Sigh…
So here’s what’s been going on lately. Most of you who read this blog already know that when my wife and I left Christianity, it wrecked most of our family relationships. My wife’s parents and siblings, as well as my own, felt that they could no longer interact with us socially after our deconversion. We were no longer invited to any family functions, and our communication with them all but disappeared. We would speak if it was about religious issues, or if there were logistic issues that needed to be worked out in letting them see our kids, etc.
Over the years, things have gotten a little better, especially with my wife’s parents. Things are by no means back to normal, but at least our infrequent interactions have become more civil and more comfortable. A few weeks ago, I even had a phone conversation with my father that lasted about half an hour and had no references to religion whatsoever. It was nice.
Nevertheless, the awkwardness is still there, just under the surface. And we’re still blacklisted from all the family functions.
Throughout this time, I’ve occasionally reached out to my side of the family with phone calls, letters, facebook messages, etc, in an effort to discuss the issues that divide us. I don’t get much response. I’ve always been puzzled by that, since I know they think I’m completely wrong. If their position is right, why aren’t they willing to discuss it?
In the last five years, I’ve also been sent books and articles and even been asked to speak to certain individuals, and I’ve complied with every request. Why not? How could more information hurt? But when I’ve suggested certain books to them, or written letters, they aren’t read. When I finally realized that my problems with Christianity weren’t going to be resolved, I wrote a 57-page paper to my family and close friends, explaining why I could no longer call myself a Christian. As far as I know, none of them ever read the whole thing. And sure, 57 pages is quite a commitment. But they say this is the most important subject in their lives…
This past week, the topic has started to come back around. A local church kicked off a new series on Monday entitled “Can We Believe the Bible?” It’s being led by an evangelist/professor/apologist that was kind enough to take time to correspond with me for several weeks in the summer of 2010. I’ve never met him in person, but a mutual friend connected us, since he was someone who was knowledgeable about the kinds of questions I was asking. Obviously, we didn’t wind up on the same page.
My wife’s parents invited us to attend the series, but it happens to be at a time that I’m coaching my oldest daughter’s soccer team. So unless we get rained out at some point, there’s no way we can attend. However, we did tell them that if practice is ever cancelled, we’ll go. I also contacted the church and asked if the sermons (if that’s the right word?) will be recorded, and they said that they should be.
Monday night, the weather was fine, so we weren’t able to attend. And so far, the recording isn’t available on their website. However, they do have a recording of Sunday night’s service available, which is entitled “Question & Answer Night.” I just finished listening to it, and that’s where the bulk of my frustration comes from.
It’s essentially a prep for the series that kicked off Monday night. They’re discussing why such a study is important, as well as the kinds of things they plan to cover. What’s so frustrating to me is that I don’t understand the mindset of evangelists like this. I mean, they’ve studied enough to know what the major objections to fundamentalist Christianity are, yet they continue on as if there’s no problem. And when they do talk about atheists and skeptics, they misrepresent our position. I can’t tell if they honestly believe the version they’re peddling, or if they’re purposefully creating straw men.
A couple of times, they mentioned that one of the main reasons people reject the Bible comes down to a preconception that miracles are impossible. “And if you start from that position, then you’ll naturally reject the Bible.” But that’s a load of crap. Most atheists were once theists, so their starting position was one that believed in miracles.
They also mentioned that so many of these secular articles and documentaries “only show one side.” I thought my head was going to explode.
And they referred to the common complaints against the Bible as “the same tired old arguments that have been answered long ago.” It’s just so infuriating. If the congregants had any knowledge of the details of these “tired old arguments,” I doubt they’d unanimously find the “answers” satisfactory. But the danger with a series like this is that it almost works like a vaccination. The members of the congregation are sitting in a safe environment, listening to trusted “experts,” and they’re injected with a watered down strain of an argument. And it’s that watered down version that’s eradicated by the preacher’s message. So whenever the individual encounters the real thing, they think it’s already been dealt with, and the main point of the argument is completely lost on them.
For example, most Christians would be bothered to find out that the texts of the Bible are not as reliable as were always led to believe. Even a beloved story like the woman caught in adultery, where Jesus writes on the ground, we’ve discovered that it was not originally part of the gospel of John. It’s a later addition from some unknown author. To a Christian who’s never heard that before, it’s unthinkable! But if they’ve gone through classes where they’ve been told that skeptics exaggerate the textual issues in the Bible, and that the few changes or uncertainties deal with only very minor things, and that none of the changes affect any doctrinal points about the gospel, then it’s suddenly easier for them to swallow “minor” issues like the insertion of an entire story into the gospel narrative.
