Sorry I’ve been away for a little while, guys. Just been really busy. I’ll try to jump back in again soon. 🙂
Open Conversation Part 4
Sorry I’ve been away for a little while, guys. Just been really busy. I’ll try to jump back in again soon. 🙂
Finding Truth 
Howie,
I think your criticism is helpful and I’m not just saying this to flatter you. I think your comment draws out something that may not be well understood. When I first got into theodicies for these acts (i.e., theodicy meaning justification for God), I was highly resistant to them being labeled as genocide. I would argue till we were blue in the face that this was not really genocide. That was years ago, now I think that’s a battle that’s not worth fighting because it definitely looks like the modern conception of genocide and fits certain definitions of genocide. Now, I’ll say regardless of this label, I want to draw an important distinction from my worldview.
This distinction would be that not all genocides are the same. In 1 Samuel 15:3, YHWH requests Saul to avenge the Amalekite culture just like YHWH had requested the Israelites to do the same to the Canaanites in Deuteronomy 20:17. I am no Hebrew scholar, but to my understanding it’s the same root word here, herem, which is translated as “utterly destroy” or “annihilate” but it carries a deeper meaning. It means to devote something entirely to God. The Arabs in Darfur and the Nazis did not have a sanction from God that they were doing the right thing to devote something to God. They were involved in ethnic cleansing for human purposes like politics and evil ideologies, not asked to judge a culture for God’s purposes. Keep in mind that the Israelites and King Saul were resistant to take on God’s command here, and I’m not sure the young men pulling the trigger in Darfur or the cold Nazi who pulled the lever in the gas chamber were resistant. It seems to me they would have to really be on board with their ideology to kill these people. But, the Israelites and Saul resisted. Why would an author construct this aspect of the story? If anything, the author is writing in God’s favor, not the Israel tribe and not for tribalism. Also, keep in mind that Israel itself was judged. They were captured by Babylon. And, what about the first century holocaust? Jesus’ coming as the Son of Man was prophetic language for God’s judgment on Israel in 70 AD in which perhaps a million Jews died in Jerusalem and not in a pleasant way – starvation, crucifixion, war. No one seems to be spared by God’s judgment, whether it’s by one nation coming up against another nation by an act of genocide, or it is by the natural course of decay and death. A nice, quite death while sleeping is still ultimately a result of human sinning according to biblical thinking.
What I am ultimately questioning in my challenge of secular views of the bible is the idea that God is not sovereign and cannot be justified to judge certain groups of people in this way. Israel is not spared, nor are you and I. Otherwise, would I just throw up my hands and say there is really not something wrong with the world that is worthy to be judged? If there is such a thing as punishment and justice, and a wholly good deity exists, then these kinds of actions, even destroying entire cultures, should not be surprising.
But, I also understand the allure of chalking these problems up to human misrepresentation as Thom Stark does. This is how I wanted to solve the problem when I first started in the theodicy business. But, it seems to add on even more problems than it solves like I mentioned to Dave.
Anyway, I hope I this at least gives you more of an insight into some of the distinctions that theists try to make. And, I hope it’s not just my hypoglycemia typing along here, cuz I have not had lunch yet.
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Dave, here is the video I was referring to. I thought it’s worth posting because I think this is basically the idea of “sinful nature” but discovered by someone who was not a Christian:
He also goes into other interesting areas in the speech.
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@Brandon.
One of the most ridiculous exercises is for someone like you to argue over the validity/justification of the character Yahweh and his actions in the Old T as if they really happened.
The Pentateuch is fiction and thus to continue in a frame of mind that it has any basis in historical fact is utterly ridiculous.
It is no better than arguing the pros and cons of Harry Potter and his sidekicks as if they were real people.
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Nate,
These are great points that really constrain what I mean by “these cultures must have rejected what God offered them”. There really needs to be something that is universal, part of the human condition. One of these I think is the conscience. I’m not at all opposed to the conscience being a natural product of evolution. Regardless of its source, humans still do things that are unconscionable through desensitizing themselves and giving into selfish passions. Another thing that seems to be universal is our religious impulse which I think you recognize to some extent by saying that the ancients created myths and wanted to find gods. I don’t think creating mythologies is really a bad thing. There seems to be some deep truths to many mythologies. But, what if one created something that was evil or had an evil message? What about creating a stone figure and saying that if you worship this it will bless you? That to me seems to be a perverted expression of the religious impulse. I think the biblical analogy of marriage is particularly useful here. Sex is not inherently evil, but sex in certain contexts is evil such as infidelity.
