Lately I’ve been reading The Bittersweet End, and I’ve been quite engrossed in the way his story is unfolding. He began the blog as a place to gather his thoughts about a few doubts he was dealing with. Over the last year, he has moved further and further away from belief, until he now pretty much considers himself an atheist. He has just recently talked to his wife and his pastor about it (he’s still attending church), and it’s been very moving to hear about those experiences through his writing. It’s reminded me of my own de-conversion.
I started this blog almost 6 years ago. That’s a pretty good life for a blog — I don’t often run across any that are that old. In fact, it’s made it impractical for me to display my archives without a drop-down; it would just take up too much space. But it’s not like I’ve blogged constantly through all that time. In 2007, I went back to school and got a 2nd Bachelor’s degree. I didn’t complete it until December of 2008, so you’ll notice that I didn’t really blog anything that whole year. 2009 saw a little more activity, but barely. I only made 3 posts that year, and I posted nothing in 2010. So I essentially had a 3-year hiatus from this blog. What happened in the meantime to make my return in 2011 a complete reversal from my original approach?
Well, like I said, I was in school during 2008, plus I was still working full time and I had 2 young children. Blogging just had to take a back seat. But 2008 also saw Barack Obama’s historic election to President of the US. I’m a Democrat, and I have been for a long time. But living in the South and associating with conservative Christians, you tend to be inundated with Republican talking points. It’s not that I have anything against Republicans. I just sometimes have trouble understanding why conservative Christians identify with them so much right now. And during the 2008 election, that stood out to me more and more. I often heard my Christian friends (and I was a Christian too at this point) talk badly about efforts to provide universal health care, for instance. They were against abortion, yet they didn’t support welfare programs that would help take care of the mothers and babies once they’ve been born. I had trouble squaring that with what Jesus said here:
Then the righteous will answer him, saying, “Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?” And the King will answer them, “Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.”
– Matt 25:37-40
I felt that their position ran counter to Christian values. I was really bothered by that experience, but I wasn’t naive enough to blame Christianity itself when these were just faults in its adherents. However, I was part of a denomination known as the church of Christ. They believe they are the one true church that Christ established on the Day of Pentecost. Since the CoC thinks it’s the one true example of Christianity in the world, they believe that virtually everyone else is going to Hell. By the time 2008 rolled around, I no longer agreed with them on that. But I still thought God had a high standard set for salvation, and I still believed in a literal Hell. So when I saw how the group of Christians that claimed to follow Christ more closely than anyone seemed more concerned with keeping their taxes low than with helping those less fortunate, it became hard to rationalize how they could be on God’s good side. It was also hard to see how the “heretics and heathens” that did try to help the less fortunate could be going to Hell.
And it didn’t stop with social issues. Members of the CoC are often known for their extensive Bible knowledge. That’s admirable. But there were still many in the congregations who obviously didn’t think deeply about their beliefs or doctrines. Many of them had just been raised in the church and didn’t seem to know very much about why they believed what they believed. Of course, that’s a common problem in any denomination. But since the CoC takes the position that others will go to Hell for not understanding Christianity more perfectly, what would happen with those casual members in the CoC? Would they be found acceptable just because they were in the right version of Christianity? If so, isn’t that unfair to all the other casual members of any other denomination? And if the CoC is really the one right version of Christianity, but its casual members aren’t saved, then just imagine how small the number of saved will be.
In early May of 2008, the country of Myanmar (or Burma) was devastated by a tsunami. Over 138,000 people died. I was really bothered by that event. Myanmar is a very poor country, and almost 90% of the population is Buddhist. According to my Christian beliefs, almost every one of those 138,000 people went to Hell, after living in poverty and dying in a horrific manner. Why would God allow that?
My thought processes during this time showed me that according to my beliefs, the vast, vast majority of people who had ever lived were going to Hell. That’s a pretty bleak picture. Surely God wouldn’t be okay with that scenario. So I began studying about Hell to see if I had misunderstood what the Bible said about it.
