Lately I’ve been reading The Bittersweet End, and I’ve been quite engrossed in the way his story is unfolding. He began the blog as a place to gather his thoughts about a few doubts he was dealing with. Over the last year, he has moved further and further away from belief, until he now pretty much considers himself an atheist. He has just recently talked to his wife and his pastor about it (he’s still attending church), and it’s been very moving to hear about those experiences through his writing. It’s reminded me of my own de-conversion.
I started this blog almost 6 years ago. That’s a pretty good life for a blog — I don’t often run across any that are that old. In fact, it’s made it impractical for me to display my archives without a drop-down; it would just take up too much space. But it’s not like I’ve blogged constantly through all that time. In 2007, I went back to school and got a 2nd Bachelor’s degree. I didn’t complete it until December of 2008, so you’ll notice that I didn’t really blog anything that whole year. 2009 saw a little more activity, but barely. I only made 3 posts that year, and I posted nothing in 2010. So I essentially had a 3-year hiatus from this blog. What happened in the meantime to make my return in 2011 a complete reversal from my original approach?
Well, like I said, I was in school during 2008, plus I was still working full time and I had 2 young children. Blogging just had to take a back seat. But 2008 also saw Barack Obama’s historic election to President of the US. I’m a Democrat, and I have been for a long time. But living in the South and associating with conservative Christians, you tend to be inundated with Republican talking points. It’s not that I have anything against Republicans. I just sometimes have trouble understanding why conservative Christians identify with them so much right now. And during the 2008 election, that stood out to me more and more. I often heard my Christian friends (and I was a Christian too at this point) talk badly about efforts to provide universal health care, for instance. They were against abortion, yet they didn’t support welfare programs that would help take care of the mothers and babies once they’ve been born. I had trouble squaring that with what Jesus said here:
Then the righteous will answer him, saying, “Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?” And the King will answer them, “Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.”
– Matt 25:37-40
I felt that their position ran counter to Christian values. I was really bothered by that experience, but I wasn’t naive enough to blame Christianity itself when these were just faults in its adherents. However, I was part of a denomination known as the church of Christ. They believe they are the one true church that Christ established on the Day of Pentecost. Since the CoC thinks it’s the one true example of Christianity in the world, they believe that virtually everyone else is going to Hell. By the time 2008 rolled around, I no longer agreed with them on that. But I still thought God had a high standard set for salvation, and I still believed in a literal Hell. So when I saw how the group of Christians that claimed to follow Christ more closely than anyone seemed more concerned with keeping their taxes low than with helping those less fortunate, it became hard to rationalize how they could be on God’s good side. It was also hard to see how the “heretics and heathens” that did try to help the less fortunate could be going to Hell.
And it didn’t stop with social issues. Members of the CoC are often known for their extensive Bible knowledge. That’s admirable. But there were still many in the congregations who obviously didn’t think deeply about their beliefs or doctrines. Many of them had just been raised in the church and didn’t seem to know very much about why they believed what they believed. Of course, that’s a common problem in any denomination. But since the CoC takes the position that others will go to Hell for not understanding Christianity more perfectly, what would happen with those casual members in the CoC? Would they be found acceptable just because they were in the right version of Christianity? If so, isn’t that unfair to all the other casual members of any other denomination? And if the CoC is really the one right version of Christianity, but its casual members aren’t saved, then just imagine how small the number of saved will be.
In early May of 2008, the country of Myanmar (or Burma) was devastated by a tsunami. Over 138,000 people died. I was really bothered by that event. Myanmar is a very poor country, and almost 90% of the population is Buddhist. According to my Christian beliefs, almost every one of those 138,000 people went to Hell, after living in poverty and dying in a horrific manner. Why would God allow that?
My thought processes during this time showed me that according to my beliefs, the vast, vast majority of people who had ever lived were going to Hell. That’s a pretty bleak picture. Surely God wouldn’t be okay with that scenario. So I began studying about Hell to see if I had misunderstood what the Bible said about it.
I’ll talk more about that in the next post.
Finding Truth 
Okay, you say you want real conversation. Sounds good. But every time I answer a question, you can’t ignore it and change the subject to 20 other questions. You have not even studied out what I said. It at least deserves honest consideration. And twisting my words, like I think I’m Batman, when I plainly explained it is an analogy or metaphor. This conversation should not be pick and choose journalism, but should be in context.
Now it’s getting late and I’m sipping on a little wine and munching on Tostitos, and I decide to check out this 2 hour documentary my friend SBG recommends. Since it was supposed to be by experts and professionals, I thought it might at least present a challenge. I was disappointed, but not surprised.
Actually, I was really enjoying the first 13 minutes, and how the idea of monotheism was such a radical idea at that time. How did Abraham make this radical change? Something must have happened! (All pretty accurate so far.) Abrahams father believed in many gods and had the family idols just like everyone else of that time. But something happened with Abraham that changed everything. So far, so good. And the Egyptian Victory Stilla, (or however it was said), confirmed these Israel people in their land in 1208 B.C.. Yes indeed. But then…
They plainly stated they can find very little archeological evidence from before the flood. Agreed. The Bible says the fountains of the deep were breaking up. Water was coming up as well as down. The judgment of God on that society, in which fallen angels had actually mated with women, causing a breed of renown or giant men, became so evil and cursed that God destroyed it like Sodom and Gomorrah.
