This is reality in a universe without God: there is no hope; there is no purpose. It reminds me of T.S. Eliot’s haunting lines:
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but a whimper.What is true of mankind as a whole is true of each of us individually: we are here to no purpose. If there is no God, then our life is not fundamentally different from that of a dog.
— William Lane Craig
I heard this quote recently, and I immediately thought, it’s also not fundamentally different from that of a god. If God is the “uncaused first cause,” then his life has no higher purpose. There is no “reason” for him to exist. In fact, when you really get down to it, the best reason for God to exist is to explain our own existence. Doesn’t that minimize his importance when you look at it that way? So many of the arguments for God really come down to saying:
We’re so magnificent and complex, we simply can’t be an accident! There must be some reason for our being here! So if we exist, God must exist.
Talk about arrogance! We think so highly of ourselves that we insist the Universe was created for us. But this insistence creates an interesting problem. It claims that we’re so amazing, we deserve to have a higher power interested in us. But this higher power doesn’t deserve the same thing?
If our lives are empty and meaningless without God, what does it say about God’s existence? Wouldn’t his be just as meaningless and empty?
On the other hand, if we say his existence isn’t meaningless because he infuses it with his own meaning and purpose, why couldn’t that same thing be true of us? Instead of having a purpose given to us, we make our own.
Matt Dillahunty of The Atheist Experience answered the issue this way:
You know, to put it simply, I guess this whole line of argument really just seems like wishful thinking to me. Am I missing something? Do you think the “higher purpose” argument is convincing to many people?
Finding Truth 
Why do you imagine that a “common term” for something must exist before the thing itself can exist?
I suppose under this line of thinking there was no such thing as gravity until human beings were able to come up with a common term for it… 🙂
(but I’m curious, do you regard everyone with a different understanding of the world than your own as being deserving of pharmaceutical incapacitation, or just the ones whose mental fallacies involve a supreme being whose moral precepts conflict with your own…?)
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“Why do you imagine that a ‘common term’ for something must exist before the thing itself can exist?” – I need proof of existence before I can generate much of an interest ion it, a common term generally follows.
“(but I’m curious, do you regard everyone with a different understanding of the world than your own as being deserving of pharmaceutical incapacitation, or just the ones whose mental fallacies involve a supreme being whose moral precepts conflict with your own…?)” – just the ones whose mental fallacies involve a supreme being, regardless of it’s moral precepts.
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It appears that truth&fiction is only speaking to arch. Hmm..
What kind of strange magic are you using Arch?
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“What kind of strange magic are you using Arch?”
When magic enters the equation, reason exists in disgust.
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Ah.. it all makes sense now…
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Feel free to quote me if you like —
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“I need proof of existence” – well, there is now very good evidence for how a solar system with planets is formed. I’m really blown away by this photo. A perfect example of science in action. First, the theories and computer simulations and now, visual confirmation.
http://www.wired.com/2014/11/alma-planetary-formation/
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yes, stranger than fiction, I can imagine hat many things that we now know would have been beyond the comprehension of ancient man, and that he would likely have thought them miracles or magical.
But this doesn’t prove that magic or miracles exist, in fact it really points to the opposite.
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“But this doesn’t prove that magic or miracles exist, in fact it really points to the opposite.”
Exactly, William! I’ve said it before, the supernatural is merely the natural, unexplained – people saw events, eclipses, etc., that they couldn’t explain, and these became “miracles.” Add to that blatant fabrications – global flood, Red Sea parting, pillars of fire and dust, and voila, a god is born!
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and don’t forget, why should gawd allow everyone on earth to become an angel/human hybrid except for noah and his bratty children before he decided to do something about. that’s not love.
why have a “chosen people” and consider the rest disposable trash? that is not love, that’s bullshit.
Face it you ignorant believers, it’s all bullshit and you know it,
you’re all just afraid of dying, so you fabricate truths to make the fairy tale seem real.
fuck you all, assholes, believe if you want, but dont’ expect anyone else to give a shit about it. we don’t fucking have to. it doesn’t apply to us.
your relationship with jesus is your problem, not ours.
I’m fucking sick of you phony bullshit Christians and I’m ready to start giving those of you thinking that the rest of us are to tow the line for your fantasies “HELL ON EARTH”.
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Good point William.
Stranger, you wrote:
I can conceive that it is very possible that there are many more mysteries of reality that are yet to be discovered. These are unknown phenomena, just like quantum mechanics used to be unknown. This is very different from “magic” or “miracles” which I take to mean that there are invisible agents at work behind the scenes. I see this as jumping to a conclusion. It may be fun or comforting to believe in invisible beings, but it’s not something that can currently be supported scientifically.