I’ll talk more about that in the next post.
Finding Truth 
I love PBS… I’ll check that out, Paul — thanks!
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So much indoctrination.
“It is God’s word…” – false. It is claimed to be the words of a deity, but that is a poorly supported claim. As Nate pointed out, the Muslim’s claim the Quran is from a deity and Mormon’s claim the Book of Mormon is from a deity, but why should we believe them?
“Jesus said…” – false. All we have is a translation of a copy of a copy of what an anonymous author wrote claiming what a man named Jesus said decades after he was dead. Unfortunately we have nothing written down from Jesus and the best we can do is speculate what he may have said that was passed down orally for decades before the writings of the anonymous gospels. There are also many other gospels that claim to speak for Jesus that were deemed heretical by the so-called “orthodox” and have barely survived.
“Do you want to talk about the first earth that was destroyed by water, (not Noah’s flood), and this is a second earth, a restored earth, and that is why science keeps coming up with items dating millions of years old? Or the fact that God likes the number 3, and there will be a third earth?” – What is your source for this?
“And there is another thing you would have to admit, that Satan and his fallen spiritual world is real” – false. This is as much a fact as the myths of any other tribe or nation. How would you feel if I said that Loki was real and that you should admit it?
“HE IS THE CREATOR” – false. You believe he is the creator, there’s a big difference. Asserting it as a fact does not make it more true. Please provide some evidence.
“Now you have a choice to respond to this information in a reasonable, honest, and honorable way.”
You haven’t really given us any information, just lots of your own opinions. At least now we know where you stand on the issue and what your conception of “god” looks like. Everyone has their own version of “god” – yours is just a bit more barbaric than some of the other theists that visit Nate’s blog.
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lol, Dave.
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Hi thee-in-counter, welcome.
As I read your last, lengthy comment about the OT and basically stating that we should fear your god, I immediately thought about this scripture:
This is how it came across to me — your intent — and that you may just “shake the dust off your feet” now — you’ve done your part and once again, saved yourself. It’s a common practice among theist who are not open to listen and learn from unbelievers. It’s a great excuse they use once they’ve been taken out of their comfort zone. I hope I’m wrong. I guess we’ll find out should you sincerely want to have dialog here. Most of us have been where you’ve been.
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Well said, Victoria.
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yeah, thee, I’d have to agree with everyone else. most of us know what the bible says, as most of us were once devout christians, so telling us what the bible says doesnt help us believe it.
It’s not that we believe, but are simply unaware of what the bible says, it’s that we dont find it believable. It’s that we cant seem to reconcile the problems within the bible. We cant get over the inconsistency, nor the scientific or historical problems. We cant juggle the intellectual problems any longer.
Imagine what it would take to convince you that Zeus was real or Muhammad was an actual prophet of god, or that Joseph Smith really translated golden plates of god… That’s what you might want to do to convince any here that the bible is really from god, like it’s human authors have claimed.
And like has been said, it’s not faith in god that you have as much as it is faith in the men who wrote it, copied it, translated it, compiled and told you about it. How could it be faith in god when everything you know about god was provided by another man? isnt that faith in what those men said and did about god?
and are we like dogs in the eyes of god, or sons and daughters? and really, god made us and he made the bugs that cause diarrhea, so maybe he shouldn’t be too surprised when we squirt in our shorts every once in a while.
and here’s an analogy that I believe has merit:
a father tells his daughter that he loves her and that he wants her to make an honest decision between 2 options.
1) she can stay with her father her whole life, and do everything he asks of her, and if she does, she’ll receive a sizable inheritance one day.
2) she can leave if she likes and do as she likes
He adds, “I want you to be happy, and because I love you, I want you to choose which ever option you want. But know that if you dont choose option #1, i will torture you and kill you. love you sweety, let me know what you decide.”
and really, the above analogy would be more accurate if the options were delivered to a girl, who never knew her father or saw him in person, in a letter written by someone who claimed to know her real father and claimed to be writing on his behalf.
what say you?
