Lately I’ve been reading The Bittersweet End, and I’ve been quite engrossed in the way his story is unfolding. He began the blog as a place to gather his thoughts about a few doubts he was dealing with. Over the last year, he has moved further and further away from belief, until he now pretty much considers himself an atheist. He has just recently talked to his wife and his pastor about it (he’s still attending church), and it’s been very moving to hear about those experiences through his writing. It’s reminded me of my own de-conversion.
I started this blog almost 6 years ago. That’s a pretty good life for a blog — I don’t often run across any that are that old. In fact, it’s made it impractical for me to display my archives without a drop-down; it would just take up too much space. But it’s not like I’ve blogged constantly through all that time. In 2007, I went back to school and got a 2nd Bachelor’s degree. I didn’t complete it until December of 2008, so you’ll notice that I didn’t really blog anything that whole year. 2009 saw a little more activity, but barely. I only made 3 posts that year, and I posted nothing in 2010. So I essentially had a 3-year hiatus from this blog. What happened in the meantime to make my return in 2011 a complete reversal from my original approach?
Well, like I said, I was in school during 2008, plus I was still working full time and I had 2 young children. Blogging just had to take a back seat. But 2008 also saw Barack Obama’s historic election to President of the US. I’m a Democrat, and I have been for a long time. But living in the South and associating with conservative Christians, you tend to be inundated with Republican talking points. It’s not that I have anything against Republicans. I just sometimes have trouble understanding why conservative Christians identify with them so much right now. And during the 2008 election, that stood out to me more and more. I often heard my Christian friends (and I was a Christian too at this point) talk badly about efforts to provide universal health care, for instance. They were against abortion, yet they didn’t support welfare programs that would help take care of the mothers and babies once they’ve been born. I had trouble squaring that with what Jesus said here:
Then the righteous will answer him, saying, “Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?” And the King will answer them, “Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.”
– Matt 25:37-40
I felt that their position ran counter to Christian values. I was really bothered by that experience, but I wasn’t naive enough to blame Christianity itself when these were just faults in its adherents. However, I was part of a denomination known as the church of Christ. They believe they are the one true church that Christ established on the Day of Pentecost. Since the CoC thinks it’s the one true example of Christianity in the world, they believe that virtually everyone else is going to Hell. By the time 2008 rolled around, I no longer agreed with them on that. But I still thought God had a high standard set for salvation, and I still believed in a literal Hell. So when I saw how the group of Christians that claimed to follow Christ more closely than anyone seemed more concerned with keeping their taxes low than with helping those less fortunate, it became hard to rationalize how they could be on God’s good side. It was also hard to see how the “heretics and heathens” that did try to help the less fortunate could be going to Hell.
And it didn’t stop with social issues. Members of the CoC are often known for their extensive Bible knowledge. That’s admirable. But there were still many in the congregations who obviously didn’t think deeply about their beliefs or doctrines. Many of them had just been raised in the church and didn’t seem to know very much about why they believed what they believed. Of course, that’s a common problem in any denomination. But since the CoC takes the position that others will go to Hell for not understanding Christianity more perfectly, what would happen with those casual members in the CoC? Would they be found acceptable just because they were in the right version of Christianity? If so, isn’t that unfair to all the other casual members of any other denomination? And if the CoC is really the one right version of Christianity, but its casual members aren’t saved, then just imagine how small the number of saved will be.
In early May of 2008, the country of Myanmar (or Burma) was devastated by a tsunami. Over 138,000 people died. I was really bothered by that event. Myanmar is a very poor country, and almost 90% of the population is Buddhist. According to my Christian beliefs, almost every one of those 138,000 people went to Hell, after living in poverty and dying in a horrific manner. Why would God allow that?
My thought processes during this time showed me that according to my beliefs, the vast, vast majority of people who had ever lived were going to Hell. That’s a pretty bleak picture. Surely God wouldn’t be okay with that scenario. So I began studying about Hell to see if I had misunderstood what the Bible said about it.