So, I could say this simply by saying that God gives humanity some universals to go on, but instead we nearly universally disregard them and pervert our cultures. Idolatry becomes canonized in cultures and children must be systematically desensitized and indoctrinated, brainwashed if you will, to believe the lies and worship something that was created by human hands. This even happens today. The new child sacrifice is spending too much time at work for the sake of money or prestige at the expense of spending time with one’s own children.
I like that you referenced Romans here, because I think Paul’s idea resonates with what I am saying. Paul starts in Romans 1:18 by saying that there is something about nature that cultures ought to recognize there is something powerful and divine out there that cares about our behavior, yet the Gentiles disregarded this idea, and as punishment God gave them up to idolatry and their degrade passions. Then, in chapter 2 Paul starts addressing the Jews saying that they will not escape God’s judgment even though they have been entrusted with the truth. One of my favorite parts that seems to be overlooked is this:
“[The Gentiles] show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness; and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them on the day when, according to my gospel, God, through Jesus Christ, will judge the secret thoughts of all.” (Romans 2:15-16)
This is amazing because Paul affirms that God has extended something universal that is not necessarily in the form of a propositional truth, rather something within our minds as humans. Our conscience, our desires, our secret thoughts, our choices. We as humans are all able to align ourselves with God’s purpose even if we don’t know that we are doing it or if it can be expressed in propositional truths about specific historical events.
The thing with the Canaanites is that their culture seems to have crossed a line. Humans are free to make their cultures, just as individuals are free to create their lives and meanings. Once they cross a certain line and anger God, they are judged. The writer of Deuteronomy says:
“When the LORD your God thrusts [the Canaanites] out before you, do you not say to yourself, ‘It is because of my righteousness that the LORD has brought me in to occupy this land’; it is rather because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD is dispossessing them before you.” (Deuteronomy 9:4)
At some point evil becomes so prevalent and it spreads from parents to children, that God will judge the entire culture. And, no one seems to be spared as if they were special somehow, not even Israel itself.
Well, let me push back on this idea of a moral progression. Steve Pinker has a book about the decline of violence, but it’s amazing that the twentieth century has been the bloodiest ever. Millions upon millions slaughtered in our times. Have we progressed morally? We have the abolition of slavery, yet sex trafficking is running rampant. Modern slavery is predatory loans and society taking advantage of people to the point of making them indentured servants. Think of higher education. I still have a huge outstanding debt owed to a big bank from my medical school loans. Even if I didn’t want to be a doctor, there is absolutely no way for me to pay off my debt any other way. I am an indentured servant to society. No, not a chattel slave, but this was prohibited by the Mosaic Law. This was what we abolished, but let’s not pretend that our societies don’t have huge problems. We simply trade problem for problem or give the illusion that a problem is solved when really it’s just whitewashed and shifted into some other domain. Humans are still humans, inventing ways to do evil, and there is no such thing as moral progress. David Foster Wallace talks about modern society as being totally disconnected and we live in our own personal prisons of hedonism because we have lost what the ancient societies got better than us. Our economies depend on this incessant desire staying alive, but it comes at the cost of us wanting more and more and it ends up bringing a deep sense of emptiness and loneliness that causes us to want to escape through mind-numbing entertainment and drugs. There is no such thing as moral progress. It’s just a fantasy that we like to think is true because it’s pleasant.
I’m commuting 60 miles total a day so that I can live with my wife, but I feel horribly guilty for burning up that much fossil fuel. I had to make a judgment: risk my marriage or contribute to the rising CO2 levels. Why am I stuck here in this morally progressed society having to make a choice about my wife or the future or human civilization? That to me is beyond messed up, but thank you so much morally progressed society that blesses me with a thankless 80 hour work week and lets me buy some cool new shoes or binge on Netflix. Thank you morally progressed society. (Diatribe over)
I know that’s kind of a weird response, but I hope it begins to challenge the notion of moral progress.