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I only have time for one response here. You guys brought up the O.T.. I responded accordingly. Now you want to change the subject? You really think this universe just popped into existence without acknowledging there could possibly slightly maybe be a Creator? And you blaspheme and make fun of him as if that small chance does not even exist? You really are playing the odds, but the odds are not in your favor like you think.
And yes, God is trying to help us. He’s done everything except force us to do the right thing. But God will only suffer OUR stench in HIS creation for so long. Like it or not, if all the prophesies continue to come true, hell is where the stench will be. Israel continues to be His time clock. And yes, the God of the O.T. would have a place for Satan, and he calls it hell. Again, no apologies.
But in answer to what you brought up, I did not dodge the issue, and neither did Jesus. He said nothing would pass from God’s law, and he was here to fulfill it for us. the God of the O.T. will judge unrepented sin, and we will all go to live with the father we have chosen. Maybe that don’t make sense to you, but to me it is extremely logical. I guess you thought God was wrong in the O.T., and I would have to explain it away somehow? It only shows that somewhere along the way you had some poor mentors. Jesus confirmed it all, and his sermon on the mount is a warning to us. Strive to live this way, but trust me to fulfill it for you. I don’t know how much plainer it could be. The whole N.T. confirms the O.T. The wise will seek out salvation with fear and trembling, but you guys aren’t scared of anything, are you? Good luck with that.
Tomorrow, if you like, or not, whatever…please give me “one” question you have and I will attempt to answer. I don’t have every answer, but God has helped me greatly with the important ones, as he will anyone who really wants to know.
Oh, and saintpauleegirrrl. If he wants to be tolerant and respectful to those not like him, then he should know how much his picture of Jesus giving the finger is abhorrent to Christians. So am I to assume this is his true nature? Disrespect, anger, and cruelty? Does the way others have treated us justify how we treat people back? I thought you were better than that.
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Thee-n-counter,
how do you go from ‘existence’ to the ‘bible is from god,’ when there are countless other possible religions (many of which predate the OT and NT), not to mention the many possibilities beyond “creator?”
in other words, how or why do you know/think the bible is actually correct, and actually a product of deity?
William’s one question
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There are deists among us, too, but they’ve also done their homework and turned over every stone to come to the same conclusions, as most of us have here, that the god you fear, Yahweh (Jesus’ daddy), is a myth, like the thousands of other gods that came before him.
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So, a little background about me…
I once held a position very similar to the one you’re espousing. I also believed that God meant what he said in the OT. Slavery? Yes. Doesn’t mean it’s okay today, but God definitely allowed it at one point in time. Genocide? Yep. God doesn’t approve of murder, generally speaking, but he was teaching the Israelites that he requires obedience. When God gives a command, it’s our job to follow it, not to question why. That’s pretty much what the OT was teaching, so that when the NT came along, we’d have those principles in place and could handle a more mature set of laws that governed more of our heart than just physical actions.
There’s more detail I could give, but that’s a general outline of how I viewed it. I feel like we’re similar in that way.
But I then realized something very important: I shouldn’t just assume the Bible is right in everything it’s saying. I mean, I knew that already, but it had been my experience that the Bible was consistent with itself and had actual fulfilled prophecies. I had also heard from Christian scholars that history and archaeology backed up the Bible’s claims, as much as anyone could check. No, what I realized was that I needed to verify those things for myself, not just take someone’s word for it. And when I began looking into it, I realized that I hadn’t been given the full picture. Certain prophecies really hadn’t been fulfilled (like this, and this), some passages were actually contradictory (like this, this, and this), and history and archaeology were at complete odds with scripture in some really troubling ways (like this).
Once I realized that, I also realized that I had accepted some really big claims without thinking them through completely. The scenario that William just laid out for you is one of the best examples I can think of. It’s a great analogy to Christianity, yet we’d all think a person who acted that way was insane or evil. Why not God?