I’ll talk more about that in the next post.
Finding Truth 
I’m so glad we can have a meeting of the minds. I’m open to anyone who wants to jump in. Unfortunately, I have 2 days of 13 hours each ahead of me. I do security work. So I just wanted you to know it will be Thursday before I likely get back to this. As I’m sure Nate knows, Christianity is not about “good” people. I agree, there are plenty of “good” people unbelievers, and plenty of believers who still fall into stupidity. But I know there is something deeper here than just good and bad, smart and stupid. I admit it will likely be a challenge to explore this. I hope I can at least present a reasonable case for whatever it is. But it is too important to rush, so I look forward to Thursday. Based on both of your responses so far, I think we can have good discussions. There is an idiot in every crowd, but ya just gotta luv’m anyway. One or two may show up, but we all have our moments. I think we all still believe in grace. So, I’ll be back soon, most likely Thursday.
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@thee encounter “Yes, I am against anything that “promotes” abortion and homosexuality”
homosexuality and abortion have nothing to do with each other.
in reality you are just another “god hates fags” phony christian.
@thee encounter “There is an idiot in every crowd”
that would be you.
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paul, you may be correct, but thee didnt say that he hated or was cruel to homosexuals, or that he even understood why such a thing was wrong. I realize this may be of little comfort to you, but some christians believe homosexuality is wrong because the bible says so, but they dont necessarily understand or like the categorization.
they may even care very much for all people and want no one to be harmed or doomed to hell, but they, for some reason, find the bible compelling and thus believe that homosexuals will indeed go to hell unless they repent.
I dont know what he thinks, and since i’m not homosexual, i suppose it is easier for me to reserve judgement, so i’ll say no more.
just thought i’d add another possibility.
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and is that richard nixon on the left?
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William,
thee n counter equated homosexuals with abortion in the same sentence..
abortion is entirely a heterosexual thing.
it’s the same type of thing when people put homosexuals in the same category as pedophiles and bestiality.
doesn’t fly with me. it is an attack on who I am.
furthermore, I know of hundreds of gay people that have adopted children of heterosexual dysfunctional families.
thee n counter says “I am also for helping the children of these dysfunctional families,”
oh really!!!!!!!!,
I wonder how many of those children has he adopted?
how much money does he give to help these children?,
does he take in foster children?
or does he just brag on the internet on how much he cares and complain about paying taxes for government programs that actually do help?
I would really like to know how much he actually “helps”.
I think it’s all probably just a lot of lip service.
it does look like Nixon a bit, doesn’t it.
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anyway, now that he has shared with us his political views,
let’s see how well he stands up debating the flawed bible.
Holey Ghost this ought to be good.
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yeah, your points sound better than mine when laid out like that…
it really is crazy that people get so violently upset over something consenting adults do, which has zero affect on anyone else…
that and I dont recall reading where pedophilia is condemned in the bible. Let’s kill the gays, but let a 45 year old man impregnate an 11 year old girl… it’s just insane.
sorry.
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no need to be sorry. your point was valid. 🙂
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Don’t be sorry, William – pointing out the ‘truths’ in the wholly babble is the only way to illustrate the contents of a Bronze-Age myth.
‘Thee’ – I’m wondering if you’ve ever perused the Homeschoolers Anonymous blog — since you’re concerned about dysfunctional children, you might want to read the accounts from some who are now dealing with their experiences growing up with Christian ‘we did everything from the Bible’ parents, including spanking the living tar out of those children. I mean, it says so in my least favourite fiction and all. (Nate, I understand why you trot out the, “it IS in the Bible” line, but honestly – sensible people know when something is just plain wrong – you know, like BEATING children?) It’s an explanation, not an excuse.
I’m also wondering, ‘Thee’, if you know any gay people. I happen to know many and most of them have children – fully functional, ‘well-rounded’ (nice catchphrase, eh?), wonderful people they’ve grown up to be, too.
