it all okay. We now just have two pretty horrible instances of child sacrifice.

    As a side note, I’m also curious about your reference to both rising on the 3rd day. Also, how do you make the Mt Moriah connection between the two of them? As I understand it, there’s some disagreement about what Genesis meant with this reference. Some scholars think this actually was referring to an area near the Amorites — probably some mountains near Shechem. But even if it really does mean Mt Moriah, Chronicles says that Solomon built the temple on Mt Moriah, so Jesus couldn’t have been crucified there. And the Bible makes no parallel between the two places. So while they may have been near one another (though I don’t believe the Abraham/Isaac story even happened), I don’t think it ties together quite as tightly as your comment suggested.

    This is not just a crazy story about some tyrant demanding sacrifice. It is much more than that.

    Emphasis on “not just” 😉

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  21. Ryan, great to hear from you! Sounds like things are going pretty well for you in your new digs, aside from spider attacks! The redback sounds pretty nasty, so I’m glad you avoided being bitten!

    @carmen —
    Hope you have a fun day at school! Happy Halloween 🙂

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  22. @Laurie “They were both ” only begotten son”s”
    well, that’s not true, he had another son.
    and “The both rose on the third day.”
    uh, where did you get that from? as far as i can see there is no mention of that in the buybull.
    do you just make this up as you go along? perhaps you can claritfy.

    @Carmen “Sorry, but I have grave concerns about people who believe this chit. Here’s why: Sometimes they act on it.”
    yes, indeed they do Carmen, just google “god told me to kill my child”. it seems to happen a lot.

    I watch a lot of Christian television and on every program without exception, someone will say, “god spoke to me and told theem to do this or that” or “the holy spirit told me to do this or that” usually it’s to ask for money.

    yesterday on the jim bakker show, that fraud jim bakker said “god told me a child will be beheaded this Halloween.” whaaaaaaat? well, today is Halloween, so, let’s keep our fingers crossed god was wrong.

    insanity that anyone thinks that any thought that pops into their head is “god inspired”.

    if I believed that the whole meaning and purpose of my life was to worship and love a being so vile, and if I didn’t comply I would be eternally punished, I truly would think my life was not worth living.

    Portal, glad to hear you are working out at a gym,
    it is important to keep our “cute little figures”.

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  23. lol, after my comment posted I see that I’m not the only one questioning the “rose on the third day” thing Laurie posted. I hope she can clear that up for us. seems I’m not the only one puzzled by that.

    I agree with Nate that “I think the Jesus story borrows from Abraham and Isaac more than the other way around.”

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  24. I will add, about this whole “Jesus story borrowing from….” business. The way I was taught to study the Bible was to interpret the OT through the NT lens. So nearly every story could be contorted to point toward Jesus. I had volumes written in a diary from my “quiet time” and Bible study time where I used a lot of Bible stories, especially Adam and Eve and Abraham and Isaac, always with the backdrop of the cross.

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