For the past few months, my wife and I have been meeting periodically with some family members to discuss our religious differences. The conversations have been interesting.
When we tried this during our deconversion six years ago, it didn’t go well. Emotions were simply way too high. This time around, we’ve all come to accept the status quo, so there’s less pressure on both sides. The conversations have gotten heated at times, but nothing like they used to. Overall, I feel like they’ve been going pretty well, though I don’t think any positions have been changed, and I don’t expect them to.
Most of you know that my wife and I once believed the Bible was completely inerrant, and this was pretty much the consensus of everyone at our congregation. The Bible’s flaws had a lot to do with our leaving Christianity, and I tend to refer to them any time I’m discussing religion with someone. But these family members have reacted to this in a way that I don’t really understand, and that’s what I want to talk through in this post.
Example 1
In one of our meetings, I suggested that we look at an example of something that I think is a contradiction in the Bible, so I pointed their attention to the two different accounts of Judas’s death. I’ll give a brief synopsis of the problems here, but if you’d like to read about it in detail, check out this post.
The gospels tell us that Judas, Jesus’s most infamous disciple, betrayed him for 30 pieces of silver. In the Gospel of Matthew, Judas brings that money back to the chief priests, because he regrets what he’s done. They refuse to take it, so he throws it at their feet, leaves, and hangs himself. There’s no indication that the priests ever found out what happened to him, but because the 30 pieces of silver are blood money (a bribe to take Jesus’s life), they decide not to put it back in the treasury. Instead, they buy a field with it and use it as a cemetery for strangers. That field comes to be called “Field of Blood,” because of the money used to buy it.
In Acts, we get a completely different story. There, Judas uses the money to buy a field for himself. Somehow, while he’s in the field, he falls, ruptures his abdomen, and bleeds to death. Again, the field comes to be called “Field of Blood,” but now it’s because Judas bled to death all over it. There’s no indication that it was used to bury strangers.
We talked about a number of the discrepancies between those two accounts, but I mostly focused on Matthew’s claim that all of this fulfilled a prophecy “spoken by the prophet Jeremiah.” The problem is that the prophecy Matthew quotes can’t be found in Jeremiah. The closest passage is in the book of Zechariah. My family members didn’t immediately know how to answer that problem, which is completely fine — it deserves research.
So in the next meeting, one of them said he had read an article where someone argues that Matthew says “spoken by the prophet Jeremiah” because Jeremiah literally spoke it, but didn’t necessarily write it down. I found that explanation really disappointing. First of all, if that were the case, why would Matthew mention it? He shouldn’t have even known about it, but we could get around that by saying that God gave him the information through revelation. The real problem is that it would be meaningless to his audience. Stating that an event fulfills a prophecy is offering a piece of evidence. It’s making the argument that this event falls neatly into God’s plan. But when the prophecy can’t be found, it ceases to be evidence. It ceases to make a point at all, unless it’s the point that I’m making: Matthew made a mistake.
But there’s an even clearer problem. The writer of Matthew didn’t just write this one section, he wrote an entire book. And it turns out that “spoken by the prophet ______” is a pretty common phrase of his. He uses it in Matthew 1:22, but goes on to quote a passage from Isaiah 7:14. In Matthew 2:17, he uses the phrase to refer to Jeremiah 31:15 (the very same prophet he refers to when talking about Judas). In Matthew 3:3, he uses the phrase to refer to Isaiah 40:3. We just found 3 examples within the first 3 chapters of Matthew. When he says “spoken by the prophet,” he still means that it was recorded as a prophecy.
These are the points I presented, but my family remained unconvinced. How is that possible?
Example 2
That same night, I offered another example. I told them that the synoptic gospels claim Jesus was crucified on Passover, but John’s gospel claims that it was the day before. Again, if you’d like more information on this one, check out this post. After we looked at all the passages, they didn’t have anything to say. Again, I get that. It’s surprising stuff to see when you think the Bible is inspired. And I also don’t expect them to suddenly change their minds. They need time to study it and think about it. So that’s how we left it.
We usually try to meet every Friday or so, but we didn’t meet again for 7 weeks. Last Friday, we finally got back together, and when I brought back up how we had left things, they said that they hadn’t had time to look into the issues surrounding the day of Jesus’s death. That simply makes no sense to me.
