We live in a world where it’s possible to question the very existence of God, even the supernatural altogether. Our world also contains many religions that, more often than not, tend to break out along ethnic and cultural boundaries. Most of these religions claim to be the one true way to win the “game” of life — whether that’s through reaching enlightenment, receiving salvation, etc.
So for the sake of argument, let’s say that there really is a God, and he’s given us one of these religions that we’re supposed to follow. As most of these religions teach, picking the wrong belief system will result in horrible punishment that is likely to last an eternity. I already see lots of problems with this scenario, but let’s ignore those for the moment.
How are we supposed to know which religion is the true one?
We’re not born with the luxury of knowing about all these religions from a young age. Instead, each of us is raised to believe that one of the options (or none of them) is the truth, so it’s not until we’re adults that we really begin to learn more about the wider world. And at that point, we have a lot of preconceived notions to overcome. But luckily, these religions usually teach that God is a benevolent being that wants every single one of us to find the path to him, so we can reasonably expect that he’ll help us find a way to him.
The most direct way to communicate something to someone is to speak to them directly. So God could choose that method to let us know what he expects of us. If you’re into video games, this is similar to the tutorial dialogs that pop up in your game to let you know the rules. It’s a helpful tool. You can still press whatever buttons you like, but at least you’ll know what’s expected.
Of course, God doesn’t do that for us. Fair enough — what’s another method he could use? Ah, he could send us some kind of “cosmic email” — writing in the sky, or something like that. You know, something that would be nigh impossible for another person to fake. The message would be accompanied by the kind of sign that would give us assurance we’re dealing with the divine. The burning bush, Gideon’s fleece, Paul’s episode on the road to Damascus, etc.
But if God does this kind of thing today, he’s not ubiquitous with it. I’ve never received a sign like that, nor have most people that I’ve ever known. I guess that’s his prerogative, but it does make one question the Bible’s passages that say God is impartial. But I’m starting to digress…
So maybe God could send us some trusted messenger. It would need to be someone that I know well, so I could really trust what they’re saying. But again, I’ve never gotten such a message, and I also know that even well meaning people can sometimes be delusional. I’m not sure I want to risk my soul on such a message delivery system.
So God could send a messenger imbued with divine powers, someone that could work miracles that could only come from God. I would listen to an individual who could do the kinds of miracles that the Bible describes, but I’ve never seen anyone do them.
However, the Bible is a religious text that claims God did use this method a long time ago. Isn’t that just as good as witnessing the miracles for myself? Not for me. Thomas Paine said that once you tell a divine revelation to someone else, it ceases to be revelation and becomes mere hearsay. I have to agree. For me to accept the word of a religious text, the text would have to be incredibly amazing. The writers would have to demonstrate knowledge of things that they couldn’t possibly have known about ahead of time. When events are recounted in multiple places within the text, they must be without error or contradiction. When science is recounted, it must be without error — not simply a regurgitation of what was already known at the time. Its morals must be without reproach. If it gives prophecies, they must be without error.
If those standards seem too high, then maybe you aren’t truly considering what’s at stake. The soul of everyone who has ever lived hinges on the judgments of this God. Each and every soul should be just as precious to him as the souls of your own children are to you. Would you leave the fate of their souls up to chance, or would you do everything within your power to save them from eternal torture (or punishment, or annihilation — whatever your particular flavor teaches)? If you saw a windowless van pull up to your child and watched the driver coax them to come closer, would you stand back to see how your child reacts, or would you run to them as fast as you could, calling them back all the while? You don’t have to answer, because I know what you would do — you’d do what any decent human would do. Why doesn’t God do the same for us? If I’m currently bound for Hell, and I’m influencing my innocent children to eventually follow in my footsteps, why doesn’t God intervene to help us?
And before you say he does just that through scripture, the Bible fails every one of the criteria I listed out. In fact, I’m not aware of any religious text that comes close to meeting those standards. If we accept that God is loving, merciful, and just, then it does not follow that he would be the author of the Bible. I’d be happy to cite specific examples of the Bible’s failings, but I’ve written way too much already. Luckily, I have links to those examples on my home page.
It’s God’s overwhelming hiddenness that sounds the death knell on religion for me. As Delos McKown has said:
The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.
Finding Truth 
In other words unkleE, your analogy uses ALL believable characters, Dave’s analogy does not.
You are comparing apples to oranges.
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Hi Ken, it isn’t up to me to say you are wrong, or right. I am mostly just asking questions which seem to make more difficult than I expected.
