First of all, sorry for the lack of posts latey. Just been busy with life — you know how that goes. I have a couple of ideas rattling around in my head right now, so I’ll hopefully shake one of them out into a blog post soon.
In the meantime, I wanted to post this article that a friend pointed me toward today. Many of you probably don’t know, but last week, a federal judge in Mobile, Alabama struck down a state ban on gay marriage, which made us the 37th state to legalize gay marriage. It was great news! However, to no one’s surprise, there’s been a huge outcry about it, and many of the state politicians are pushing hard against it. This article brilliantly captures the way I feel about it:
Finding Truth 
nate, sorry i keep chasing these tangents, but they’re all so interesting to me, but the death penalty…
yes, I agree, there have been far too many put to death or sentenced to death only to find out that they were innocent. What if, though, there was absolutely no doubt, like where there were video evidence from multiple witnesses (phones, surveillance, cameras, etc), DNA evidence, you know, iron clad.
and say this evidence proved that the individual performed several horrible acts, like rape, murder, torture – vile stuff. I’d be down with putting him/her down. I dont think they could be trusted in society ever again and to me, have lost their use in society. I wouldn’t be for torturing anyone, but a quick and event-less execution.
So I guess I’m not opposed to the idea, but i’d want irrefutable evidence for very heinous actions.
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nan, i appreciate you and value your input on any subject.
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Awwww gee … Thanks William.
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N℮üґ☼N☮☂℮ṧ is correct,
god does not belong on our money or in our silly little national anthems or pledges of allegiance or official state books.
it is unconstitutional.
jeezzuuusss occasionally appears on a grilled cheese sandwich, but he never appears in the constitution.
the “Christian nation” meme is so prevalent in the south.
(I’m in Florida, the craziest of the crazy).
at least now in florida gays can marry, but they did everything they could to stop it.
I’m going to get married as many times as I can. to whomever will have me.
and divorce, divorce, divorce.
I’m going to force Christian bakeries and Christian wedding photographers to provide me services or it’s Judge Judy time for them..
but I refuse to have an abortion.
🙂
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“I dont think they could be trusted in society ever again and to me, have lost their use in society. I wouldn’t be for torturing anyone, but a quick and event-less execution.”</cite?
William, would you put the mentally disabled down because they have lost or never were useful to society? Elderly on disability?
I agree that people like this should be kept away from harming society, but I also believe that people like this are mentally disabled — as the brain research shows. It's just that their disability or damage is affecting another part of their brain associated with the ability to have empathy and morally reason.
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hmmmmm….
N℮üґ☼N☮☂℮ṧ,
I can’t tell you how many times in my life I’ve been told I should be “put to death” because I am gay.
even my own “christian” brother told me on xmas eve one year in front of my entire family:, “if I ever have any queer children I’m going to take them outside and shoot them in the head”
as William said in an earlier comment:
“But admittedly, being raised a christian, and in a time where most homosexuals remained in the closet for fear of persecution, I initially viewed them as detestable and wicked, like Goliath or the monsters in the dark.
sadly, a great number of people still feel that way.
I still hear it everyday, mainly from christians.
it’s what makes me so “in your face”,
I’m more than happy to give them the abomination with the reprobate mind.
it scares them,
but it’s fun for me.
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It had to be tough dealing with that kind of discrimination. I admire people like you who were brave enough to be themselves, regardless of what the jackasses do. I’m glad the tide’s slowly, but finally turning your way. 🙂
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Neuro, I see what you’re saying. It is also easy for me to condemn to death a faceless person whom i do not know beyond the horrors for which they may be found guilty.
I would certainly not be opposed to sparing one’s life for any reason, but I do not understand why we’d be fine to let a mother decide to terminate a human life that depends on her in the most vulnerable way, but then say that we’re vehemently opposed to the executions of those who have committed unspeakable horrors to other people.
It seems like a contradiction to me.
We can sympathize with the cannibal rapist and spare his life, making the victims endure the knowledge that the monster in their lives and is being protected, etc, etc, but a 19 year old woman is allowed to terminate her child (as long as it’s unborn) for any reason?
And a person who can kill and mutilate another human without remorse is a terrifying thing. What can be done for such a person? Even if they could be “fixed” who’d trust them? And if you dont know that raping a 12 year old boy after you’ve killed him is wrong, then you dont have a place in society.
the elderly? are they inflicting absolute and undeniable terrors on others? if so, then yes, I’d sign for their execution.