Also, you said this:
I think you misunderstand the atheist position. No one here is saying that there’s no possibility that a Creator exists. We’re saying that there’s not enough evidence to say the Judeo-Christian god exists. That’s a huge distinction.
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“The wise will seek out salvation with fear and trembling, but you guys aren’t scared of anything, are you?” – thee-n-counter
well, i wouldnt say scared of nuthin.
but I am not scared of zues. i am not scared of the death star or trolls, or vampires or ghosts, or curses, or shadows, or zombies, or anything else that is clearly fictitious.
a few issues with the bible:
1) it’s a bunch of claims about supernatural stuff that have been made and passed along by men.
2) gen 1 & gen 2 get mixed up on where god brought birds from, among other things
3) isaiah prophesied that a young woman would have child in chapter 7 that was born in chapter 8 and then matthew claims he really meant “virgin” when that wasnt the word used and there is no way to verify that mary was a virgin, when having a baby in every other instance proves she wasnt a virgin.
4) Jeremiah says that the medes would destroy and burn babylon – they didnt. the persians took it without much resistance and occupied it, not burning it.
5) ezekiel said that Tyre would be utterly destroyed, left desolate and never rebuilt. It exists today, and was never empty for long, much less forever.
6) matthew mistakenly credits jeremiah for something zechariah said
7) matthew and luke give two opposing genealogies for christ through joseph
8) the holy ghost, through paul, cant accurately remember how long it took for abraham’s promises to be fulfilled.
9) jesus is quoted as saying that seeds must die before they can grow, which is false. if a seed dies, nothing grows.
10) god made the rules of everything, but then made the rule where his son, who was himself, had to die on the cross to save all of mankind, while knowing full well that he was still going to condemen the majority of mankind, while acting like he had no other choice.
11) god loved us all so much, that he have himself die as his son, but couldnt be bothered to actually speak to all of his creation and let them actually know that he was real, instead relying on men to write many books and claims on his behalf, that would have to be differentiated from the other religions books and letters that werent his, because he doesnt want anyone to be mislead and go to hell… the place he also created, along with the keys to that place…
12) there’s plenty more, but the above is just a sample.
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I agree with the issues that William laid out, but thee, I realize there’s no way you could easily cover all of them right away. Right now, you’re sort of “in the lions’ den” since there aren’t any other Christians currently in the conversation, and I don’t want you to feel like you’re being picked on or hit with too many questions to reasonably answer. So feel free to take your time in your response, and we’ll understand that you couldn’t possibly cover everything that’s been dished out over the last couple of hours.
Thanks
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yes batman for jeezzuuusss, I am giving you the finger.
rejoice in your persecution as the bible tells you to do.
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Paul, you make me chuckle, i couldnt help it, but maybe thee-n-counter is relatively new to a lot of this info. he’s been indoctrinated his entire life, and a little empathy may go far, while mockery way be easy to file as way as something coming from uncaring a-holes.
it would take more than a few days to override 30 or 40 or 50 years of indoctrination. some patience may be in order?
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ok,
it’s funny how much stress a simple gesture with a middle finger can cause,
as if it actually meant something horrid,
if it’s so abhorrent, why did god even bother to create a middle finger?
well god created slavery so I guess he can do whatever he likes.
but i’ll be nice and let you guys tackle the bigger issues. 🙂
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the middle finger is like karate, we have it so that we dont have to use it.
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Since my conversation started with Nathan, I can see we’re likely about done. We are already at an impasse because we can’t even agree as to the message and purpose of the O.T. It’s much more than obedience, it’s a judgment God seeks to save us from, and even more than that. We’re the ones messed up, not God. So we can’t even get past this one point. I gave you several things for you to explore if you really wanted to seek truth. Like you said, there was a lot there. And the soul is created eternal. It will not be terminated like we might terminate a dog. It will exist forever, somewhere.