But my thought for you to consider is this. No analogy is perfect, and my point isn’t in the analogy but in the points. But the only reasonable way to criticise an analogy is in the area where it seeks to be an analogy, not in the peripheral details. I think your point is peripheral to the analogy.
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“No analogy is perfect, and my point isn’t in the analogy but in the points. But the only reasonable way to criticise an analogy is in the area where it seeks to be an analogy, not in the peripheral details.”
This is why I don’t think your analogy is valid. You are not comparing apples to apples in its present context.
Dave is using a hypothetical who you argue is real. You are using real characters who you argue under certain circumstances are no longer real.
I will let others voice their opinions here .
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Ken and Eric, I think you are both right. Ken is making a good point about the unknown existence of the being in question. But I think this point is missing from the argument so Eric’s criticism of the argument is valid. I had contemplated re-writing some of the points when I pasted them, but I also wanted to give credit for them. Now that credit has been given I am going to go ahead and re-write them. I’ll be back later with a new version.
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Unke E,
Platonism regarding mathematical constructs is a form of attribution of agency, psychologically. That reflex is not superficial or unsophisticated, and it often leads us to take an extra step too far in our assessments.
As in mind/brain, it isn’t that you lack for an explanation, but instead that you are stuck with an explanation.
Finally, you are confusing validity and truth, and in that case, we are at an impasse.
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God told the Israelites Hosea 4:6 “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.” Hosea 6:6 “For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.”
1. Proverbs 4:7* Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.”
What is wisdom and what is understanding?
2. Job 28:28 “And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.
We see that “to depart from evil is understanding.”
What is fear of the Lord?
3. Proverbs 8:13 “The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.”
What is evil? Pride, arrogance, and the froward mouth.
Galatians 5:19-21 “Now the works of the flesh(evil) are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”
So we see that “to hate evil” (wisdom) and “to depart from evil” (understanding) are very important things. I would say that knowledge about our lives is very important. As I once said to a college music class that I was teaching “A life not with examining is a life not with living” To quote Socrates. Paul wrote to the Galatians,
Galatians 4:1-5. ¶ “From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members? Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not. Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts. Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God. Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?”
and then Paul wrote,
Galatians 4:6 “But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.”
Since the word knowledge is mentioned 172 times in the Bible it would be safe to say that it is important to everybody.
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I ment “a life not worth examining is a life not worth living” sorry.
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Charles,
The bible also condones and encourages the rape of women. That must be a pretty important concept to project too, eh?
In other words, the things that are written in the Bible are unimportant to many of us. I believe Nan already tried to point this out to you. Proselytizing doesn’t work on this crowd.
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And Charles, you DO realize that the reason people don’t believe in the supernatural is because of acquiring information – (you know, KNOWLEDGE), do you?
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1. God is omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent.
2. God wants everyone to be aware of his existence so they can choose to love and follow him.
3. It is impossible to love and follow someone if you are not aware that they exist.
4. Since God is omniscient, he knows exactly what it would take for any given person to be aware of his existence.
5. Since God is omnipotent, he is capable of giving everyone exactly what they need to be aware of his existence.
6. Since God is omnibenevolent, he will make his existence known to all so they can choose to love and follow him (or not).
7. However, there are people who are not aware of God’s existence.
8. Therefore, God as described by the first two conditions does not exist.
*You can replace the words “love and follow” with whatever your version of theism dictates, i.e. worship, serve, trust, repent, etc.
Just to add to this, I think that being aware of a concept is not the same as being aware of something existing. For example, I am aware of the concept of Santa Claus, but I am not aware of an actual Santa Claus existing. On the other hand, I am aware that my wife exists and I have made the choice to love and care for her. What would it take to be aware of a cosmic being? I think Nate has given several examples in the opening post.
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Carmen, as is typical for bible-indoctrinated believers, they don’t understand plain English. Maybe I need to do some research and find a bible verse to get my point across. Nahhhh. That would be a waste of good time, I’d much rather spend my days enjoying life. 😉
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@Travis R, I too have questioned , not the statements unkleE shared from some of these studies, but the additional statements he didn’t share. As an example, one study he shared on his own blog stated that people who are part of a social network in general receive these same benefits. Yes, they included people who affiliated themselves with religious organizations but not limited to these organizations. JayCees, Elks Clubs, Amvets Clubs to name a few also provided these positive benefits. He just didn’t see a need to list these non-religious organizations. 🙂
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Jesus said. Mt 24:35 “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.” That’s why this statement is true. “The main reason God won’t go away is because our brains won’t allow God to leave. Our brains are set up in such a way that God and religion become among the most powerful tools for helping the brain do its thing—self-maintenance and self-transcendence. Unless there is a fundamental change in how our brain works, God will be around for a very long time.”