But that’s what i’m talking about, and I thought I was fairly clear there. People who commit heinous acts, without remorse, and who seem to enjoy the pain and suffering of others. I would not be for the death penalty for ole thing.
But if you’re for abortion of any kind, for any reason, then why not the elderly too, or toddlers and infants? I realize this isn’t really a fare question, i just think these questions make more sense alongside abortion than they do capital punishment.
But again, let me say that while i have strong opinions on these topics, I do not wield them aggressively and I understand that I may be incorrect (although i don’t think I am) and I am content with differing opinions on these and can understand to some degree why there are differing opinions.
paul, i’m sorry for the hardships and rudeness you’ve endured. I must admit that I’ve made many off color remarks about homosexuals in the past, and it’s something i feel terrible about now. I can say, and it’s likely little consolation, that I have never mistreated a homosexual for being a homosexual. It was meeting some or realizing that people i knew were actually homosexuals that awakened me to the fact that people are people. sorry.
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Paul, I can’t fully comprehend the hurt, harm, and betrayal you’ve experienced in your lifetime. While there are still people with the brain of a slimy slug tying to keep the waters muddied, you and the LGBT community should be very proud of the progress you’ve made. You’re exceptionally well organized, strong and most of us are standing by your side. 🙂
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William,
I think the difference between a mother getting an abortion and a murderer, is that the fetus’s life depends completely on the mother until its birth.
Let’s say a 17 year old girl finds out she’s pregnant, and it’s still very early on. She may not view that fetus as a baby yet. Obviously, there’s a lot of development that must take place before a child is viable, so this girl may just view it as the potential for a child. And really, until higher form brain functions develop, it’s hard to fault her for that view.
So now she has some options. She can have the baby and keep it, which will dramatically change the arc of her life. Maybe that’s the best case scenario, and maybe she should just suck it up and face all the consequences that come with having a child. But we don’t know her family situation, economic situation, etc.
She could also have the baby and give it up for adoption. Of course, that brings on the same physical discomforts and risks associated with carrying a pregnancy to full term. There’s also the possibility that she misses out on school or work, depending on her circumstances. There’s the social stigma. And there’s also the pain of giving up a child to someone else.
Finally, she could choose to abort the pregnancy. This is a really difficult decision, since it dictates that potential for a child will never be a child at all. But it would leave the rest of her life intact.
In short, there’s no easy decision here — every path is a bad one. It’s just a matter of picking the least worst.
But I think one of the keys is to realize that not everyone views a fetus as a child. You and I don’t think it’s murder when millions of sperm die each time a man ejaculates. Nor do we think it’s murder when a woman has her period. However, some religious people do seem to view it that way, since they condemn any form of birth control. I don’t think it’s murder to take the morning after pill, because a fertilized egg is still just a cell. And as it progresses to blastocyst, then to zygote, and to fetus, different reasonable people disagree over which phase constitutes “human life” and which does not.
I used to think that if a woman was okay with having an abortion, she should be okay with giving a baby up for adoption. But I don’t think everyone views it that way. If a woman doesn’t view the fetus as an actual child yet, it might actually be harder for her to give up a baby for adoption than to have an abortion.
It’s just a really, really complicated issue.
It’s hard for me to imagine a circumstance under which I would think abortion is the right decision, unless the life of the mother was at very high risk. But I also don’t feel that I can make that decision for everyone, just as I don’t want Catholics determining whether or not I can use birth control.
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William, I appreciate your honesty, and I can understand your opinion about abortion. But what I also understand that most who oppose abortion simply don’t see the bigger picture. And I will also say that most who want justice by death also don’t see the bigger picture.. For example, every 5 seconds a child dies from starvation.
You have to keep in mind that abortion will never go away. It’s been practiced throughout history. We have two choices. Safe or unsafe abortions. The World Heath Organization states:
Adding to the bigger picture, children who can’t be properly taken care of will most often succumb to much suffering, brain atrophy, and have a significant chance of pons dysfunction, causing attachment disorders, if brought to full term and then placed in orphanages.
We are not prepared to provide millions of well staffed orphanages throughout the world that will give these children the necessary nurture they will need so that their brain will develop normally. Simply providing them food and shelter will not provide proper brain development.
