151 thoughts on “Does This Make Any Sense At All?”
I believe he is very careful how he phrases his arguments and he certainly weights the odds in his favour. As there are currently so few scholars that measure up to (his) specific criteria in this field who are openly prepared to acknowledge that the character, Jesus of Nazareth, ( and Paul for that matter) is very likely mythological he is currently holding all the aces.
But, in the grand scheme of things, this scenario is changing rapidly.
“One day I finally decided it was time to hold the savior of my salvation accountable to his own words.”
At the risk of sounding like an apologist, Charity, that’s really not fair, but given the circumstances, it’s about all you can do with what you have to work with. We really can’t say just what his words were, assuming he existed.
According to Bart Ehrman, the oldest writings are closest to the truth, and I know of no reputable biblical scholar who disputes that “Mark” wasn’t written until a full 40 years after Yeshua’s alleged death, “Matthew” five years (+/-) after that, “Luke” ten years later still, and “John” around the turn of the century, or 60-70 years after the fact. By the time pseudo-John wrote, he had so embellished his account that it likely does not resemble anything even remotely approaching the truth.
We can discount outright the 7 genuine letters of Paul (out of 13), as he never met the man, and though it does seem that he did indeed meet some of the actual apostles, anything he wrote is at best second-hand.
The closest accounts to his actual words were written by two anonymous authors (surprise!) – the author of the “Q” source (which no longer survives) and the “Gospel of Thomas”. Neither of those wrote literary accounts – no story-line, no shepherds, angels, wise men, walking dead, etc. – but were comprised entirely of statements that Yeshua allegedly actually said, and as they were written so early in the history of Christianity, these are the ones most likely to have been closest to being accurate.
It’s really difficult to judge Yeshua on the basis of what someone said he said. Unfortunately, the boy could likely neither read nor write, and so couldn’t have produced his own manifesto.
That’s the thing, Arch, I was making the best decision that I could at the time with the best tools I had available for me. I never read anything by an atheist while I was still a Christian. Instead, I extensively went through various translations, bible studies, commentaries and the Strong’s concordance for about 20 years (when my serious doubts began) before deconversion. I wore out all of my Bibles, prayer journals, Vine’s and Pentateuch looking for answers for many years. If said god has something important to say, wouldn’t he be as clear as possible through the most precise communication as possible? This is why we often hear that the Bible is the best tool for atheism. It’s nauseating to try to figure out what was said and what was not. What the Greek or Hebrew actually meant. Where there should be a comma instead of a period or a period instead of a comma. Word of Faithers are notorious for the latter.
For me, the proof of god not existing does not fall on non believers and the proof of his existence isn’t up to his followers. The almighty needs to show himself to all of us if he wants us to follow him.
As I’ve mentioned before, my children know I exist. My children don’t have to put together puzzles or riddles for answers. There is no mystery about the love I have for them. They know that their parents have great affection for them and work hard to meet their needs.
I wanted to comment on this, Peter, but was out (or ‘oot and aboot,’ as the Canadians say) all day yesterday, so sorry for the seeming delay.
I’m deep into Dr. Bart Ehrman’s book, “The New Testament, A Historical Introduction to the Early Christian Writings,” and Ehrman explains that before Yeshua was crucified, some of his followers may have come to believe that he was the Messiah, but then, he was summarily executed for sedition, thereby shattering the hopes of his followers that he could be the future deliverer of his people.
Prior to the 587 BCE overthrow of Judea by the Babylonians, the Jewish king was cerimonially anointed with oil at his inauguration ceremony as a symbolic expression of their god’s favor – thus he was known as “the Lord’s anointed,” or in Greek, the christos, but there was no king to warm the throne for over three hundred years (until the Hasmonean rulers in the mid-second century BCE), but this led to the idea that there would be a future king, like David, who would rule the “chosen people” once again as a sovereign nation in the Promised Land.
