Sorry I’ve been away for a little while, guys. Just been really busy. I’ll try to jump back in again soon. 🙂
Open Conversation Part 4
Sorry I’ve been away for a little while, guys. Just been really busy. I’ll try to jump back in again soon. 🙂
Finding Truth 
Of course, you’re right, Brandon. None of us are truly unbiased. However, when I said “uninfluenced by Christian teachings,” I did mean it just that way. I was taught, as most other believers, that Christianity is an offshoot of the Jewish religion. Numerous scholars have underscored this via scripture, opinion, apologetics, etc.
However, since leaving the church and investigating Christian teachings from “the outside,” I have come to the conclusion that, as I’ve stated many times before, it is Pauline Christianity that exists today.
As I’m sure you know, most Jewish people do not believe Jesus is the Messiah. Why do you think that is? Could it perhaps be based on teachings that took place over the hundreds of years before Jesus?
As for the “great commission,” just because certain disciples believed Paul’s fairy tale does not devalue Jesus’ words in Matthew 10:23.
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Brandon, your view of God is becoming a bit odd. Are you saying that God does things that seem counter-intuitive to what we’ve been pre-programmed to think is moral in order to test our faith and trust in him?
Instinctively we think genocide is wrong and we think killing kids is wrong. For the sake of examining your theory, let’s say that this instinct is pre-programmed by God. Now we are all given this “test” to see if we question God’s goodness when he commands things that run in opposition to these moral instincts. So basically your God’s goal is to weed out all of the souls that fail the “Abraham test” and stick to their original instincts. These souls become annihilated. The ones that are able to pass the test, like Abraham, by compromising their instincts (I would even say warping their thinking) are given the keys to the kingdom.
Please give this some consideration and let me know if I am misrepresenting.
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Kathy,
Like others, I will admit that if the God of the Bible existed He would be sovereign. That is a ridiculous concept for you to try to get atheists to care about. Why would we care about the sovereignty of an entity in which we do not believe? It’s a non sequitur, in my opinion.
I tried having an actual conversation with you, and for whatever reason, you didn’t respond to me much. That’s fine, except that I decided to go and live my life instead of getting more frustrated trying to get through to you.
Last night, my son asked me if he could read to me from the Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. I thought that was a fantastic idea. He should have access to information about all religions. He knows the basic tenets of Jainism. Do you? I have explained the concept of the Christian creation stories, as well as panspermia theory to him. Have you considered this theory of how life on Earth may have begun? If not, how can you say you are being objective?
Does being objective mean studying Christianity exclusively until we come to believe it is true? I think it is more objective to consider others religions too, which I have, and not give Christianity undue emphasis.
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Gliese, make your case.. which religion gives a more compelling explanation for our existence.. please don’t send me on a wild goose chase with a list of links.. don’t recommend a pile of books.. there’s plenty of space here to give your reasons for why I should look at another particular religion/explanation. I’ve never closed my mind.. it’s been open, and that’s why I can explain WHY Christianity is the answer.. and not the FSM. If you want to waste time looking into the fsm as a possible explanation, that’s entirely your prerogative.. and please feel free to share what compelling evidence you might find.
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IMO, no religion offers an explanation (compelling or otherwise) for our existence.
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Kathy,
I don’t care why we exist. I didn’t say I had any compelling evidence from any religion about why we are here. That is exactly the point – if I had encountered compelling evidence from any religion explaining our existence, I would, by definition, be compelled to accept it. What is clear is that the planet exists. Life arose somehow, and science takes it from there. Christianity is your answer, not mine. We’re not even asking the same question. In fact, I’m sure we don’t exist in the same world.
I am not looking for an explanation, from you or anybody else, about why we are here. I don’t want to change what you believe about that. If your faith works for you,, great! It doesn’t work for me. By your works, you shall be known, apparently. From what I can see, your faith isn’t working for you either, unless spewing negative energy is something to which Christians aspire. If you strive to be frustrated with most of humanity, then you’re successful. I’d rather be a well-adjusted failure.
Even though I don’t need to know why we are here, I think what we do with our moments, our lives, is important. I strive to bring joy and comfort to people’s lives. The overriding feeling I get from you is that my atheism is unacceptable to you. and that no matter who I am or what else I do, my entire being is wasted because I don’t believe in one god among thousands. This is absurd.