What’s more humane? Here’s what happened when the leader of one country banned contraceptives and abortion:
The result of this forced-birth dictator was over population, a depletion of resources, starvation, and economic collapse.
Parent couldn’t provide the necessary care for their children. Most of these children had developed an attachment disorder. “Behaviors observed include poor peer relationships, hyper vigilance, anxiety, destruction to self or others, superficially engaging phoniness, indiscriminate affection with strangers, extreme measures to gain and exert control, lying, extreme anger, clinginess, manipulation, violence, poor impulse control, lack of conscience, poor causal thinking, abnormal eating patterns, lack of eye contact except when lying, cruelty to animals, and learning delays or disabilities.”
What’s more humane? This isn’t even addressing a women’s right over her own body, which Nan has already shared with you. Women know how many children they can safely raise. Spontaneous abortions occur far more often but rarely is this addressed.
Anyway, William, this is definitely OT. In closing, I will state that I am well read on the subject, and could share massive amounts of research showing the social ills, not to mention enormous suffering, when women are forced to go full term and give birth.
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Nate,
I get what you’re saying. I’m not condemning anyone. My main point was that I can also sympathize with those who oppose abortion, even though I don’t agree with them 100% on all that they stand for or in how they oppose a different view. I agree that it is complex and not cut and dry, but then isn’t capital punishment too, yet you don’t seem to see leeway there?
I should apologize in advance for the length of this, it’s just hard to say in few words.
And I realize that at the very least our judicial system needs reform, so I am not speaking on the specifics.
And I can get abortion when it’s preserving the life and health of the mother, as I have stated. I understand the idea behind aborting an unborn human before it’s a child or baby or whatever we may call it when it’s a young girl who may miss out on school or have to endure ridicule or a difficult in raising a baby by herself when she is without the means to do so. But while I can comprehend why some may make that choice for those reasons, doesn’t mean I agree that they are good reasons. I just don’t view them that harshly when there is some semblance of sense behind it .
A mother with an infant could make the same argument, though. Maybe she tried to preserve its life and didn’t abort, but it’s just not working out. And maybe she tried to adopt it out, but there’s no takers and it’s so difficult to do it on her own, etc, etc, etc. It’s her baby, why cant she have a choice now?
I think we’re all happy to live in a society that protects our lives and those of our children. Maybe a fetus isn’t a child. Dying sperm and dying eggs cant be prevented, for one. It’s gonna happen whether I jack off into a sock or not, and eggs are gonna get wasted whether a woman aborts or not. Plus, a sperm will never mature into a human life without an egg, and an egg will never mature into a human life without a sperm, so I think it’s pretty easy to understand why some believe that life begins when a sperm enters the egg, but I am not a biologist, so I can’t say for certain.
Whether fetus, or baby, or zygote or teen or adult, I think we’re still dealing with a human. I have no doubt it’s easier to terminate that life when you don’t see it, or don’t put a face to it – just like it’s easier for me to say I’m fine with executions when I don’t personally know the murderer or serial rapist cannibal.
It’s not easy, but it’s not easy for either side. I can sympathize. I would not lynch a young girl for making what was no doubt a very tough decision, and I would not mistreat her, but I still don’t agree with the decision. And I wouldn’t lynch an old man for trying to pass any law he could to prevent the death of an unborn human that cannot speak for its own defense… especially when he’s doing so against people who condemn the death penalty for repeat and horrifically brutal violent offenders.
And if I willingly do something that has a very likely effect, then I must be prepared to deal with that. Personally, and you may feel differently, but if I am willingly having sex, and then a pregnancy ensues, I feel like it’s pretty cheap to terminate the resulting life because it would just be too much trouble to deal with. I realize this statement will aggravate some, but I don’t even mean this as a catchall for every abortion – I do not.
And neuro, I may not see all of the big picture, but saying that children die anyways doesn’t clear it up. Sure abortions will always happen – just like murder, theft, child abuse and rape. I do not lose sleep over abortion and I do not lose sleep over starving children in china and I sleep just fine whether there is capital punishment or not – really.
I am all for making things safer. But again, if you consider the other side, aren’t they trying to make things safer for the unborn human? I get that many of them also make things unsafe for the woman, those who would want to prohibit a woman from aborting even when her life were at risk, and so on. I do not get that – but just like I sympathize and still not agree with the young pregnant girl, I can still do the same for the harshest of pro-lifers.