The weirdest part of the whole situation is that I think I recognize how weird the situation is. I don’t think faith is believing in something that has evidence stacked against it. The more I look into it, I don’t think my reconversion started with arguments for the truth of anything. It started with thinking to myself, “You know. . . maybe I’m missing something. . . maybe this thing can be good and I’m just misunderstanding where it can.” It started when I got into criticisms of modern evangelicalism and I could hear the voices from within saying something appealing. Then, there was this thinking. Here we are on this orb of dirt hoping there is some kind of meaning to life and death. What if this guy, Jesus really did resurrect? Is that any less probable than the fact that I exist here? At some point it hit me hard and I just believed. I’ve systematically tried to determine where my faith comes from. Do I believe because of an argument? I’ve determined that it can’t be because I can refute all of them. Arguments are necessary, but they are like snakes eating field mice. When the field mice population all dies out, the snakes die of starvation leaving a heap of snake skeletons. That’s the problem with arguments, they are necessary, but in the end they are dead. I think I had to make a decision to trust that the light on the inside comes from God and is not reality playing a trick on me. Those things are what I think make up faith.
-B
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Brandon, oh my. I became depressed after reading your post. It does seem apparent to me that you see the world as a glass half empty, or perhaps even empty. Did you count the cost before you went to med school? Perhaps if you had lived in a Nordic or Scandinavian country where their society looks after each other rather than depending on ancient superstitions, you might be faring better, no?
If infidelity happens in a relationship, I don’t label it as evil. When I was a Christian, I did. I’m not justifying people giving in to certain impulses, but when I sought to understand these evolutionary impulses humans can have, such as what is known as the Coolidge Effect, I gained a better understanding as to what may be one of the main causes that drive people to commit adultery.. Just imagine if Jesus had actually taught biology and sex education rather than guilt men and state they had already committed adultery if they so much as looked upon a woman with lust in his heart.
Sex trafficking has been around since biblical days because the bible devalued females. In Numbers 31, for example, Yahweh though nothing about commanding his faithful servants, such as Moses, to kill all the men, women who were not virgins, and boys, but keep the girls for themselves. Not to mention, stealing their property. Girls were unclean for much longer than boys. You think that doesn’t affect the psyche of a society?
Pinker’s analysis was sound, but I think that the more we shed our archaic traditions that was intended for another age, the better off we will be as a species. In other words, the more secular we become and the less religious, the more likely we will depend on each other rather than outdated belief systems that tend to be tribal and controlling.
For the first time in recorded history, women are finally being treated as human beings, not chattel.
Children now have greater access to education at younger ages. We have gained a better understanding of how to prevent attachment disorders which can lead to antisocial behavior. Many countries are now paying for women and men to take time off work to bond with their children, without the fear of losing their jobs. You see this in your more secular countries, i.e., Nordic and Scandinavia. These countries tend to be the most peaceful.
Brandon, there is a lot of good happening in this world. Take for instance
1) Fewer people are dying young and more are living longer. Between 1990 and 2010, the percentage of children who died before their fifth birthday dropped by almost half. Measles deaths declined by 71 percent, and both tuberculosis and maternal deaths by half again. HIV, that modern plague, is also being held back, with deaths from AIDS-related illnesses down by 24 percent since 2005.
2) Fewer people suffer from extreme poverty, and while you might not see it in your most religious countries, more people report they are happier. fewer people in abject penury than at any other point in human history, and middle class people enjoy their highest standard of living ever. 721 million fewer people lived in extreme poverty ($1.25 a day) in 2010 than in 1981.
3)War is becoming rarer and less deadly.
4) Rates of murder and other violent crimes are in free-fall.
5) There’s less racism, sexism, and other forms of discrimination in the world. Over the centuries, humanity has made extraordinary progress in taming its hate for and ill-treatment of other humans on the basis of difference alone. Indeed, it is very likely that we live in the least discriminatory era in the history of modern civilization. It’s not a huge prize given how bad the past had been, but there are still gains worth celebrating.
6) Equality is expanding
Yes, we have problems because many cultures still promote the same hierarchical, tribal, xenophobic environments (as seen in biblical times) that affect neurotransmitters, which affect the brain and behavior, thus profoundly affecting society. We know that when people are in power for too long, they have less empathy and less compassion for the poor. So we definitely need to implement preventative measures.
I suggest you read the paper by Robert Sapolsky, “Peace Among Primates”. As I said before, if baboons can do it — so can we. Though not perfect, we have human models and significant evidence that we are living in a better time than ever in recorded history. But if people are conditioned to see humans as innately evil and depraved, in need of redemption, then how do you expect humanity to be prosocial if that’s how they view their fellow citizens?
Garbage in, garbage out. I challenge you to see the glass half full. 😉
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More sources for some of the above info.
http://thinkprogress.org/security/2013/12/11/3036671/2013-certainly-year-human-history/
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-secular-life/201410/secular-societies-fare-better-religious-societies
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Neuro, you truly have it backwards.. I’ll just ask you this..