If I could believe just to make you happy, what kind of integrity would I have? Sometimes I wish I could. I think it is very unlikely to happen. If it does, I will gladly proclaim it. I won’t get there by force or out of shame. It’s not stubbornness or pride – it is who I am. If you knew me at all, you would not say I am prideful, as you are wont to claim all atheists are.
I don’t think for a minute that I am going to change you. In my better moments, I can use conversations like this to change my behavior.
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Gliese,
I haven’t been making any specific comments to you except in response to your comments to me. I don’t have any problem at all with what you believe, it seems that the opposite is the case. You are bothered by my belief in God and my arguments that I put forth to support my belief.
If this were your facebook page or a blog about knitting.. I could see where you’re coming from, but this is a blog with a heading that makes a claim of the importance of truth and finding it. And it insinuates that God is not where truth leads. I’m just here to argue that in an honest open way. And that means that if I feel, based on actual words and actions, that people aren’t applying objectivity, I’ve got to state that. How else can truth be found if not through honesty and objectivity? It can’t.
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Dave,
“Yes, I do feel objectivity is important and yes, I would want to know if I was not being objective. I also understand that it may be impossible to completely rid oneself of all bias and personal feelings. Being aware of our own bias’ is certainly helpful. We also need to try and look at things from a variety of perspectives.”
First, that’s what objectivity is.. looking at things from a variety/ all perspectives, but WITH honesty (that part is key). Seeing something from another perspective is one thing, acknowledging that perspective with honesty, is quite another. That’s what I’ve witnessed here I believe, most can see the other perspective, but they can’t acknowledge the truth of it.. to others and even to themselves.. instead they get angry and offensive.
The other thing is that, yes, ridding ourselves of all bias is hard.. but bias and objectivity are two different things. I have a bias for conservative beliefs.. but I can still be objective when considering points.. we all can. We don’t have to give up our bias.. it just has to be set aside in order for honesty AND the truth to prevail. That you tried to put forth somewhat of an excuse for not being completely objective because we can’t completely rid ourselves of bias seems to support the idea that you haven’t been applying true objectivity. Because, again, bias and objectivity are two different things.. that can coexist just fine if honesty is also included. Bias isn’t the problem, honesty is the problem. True objectivity can’t exist without honesty.
Several people have stated in response to my comment, that yes, if God exists, they acknowledge His sovereignty. But that isn’t the point. I was pointing out that it was MISSING before.. which demonstrated a lack of objectivity when arguments were addressed. When discussing God and His words or actions, this was never acknowledged. It was always as if God was just another human being, expected to behave and respond as just another human being… not the Creator of everything.. which if applying objectivity, that’s the context that has now been “formally” acknowledged.
“Kathy, if you want to reach the folks on this blog I think you should adopt a different approach. This is just my humble opinion, you can take it or leave it. Rather than making accusations you should do some research on a topic and then present an argument in a rational manner so we can all read it and consider it. Rather than trying to shame us into agreeing with you, just present us with information that you found convincing. ”
Dave, I had asked you if you believed objectivity was important and if you would want to know if you weren’t being objective. Are you referring to my accusations of lack of objectivity? Because that’s the only accusations I’ve made and also lack of honesty which are the same thing.
And I’ve stated that you all are liberals, which no one seems to like.. but no one has responded to my request to show that they aren’t liberals by espousing non liberal beliefs.
I honestly don’t know what I’m doing wrong. I’m giving valid arguments. And I’m pointing out what I feel is lack of objectivity and honesty based on specific words and actions of those I’m making the accusation against… so, again, this has become about me.. instead of THE debate about “finding truth”. And this is why I leave… I’m just really tired of going around in circles all the time.. really tired.
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“so, again, this has become about me.. instead of THE debate about “finding truth”. And this is why I leave… I’m just really tired of going around in circles all the time.. really tired.”
You made it about yourself (the one who claims to be enlightened) while believing Paul’s accusations in 2 Corinthians 6 — regarding unbelievers in your god — that we are “darkness, lawless, wicked, and unrighteous.” I’ll add to the list — in your words, that we are not objective and honest. I guess that falls into the above categories that Paul mentioned.
Kathy, you appear to be playing psychological games with us, so please stop trying to act like you’re being persecuted. We have been trying to explain to you why we left Christianity, and chose not to lower our ethical / moral standards by worshiping a god who has the behavior of the worst of dictators who wants total obedience without questioning and subjects his faithful to cruel, inhumane tests of faith even though he supposedly claims to already know the outcome.