By the time of the New Testament, several different versions of what this future ruler would be like, emerged. Some expected a warrior-king like David, who would throw off the yoke of Rome, others a more supernatural cosmic judge of the earth, while still others (the community of Essenes who produced the Dead Sea Scrolls), a priestly ruler who would provide authoritative interpretations of their god’s law for his people.
BUT, in no source, prior to the writing of the NT, was there any reference to a future messiah who is to suffer and die for the sins of the people.
So with the death of Yeshua, a new scenario was necessary if anyone was to believe that he was actually the messiah – the earliest Christian believers were therefore compelled to insist that their messiah, contrary to general expectations, was to die and be raised from the dead, as their god’s demonstration that the man had been vindicated of all wrong doing. Thus they scrambled to search their scriptures for divine proof that their definition of the messiah was the correct one. Isaiah 53 was one of those blueprints, and the authors of the testaments made sure that all of the ancient prophecies were made to appear to have come true in their stories of Yeshua.
These were combined with the Jewish custom of sacrificing a perfect lamb for the Sin Offering of Atonement, which led to Migdal Edar, where such perfect sacrificial lambs were raised and wrapped in swaddling clothes and laid in a manger for the first few hours of life to prevent their injuring themselves until they had had time to gain strength in their legs – Megdal Edar was located just outside (spoiler alert!) the little town of Bethlehem.
Interestingly, nowhere in Isaiah, nor in any of those prophecies, was the term ‘Messiah’ ever mentioned.
“I was making the best decision that I could at the time with the best tools I had available for me.”
Oh, I completely understand that that was the case, Charity, and I had hoped I had made that clear, but in case I didn’t, I’m not faulting you in the least, just saying that we really have no way of knowing where biblical truth begins and ends, but that’s on the Bible, not on you.
“…and the authors of the testaments made sure that all of the ancient prophecies were made to appear to have come true in their stories of Yeshua.”
Pseudo-Matthew is particularly obvious about this, often stating blatantly, “And this was to fulfill the prophecy, (specific prophecy stated, yada, yada) —“
It’s nauseating to try to figure out what was said and what was not. What the Greek or Hebrew actually meant. Where there should be a comma instead of a period or a period instead of a comma.
In most cases, the god followers don’t worry about any of this, Charity. They just accept as “TRUTH” what comes out of the mouth of their preachers, pastors, bishops, priests, etc. It isn’t until one experiences a twinge of doubt and then follows it up with reading and research that all this comes to the forefront. Of course, when it does, the world of Christianity gets turned upside down and voila! Another atheist or agnostic is born!
Oh, I absolutely agree with you, Arch. I think what many Christians fail to understand is that many of us non believers have done more homework regarding their faith than what they have. That is why we don’t believe.
The difference being that, in their minds, such research could be seen by their god as a lack of faith – then you have to go out and buy a lightning rod and carry it around at all times – you can see how complicated that could get, better to just believe.
Indeed, Nan. I was a Christian from the age of three to 39. From my late teens (while I attended Bible school) until my deconversion, I prayed and studied like crazy. That was 20 years of MAJOR doubts and I still stuck around. Why? I thought I was the common denominator in all of my struggles. Near the end I realized that god/Jesus itself was the common denominator instead. After all, “he” was the center of all the drama in my life regarding church, family, prayer, Bible Study and friendships.
Over the past couple of years, hubby and I have come out to both of our large families, co workers, medical providers and even a little bit to our kids’ teachers. There’s been something quite liberating about all of that. Some we have told we’re non religous, others we have flat out told we’re atheists. All in all, it’s really not surprising to see who has kicked us out of their lives. At first it was painful, but in looking at how abusive and judgemental those people are it’s no surprise at all.
I’m learning more and more about the value of common sense and logic. I’m learning to go above my emotions and be more direct with those around me. After all, I’m not an intellectual. If I, as an American woman living in the South, had the questions I had, I can’t be the only one. There’s got to be so many more Christians out there looking for a way out, but haven’t a clue as to how.
