Ken aka kcchief1
AUG 12, 2013 @ 13:36:35
@unkleE, “I’d be interested to know about those 50 years – what sort of christianity were you involved in and how involved were you?”
I wasn’t going to reply to this but thought it necessary to after all. This is where Christian Apologists cross the line. They (you) can’t accept the fact that if I were a Christian like themselves (yourself) , I couldn’t possibly denounce my faith and become something else. Therefore my Christian walk had to be inferior to theirs (yours). It is a flawed argument designed to make the Apologist justified in continuing his Christian Walk. He is the “True Christian” because he continues to believe and those who fall by the wayside never were.
This was a problem among most Christians I ever knew. When learning (gossip) of a failure of a fellow Christian the common thought / response was, how “Christian” were they ? How strong was their walk ? I don’t find this behavior taught by Jesus in the NT anywhere.
(today) Christians don’t normally ask these types of questions unless they are challenging “how Christian” the de-convert was.
I will let the statements above speak for themselves.
I have no idea. Were there really a large number of people claiming this? What exactly did they claim? I thought this was just a hypothetical, I had no idea there really were such people.
Between April 1968 and May 1971 hundreds of thousands of people reported seeing apparitions of the Virgin Mary over a Coptic Orthodox church in Zeitoun, near Cairo, Egypt. When photographed only irregular blobs of light were seen. In other words, they were earthquake lights. Analysis by scientists revealed that luminous phenomena in Zeitoun increased during the month of or the month before an increase in regional seismic activity. The hallucinations reflected the religious background of the crowds. Power of suggestion fed the mass hysteria.
I have no idea. Were there really a large number of people claiming this? What exactly did they claim? I thought this was just a hypothetical, I had no idea there really were such people.
Yes, there were a lot of people who claimed to have seen Elvis after he died. Some had visions and some thought they saw him in public. It was a very emotional experience for some fans who adored Elvis and could not accept that he had actually died.
I think a large portion of the claims can be attributed to mistaken identity. This could also be true in the case of Jesus’ followers (he may have looked similar to others). Some of these stories might still be lingering in the gospel’s post-resurrection accounts where Jesus is not immediately recognized (on the beach, in the garden, walking to Emmaus).
Another possibility is that people lied because they were in competition. “All three of you have seen Jesus? I saw him too!” And then there could also be people who have a dream and see Jesus talking to them or something and interpret it as a vision.
I think these are all likely scenarios that should be considered along with hallucination.
I’m not suggesting you presuppose it, just that it follows once (and if) we conclude that God does exist and Jesus told the truth. But I think you make too much of the unusualness of these teachings. Quantum physics is bizarre and “impossible” in many ways, yet it appears to be true.
Rather than letting it follow, I think the theology should be considered as part of the “package”. But, yes, the universe is strange – no doubt about that.
It has been clear to me for decades that there is development of the disciples’ understanding of who Jesus was. After all, they were monotheistic Jews, and to believe he was the unique son of God was an enormous jump. But that is the view they came to, and it didn’t take them all that long. It seems that Jesus was the object of worship within a decade of his death, and passages in Paul’s letters show this – not (probably) in Paul’s words, but in words already written before he wrote (so the historians say, based on the language used in several passages). So he didn’t make that idea up at all, it was already there in the christian community.
Yes, that’s a good point. I think you’re referring to Philippians 2:6-11. This could also be evidence of what was being “sung” by Paul’s followers, not necessarily the early followers of Jesus. Also, even if it was believed by Jesus’ followers within a decade after his death it does not automatically follow that the historical Jesus actually thought this of himself. I think it’s safe to say we are uncertain whether the historical Jesus ever claimed divine status.
The historians are generally convinced the stories weren’t just made up
I don’t think all of the miracle stories were just made up. Several of the miracle stories could be based on something that actually happened. Many of these could have been exaggerated (this is just human nature to make people and events sound awesome when we relay information). Other stories may have been made up to make an improvement or theological point. Like the raising of Lazarus in John may have been an improvement to the parable in Luke where a man named Lazarus is not sent back from the dead.