@Dave, you brought up an excellent point when addressing Brandon regarding Abraham. While he may not have intended to come across as expecting us go against our empathic instincts, that is exactly what sects of Christianity teach when they promote the Bible as being the word of God. As devout believers, Christian can become desensitized to the suffering of Others (unbelievers in the biblical god), and justify (godly) antisocial behavior as clearly seen in scripture.
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“I’ve just moved to the country from the city, for a job as a social worker.”
@Ryan, congratulation on your new place and job — oh, and bed. 😀
Glad you didn’t get bit by the redback spider. Did you notice if it was male or female? In the moment of panic, I’m sure you didn’t, lol. Apparently, only the female bite is poisonous to humans. Redbacks rarely leave their webs so humans are not likely to be bitten unless a body part such as a hand is put directly into the web, and because of their small jaws many bites are ineffective.
The “painted” bright red colors are believed to serve as a warning to potential predators like you. 😉
Welcome back, and I wish you the best on your new journey.
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Kathy, when you make generalized statements about atheists, you are addressing me. I don’t have a problem with what you believe, but rather your style of approaching engaging in discussions with a group in which I belong. I don’t care if you want to worship the Almighty Sock Monkey, but don’t expect me to go along with it, no matter how much you believe.
You accuse us of dishonesty, but I am stating the truth as I see it. You say we are not objective, yet many of us strive to be as objective as we can be. What would satisfy your requirement for objectivity? Does it involve immersion in the Bible and Christian culture until we become convinced it is true? I think that in order to satisfy your requirements for objectivity, one would have to already be biased in the direction of thinking there is any more truth in the Bible than anywhere else. That is biased. As I have previously stated, I have given Christianity much more consideration than any other belief system. It didn’t convince me of its truth. Do you propose I keep pounding it into my head until I do believe? That’s not objectivity – it’s indoctrination.
I don’t think being objective is the same as willingly suspending disbelief. That is for fiction, to help us act as if something were real. I’ve read the Bible, gone to church, been as open-minded as I could be, and yet I remain a non-believer. Where was your god then? Did I not do it well enough? I gave your god what benefit of the doubt I could muster. That’s fair, isn’t it? What else would you have me do?
I’ve moved on, but if something happens that changes my mind, I will change what I believe. I’m not going to twist my mind to believe something that doesn’t make sense to me, especially when I have investigated it thoroughly enough already. That just doesn’t make any sense.
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Nan,
Sorry, I need to be more clear that I trust that you have done your scholarly work trying to be as unbiased as possible, and that’s how you came up with your conclusion.
Don’t you think this is Petrine and Pauline Christianity? It seems that Peter came to the same conclusions as Paul in Acts and in the Petrine epistles. Of course, you can find some way to argue against Acts and say the Petrine epistles are pseudonymous as modern scholarship proclaims.
At the very least I think you would have to conclude that there is a case for the Peter and Paul in broad agreement about Gentiles and not requiring them to adopt the rituals of Judaism.
Oh and BTW Jesus predicted the destruction of the temple which precludes properly conducting the rituals of Judaism. In fact, it was destroyed by the wrath of God as judgment. Check into “partial preterism” if you haven’t done so!
The historic mission to the Jews. . . almost certainly succeeded with stunning success. This is needed to help explain the rise of Christianity in the Roman Empire and there is also good archeological evidence as well. Please go to a book store and read chapter 3 of The Rise of Christianity by Rodney Stark which gives all the evidence, largely by sociological reconstructions. That whole book is a gem.
It wasn’t until the anti-Semitism of the Reformers that we get more of a divide. Also, Reformed Judaism may water down the idea of a Messiah, I’m not entirely sure.
If you listen to Michael Brown’s conversion story which I think can be found on YouTube he was raised Orthodox and he explains kind of how he converted when he learned about Messianic prophecy and how the Orthodox Rabbis rationalized this prophecy.
There are a number of reasons why they reject Jesus now. I highly doubt most Reformed and Orthodox Jews reject Jesus because of an informed conclusion. They just totally reject prophecy at all. It’s all just retrofitted vague meanderings. Also, people have a negative perception of Christianity because of the Religious Right political movement. Etc.