Ruth is a sweet girl. She’s much nicer than I am. She went through some real life horror and still came away from it all as kind as she is. If these visiting Christians still think prayer works, they need to read her story, especially what she wrote about her first marriage. God had plenty of times to save her faithful Christian self from harm, but did nothing. Somehow, someway, she got smart and left her wretched husband and Jesus. She will never cease to amaze me!
She’s a WHOLE LOT nicer than I am, but all in all, I’m very pleased with the way I turned out. Oh, I could maybe part my hair differently, but other than that —
When unkleE sites a study like this one, Spirituality May Help People Live Longer, he hopes we won’t read further , statements like, “Researchers, including Koenig, say there are limitations to the conclusions anyone should draw from these studies. It could be that people who attend religious services benefit from the social network they form”.
In other words, belonging to other social networks like civic clubs can produce the same results. But of course these other social networks don’t promote unkleE’s agenda. Hmmmm
I had a Christian lady (whom I was paying to teach my granddaughter piano) send me a link to a YouTube video that maintained that a number of academics had been fired for being Christian. I jotted down those names and researched, and discovered that each had lost their jobs for reasons entirely unrelated to their religion. I emailed her each of my discoveries – she was not pleased and stopped emailing me. We’re supposed to take such assertions at face value and never dig any deeper, after all, that’s what Christians do.
Finding Truth 
I believe he is very careful how he phrases his arguments and he certainly weights the odds in his favour. As there are currently so few scholars that measure up to (his) specific criteria in this field who are openly prepared to acknowledge that the character, Jesus of Nazareth, ( and Paul for that matter) is very likely mythological he is currently holding all the aces.
But, in the grand scheme of things, this scenario is changing rapidly.
Give it a couple of decades, and who knows?
LikeLiked by 1 person
“One day I finally decided it was time to hold the savior of my salvation accountable to his own words.”
At the risk of sounding like an apologist, Charity, that’s really not fair, but given the circumstances, it’s about all you can do with what you have to work with. We really can’t say just what his words were, assuming he existed.
According to Bart Ehrman, the oldest writings are closest to the truth, and I know of no reputable biblical scholar who disputes that “Mark” wasn’t written until a full 40 years after Yeshua’s alleged death, “Matthew” five years (+/-) after that, “Luke” ten years later still, and “John” around the turn of the century, or 60-70 years after the fact. By the time pseudo-John wrote, he had so embellished his account that it likely does not resemble anything even remotely approaching the truth.
We can discount outright the 7 genuine letters of Paul (out of 13), as he never met the man, and though it does seem that he did indeed meet some of the actual apostles, anything he wrote is at best second-hand.
The closest accounts to his actual words were written by two anonymous authors (surprise!) – the author of the “Q” source (which no longer survives) and the “Gospel of Thomas”. Neither of those wrote literary accounts – no story-line, no shepherds, angels, wise men, walking dead, etc. – but were comprised entirely of statements that Yeshua allegedly actually said, and as they were written so early in the history of Christianity, these are the ones most likely to have been closest to being accurate.
It’s really difficult to judge Yeshua on the basis of what someone said he said. Unfortunately, the boy could likely neither read nor write, and so couldn’t have produced his own manifesto.
LikeLiked by 1 person
LikeLiked by 1 person
That’s the thing, Arch, I was making the best decision that I could at the time with the best tools I had available for me. I never read anything by an atheist while I was still a Christian. Instead, I extensively went through various translations, bible studies, commentaries and the Strong’s concordance for about 20 years (when my serious doubts began) before deconversion. I wore out all of my Bibles, prayer journals, Vine’s and Pentateuch looking for answers for many years. If said god has something important to say, wouldn’t he be as clear as possible through the most precise communication as possible? This is why we often hear that the Bible is the best tool for atheism. It’s nauseating to try to figure out what was said and what was not. What the Greek or Hebrew actually meant. Where there should be a comma instead of a period or a period instead of a comma. Word of Faithers are notorious for the latter.