If it’s atheists and non religious governments who “truly” care about others how do
you explain the fact that conservatives (Christians mostly) give more than liberals to help the needy? Christians look after one another here.. the charities that help the needy in this country are overwhelmingly Christian. But you neglected to mention that.
Those Nordic countries might appear to have the “answer” but their policies will fail in the end.. the govt. cannot run or sustain an economy and be the caretakers of society. It has never worked in the past and there’s no reason to believe that it’ll suddenly work now. Taxation is always the “answer” to the solve the problems in that type of govt. and there’s a limit to that.. and it’s at that point that it fails to work.. leaving EVERYONE, except the rich liberal elite of course, much much worse off than anything a free market has ever seen.
” Just imagine if Jesus had actually taught biology and sex education rather than guilt men and state they had already committed adultery if they so much as looked upon a woman with lust in his heart. ”
Teaching biology and sex ed is better than the lessons that Jesus taught? Following His teachings would leave you not even needing those other things.
And you took the lust lesson out of context.. it’s about addressing what is in our hearts.. which again, is far more superior than the superficial “wisdom” that says anything is ok as long as you’re “protected”. Society is NOT getting better with this kind of liberal mindset taking over.
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“Children now have greater access to education at younger ages.”
As if Christians are against education.. what exactly do you base this on??
“Many countries are now paying for women and men to take time off work to bond with their children, without the fear of losing their jobs. You see this in your more secular countries, i.e., Nordic and Scandinavia.”
You see this in private companies right here in this country! Another incorrect biased assumption that only govt. can take care of society.. it’s actually truly scary.. please read up on some actual, UNREVISED history.
“These countries tend to be the most peaceful.”
Based on what?
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““According to this multivariate analysis which takes into account a plethora of indicators of societal well-being, those states in America with the worst quality of life tend to be among the most God-loving/most religious (such as Mississippi and Alabama), while those states with the best quality of life tend to among the least God-loving/least religious (such as Vermont and New Hampshire). The correlation holds internationally, as well.”
And this always makes me shake my head.. the “God loving” states are also the southern states, where it’s much cheaper to live. Those northern states have high costs of living.
And why are the southern states “God loving” states? Because those with humility tend to be believers. Those who are wealthy tend to “believe” in their money.
Also, here’s the thing I’ve noticed with liberals.. they are the ones who are so obsessed with money/ material things. That seems to be the basis for their happiness.. their “quality of life” seems to be based on the size of the house and the make of the car. And they just can’t imagine anyone being happy without those things. You won’t find happier people than Christians.. particularly “poor” Christians.. people who understand what true happiness is about. Those poor have all their needs met.. they don’t “need” a big house or fancy car.. and they are truly happy. And those Christians who do have those things don’t pity those who don’t have those luxuries. Christians don’t feel sorry for people who are in a “lower class”. We understand that that’s not what it’s all about.
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Kathy, you sound so pious, it almost makes me want to believe you. Fortunately, my good sense kicks in.
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Brandon, looks like you’ve caught up on your replies today – and your beard looks fuller 🙂 Lots of good discussions here today and lots to think about.
I guess I’ll start by backing up my comparison between hell and other difficult passages. You wrote:
Surely you are also aware of the passages that speak of eternal torment. The majority of Christians believe in hell over annihilationism. So one has to ask why these passages would be allowed in – I mean wouldn’t your deity be aware that it was all going to get misinterpreted? Torturing someone infinitely for finite crimes is repulsive and seemingly unjust – wouldn’t your deity be concerned about repulsing people away from the bible and appearing unjust?
Now I would like to try and understand this position you’ve taken on infants being able to align themselves with the creator deity at the time they are able to first feel pain. Right now the idea seems a bit crazy to me, but maybe that’s because I’m not really sure what you’ve meant by the statement “aligning with God’s purpose”. How can a baby whether in the womb or out have any kind of thoughts about a deity? If it feels pain (like when trying to squeeze out of an almost too small passage) won’t the only response (ouch!) be the one that it has been designed or evolved to have? The baby usually comes out crying (unless it can’t breath due to a wrapped cord) because that is it’s natural response. I can’t imagine that it would be able to think “holy crap this hurts I must be in a godless universe” or “holy crap this hurts but whoever invented this situation has the right to do so”.