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Dave,
Not so much that God does things counter-intuitive, but may design sort of walls that require us to have faith analogous to Abraham. To some people it may seem like counter-intuitive actions. But, each person has their own walls. Most people are totally unaware that an intellectual problem of evil even exists. But, despite this they live in the human condition and experience suffering. Their suffering makes them question God and there’s no way to sit there and figure everything out. The only way is to trust and hope in God.
For those of us who are cerebral and trying to understand if we can infer something about the world to figure out what a creator deity would be like, we are the ones that hit the wall of the problem of evil. I think this is all the same type of wall. There is no perfectly satisfactory solution, but the creator deity would know that this would be the case. So, it would be an intentional design. This is why I think for those of us who are cerebral, the first step is thinking there is a possible way for God to be good, for there to be reasons for allowing this existence to be this way. I personally think that it’s more important than arguments for God’s existence and the truth of Christianity. Of course, they work together and depending on the what matters to the person. There are others like Howie who is more concerned about a lack of hard evidence and really much less concerned about evil. Howie also does not seem to self-identify as an atheist, but as a possibilian, which I take to be more of an agnostic view. Others that self-identify as atheists are chiefly concerned with evil in my experience.
Well, it’s not really about going against our instincts or moral intuitions. It’s more about when we hit a wall that is unclear and that questions God’s character, we are given a choice to trust.
Abraham’s situation was highly specific to him because of God’s promises, the improbability of Isaac’s birth, and also he was in a culture in which human sacrifice may have been acceptable in the first place. That doesn’t mean he regularly practiced human sacrifice. That just means he may have NOT had the visceral reaction that we modern humans have. So, it was sort of unclear what God was getting at, it seemed absurd, but ultimately it required that Abraham trust in God’s goodness.
With the genocide, this situation is also highly specific to their culture. And, it follows a pattern of divine judgment that even falls upon Israel (i.e., Babylon, Rome in 70 AD). To dissect out the morality of the conquest commandment is a long undertaking but clearly the modern reader is most offended by God’s request that even Canaanite children be killed as part of this judgment. (I can also give an example of an ancient Jewish reader from the 1st century BC who was equally concerned – Philo of Alexandria, and also a early Christian who rejected the Old Testament – Marcion). Of course the adults in Canaan we can at least imagine that they had built up their iniquities for 400 years of culture until and had fallen under divine judgment. The children on the other hand are not guilty of their parent’s iniquity. So, why have them killed? Is it even possible that God could have a reason? That’s basically the question that is the wall for the modern reader.
Again, this is for cerebral people who study the Old Testament. We have to come to terms with this wall. If we cannot imagine a way, then ultimately we do not trust God in an analogous way of Abraham (i.e., it’s only analogous, not a recapitulation).
But, even for people who are less cerebral, like I said, we all experience hardship in this life and if we believe in God or are considering this belief, we will run into some kind of similar wall.
I think it even gets more complicated. . . but at least I hope this helps explain what I think a little better!
-Brandon
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I will be on vacation for the next week and without computer!
Thanks to everyone for good discussion, and I apologize for not being as engaging as I could. That’s something I need to work on.
Please be safe and well and I’ll leave you with an important message to consider when you’re getting into a complex subject matter:
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@gliese“By your works, you shall be known, apparently. From what I can see, your faith isn’t working for you either, unless spewing negative energy is something to which Christians aspire. If you strive to be frustrated with most of humanity, then you’re successful. I’d rather be a well-adjusted failure.”
lol, so true, so true.
@N℮üґ☼N☮☂℮ṧ Kathy, you appear to be playing psychological games with us, so please stop trying to act like you’re being persecuted.
exactly right, this is nothing but a silly childish game with her.
Kathy keeps hitting on our dishonesty,
in essence she is calling everyone of us liars, but it is Kathy that lies.
it’s Kathy that lacks objectivity.
I’d love to slap that idiot right up side her ignorant fat face. goddamn bitch.
Kathy, you truly are a miserable fuck with no life.
(btw, god told me to say that, I can’t be held responsible, just doing the lord’s work,)
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Neuro said:
“You made it about yourself (the one who claims to be enlightened) while believing Paul’s accusations in 2 Corinthians 6 — regarding unbelievers in your god — that we are “darkness, lawless, wicked, and unrighteous.” I’ll add to the list — in your words, that we are not objective and honest. I guess that falls into the above categories that Paul mentioned.