But I promised to take one more question. How do I know the Bible is what it claims to be? Is that the question? Or is there another? Choose wisely. I’ll check back tomorrow. I’m off to work again.
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Yes, that’s the question.
Yes, yes, we’re in agreement here. The message of the Bible is God’s plan of salvation for mankind, since they “messed it up” in the Garden of Eden. I was simply trying to explain how I viewed the harsher aspects of the OT — and even then, my explanation was not meant to be exhaustive. Either way, I still think that takes us away from the first thing that has to be established, which is “how do you know the Bible is inspired?”
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I dont see the impasse.
we could go into all the different ways the bible can be and is interpreted, and that might be fruitful between believers of the bible, but when the discussion involves non-believers, it would be like a discussion between nerds on star wars (no offense).
so sure, I’m fine with the one question being “How do I know the Bible is what it claims to be? Is that the question?” although I find it odd when people in a discussion always want to limit questions to only one – even genies grant more wishes. it feels like a dodge, like you’re opening the door with one foot out. sit down, stay awhile. let’s discuss. this isnt a debate and we’re not playing for points.
we’re looking for a conversation and a discussion of facts, ideas, and reason. what is written vs what isnt vs what others make up to interpret what is written…
but that’s a good question as long as you understand all that it implies:
– it isnt simply a choice between atheism and the bible god, as there are countless more possibilities.
– it isnt between spontaneous existence and the bible god, as there are countless more
possibilities.
– how does existence point to a creator, then only one creator, then the bible god? saying “nothing created itself, therefore the bible god is true,” is skipping over several important steps.
things like that, you know.
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“how do you know the Bible is inspired?” – I’ll take that one Nate! Because it says so!
In all seriousness though I would like to see this question given a thoughtful response.
TNC, perhaps you blaspheme the Creator by making him and the tribal deity Yahweh one and the same. Does this concern you?
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and if you’ll entertain 2 questions, would you consider answering how you think people of other religions should and would recognize the errors of their religion to turn to Christianity?
and of course, there’ll likely be followup questions.
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Yes please hit on this question, I asked it a day or so ago and it was ignored:
thee-n-counter,
I understand that you use the Bible as your guide for life. Seeing it as inspired revelation from God. Would anything change for you if it was discovered that many of the Bible’s claims simply didn’t happen, or that books were not actually written by whom the Bible claims it was.
I ask because that is what did it for me as a christian. I starting doing heavy research thinking history and scholars would back up what I had been told my whole life was true. Turns out there are more problems with the bible than you can even imagine….What’s worse, to me anyway, is that the majority of christian scholars are aware of these problems and do not teach them, they simply skip over them and continue to lead the masses in error.
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whoever has 2 hours to kill,
the pbs nova documentary I shared earlier about buried secrets of the bible is fascinating.
it addresses a lot of the problems that the bible has from an archeological perspective.
https://findingtruth.wordpress.com/2012/09/13/how-it-happened-my-deconversion-part-1/#comment-24342
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I watched that program. Fascinating. I doubt many Christians watched it. Or if they did, they probably switched channels once they found out that many of the things they’ve been told about the bible is NOT based on FACT.
The thing I see happening with thee is what happens with most believers. “God” is the answer. Period. If you don’t have a genuine relationship with “him” and/or “his” son, then nothing you say holds water.
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Wow and the blog is alive again!
And seriously guys? Am I the only one sensing huge narcissism and ego dripping out from this guy?
“Choose wisely. I’ll check back tomorrow.”
Seriously? WTF?
I sincerely doubt we will have a good discussion. If you ask me I think he is even more hardcore than Mark/Tblacksman and he’s just gonna talk us down and say we’re stupid for not seeing things the way he does.
I think the conclusion for him has already been reached long ago. I’m totally sensing a shooting from the hip southern baptist preacher when I see his picture.
Have fun engaging him.
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