My third ‘wonder’ in this comment is this, ‘Thee’ – just what, in your mind, ‘promotes’ abortion? On that note, you might be reminded that nothing ‘promotes’ homosexuality – a person either is or isn’t. Or did someone/something ‘promote’ your heterosexuality?
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I’m still on my work marathon, but I can see a lot of you just want to vent your disagreements with the Bible. Go ahead and disagree all you want. I didn’t write it. I can also see you have not read any of my blog site. I was a youth minister many years, have given lots of money, raised five children of my own, have a best friend who is gay, did a yard sale for months to help a guy fight cancer, gave him all 1600 dollars of the money cash, the list could go on and on but… why? You guys all ready know it all anyway. I can see. And I simply said I do not “promote” 2 items. Sorry if I did not put them in separate sentences. What a bigot I must be. Yup, I’m the idiot for even trying this.
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You know, I think a lot of this just comes down to miscommunication. Thee-n-counter, I’m sorry some of the comments here offended you. I hope you’ll consider hanging around for our conversation.
TNC, I understand that you meant no offense to anyone with your initial comment. Like William said, I think you view homosexuality merely as something that God has condemned, whether you understand all the reasons for it or not. I completely understand that point of view — it’s identical to the one I used to hold.
At the same time, I can see where Paul is coming from too. I can’t imagine some of the difficulties and discrimination he’s faced over the years, simply for being gay. It would be hard to put up with the bigotry, ignorance, and hate that’s spewed by so many people. And if it were me, I know I’d be on edge, just waiting for someone to say the wrong thing.
So if I’m right at all in my assessment, I can see how things quickly went off track. Maybe it’s not too late to salvage the conversation?
As to the Bible, I’m happy to discuss any parts of it. We may not come to an agreement, and that’s okay. Honest, sincere people can come to different conclusions about it. You may not be bothered by the same things that bother me.
And sorry I haven’t had time to click over to your blog. I just haven’t had time to keep up with other blogs lately. Talk to you soon, I hope! 🙂
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thanks Carmen and Nate for having my back. I hope everyone noticed I refrained from being a potty mouth as to not scare thee n counter away.
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thee n counter, I did read some of your blog.
http://t5.rbxcdn.com/3bb4651a6cf55457116204e09cb557b3
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and thee, it wasn’t necessary for you to point out that you didn’t write the bible,
we are all fully aware of that.
but who do you believe wrote the bible?
well, according to your blog,
https://theencounter01.wordpress.com/x-superman/
this is what you believe:
now, in an earlier comment on this blog you stated, “The Bible teaches that a country that refuses to acknowledge God will basically have fools for leaders.”
did you know that the bible also teaches
“When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property.” (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)?
or that it is the law to kill non-believers?
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
or how about this gem?
(Deuteronomy 20:10-14)
As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.
What kind of God approves of murder, rape, and slavery?
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I think these are excellent questions. Thee, I would agree that the Bible claims to speak for God, but why should we trust it, especially in light of the issues Paul just mentioned?
Thanks
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when i was a christian, i would have been tempted to point out that those are from the OT and not the NT, which we fall under now, but that’s dodging the issue.
The NT says it follows the god of the OT. the OT is admissible evidence and it contains some pretty questionable accounts of god’s actions… nate’s correct, how and why should the authors of the bible, whether OT or NT, be trusted?
what reason is there to have faith in their account of god or the supernatural?
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It’s always stood out to me that Thomas Paine took those OT passages that are so abhorrent and argued that ascribing such stuff to God was blasphemy. Sort of turns the problem on its head.
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thee-n-counter,
I understand that you use the Bible as your guide for life. Seeing it as inspired revelation from God. Would anything change for you if it was discovered that many of the Bible’s claims simply didn’t happen, or that books were not actually written by whom the Bible claims it was.
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@TNC:
“Yup, I’m the idiot for even trying this.”
What are you even trying to do? Convince people here that Bible is true, God is real?