Kathy, you appear to be playing psychological games with us, so please stop trying to act like you’re being persecuted. ”
I’m not the one playing games Neuro, you all are playing the games but what makes it even worse is that you’re playing games with yourself as well. Refusing to be honest and objective is a game within yourself. It’s simple denial.
Examples of lack of objectivity:
1) I never claimed to be “enlightened”.. I claim to have beliefs that I can adequately defend.
You have different beliefs.. why is it that me expressing my beliefs equals claims of “enlightenment” but somehow that’s not the case with you? What’s the difference exactly?
2)So it seems that any Christian who doesn’t believe Paul is a false apostle believes that all non believers are “darkness, lawless, wicked, and unrighteous.” I’ve never made those claims Neuro. And again, this is an issue of context.. Paul was talking mainly about the people of his day. He’s not talking about you specifically and because I agree with Paul that doesn’t mean I believe those things about you. I believe non believers are lost. No matter how “good” you try to be, without Christ you will still be lost.
You can’t attach words and beliefs to me that I never stated Neuro, and then accuse me of playing games.. that’s YOU playing games, not me. That’s you who is lacking objectivity.
“We have been trying to explain to you why we left Christianity, and chose not to lower our ethical / moral standards by worshiping a god who has the behavior of the worst of dictators who wants total obedience without questioning and subjects his faithful to cruel, inhumane tests of faith even though he supposedly claims to already know the outcome.”
Look at my recent comments, I’ve addressed these unsupported claims against God, reasonably and with detail. Have you addressed my responses? Nope. But instead, you accuse *ME* of “playing games”. This seems like very biased judging to me.
I’m not trying to “act” like the persecuted one.. I’m just spending a lot of time defending myself when it’s not why I’m here.. you all make it about me because you don’t want to address the actual points.. at least with Nate, he just leaves.. he is above the personal attacks when he doesn’t have a response.
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Kathy, if this were my blog and you used “objectivity” one more time, I would ban you forever!!!
It wouldn’t be so bad if you knew what you were talking about, but you don’t. And this is proven every time you post something. You just go around and around with your words and say nothing.
Nate doesn’t just “leave.” He actually has a life besides this blog. Even so, when he posts something, it has substance and value. You may not agree or like what he says, but he spells things out clearly and concisely ((as do many others on this blog).
One more thing — you accuse Neuro of playing games. It takes one to know one.
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Kathy –
How, PRECISELY, is it that you are “good” – with Christ – again? I don’t think you’ve enlightened us on that bit yet.
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“One more thing — you accuse Neuro of playing games. It takes one to know one.”
And I am not one. 😉
Kathy, you have repeated over and over that we were not being objective and that we were not being honest. Translation: we are lying. You lumped us all in one category and claimed that we were destroying America. You have made many accusations and this is why I think you are playing psychological games, a.k.a. trolling.
“I claim to have beliefs that I can adequately defend.”
After over 6,000 comments and 4 or was it 5 Kathy posts? — you have not adequately defended your beliefs. Instead, you’ve spent more time telling us repeatedly that we are unable to be objective and honest. That’s troll vocabulary. I’ve met many fine Christians. You are not one of them. You are not a Christian, period. You’re a troll.
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Truly sad. No matter how much I point out what you all are doing wrong, it doesn’t matter one bit. You all continue to do it in complete ignorance.
No points about the actual argument/ debate.. just personal attacks WITHOUT any kind of actual evidence to back it up.
This is what I meant by.. “That’s what I’ve witnessed here I believe, most can see the other perspective, but they can’t acknowledge the truth of it.. to others and even to themselves.. instead they get angry and offensive.”
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most can see the other perspective, but they can’t acknowledge the truth of it.
Whose truth, Kathy? Yours?
You have been provided valid information, references, quotes, evidence, and more (much of it from your reverenced bible) and yet you continue to berate those who have responded to you and tell them they “lack objectivity,” they are speaking from a “liberal” mindset, they “lack perspective,” they are not being “honest,” etc., etc.
I think I speak for others when I say we are not angry or offensive. We’re just tired of providing you with OUR viewpoints and having you dismiss them out-of-hand because they don’t agree with your philosophy on life, religion, and/or god.
You’re right, Kathy. It is truly sad …
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ugh.. I rest my case.
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As I’ve mentioned before, Kathy reminds me of the trying little sh*t in the class who desperately seeks attention – even if it’s by annoying/insulting behaviour.
Pathetic, really.
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Kathy,
I agree that this is an effort in futility. Why do you bother?
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