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…and, just to reiterate, many things that were once thought to be the direct hand of god like, hurricanes, lightning, earthquakes, rainbows, plant orbits, etc, have all been found to have very physical and natural explanations – hence no one now says, “god creates the lightning when he’s angry” or anything like that.
I would imagine that most other things that are currently unexplained, will be found to have explanations that are also physical and natural.
should arch be reposting everyone’s comments to stranger than fiction so the he’ll respond to them?
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That’s awesome, Dave! I hadn’t seen it yet — thanks for posting!
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Nate. Yeah, it’s really amazing. I’ve seen several CG simulations of this, but to see a real photo is remarkable.
I think it is particularly damning to those holding to a special creation worldview that think God created the earth, sun, moon and stars at the same time. Obviously, there are stars that are both older and younger than our own host star – the same goes for galaxies. Now, thanks to the ALMA telescope, we can see that there are planets out there that are still in the early formation stage. To see that other planets are currently evolving and at the same time think that our own earth was “poofed” into existence would be extreme special pleading.
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there was a city that was growing up fast. Businesses moving in and population growing. As the population grew, the sheriff had been afraid that the crime rate would also grow – but it did not, which was a good sign.
Despite the good fortune, the sheriff was not satisfied and would not be content until the crime rate was zero. The mayor told him that he had set unreasonable expectations, but even so, the sheriff put new measures in play and the crime rate reduced to record lows, although the sought after zero still wasn’t reached.
The sheriff was dismayed and worked feverishly to devise a way to reach a crime rate of zero, something everyone else realized was unattainable.
After trying everything he knew to do, and unable to accept “good enough” he decided to try one last measure. He instructed the city road crews to erect new traffic signs in improper places; stop signs where there was no intersection, interstate speed limit signs in residential areas, etc – he would then wait for the citizens to obey those signs and then pull them over and ticket them.
he pitched this idea to the city counsel but they didn’t understand, “wont this create more law violations…” and, “how will this reduce the crime rate…”
The sheriff replied, “it’s not just about reducing the crime rate, it’s about stopping crime, at any level, and ensuring our citizens know what’s right and what’s wrong.”
“But if you install official signs, then how can you cite the people who obey and follow those signs?”
“because they should know when the signs are legitimate and when they’re not, regardless of who put them there,” the sheriff said.
“But law abiding citizens, who try to do what’s right, typically follow the signs. what sense does it make to install a sign, that you know people will obey and follow, and then punish them for obeying and following a sign you put in their path?”
– – –
the signs for evolution, for the universe, and for history and archaeology were all put there by god, if god were real. Does it make sense for god to punish people for following those signs? Many in the religious world do not only think it makes sense, they think it’s just and merciful.
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Great analogy William! I think you just out-Arked Ark, though why anyone would want to do that, I’ve no idea —
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one of life’s mysteries.
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Yes William, you out did yourself here. Great analogy !
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Impressive… most impressive.
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Here’s three really broad questions I’ve been thinking about
Where does our ability to reason come from?
Where does our self awareness come from?
Are we actually more self aware than other creatures on this planet?
I’d like to read people’s thoughts on this 🙂
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Also, what separates humans from animals?
Why is it that we are the only creatures on this planet that document other lifeforms?
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Hi portal, I will attempt to answer some of your questions.
what separates humans from animals?
Do you mean to suggest we are plants? Last I checked we were animals.
Why must it come from somewhere? A survey of the human family gives a result of a great majority that are unable to reason.
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Hey Makagutu,
Thanks for taking the time to respond
If humanity are just animals, then why are humans the only forms of life on this planet (and as far as we know this universe) that have built bridges out of (human engineered) material, printed words, built factories, written laws, and painted landscapes that reflect and draw on the natural world they see.
What other life form do this?
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And may I add, what animals out there reword their responses –
I find it strange that we are a exception to every other animal that humanity has collected/domesticated/bred and classified.
What other life forms* do this?
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Hey Ryan,
Something that really stands out to me is language. I think that really sets us apart and paved the way for a lot of things. Think about what our existence would be like if we did not have language. What would our thoughts consist of if there were no words to think with?
Aside from our ability for higher reasoning we share a lot in common with animals. There are animals that are capable of building things (beavers, birds). There are animals that work together (bees, termites, ants). There are animals that are capable of expressing emotions (dogs, monkeys). There are animals that use names for each other (dolphins).
I think a lot of animals are just as self-aware as we are. Where does this self-awareness come from? That is the harder question to answer. If I had to go out on a limb and take a guess – I think our self awareness is a bit of an illusion of sorts. Kind of like how a table looks like a hard surface, but at the atomic level you could sail right through it, I think our thoughts are lots of little brain synapses / neural activity that only become thoughts when they are combined by the trillions. I think a lot can be learned by looking at the difference between being awake and asleep. I’m no expert on this, so I’ll stop there.
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