If that is really what you are trying to do here I think you have one crazy big ego, or perhaps that is the “holy spirit guiding you” to write here thing.
How about you go and read the comments in just the past 2-3 posts and see the depth and width of discussion we already had, rather than jumping in and thinking you can simply offer something new and assuming that the reasons we do not believe in the Bible is due to us reading wrongly, believing in the wrong god, followed wrong teachings, just want to sin etc etc etc.
Btw you are not the first theist we’ve seen, and unlikely to be the last. That being said, do stick around and hopefully you do have a fresh perspective to share.
Good luck, you will need it.
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Alas, I was one of those theist not too long ago myself. I came here to learn why Nate had chosen his path, figuring I could find some error in the author’s reasoning and help him to see it another way. I’ve learned more from this site and other’s like it in the last 6 months than I have in the previous 6 years. Knowledge is power, dangerous power…
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Very true, Matt. As cartoons taught me long ago, “knowing is half the battle.” 😉
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Okay, lets take the Old Testament first. You should fear it. It is God not pulling any punches. It is God’s word warning us that he will judge sin an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. Sending a soul to hell is even worse than destroying a body and the things we read in the O.T.. The New Testament tells us that day will come. The O.T. is meant to show us we cannot save ourself, cannot live up to God’s laws of perfection, and Jesus confirmed it all. Jesus said he came to fulfill the law for us, but the law has not passed away. Anyone rejecting Christ will stand before the God of the O.T. and pay the price for their sin themselves. It will be an eye for an eye and it never ends. You should fear the God whose possession all of creation is. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom as I’m sure you know is written. You will notice God makes no apologies for the O.T, not even as Jesus. In the world of eternity sin brings forth death. It is a leprosy and God will protect his creation. This place does not belong to us. We are like “renters” in God’s creation. You think the O.T. disproves God, but wisdom says it proves him even more. You should take those judgments in the O.T. very personal. God intends for you to. But you believe a God of love contradicts the God of the O.T.. Very bad assumption. Then you believe you would rather go to hell than serve a God who judges sin. Very bad choice. It’s God’s world and we don’t have the big picture of heaven. I love my dog but she still can’t add 2+2. I’ll do the adding for her, IF SHE WILL LET ME, BECAUSE I KNOW SHE CAN’T, AND WE FALL SHORT OF PERFECTION. WE HAVE LEPROSY. WE CONTAMINATE EVRYTHING WE TOUCH. BUT JESUS FULFILLS THE LAW FOR US, IF WE LET HIM. AND ALL IT TAKES IS SIMPLE FAITH THAT CHANGES YOUR LIFE.
If it doesn’t change your life, then it’s not the faith of God. Yes, a lot of people died in the O.T.. Want to talk about Sodom and Gomorah? The direction we’re headed again. Want to talk about those fallen angels that mated with women in the days of Noah? Want to talk about the flood? Do you want to talk about the first earth that was destroyed by water, (not Noah’s flood), and this is a second earth, a restored earth, and that is why science keeps coming up with items dating millions of years old? Or the fact that God likes the number 3, and there will be a third earth?
If any of you can see that Jesus, and the N.T., confirms the God of the O.T. and warns us to flee to his salvation, and that he is the ONLY way, because he is the ONLY one who ever FULFILLED God’s laws, thus satisfying the debt of our sins owed. If any of you can see that much, then we could go to other things. But…
Well, I won’t prejudge. Yes. To our way of thinking, the God of the O.T. sounds horrible, but we do not understand how horrible our sinful stench is in God’s creation. My dog got direah one night and lost it all over my house. The stench was awful! If she continued in that, guess what, she wouldn’t be living in my house! I don’t care how much I love her. I would try to reason with her, train her, but if she proved unwilling to learn? With sadness in my heart, out she would go.