Again, they attend a congregation where virtually everyone there would say that the Bible is inerrant. So pointing out a potential contradiction should motivate them to go into deep-study mode. But it didn’t. Even if they aren’t bothered by the implications of a contradiction, we are. And since they believe we’re bound for an eternal Hell, you’d think that would inspire them to study the issue.
So I backtracked a bit and told them that I didn’t really understand why they wouldn’t have made time for this in 7 weeks. I suggested that perhaps they didn’t think the Bible needed to be inerrant. If that was the case, then I could see why they wouldn’t be bothered by the two examples I brought up. But they didn’t really commit to a position on inerrancy either way. I’m not sure how much they’ve thought about it before.
What’s behind this?
College football is huge down here, and these members of my family are die-hard Alabama fans. They always have been. But as much as they love Alabama, they wouldn’t pretend that Alabama is objectively the right team to pull for. Sure, they could talk about how well Alabama plays, and they could talk about how great a coach Nick Saban is, but they know that a Tennessee fan isn’t going to be “converted” to Alabama by those arguments. And those aren’t even the reasons why they’re fans to begin with. One’s love for a sports team is a subjective thing. You love them simply because you love them.
But when it comes to religious beliefs, those are truth claims. As such, they should have evidence that shows why they’re objectively true. But I’ve started to realize that many people, like my family, belong to a particular religion for the same reasons that they follow a sports team. It’s just what they know.
In these discussions, my family members only know that my wife and I have to be wrong. When we bring up issues with the Bible or Christianity, they don’t really have a response, but that doesn’t seem to bother them. When we’ve asked if they think the Bible should be inerrant or not, they don’t really say. When we ask why they believe it, they mostly appeal to how it makes them feel personally. If they had more substantial evidence, they would offer it. But they don’t believe for the same reasons that I believed. If I had been asked why I believed the Bible was inspired, I would have begun talking about its prophecies and amazing consistency. I would have been wrong, but only out of ignorance — not because I hadn’t thought about it. Truth claims require evidence.
To be fair…
This is a pretty critical post about some people that I love. While I find their outlook to be confusing and frustrating, I do appreciate that they care enough about us to pursue these discussions. My wife and I didn’t instigate them — our family did. So that’s definitely a point in their favor. I don’t expect for either of our views to change, but that doesn’t mean it’s impossible. Right now, I don’t think they’re considering the possibility that they could be wrong. If they would be open-minded about that, then who knows where things could go? After all, the basic facts are’t all that complicated: the Bible says what it says. On the surface, it’s very clear that it has inconsistencies and inaccuracies. The only question is what that might mean. When someone says they know who the creator of the universe is and that they know his plan, they should have some way to demonstrate it. Facts matter.
“It has really helped…and is a hell of a lot cheaper than a psychiatrist!”
Isn’t that the truth, I found it to be a beneficial tool, although some people do benefit from professional counseling, if they can find a secular therapist who understands the complexities of religious indoctrination and deconversion.
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The other doctrine I found hard to eliminate, Gary, was the one about Satan (the two sort of go together). Fortunately, I did a LOT of research for my book and discovered things that finally helped me get past my fears. Here is a post that I wrote earlier this year in which I debunk the belief.
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Nan I was reading through your Satan posts and noticed many comments from our dear departed, and sadly missed, friend Arch.
It is a bit like Ark mentioned above, a bit surreal reading his comments on earlier blog posts.
As Arch would say when some people confused him and Ark:
The sad thing is that shortly before he died Arch had agreed to put back up his website, which so many of us had been asking for.
I was just thinking, surely it was not God striking him dead before he could do this, as his website apparently contained detailed evidence against religion. {by the way I am joking in regard to this last paragraph}
Having said all this I don’t miss the dickhead song.
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Hey Peter, makagutu and I have been working on reposting Arch’s old site. It’s been slow going, and I really need to get some more of the posts up there. But if you’d like to check out what we have so far, you can find it here:
https://ourownimage.wordpress.com/
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Nate that is a wonderful tribute by you and Mak.
I had a look seemed like there were currently 6 posts on the site. Would that be correct?
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Yeah, that’s it so far. It’s been a few weeks since I’ve posted one. I’ll try to get a couple more up before Thanksgiving.
I’ve thought about writing a “screen-scraper” application to get all the old content and post it for me, but I’m not sure how much time it would save me in the end. There are a lot of parameters I’d have to account for to make sure it worked as thoroughly as I would need it to.