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About which god are you referring, Charles?
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An examination of what the brain processes actually do – the order in which ‘things’ are done by the brain – is in direct contradiction of the claim that ‘god and religion’ (whatever that actually means) are “helping the brain do its thing.”
Now, I realize it’s not important to you that actual and demonstrable brain processes can be shown to be so ordered and so I know that what’s actually the case also doesn’t matter to you… as long as you believe you already know what’s the case AND you can find bits and pieces of ‘science’ that appear to support your belief. That’s all that really matters to you: your belief. You know and I know that reality plays no part in any of this and so anything you have to say will always be mitigated first by your beliefs and not reality. As hard as it may be for you to accept, for anyone the least bit interested in finding out what is the case about reality, your bible-thumping beliefs are not the go-to source. Surprising only you, apparently, reality is.
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There you are, Paulie! How are you, anyway??
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“God wants people to believe, but he wants them to believe when they are not being observed, he knows knowledge is only a secondary issue compared with the importance of will and choice. Now if you amend the argument to include these factors it falls to the ground as far as I can see.”
UnkleE,
I still see knowledge of God’s existence as a paramount step in the process because without that we have no reason to try and “do his will” or “align our morals to his” or “surrender our will to him” or whatever you see as important. If we don’t know whether a divine creator being even exists, I really don’t see how we can possibly try and figure out anything about him or what he might want from us.
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Hi keithnoback. I’m sorry, but I don’t understand what you are saying in your last comment.
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“He just didn’t see a need to list these non-religious organizations. “
Ken, I think this is untrue and unfair. I have consistently pointed out, both in previous discussion with you, and now here, that there are other factors involved other than religious belief and practice. While it is true technically that I didn’t mention those specific organisations, I have always made the broad qualifier. You statement is making an inference to dishonesty that is itself quite dishonest. I am honestly surprised and disappointed in you.
The fact is that religious belief and practice is one of the most significant correlatives with happiness, mental health and prosociality.
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unkleE, I take great displeasure you lecturing me like a little (sunday) school boy. You know what I say is true. It matters not what peer reviewed reports you use, your tendency is to quote only the parts that support your religious agenda. I make no apologies for pointing this out.
“While it is true technically that I didn’t mention those specific organisations, I have always made the broad qualifier. ”
The broad qualifier means nothing in the grand scheme of things. And then when you have been called out, you turn into a martyr.
I stand by my statements. You can’t have it both ways.
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But your point, Unkle E, is that it is religion that bestows the benefit, when in fact it is the sense of belonging to a community. This sense of community is not what you advertise time and time again; it is the religious aspect you continue to assert provides the benefit and use the study as if that is what it concludes. That’s dishonest.
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Oh, but he thinks he does. That’s why in spite of this correction and many others I’ve made he’ll continue as he always has using this study and a mountain of others just like it to give his religious beliefs the facade of scientific respectability and bulldoze anyone who dares question him with a hundred links and hurt feelings that anyone could think poorly of this tactic because, hey, he’s such a nice guy. Ernest, too.
That is UnkleE’s modus operandi and he uses it everywhere he goes on the web. Correcting him is a waste of time if you want effect on his continued dishonesty; the effect that is much more important is on other readers to beware for cause, and quite properly so. Equate the name UnkleE with scientific misrepresentation.
Good job.
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From unkleE’s own blog,
“Ken aka kcchief1 says
22 March, 2015 at 11:14 am
“Researchers, including Koenig, say there are limitations to the conclusions anyone should draw from these studies. It could be that people who attend religious services benefit from the social network they form.”
I think you will find there are numerous studies which show the benefits that social networks provide including but not limited to attending Church.
Here in the States they would include Masons, Shriners, Elks Club, Moose Club, American Legion, etc. etc.
unkleE says
22 March, 2015 at 9:57 pm
Hi Ken, all true, but the results still stand – on average, religious believers have better wellbeing than average.”
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Here is unkleE’s post I am referring to. Even though he had to admit (above) during this blog that other social networks provided health benefits as well, no where that I can find in HIS post where he mentions this.
http://www.is-there-a-god.info/blog/life/do-religious-believers-have-better-health-and-wellbeing-like-really/
I would like for others to read his post (above) and decide for yourself if unkleE was “shading the truth”
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“religious believers have better wellbeing than average.”
Except when they don’t.
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