You may think that a silly illustration, but actually our sin is even much worse. God is spirit. He showed up in flesh and planted the seed of salvation. It has grown into a mighty tree. Faith is very spiritual. It speaks to our heart and soul. It does not need anymore proof than a bird needs proof of the wind. We have more than enough proof. If you feel no drawing from God, then perhaps your day of salvation has passed you. Or maybe you do feel that drawing but just aren’t willing to admit it to yourself. I won’t speak of prayer because I do not want to insult you. But I hope you feel that drawing someday, no man come to God without it. Scripture says the measure of faith has been given to every man. I don’t know what you have done with the measure God gave you? Maybe you placed it in evolution, or just believing in yourself. It’s your choice.
I’ve given you a good explanation of the God of the O.T., and the purpose of it. It’s meant to show you that the Ten Commandments only proves us guilty, not innocent. Guilty, and worthy of eternal judgment, but God has offered to fix our poor choice to believe Satan and his lies. And there is another thing you would have to admit, that Satan and his fallen spiritual world is real, and he is behind a lot of the things you believe. There is much evidence for all these things, and the God of the O.T., the Creator of all, is very alive and well. JESUS CAME TO RESTORE FELLOWSHIP BETWEEN US AND OUR CREATOR. HE IS THE CREATOR. HE OWNS IT ALL. YOU DID NOT CREATE YOURSELF. AND NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU DON’T LIKE THIS, OR REFUSE TO BELIEVE IT, IT’S STILL TRUE.
Even now everything prophesied concerning Israel continues to play out like a movie before us. But I do not believe the rapture is near. There is much to happen yet. You are surrounded by evidence like a fish in water, but you have to actually want to know the truth, whether it fulfills your desires or not. I was addicted to porno. God’s word said my desire was very wrong. Like a pig wallowing in muck. It was not easy and I had a few years of up and down battles, but God knew I was trying, and the more of him I soaked up, the more free I became, until I was totally free. My wife never knew until I was free. I hid it from everyone, as you can imagine, until I was free. As a hetero sexual man, of course I have strong desire to enjoy a beautiful naked woman. It comes natural for me, but God said I was wrong and must change. God accepted my feeble beginning efforts and we worked from there. God will meet you wherever you are too, but then he expects you to follow him. Not the other way around.
Now you have a choice to respond to this information in a reasonable, honest, and honorable way. I don’t know if our conversation can go farther? If you can’t find peace with God as revealed in the O.T.. Then we can’t go any farther, because he is all that, and much much more.
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Hi thee,
I feel like you’ve jumped light years ahead of where we should be starting. You’ve asserted a lot of things, about the truth of the OT, about Satan being real, etc, etc, but you haven’t demonstrated why anyone should accept any of those claims. Sure, the Bible does say many of the things you’re relaying, but so what? And I don’t mean that flippantly — I really don’t. I’m asking you, why should we care what the Bible says? How do we know it’s any more reliable than the Book of Mormon or the Qur’an?
You also compared our relationship to God to your relationship with your dog. And I get that — I think it’s a pretty good analogy. Let’s look at this section in particular:
I’m with you. I couldn’t live with that either. So what would you do with her? Burn her alive? Or maybe start removing body parts, one inch at a time? Or do you think you’d try to get her some help? Maybe take her to a vet for treatment? Or if that didn’t work, find another place for her to live? And if the vet told you that she has a terminal illness and is experiencing an intolerable amount of pain, what would you do then? Make sure she suffers as much as possible, or humanely end her life quickly and as peacefully as possible?
I think we have to consider that part of the analogy as well, especially if you believe in any kind of punishment for unbelievers. The thing about dogs is that most of us realize they aren’t humans. They’re not going to care about or understand the things we’re concerned with. It follows that any compassionate god would deal with us in the same way. Yet that’s not the picture we usually get from the Bible.
Thoughts?
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@powellpowers,
you’re right, he has a very big ego.
I read some of his blog,
he thinks he is “batman” for jesus.
really.
and the holey ghost speaks to him.
he thinks he is a pen in the hand of god.
tee-hee-hee.
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i caught this on pbs last nite,
the bibles buried secrets, very interesting.
who wrote the bible?????????
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