Sigh…
I’m going to either attend these sessions, or I’ll watch/listen to them once they’re available online. I may need to keep some blood pressure medication handy, though.
Finding Truth 
Ruth: “I find it hard to be trusting of anybody that blows that much smoke using the King James English.”
NeuroVictoria: LOL
Ammi right though?
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You are indeed.
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I suspect the thing was his reference to the links – I didn’t even bother to look at them, as by that time, I had had all of him I could stand. I just assumed they pointed to some site where you and he had been having discussions, but they may well have referred back to other of Vi’s posts I should have looked, but I spend a half-day each day, just replying to comments, and long before I get to the last one, I’m brain dead.
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I get that, arch. I think those links might have referenced a forum where he had already had the same conversation with another guy who also didn’t buy into Christianity. We didn’t converse there he just wanted me to read their convo. The name of the forum was Testosterone Nation. Are you surprised?
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“The name of the forum was Testosterone Nation. Are you surprised?”
Ruth you crack me up. 😀
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No, I hear that it’s quite the contributor to baldness.
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Ha!
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Oh, and thanks for this, Victoria! Hug received. 🙂
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🙂
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IMO, Dr. Winell was right-on in the part where he “went on to say”.
The thing I find interesting about this whole scenario, Nate, is that they would even invite you and your wife to this “event.” I could somewhat understand it if you were newly deconverted, but from what I gather, it’s been several years. Why in Thor’s name would they think this individual’s message would resonate with you at this point in time?
Having said that, I do remember inviting my unsaved friends and family to such events during my Christian heydays. Of course, they basically ignored me, but I felt better because I had fulfilled what I considered an obligation/command of my faith.
In any case, know that we followers of you and your blog support you 100% in whatever you choose to do.
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Nate, I’ve just got caught up on the comments on this thread. Such diplomatic comments your friends make!
I can’t even imagine what it would be like to be going through what you are experiencing. My heart goes out to you. Knowing me, though, their persistent attitude would be thoroughly pissing me off. . diplomacy be damned . . by now.
You are a good, kind and decent man; a family member to be proud of – isn’t that the most important part?
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From the Unfundamentalist website/blog:
“By way of researching my book I’m OK – You’re Not: The Message We’re Sending Nonbelievers and Why We Should Stop, I posted a notice on Craigslist sites all over the country asking non-Christians to send me any short, personal statement they would like Christians to read.
“Specifically,” I wrote, “I’d like to hear how you feel about being on the receiving end of the efforts of Christian evangelicals to convert you. I want to be very clear that this is not a Christian-bashing book; it’s coming from a place that only means well for everyone. Thanks.”
Within three days I had in my inbox over 300 emails from non-Christians across the country. Reading them was one of the more depressing experiences of my life. I had expected their cumulative sentiment to be one of mostly anger. But if you boiled down to a single feeling what was most often expressed in the nonbelievers’ statements, it would be Why do Christians hate us so much?
Below is a pretty random sample of the statements non-Christians sent me (each of which I used in the book). If you’re a Christian, they make for a mighty saddening read. Or they certainly should, anyway.”
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/unfundamentalistchristians/about-unfundamentalist-christians/
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I feel for you, I really do. I never understood the practice, it just seems so unproductive. I also don’t understand how they can just not look into the objections you have raised to them. When I first heard of your deconversion, the one thing that made me come check out your blog again was that I KNEW YOU. I knew that for you to have given up on christianity there must have been some big reasons worth at the very minium investigating. It baffles me that they never gave serious consideration to your beliefs but want to invite you to this event.
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well said, Matt.
The bible itself says to seek out the truth and to not answer a matter before you’ve heard it out, and lauds the bereans as noble for researching what they could, when they could.
It’s this very type of thing that helped me when I was deconverting. The people who always said that the truth never had anything to hide, began hiding and shutting their ears to these issues. I found their lack of faith disturbing – especially when they claimed to have so much of it.
but theirs wasnt a faith in truth, but a faith in Truth (trademark).
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Thanks guys.