For me, the proof of god not existing does not fall on non believers and the proof of his existence isn’t up to his followers. The almighty needs to show himself to all of us if he wants us to follow him.
As I’ve mentioned before, my children know I exist. My children don’t have to put together puzzles or riddles for answers. There is no mystery about the love I have for them. They know that their parents have great affection for them and work hard to meet their needs.
LikeLike
I wanted to comment on this, Peter, but was out (or ‘oot and aboot,’ as the Canadians say) all day yesterday, so sorry for the seeming delay.
I’m deep into Dr. Bart Ehrman’s book, “The New Testament, A Historical Introduction to the Early Christian Writings,” and Ehrman explains that before Yeshua was crucified, some of his followers may have come to believe that he was the Messiah, but then, he was summarily executed for sedition, thereby shattering the hopes of his followers that he could be the future deliverer of his people.
Prior to the 587 BCE overthrow of Judea by the Babylonians, the Jewish king was cerimonially anointed with oil at his inauguration ceremony as a symbolic expression of their god’s favor – thus he was known as “the Lord’s anointed,” or in Greek, the christos, but there was no king to warm the throne for over three hundred years (until the Hasmonean rulers in the mid-second century BCE), but this led to the idea that there would be a future king, like David, who would rule the “chosen people” once again as a sovereign nation in the Promised Land.
By the time of the New Testament, several different versions of what this future ruler would be like, emerged. Some expected a warrior-king like David, who would throw off the yoke of Rome, others a more supernatural cosmic judge of the earth, while still others (the community of Essenes who produced the Dead Sea Scrolls), a priestly ruler who would provide authoritative interpretations of their god’s law for his people.
BUT, in no source, prior to the writing of the NT, was there any reference to a future messiah who is to suffer and die for the sins of the people.
So with the death of Yeshua, a new scenario was necessary if anyone was to believe that he was actually the messiah – the earliest Christian believers were therefore compelled to insist that their messiah, contrary to general expectations, was to die and be raised from the dead, as their god’s demonstration that the man had been vindicated of all wrong doing. Thus they scrambled to search their scriptures for divine proof that their definition of the messiah was the correct one. Isaiah 53 was one of those blueprints, and the authors of the testaments made sure that all of the ancient prophecies were made to appear to have come true in their stories of Yeshua.
These were combined with the Jewish custom of sacrificing a perfect lamb for the Sin Offering of Atonement, which led to Migdal Edar, where such perfect sacrificial lambs were raised and wrapped in swaddling clothes and laid in a manger for the first few hours of life to prevent their injuring themselves until they had had time to gain strength in their legs – Megdal Edar was located just outside (spoiler alert!) the little town of Bethlehem.
Interestingly, nowhere in Isaiah, nor in any of those prophecies, was the term ‘Messiah’ ever mentioned.
LikeLiked by 3 people
“I was making the best decision that I could at the time with the best tools I had available for me.”
Oh, I completely understand that that was the case, Charity, and I had hoped I had made that clear, but in case I didn’t, I’m not faulting you in the least, just saying that we really have no way of knowing where biblical truth begins and ends, but that’s on the Bible, not on you.
LikeLiked by 1 person
“…and the authors of the testaments made sure that all of the ancient prophecies were made to appear to have come true in their stories of Yeshua.”
Pseudo-Matthew is particularly obvious about this, often stating blatantly, “And this was to fulfill the prophecy, (specific prophecy stated, yada, yada) —“
LikeLiked by 1 person
It’s nauseating to try to figure out what was said and what was not. What the Greek or Hebrew actually meant. Where there should be a comma instead of a period or a period instead of a comma.
In most cases, the god followers don’t worry about any of this, Charity. They just accept as “TRUTH” what comes out of the mouth of their preachers, pastors, bishops, priests, etc. It isn’t until one experiences a twinge of doubt and then follows it up with reading and research that all this comes to the forefront. Of course, when it does, the world of Christianity gets turned upside down and voila! Another atheist or agnostic is born!