“Yes, there were a lot of people who claimed to have seen Elvis after he died. Some had visions and some thought they saw him in public. It was a very emotional experience for some fans who adored Elvis and could not accept that he had actually died.”
Hi Dave, you have introduced me to a whole new world. I have sometimes joked that Elvis is still alive and pumping gas in the small towns of Ellinger and Fayetteville in Texas (the only part of the US I have any familiarity with), but I can see my references are nowhere near fanciful enough!
I am quite interested in these phenomena but have only done a little investigation of a small part of the range. What is clear is that people report all sorts of amazing experiences – NDEs, visions, healings, mystical experiences, divine visitations, psi, etc. Many of these have been studied scientifically and there are large databases of the stories in some of these areas.
I think it is interesting to try to draw some general conclusions – here are a few suggestions.
1. Of course there are some unstable people reporting some of these things, but there enough apparently “normal” people reporting them that mental instability cannot be the sole explanation.
2. Likewise we can’t say the stories are all fakes, urban myths or mistakes. There are too many for that.
3. So what is the explanation? I have read a few books on some of these subjects that look at the sort of explanations we would pick (hallucinations, neurological blips of one kind or another, etc) and found that no one explanation can cover them all. Many of the experiences are inexplicable and many others much argued over.
4. When I consider such phenomena, I think there are quite a few options – the event never happened, it was mis-reported or exaggerated, someone lied etc; or it has a natural explanation, whether by known science or unknown science; or we really do have some psi abilities; or it has a supernatural explanation, whether from God or some other (perhaps evil) spiritual force or being. Obviously most reports of strange experiences cannot be classified, but I am open to all those possibilities, at least in theory.
A materialist must rule out some of those explanations, but I think, whatever the explanation, all this throws doubt on a purely materialistic explanation of the universe. People’s brains/minds appear way more complex than materialism allows.
But there are ways to test some of these. Psychotic behaviour can be recognised. Experiences can have lasting effects that can be observed – some are good, some are not. People can later recant.
The resurrection of Jesus obviously cannot be tested in the same ways, but it does pass some of the tests. There is no reason to believe anyone was psychotic, group hallucinations are difficult, the experiences lasted and continued to motivate them, the belief that they’d seen Jesus alive appears to have led to them worshiping him, etc. The argument goes on. We each choose to believe or not believe the stories. But what I think we can’t say is that they can be easily discarded. Jeffery Lowder, who was one of the originators of the secular web, investigated the resurrection and concluded: “On the basis of the available evidence (and the arguments I’ve seen), I conclude that a rational person may accept or reject the resurrection.”
“I think you’re referring to Philippians 2:6-11.”
Also 1 Corinthians 15:1ff. But the point is that these passages give a good indication that Paul didn’t “invent” christianity – Jesus’ earliest followers, because they believed he had been resurrected, had already come to believe he was the son of God, and Paul just developed that belief into a theology.
“I think it’s safe to say we are uncertain whether the historical Jesus ever claimed divine status.”
Explicitly, I think that may be so, implicitly, I think he did.
“I don’t think all of the miracle stories were just made up. Several of the miracle stories could be based on something that actually happened.”
Again, the point is that, whatever happened, these stories (and the stories of the resurrection) aren’t legends that developed later – they were believed in his day, and continued to be believed.
So, as I keep saying, we can each choose to believe, on the basis of the best historical evidence and analysis, whether we believe Jesus really did heal people, really was resurrected and really was in some sense divine, but these views cannot really be dismissed as anti-historical or crazy, and if we can accept God might exist, those beliefs make sense within that context. My aim here isn’t to press anyone to believe anything, just to present the historical evidence and suggest that believing in Jesus is quite reasonable. Whether we believe it is true is each person’s choice.
I think this last paragraph of yours sounds like a good conclusion to our discussion. I think we’ve both stated the points we hoped to make. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did.
Hi Dave, yes I agree, I have enjoyed the discussion and the challenge of responding to your comments, and think this is a good place to conclude. Thanks a lot.
So, as I keep saying, we can each choose to believe, on the basis of the best historical evidence and analysis,
If the ”best evidence” is what you cite, unklee then it really is no wonder the likes of Dave, Nan, Victoria, Gary M, Ken, William and Nate happily walked away from religion and god belief.