I agree with contraception, etc, and I also think people should still exercise a little more self control too.
I don’t know what will solve all the world’s problems and I tend to think that they won’t ever be solved completely. It’s like my laundry though; I wash and I wash but I never run out of dirty clothes. Should I throw my hands up and say “what’s the point?” or , “I guess I’ll just have to wear dirty clothes?” I think it’s just the nature of work, there will always be plenty to go around. Even if abortion will always be around, that fact doesn’t suddenly make it okay, or else every crime would be overlooked.
And I can’t speak for orphans or fetuses, but for myself, I’d rather be alive in an overcrowded shelf that killed and thrown in the trash.
Does understanding a psychopath’s brain malfunctions make him any less dangerous? Does it undo the terrors he may have done? I don’t mind if we, as a society, decide to eliminate capital punishment all together, but I also do not mind if it stays, although I’d like it to be reformed if it does.
You can say what you like, but violence is sometimes necessary and can be eaffective.
My opinions on these matters are not militant. I just think I see some level of hypocrisy. I mean, jails are overcrowded too, but who’s using that as a justification for the death penalty among the loudest pro-choicers?
And before anyone says that the opposite is true, let me go ahead say that I disagree. A new human life and an axe murder; Who’s more innocent and who’s more guilty? Who’s more worthy of death and who’s more worthy of life? But, as has been pointed out, death happens, so I don’t lose sleep over it. I have my opinions on them and I believe they have been formed carefully with thoughtful consideration. From my perspective many people have lost sight of the “big picture” and I would disagree that it is me.
And neuro, while the issues relate to one another, they are separate issues; child welfare and abortion. It’s a poor excuse to write abortion off as justified by saying that in some situations if a child is not aborted then they’ll have a bad life. Is that why all abortions happen? To save a mother’s life and to prevent the children from being abused after they’re born?
You know, some people are killed for good reasons, so maybe we should justify all killings? I don’t think this is looking at the big picture.
For arguments sake, let’s just say that abortion for the life of the mother and to prevent gross over population and child endangerment are all justified. Would you or nan or nate be content to allow a law to only stop the abortions for those who routinely have consensual sex, and have the financial means and family support to raise a child, but just didn’t want the hassle of having to deal with dirty diapers or miss out of sewing her wild oats?
I just do not see how such an instance is any better than the anthony chick who killed her little girl or in anyone else who kills their children in the bathtub.
And a woman should be allowed to do whatever she wants to or with her body, as long as it doesn’t infringe on the rights, freedom or welfare of another – just like with anything else. I’m not talking about that, I’m talking about whether anyone should have the right to kill another human life for any ole reason.
Let me reiterate that I can sympathize with many on this and that I do not advocate the harm of any for making difficult decisions. I realize they are very difficult, and they are complex for both sides.
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“if you consider the other side, aren’t they trying to make things safer for the unborn human?”
You nailed it. It’s about the unborn. Once they are born……you get my point. The unborn has more value than the born. Look around you.
Even in the U.S., there is a strong movement to remove or greatly de-fund the social safety net that would provide for these children.
“And I can’t speak for orphans or fetuses, but for myself, I’d rather be alive in an overcrowded shelf that killed and thrown in the trash.”
In essence, that’s really what it boils down to with many. It is about you, how you feel, not the unborn. You are empathizing, seeing yourself in them.
“A new human life and an axe murder; Who’s more innocent and who’s more guilty?”
That axe murder could have been, and mostly likely was a victim of a brain injury, severe mental illness, a neurological disorder, or pon dysfunction from neglect or damage to the brain stem (common), and there’s a good chance this occurred when he/she was a child. Many times these anti-social symptoms don’t manifest for years even decades.
From large numbers of such scans, murderers had a common pattern of functional loss in the orbital and ventromedial cortex of the frontal lobe, the anterior-medial temporal lobe especially in the amygdala, and adjacent limbic cortices such as the anterior cingulated cortex.
Do you think that we can better address this problem through education and prevention or by the barbaric methods some states (usually the most religious) are currently using?
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Neuro,
yes, child hunger and child abuse, etc are huge issues. Are you saying that abortion is justifiable because it may limit the number of born children that are harmed?