LikeLiked by 2 people
Oh, I absolutely agree with you, Arch. I think what many Christians fail to understand is that many of us non believers have done more homework regarding their faith than what they have. That is why we don’t believe.
LikeLike
The difference being that, in their minds, such research could be seen by their god as a lack of faith – then you have to go out and buy a lightning rod and carry it around at all times – you can see how complicated that could get, better to just believe.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Indeed, Nan. I was a Christian from the age of three to 39. From my late teens (while I attended Bible school) until my deconversion, I prayed and studied like crazy. That was 20 years of MAJOR doubts and I still stuck around. Why? I thought I was the common denominator in all of my struggles. Near the end I realized that god/Jesus itself was the common denominator instead. After all, “he” was the center of all the drama in my life regarding church, family, prayer, Bible Study and friendships.
Over the past couple of years, hubby and I have come out to both of our large families, co workers, medical providers and even a little bit to our kids’ teachers. There’s been something quite liberating about all of that. Some we have told we’re non religous, others we have flat out told we’re atheists. All in all, it’s really not surprising to see who has kicked us out of their lives. At first it was painful, but in looking at how abusive and judgemental those people are it’s no surprise at all.
I’m learning more and more about the value of common sense and logic. I’m learning to go above my emotions and be more direct with those around me. After all, I’m not an intellectual. If I, as an American woman living in the South, had the questions I had, I can’t be the only one. There’s got to be so many more Christians out there looking for a way out, but haven’t a clue as to how.
LikeLiked by 3 people
So true, Arch. Like I told Ruth earlier, I don’t miss having to consistently convince myself that god is god and he is good.
LikeLike
Ruth doesn’t comment much, does she? I miss her.
LikeLike
Ruth is a sweet girl. She’s much nicer than I am. She went through some real life horror and still came away from it all as kind as she is. If these visiting Christians still think prayer works, they need to read her story, especially what she wrote about her first marriage. God had plenty of times to save her faithful Christian self from harm, but did nothing. Somehow, someway, she got smart and left her wretched husband and Jesus. She will never cease to amaze me!
LikeLike
I guess I wised up about jc when I realized there was too much shit and not enough shovels.
LikeLiked by 2 people
“She’s much nicer than I am.”
She’s a WHOLE LOT nicer than I am, but all in all, I’m very pleased with the way I turned out. Oh, I could maybe part my hair differently, but other than that —
LikeLiked by 3 people
“too much shit and not enough shovels.”
I LIKE that! And I WILL us that and claim I thought of it first!
LikeLiked by 1 person
We’re quite pleased how you turned out too, Arch. Have a great holiday and a fantastic new year!
LikeLike
As NeuroNotes will be quick to tell you, I’m 85% BS, so you shouldn’t take much of what I say more than semi-seriously.
LikeLiked by 1 person
I will 2nd his statement ! LOL Happy Holidays Arch !
LikeLike
LikeLiked by 1 person
When unkleE sites a study like this one, Spirituality May Help People Live Longer, he hopes we won’t read further , statements like, “Researchers, including Koenig, say there are limitations to the conclusions anyone should draw from these studies. It could be that people who attend religious services benefit from the social network they form”.
In other words, belonging to other social networks like civic clubs can produce the same results. But of course these other social networks don’t promote unkleE’s agenda. Hmmmm
LikeLiked by 2 people
I had a Christian lady (whom I was paying to teach my granddaughter piano) send me a link to a YouTube video that maintained that a number of academics had been fired for being Christian. I jotted down those names and researched, and discovered that each had lost their jobs for reasons entirely unrelated to their religion. I emailed her each of my discoveries – she was not pleased and stopped emailing me. We’re supposed to take such assertions at face value and never dig any deeper, after all, that’s what Christians do.
LikeLiked by 4 people
Amen , Brother Arch ! 🙂
LikeLiked by 2 people
Thanks for the ‘Like,’ Nan – makes me very reluctant to tell you that the piano teacher’s name was Nan.
LikeLike