If you were to apply a similar level evidence to your work during your professional career, I wouldn’t be surprised if you were not facing lawsuits.
Again the only question remains, why are you still a Christian?
Finding Truth 
Ken aka kcchief1
AUG 12, 2013 @ 13:36:35
@unkleE, “I’d be interested to know about those 50 years – what sort of christianity were you involved in and how involved were you?”
I wasn’t going to reply to this but thought it necessary to after all. This is where Christian Apologists cross the line. They (you) can’t accept the fact that if I were a Christian like themselves (yourself) , I couldn’t possibly denounce my faith and become something else. Therefore my Christian walk had to be inferior to theirs (yours). It is a flawed argument designed to make the Apologist justified in continuing his Christian Walk. He is the “True Christian” because he continues to believe and those who fall by the wayside never were.
This was a problem among most Christians I ever knew. When learning (gossip) of a failure of a fellow Christian the common thought / response was, how “Christian” were they ? How strong was their walk ? I don’t find this behavior taught by Jesus in the NT anywhere.
(today) Christians don’t normally ask these types of questions unless they are challenging “how Christian” the de-convert was.
I will let the statements above speak for themselves.
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I have no idea. Were there really a large number of people claiming this? What exactly did they claim? I thought this was just a hypothetical, I had no idea there really were such people.
Between April 1968 and May 1971 hundreds of thousands of people reported seeing apparitions of the Virgin Mary over a Coptic Orthodox church in Zeitoun, near Cairo, Egypt. When photographed only irregular blobs of light were seen. In other words, they were earthquake lights. Analysis by scientists revealed that luminous phenomena in Zeitoun increased during the month of or the month before an increase in regional seismic activity. The hallucinations reflected the religious background of the crowds. Power of suggestion fed the mass hysteria.
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Hi UnkleE,
Yes, there were a lot of people who claimed to have seen Elvis after he died. Some had visions and some thought they saw him in public. It was a very emotional experience for some fans who adored Elvis and could not accept that he had actually died.
Here are some interesting articles:
http://www.csicop.org/sb/show/elvis_lives_investigating_the_legends_and_phenomena/
http://www.elvisinfonet.com/faith.html
I think a large portion of the claims can be attributed to mistaken identity. This could also be true in the case of Jesus’ followers (he may have looked similar to others). Some of these stories might still be lingering in the gospel’s post-resurrection accounts where Jesus is not immediately recognized (on the beach, in the garden, walking to Emmaus).
Another possibility is that people lied because they were in competition. “All three of you have seen Jesus? I saw him too!” And then there could also be people who have a dream and see Jesus talking to them or something and interpret it as a vision.
I think these are all likely scenarios that should be considered along with hallucination.
Rather than letting it follow, I think the theology should be considered as part of the “package”. But, yes, the universe is strange – no doubt about that.
Yes, that’s a good point. I think you’re referring to Philippians 2:6-11. This could also be evidence of what was being “sung” by Paul’s followers, not necessarily the early followers of Jesus. Also, even if it was believed by Jesus’ followers within a decade after his death it does not automatically follow that the historical Jesus actually thought this of himself. I think it’s safe to say we are uncertain whether the historical Jesus ever claimed divine status.
I don’t think all of the miracle stories were just made up. Several of the miracle stories could be based on something that actually happened. Many of these could have been exaggerated (this is just human nature to make people and events sound awesome when we relay information). Other stories may have been made up to make an improvement or theological point. Like the raising of Lazarus in John may have been an improvement to the parable in Luke where a man named Lazarus is not sent back from the dead.
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So true, V.
When desperately seeking comfort, love or a sign, we can all see things that aren’t there or describe things in nature as supernatural.
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“Yes, there were a lot of people who claimed to have seen Elvis after he died. Some had visions and some thought they saw him in public. It was a very emotional experience for some fans who adored Elvis and could not accept that he had actually died.”
Hi Dave, you have introduced me to a whole new world. I have sometimes joked that Elvis is still alive and pumping gas in the small towns of Ellinger and Fayetteville in Texas (the only part of the US I have any familiarity with), but I can see my references are nowhere near fanciful enough!