And yes, I try to relate to others and fetuses by using empathy. Do you have a better way? and how do you try to relate to the fetus, or do you avoid doing so, that helps you deem abortion justifiable?
I can imagine that those who commit very terrible actions likely have something very wrong with them, whether it be by injury or something else. I feel bad for them. My willingness to let them die for committing atrocities isn’t solely for punishment, but for the extermination and removal of a real threat. and again, i am not for it in any ole case, but even if severe brain damage were the leading cause, I dont think that changes their potential for additional horror.
I do think that better education and prevention are needed and welcome, but i think we can do both. Improve our education and prevention, and for those who still rape and kill whom ever and were their faces as hats, we execute.
and I noticed when commenting on the axe murderer, you didn’t say a word about a fetus. Why? in your mind, it is more justifiable to execute the fetus than the axe murderer?
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This is the key right here. It’s not about trying to convince one another of our particular take on the subject, it’s just understanding that different people come to different conclusions. That’s why I have the position of keeping abortions safe and legal — it should be up to individuals to decide how to navigate that very tricky situation.
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Neither should be executed. The axe murderer, while a danger to society, can likely be dealt with in another manner that won’t terminate his life; it might even help lead to some rehabilitation.
The fetus can’t survive without the mother’s body. If we remove all emotion from the situation, the fetus is basically a parasite. We don’t want the fetus to die, but is it right for society to decide what to do with the mother’s body? How can that be anyone’s decision but hers? Hopefully, there’s a compromise that can be reached and she’ll carry it to term. But in cases where she’s unwilling to do so, what do we do?
The axe murderer’s life or death, on the other hand, doesn’t affect anyone else’s. Whether he’s alive or dead, it can’t bring back the person he murdered, nor does it materially effect anyone else’s life.
And again, some people don’t even concede that a fetus should be fully considered human life yet, especially in the very early stages.
It’s just a really complex issue.
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“Why? in your mind, it is more justifiable to execute the fetus than the axe murderer?”
William, I already explained, though not comprehensively, why abortion can be more humane. Prevention is the best way to go, by far, but pro-birthers are doing their damndest to interfere with that, too. Abortion drops dramatically with the implementation of comprehensive sex education in schools and universal access to ALL birth control.
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William, I “hear” you. I understand where you’re coming from. But at the same time, I can’t in any way see how you can (not that you are) dismiss the image that Victoria posted. What is more humane? To abort a child that a woman knowingly is unable to care for … or allow that child to be born and end up as this one?
As I previously stated, abortion is NOT an issue that should be decided by ANYONE other than the woman. It really doesn’t matter what you or I or any other person thinks. And this is what makes my blood boil. If a woman does not believe in abortion, then fine. Go forward with the pregnancy and deal with the consequences. But don’t tell me or any other woman that I must do the same. It is a PERSONAL decision … not one that is made by other people.
BTW, sometime back I wrote a post about a woman who killed her babies and I asked this question — was it more humane (since apparently she didn’t want them) to have killed them as (undisputed) living, breathing human children … or to have aborted them as (arguably human) zygotes?
And finally, as Victoria says, if the pro-lifers want to end abortion, then why don’t they champion the sexual education of young girls and boys and support the access to birth control?
As for the death penalty. I really have mixed feelings on this. It’s difficult for me to think about one human being torturing and killing another and then allowing that person to continue his/her life. I do support rehabilitation, but unfortunately, it’s not practiced to any degree — and further, it doesn’t work on everybody because, as Victoria has suggested, individual brain chemistry. I think the whole idea behind the death penalty is our culture feels “someone” should be made to pay for wrongs that are afflicted on us or our loved ones. And unfortunately, this outlook isn’t going to change anytime soon.
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“This is the key right here. It’s not about trying to convince one another of our particular take on the subject, it’s just understanding that different people come to different conclusions. That’s why I have the position of keeping abortions safe and legal — it should be up to individuals to decide how to navigate that very tricky situation.” – nate
I can agree with this, but only in the way that acknowledges I realize it’s necessary to compromise in a peaceful society.
And sure an axe murderer could be dealt with besides executing him/her. Isn’t that true for anyone and even the unborn? If an axe murderer is left alive, there is an effect. We can lock him up and prevent him from others again maybe, and his life wont bring back the lives of those killed, but tax dollars will be spent, and those entrusted to care for him will be in the presence of constant danger and I’m sure I could think of other effects too. But sure, the axe murder doesn’t live in a womb.