Here’s what I think the bigger issue is: Lack of clear purpose to this life in a universe made by a creator. Any one of us could have been a stillborn or a miscarriage. According to your theory we could have been judged then. I’m assuming you think that the judgment at that stage would be the same as the judgment at any stage. So, under this worldview, what’s the point of living out all of these lives?
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@ Kathy
“Those Nordic countries might appear to have the “answer” but their policies will fail in the end.. the govt. cannot run or sustain an economy and be the caretakers of society. It has never worked in the past and there’s no reason to believe that it’ll suddenly work now. Taxation is always the “answer” to the solve the problems in that type of govt. and there’s a limit to that.. and it’s at that point that it fails to work.. leaving EVERYONE, except the rich liberal elite of course, much much worse off than anything a free market has ever seen.”
Wow, didn’t know you’re an economic and social policy expert now.
I would listen to you because of your great education from which college? or bible college?
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Powell.. if you disagree, just present your counter argument.. this is a blog.. about “finding truth”. Please feel free to engage in the debate.
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Hey Arkenaten,
You’ve said this several times before, “The Pentateuch is fiction and thus to continue in a frame of mind that it has any basis in historical fact is utterly ridiculous.” And I always mean to ask you, do you have any links to support this?
Everything I’ve heard about the first five books is always lead off with the “Probably.” Do you have something more concrete?
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@kathy
Not all opinions are the same Kathy, and if I found you honestly trying to “find truth” or be objective I would have already done so.
Haven’t you realized? The number of people actually engaging you is actually dwindling down. Feel free to think that you have out debated us while the most of us simply regard talking to you as playing chess with a pigeon – it simply push all the pieces away and walk on the board as though it won.
So what is left perhaps would just be childish insults lol – and tbh just like arch said – it’s rather mindless fun jab.
Case in point – I’m gonna find it a bit difficult to discuss the finer points of macro economics with someone who never even graduate from high sch (if st paulie is to be believed) – boom
This is not meant as an insult to those who never had formal education though – I have many good friends who don’t, and we discuss politics, religion and philosophy. However, none of them exhibit the same snobbishness and cocksureness when talking unlike you. Humility babe, will serve you well.
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Hi Victoria, just catching up 🙂
The “painted” bright red colors are believed to serve as a warning to potential predators like you. 😉
The question though, is why do they have warning signs at all? 😉
Welcome back, and I wish you the best on your new journey.
Thanks! hope your week is off to a good start
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Hey Ryan, I hope things are faring well for you. Still liking the new place?
The question though, is why do they have warning signs at all? 😉
Evolution? Females have brightly colored markings. Perhaps it serves more than one purpose — to also attract a mate, much like certain species of male birds sporting brightly colored feathers to attract their mates.
I do understand the point you are trying to make, though. God sure is a busy guy, focused on important things like painting spiders backs. No wonder he’s always MIA. 😀
Good to see you again. Stay cool.
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After reading this paragraph I wrote last night I think I need to explain myself better. First, we need to look at both of these options: This version of a deity we’ve been discussing could either judge us the same way at any point in our lives, or it could judge us differently based on our current “alignment”. If the judgment would always be the same, then the question I asked becomes valid: What is the purpose of living out all of these lives? Our fate would be the same whether we die at 90 years or only 9 minutes. On the flip side, we would be judged based on our current alignment to the deity and I’m wondering, Brandon, if you think this scenario would be unfair? Our fate would be determined based on the timing of our death (which we are usually not in control of). Brandon, what if you had died in a car accident during your time as an atheist? Would you have been annihilated?
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kathy,
if the humble southern. god fearing states don’t care as much about money, then why are they the primary ones who complain about giving money to others while the richer, more prideful states are primarily the ones who argue for giving people money, like welfare for example?
Did you see where someone finally answered your question about which religion had the most credentials? Zoroasterism. Did you respond to it?
and really, religious and non-religious can both be loving, giving, humble people just like they can both be the opposite as well. I have yet to see one specific group who out “goods” another.
– the bible tells you to trust in god and not man.
– the bible was written by men who said god told them to write something
– according to the bible, you shouldn’t trust the bible since it came from man.
I still do not understand how you argue so much for a religion that is based solely on the claims of men.
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kathy/brandon/believers,
do you think that terms like “justice,” “mercy,” “love,” “fairness,” etc are terms that are easily understood, or do you think these terms are vague and difficult to define and understand?