And let me reiterate, while my deconversion was definitely painful, and the subsequent family issues have been as well, I’m actually in a pretty good place with all of it. I wish things were different, but the only person I can control is myself. I’ve made my peace with that. And having such a supportive community of friends here on WordPress has been a huge part helping me find that peace. So thank you. 🙂
My recent frustration mostly came from hearing how the very real issues against Christianity are watered down or simply misrepresented by some Christians. It shouldn’t be surprising… it’s just hard to listen to, especially since I know how much damage it continues to do to my family relationships. When they hear this kind of thing, it only supports the false narrative they have of why I left Christianity to begin with.
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I get it.
I know what it’s like to hear preachers make the dumbest arguments and misrepresent what they’re arguing against… at times it may be that they’re ignorant, but sometimes I think that they must know that they’re having to lie to make their case.
it is maddening.
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Many of them are just as indoctrinated as those they preach to.
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I agree with that. But surely, you are only arguing that if it happened that would be a miracle and evidence of supernatural intervention.
Even the religious agree with that.
By contrast, there could not be a violation of Newton’s laws of motion, because those are necessary truths.
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I just replied to archaeopteryx1 without quoting anything. I’m following up with this to identify whom I replied to.
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I almost feel guilty, Nate, that my own deconversion came so easily, and without any alienation from my family – except of course for the arguments, and my Mom would always say that my dad and I would argue with a fence post, so I wouldn’t by any means call that alienation, just business as usual.
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“But surely, you are only arguing that if it happened that would be a miracle and evidence of supernatural intervention” – No, I’m arguing that it would be brain soup, and that all the king’s horses and all the king’s men, couldn’t put Yeshua together again.
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And yet there’s no quotation —
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Maybe a little thoughtful Biblically grounded guidance might be in order … something along the lines of ‘love thy neighbour’ with a little John 3:17 about Jesus not being interested in condemning others?
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Nate, your letter showed up in my email and I ended up reading. I really don’t want to debate, so help me understand. Biblical scholars are convinced the woman caught in adultery actually happened. It was considered if should be removed, but decided they were so sure it was a true event, that it should be left in. If they are wrong, which they don’t believe they are, but if they are, then again, it does not affect doctrine. Who are these experts that you believe over and above other experts? Why are you so convinced they are right? And what about all the 98% that we are sure of? We just throw all that out the window? How is it that a few “debatable” issues cause you such a problem? To be dealing in absolutes would be one thing, but most of these that I have seen are very debatable, full of speculation, and unproven science, simply theories at best. Take this particular example you have given. Most biblical scholars are convinced of it, wherever it came from, but they do admit it’s not part of the original John. If you don’t trust it, then simply disregard it. We don’t have a 100% perfect translation, but there are so many ways of checking and double checking things. If you can prove beyond any doubt that say 2% is messed up, why not just disregard that part, and see what you have left? And oh, by the way, I do still believe in miracles. What Christian worth his salt does not? Some of these people you speak of really blow my mind. I don’t know these circles you seem to have been in. So anyway, I’m speaking straight from my heart as best I know how. I’m not debating. It’s getting us nowhere. Question: A rough estimate. If you eliminated every scripture you’re absolutely sure you’ve proven wrong, I mean we’re talking absolutes here, what % of the Bible would you have left? And I’m not talking about things like Noah’s Ark. If God is supernatural, and if he can cause all those animals to come out two by two and simply stroll onto a man made Ark, then surely he could make them all fit, even if he had to do it supernaturally. Surely you can see this? So you gotta set things like that aside. God is not going to fit in any box you can mentally comprehend and explain away. If he did, he wouldn’t be God. Okay, I’m done. It’s late. I’m exhausted and got work tomorrow. I don’t even know why I read this. I was just checking my email real quick before bed. It’s my wife and my 38 wedding anniversary, and I got a special surprise I made up for her waiting. She gets home around eleven, but I’ll probably be already conking out, I hope. Hey, man. We’re not enemies, but I guess I’m just not able to be the biblical genius you need. I believe in the simplicity of Christ. We make it complicated. Just my opinion.
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Nate, sorry about the blacklisting and awkwardness you’ve experienced. I totally understand how those apologetic approaches and attitudes are frustrating. People can fail to appreciate that there are good reasons to doubt, and there is no simple solution to regain faith even if one wanted to. Anyway, it sounds like you are diplomatic and have a wonderful attitude. I am impressed!
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