I am quite interested in these phenomena but have only done a little investigation of a small part of the range. What is clear is that people report all sorts of amazing experiences – NDEs, visions, healings, mystical experiences, divine visitations, psi, etc. Many of these have been studied scientifically and there are large databases of the stories in some of these areas.
I think it is interesting to try to draw some general conclusions – here are a few suggestions.
1. Of course there are some unstable people reporting some of these things, but there enough apparently “normal” people reporting them that mental instability cannot be the sole explanation.
2. Likewise we can’t say the stories are all fakes, urban myths or mistakes. There are too many for that.
3. So what is the explanation? I have read a few books on some of these subjects that look at the sort of explanations we would pick (hallucinations, neurological blips of one kind or another, etc) and found that no one explanation can cover them all. Many of the experiences are inexplicable and many others much argued over.
4. When I consider such phenomena, I think there are quite a few options – the event never happened, it was mis-reported or exaggerated, someone lied etc; or it has a natural explanation, whether by known science or unknown science; or we really do have some psi abilities; or it has a supernatural explanation, whether from God or some other (perhaps evil) spiritual force or being. Obviously most reports of strange experiences cannot be classified, but I am open to all those possibilities, at least in theory.
A materialist must rule out some of those explanations, but I think, whatever the explanation, all this throws doubt on a purely materialistic explanation of the universe. People’s brains/minds appear way more complex than materialism allows.
But there are ways to test some of these. Psychotic behaviour can be recognised. Experiences can have lasting effects that can be observed – some are good, some are not. People can later recant.
The resurrection of Jesus obviously cannot be tested in the same ways, but it does pass some of the tests. There is no reason to believe anyone was psychotic, group hallucinations are difficult, the experiences lasted and continued to motivate them, the belief that they’d seen Jesus alive appears to have led to them worshiping him, etc. The argument goes on. We each choose to believe or not believe the stories. But what I think we can’t say is that they can be easily discarded. Jeffery Lowder, who was one of the originators of the secular web, investigated the resurrection and concluded: “On the basis of the available evidence (and the arguments I’ve seen), I conclude that a rational person may accept or reject the resurrection.”
“I think you’re referring to Philippians 2:6-11.”
Also 1 Corinthians 15:1ff. But the point is that these passages give a good indication that Paul didn’t “invent” christianity – Jesus’ earliest followers, because they believed he had been resurrected, had already come to believe he was the son of God, and Paul just developed that belief into a theology.
“I think it’s safe to say we are uncertain whether the historical Jesus ever claimed divine status.”
Explicitly, I think that may be so, implicitly, I think he did.
“I don’t think all of the miracle stories were just made up. Several of the miracle stories could be based on something that actually happened.”
Again, the point is that, whatever happened, these stories (and the stories of the resurrection) aren’t legends that developed later – they were believed in his day, and continued to be believed.
So, as I keep saying, we can each choose to believe, on the basis of the best historical evidence and analysis, whether we believe Jesus really did heal people, really was resurrected and really was in some sense divine, but these views cannot really be dismissed as anti-historical or crazy, and if we can accept God might exist, those beliefs make sense within that context. My aim here isn’t to press anyone to believe anything, just to present the historical evidence and suggest that believing in Jesus is quite reasonable. Whether we believe it is true is each person’s choice.
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Hi UnkleE,
I think this last paragraph of yours sounds like a good conclusion to our discussion. I think we’ve both stated the points we hoped to make. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did.
Have a nice weekend everyone!
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Hi Dave, yes I agree, I have enjoyed the discussion and the challenge of responding to your comments, and think this is a good place to conclude. Thanks a lot.
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If the ”best evidence” is what you cite, unklee then it really is no wonder the likes of Dave, Nan, Victoria, Gary M, Ken, William and Nate happily walked away from religion and god belief.
If you were to apply a similar level evidence to your work during your professional career, I wouldn’t be surprised if you were not facing lawsuits.
Again the only question remains, why are you still a Christian?
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If you want to believe something, you can always find evidence to confirm it…at least to you.
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“If you want to believe something, you can always find evidence to confirm it…at least to you.”
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