I ask, because we see the bible use these terms to define god, but when we are told that god commanded genocide, that he killed david’s baby for david’s sin, that he would appear to some but then hide from many others, believers often then seem to suggest that we may not fully understand those terms.
and the next question is, how do you know whether you actually understand something in the bible or not? what’s literal vs figurative? what’s allegory and what’s literal truth? what was added or amended and what did god actually want to be preserved? what are the big points and what are the little ones, and so on?
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Brandon, this paragraph you wrote really helps me see where you’re coming from. I’m going to refrain from pointing out the things I disagree with. I can respect your decision to rely on other methods rather than just reasoning/arguments. Do you feel that faith is equivalent with hope? or is it more of a trust in your gut instincts? For me, using either of these methods, if I try to imagine that a deity exists and created our universe – I find myself hoping it is a better one than the one described in the bible.
We’ve been discussing the genocide commands for a while, maybe we could move to something I find even more troubling. Brandon – what are your thoughts on the passages where Yahweh punishes someone other than the one who committed the crime being punished for? These include: David’s baby being killed for David’s sin, Egyptian firstborns being killed for their pharaoh’s stubbornness and 70,000 men being killed for David taking a census. Doesn’t this look more like the way humans would think rather than a perfect divine judge?
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“What if this guy, Jesus really did resurrect? Is that any less probable than the fact that I exist here?”
yes, it is very much, less probable.
look around you. We can see many people in existence. out of all those people in existence, how many have you witnessed resurrect?
how many virgins have you seen give birth?
so, as it turns out, the probability of existence and the probability of resurrection are not at all the same or comparable.
we may as well ask, “since it is a fact that i exist, why couldn’t it be a fact that i am god?” just making comparisons or strange ratios does not make them valid.
if one were to believe in Christianity because they find it appealing and comforting, then cool; but it’s no more cool than anyone believing in their other religion for same reasons.
“could be,” and “what if” can be asked forever about anything. It could be that the bible is just a bunch of garbage horded by men. What if the god of the bible is just as imaginary as zeus seeing as how the invisible and the imaginary really do look very similar?
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“and really, religious and non-religious can both be loving, giving, humble people just like they can both be the opposite as well. I have yet to see one specific group who out “goods” another.”
Perhaps this is true. I know of a lot of caring Christians, but they usually always give the credit to their god. Any good they do is because of god. Any bad they do is became of them. So when they see other people doing good they don’t see the good in humanity, and that is why I take issue with fundamentalism.
I can speak for myself that when I left Christianity, I became a better person. I no longer saw humanity as evil or depraved. As the gentleman in this video states around the 3 minute marker, I believe in humanity and human rights.
If you haven’t see the video yet, this is an excerpt from the documentary series “The Norden”. American pastor Marty McLain, an evangelical from Georgia, visits the secular Nordic countries. I really love the part where he’s interviewing the clergy, and I think that they have a very positive take on their faith. Love and Unity. The evangelical pastor appears to be stunned that they would be inclusive and embrace diversity without judgement. If you’re interested in the full documentary, it’s listed in the “more” section below the except video on YT.
I doubt religion or belief in god will ever be eradicated, but I hope it becomes less toxic (globally) and promotes love and unity, as seen in peaceful Nordic countries.
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“what are your thoughts on the passages where Yahweh punishes someone other than the one who committed the crime being punished for? These include: David’s baby being killed for David’s sin, Egyptian firstborns being killed for their pharaoh’s stubbornness and 70,000 men being killed for David taking a census. Doesn’t this look more like the way humans would think rather than a perfect divine judge?” – dave
yes, and if we were to read about a person doing these things, would we think to ourselves, “now that was a wise and merciful and just individual?”
I think we’d view such a person with disgust and contempt. Look at ISIS – they’re basically doing what Israel was commanded to do, yet no one thinks they’re okay or should be left alone. we view them with horror and define them with words like “evil,” “crazy” and “reprehensible.”
really, if we just take a step back and really look at it all….
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Neuro, i see your point. I think most believers pick and choose much of what they follow and also how the understand the bible. true devotees I think constantly try to seek out a better understanding, at least I did.
I began to alter my interpretations of the bible based on my understanding – I know this sounds confusing, but i would have certain things that became benchmarks and absolutes in my mind, like Love, the greatest commandment, for example.
To truly love as god would want, one would eventually have to love sincerely and do right because god wanted it, but also because it was right and because you loved.
while i do think there are those christians that are the way you describe, I think there are also those christians who genuinely love and help others, even if that christian does not agree with the other person’s lifestyle.
and to be fair, surely there are non-religious jerks, who can be selfish and cruel, in the world too.
people are people afterall.
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