And woman’s body argument is just sad to me and only a distraction. Yes, the unborn depends on its host mother while it grows in the womb. Children depend on their mothers once they’re out of the womb, but admitted not quite as much or to the same level. But an unborn human is vastly different from a fingernail or limb.
Are you opposed to charging a murderer with dual homicide if he kills a pregnant woman? Or should the try and find out what the woman thought about her unborn before they bring charges?
And an unborn human is diffidently human and it’s definitely alive. The definitions are easy to look up, but if someone has difficulty in knowing, I do not currently feel like I do. If it’s not human, what is it? if it’s not living, then is it dead like hair or fingernails?
I would not press this, but there have been some states that have tried to make a pregnant woman view an ultrasound before she can have an abortion. Why? For the same reasons a woman who wants an abortion doesn’t want to see it – it looks like a person.
While it is complex, we can make many things more complex than what they are.
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“William, I already explained, though not comprehensively, why abortion can be more humane.” – neuro
in that case I already explained why executing the violently dangerous is also more humane. Cutting them away like a cancer prohibits them from inflicting more harm, and is better than cramming them in underfunded and overcrowded prisons.
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“What is more humane? To abort a child that a woman knowingly is unable to care for … or allow that child to be born and end up as this one?” – nan
If those are the only two options, then like you say, it’s an easy selection – I just don’t think those are the only two options, although they are often presented as being that way.
You do make excellent points on woman’s rights, etc, but I still don’t know. In every other instance we don’t give people that choice with their children. A zygote is human, as long as we’re talking about human zygotes, but it would be better to kill it off that early than to prolong a terrible life only to kill it miserably anyways – just like I think it would be better for a journalist to killed quickly with a bullet while in Syria than to be captured, mistreated and beheaded later. If those were the only two options.
Whether we’re talking about abortion or the death penalty, I think we all agree to some degree on the good and bad of it. I do not align myself with mainstream or prominently vocal views of either topic on either side, just to be clear.
Contraception should be available. It’s a no-brainer.
When people justify abortion, it’s typically by using the “woman’s life” or “that the child is being saved from some cruel existence.” Okay, fine. Let’s allow all those. But that’s not what everyone wants, they want even the privileged, whose lives aren’t in danger to be able to make the choice to end the life that depends on her the most. Easy for me to say since I’m not a woman, and it’s easy to think it’s easy for me since it’s impossible for me to be a woman now.
“Do what she wants with her body,” I feel like it’s a crock. That’s not what’s being talked about, but I think we have to make it about that and we have to turn our eyes from ultrasounds for reasons that would clear this up. Kids are hassles, I get that, I live that. That’s not all they are, but they do reduce one’s freedom. We’re talking about human offspring and life.
And If a woman was trying to kill herself, I’d try to stop her. If she was trying to cut herself, I’d try to stop her. Wouldn’t you, or would you say, “a woman should be free to do what she wants with her own body?”
Abortion is legal, and it’s gonna stay that way. I’m not gonna picket. I’m not gonna throw stones or lose sleep. I’m not gonna treat someone who gets an abortion as a vagrant, but I still don’t buy the excuses. They don’t seem consistent to me.
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China, together with Iran, North Korea, Yemen and the US (the only G7 country to still execute people) carried out the most executions last year.
Capital punishment does not work. There is a wealth of mounting evidence that proves this fact. The death penalty, both in the U.S. and around the world, is discriminatory and is used disproportionately against the poor, minorities and members of racial, ethnic and religious communities.
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except that dead people tend not to hurt anyone any more. And we do executions stupidly. We wait and wait and wait, spend and spend and spend.
If there were a man convicted by indisputable evidence and he was executed the next day for the cost of a rope, then that solves several problems.
But again, I dont mind foregoing executions. I’m fine with eliminating the entire practice, it’s just that in some circumstances i dont object.
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thanks N℮üґ☼N☮☂℮ṧ,
I am proud of the advances that the lgbtq community has made.
we are a strong bunch of cookies and as americans we know “you gotta fight, for your right….to PAAAAAARTY”
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thanks Nate, you know, I really dont’ know any other way to be than myself.
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