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I hope it’s okay to chime in this late in the conversation, but these are questions that do not go away, and it makes me so happy and hopeful to see people taking them on so unflinchingly.
Back when I followed Christianity, and, more specifically, evangelicalism, these questions would pop up pretty regularly only to be quickly dismissed. It’s what you have to do to stay the course, so to speak. Even as a “believer” I had trouble with that exact point that you bring up: How could I possibly be happy in heaven knowing that people I know and love are being endlessly tormented in hell? Being unable to reconcile this – along with the endless string of other discrepancies – the day came when the only thing to do was throw up my hands, walk away, and begin the process of learning to make peace with being unable to, in all good conscience, continue to identify as a Christian.
To some degree, I have come to accept that, for the remainder of my life, there will always be a great portion of people who have no problem with what I found to be cognitive dissonance. It’s like that good friend who got in a bad relationship and refuses to see that it’s unhealthy. All of the efforts to convince the person of it seem to be wasted breath and energy. It’s heartbreaking and disappointing to see what’s becoming of a dear friend, but it seems they are in it because it’s familiar, it’s what they know and have come to expect out of life. There’s nothing that anybody else can do for that person so long as he/she is allowing that situation to be found as satisfactory. They’ll either continue to stay satisfied in it, no matter how incredulous it may be that they find it so, or they’ll begin to wonder if there could be something else, something more, and then the process begins to unfold of exploring the possibilities.
Walking away has been a lonely and often sad road, but once the genie is out of the bottle, as they say, there’s no putting it back in.
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“I was just someone to convert or bring back to Christ in their eyes.” Ugh! That was one of the suckiest things about being a Christian: only being able to see people through the filter of whether saved or unsaved, and if saved, whether the right kind of saved. I missed so much of the beauty that humanity as to offer. Sad.
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Hi Julie. I hope you don’t mind a complete stranger jumping in, especially so long after this conversation was started, but I just found this blog today.
I so relate to what you’re going through!! Even though I’ve decided that the bible is merely a human book of very human experiences with a myriad of ways to approach situations and make sense of them, the notion that there is a God or otherness or just something other than myself and my fellow humans persists and will not let go. I have no way to prove is disprove the existence or non-existence of God – and neither does anyone else that I’ve come across.
At this juncture, what I’ve come to decide is to explore is the possibility that whatever it is that God is or isn’t cannot be defined in the way that the Judeo/Christian tradition has attempted. If God does exist, somebody got it wrong as to what we can reasonably expect of him/her/it/all/nothing/what-have-you. Man has created God in his own image: “I said it and God agrees, so that settles it.” …. Except, so far as I’ve found, God isn’t any of those things that pretty much anybody has said he/she/it/what-have-you is. So that changes the game. Suddenly, God is not obligated to reveal himself/herself/etc. God is like me. It’s my prerogative to reveal myself to others or not to reveal myself – and it’s my prerogative to decide who I will reveal myself to and who I absolutely will not – and I reserve the right to change my mind, even if that means I’ll change it one thousand times in a day! It’s my prerogative to interact with people or not to interact, and it’s my prerogative to decide exactly how I will interact. I’ll do what I like, when I like, how I like…that much I’ve been able to pretty well count on for as long as I’ve been alive, lol. Why shouldn’t God be given freewill too? If God does exist, we’ve been mighty unfair in all that we’ve demanded of him/her/it/what-have-you.
So, anyway, that’s just a little bit of where I am in my journey. I wish you all good things in yours, your journey, that is.
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Hi Nate! I found your blog tonight and am a little late to the party, but I guess you’ll be noticing various replies I’ve left to people’s comments. I, like you, have decided to seek truth and to be as honest as possible about where that search leads. Most of what I’ve done thus far is sort through what I don’t believe. I haven’t sorted through enough of it to really see what’s left, but I am embracing the process. I got a little over halfway through the comments to this post and am looking forward to finishing the rest after I’ve had a chance to get some sleep. I’ve been up all night reading and reacting, and it’s time to let my brain rest.
Thank you for this blog.
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Thanks facebookbyebye! I really appreciate your comments, and I look forward to seeing you around here! Feel free to comment on any posts whenever you like — no comment thread is too old. Well, let me give a caveat: when I first started this blog, I was a Christian, so my earliest posts reflect that. I’ve closed comments on those, because I no longer believe what I wrote then anyway. But any posts you see on here from 2011 on are open for discussion. 🙂
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