But since they had no evidence, rather than simply take the Bible at its own word, they began to speculate and act as if they know what really happened, and who really wrote the Bible, when all they actually have is “copies” by scribes. And the Jews were very exact in their treatment of sacred scripture. Not adding to or taking away, for fear of God! They believe in the judgment of God.
Now the speculation was bad enough, but I hung in there. However, when they did not even understand the story of Noah? They said that the Bible stating it rained 40 days and 40 nights, and then saying the waters “prevailed” upon the earth for 150 days was a contradiction? How stupid is that? Now Nate, I’m calling you out here. If you have true Bible knowledge, you will confirm there is no contradiction here. These experts are drunk on their own imagined I.Q.. But I tried to suffer through.
Then they did not even understand how the Bible will make a general statement at times, and then give greater detail later, but nothing that contradicts the general statement. In general, the animals were saved in “2’s”, and they came in by “pairs”, male and female. Then God specified that the clean animals would be saved by “7’s” and come in by pairs. They saw this as contradiction, not further explanation, but they still came in by pairs, and what about that 7th one? I can hear your brains shouting. The 7th one was for sacrifices for one thing. Not the only reason though. Now Nate, I ask you to listen to minutes 13 through 17 and tell me this is not an insult to Biblical intelligence. This is like shooting fish in a barrel.
Now my sleep is more important than a documentary that can’t even understand scripture on Noah. So yes, at this point I already knew this documentary was just another perversion, and not worth wasting time on. I was prepared to watch the whole thing. I have not even finished my wine yet. But I don’t want to go to bed sick of my stomach, which is what those lying experts would cause.
This is simple stuff. Like some people bring up the two conflicting stories of the messenger reporting to David about the death of King Saul. Any logical mind should understand, that since King Saul had been trying to murder David, this messenger thought he could gain favor with David by making it sound like he killed Saul. He was lying and it backfired on him. This is stuff any honest person should be able to figure out.
Tomorrow I’ll work on “the” question. And yes, if you want to have real conversation, and not just an attack, I’m good with that, but for now, I got some wine to finish.
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I haven’t watched the documentary yet, but plan to. But yes, if the way you’ve relayed it is correct, then I’d agree with you that none off those things are contradictions. I have other issues with the historicity of Abraham and Noah’s flood, but we can deal with those topics later, if they come up. Looking forward to your thoughts on why the Bible’s claims should be accepted.
Have a great night and enjoy your Tostitos. 🙂
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Thanks Nate. I’m gonna need my rest for that question.
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Nan
I was interested in your comment ‘I doubt many Christians watched it’. Most likely you are on the money. Until recently I would dismiss such documentaries as being biased and would turn them off in disgust, or more likely not even start watching them because I knew what to expect from secular presentations.
In my own case what has been the great revelation to me is how much our presuppositions impact on what we accept. How readily we can rationalise away arguments that conflict with our world view, I know all this because I had done it myself for a long time.
It was a great shock to find that the arguments I used to use to criticise those who challenged the reliability of the Bible and the existence of God aptly just as much, if not more so, to those who argue for the reliability of the Bible and the existence of God.
Peter Enns has recently posted on his blog two interesting posts drawing on the work of Stephen Young. The basic premise of Young’s position is that inerrant Biblical Scholars frame their consideration of the Bible such that the only conclusion they can reach is inerrancy. Terms such as the ‘Bible must be accepted on its own terms’ might sound objective but are they really?
Unless one is prepared to accept the theory that best explains the evidence, rather than seeking evidence to support pre-conceived views then one will never find the truth.
I used to think it was the atheists who were blind, who could not see the plain truth staring them in the face. What a shock to have changed my position to now think that about the people of faith.
‘When the Facts Change, I Change My Mind. What Do You Do, Sir?’ John Maynard Keynes.
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Peter,
Your 5th paragraph says it all.
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I couldn’t agree more.
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when i was a believer, i recall contemplating the OT and reconciling with the NT. In my mind, i created some pretty good explanations, which at the time made me feel like I was getting wiser.
Now I see that I was only creating patches for that exist in the bible.
I’ve actually heard some people say, “well, if you can just accept that there is a miracle working god and that he’d want to give us the bible, then it all makes perfect sense…”
and true, it makes a lot more sense if you can establish a perfect, all powerful god who actually delivered his word in the bible – but that’s starting off with huge assumptions.
it’s like saying, “if you accept that fairies and flying are real, then it begins to make sense that a man could fly if he sprinkled himself with sand and thought happy thoughts.”
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The Question: “Why do I believe the Bible is what it claims to be? The Word of God to man.”
First of all, I do not believe in “blind faith” as we are so often accused of. My belief is based on evidence. But what kind of evidence? The same kind that people are convicted or not convicted every day in court. We did not have film footage of O.J. Simpson murdering his wife, but most of us believe he did. Based on what? You tell me. Evidence? A gut feeling? I don’t have a video of God moving through special chosen people to write his message, but there is much circumstantial evidence. So much so that I don’t even know if I can fit it in one comment.
Science used to say the universe did not have a beginning, that it simply always was, then they discovered they were wrong, that it had a definite and sudden beginning that they began to call the “Big Bang”, and the universe is still expanding from that “bang”. So science was wrong. Not the first time and won’t be the last, but they still refuse to admit that a supernatural God speaking the words “Light be!” could be that force they see evidence of. (How convenient.)
Then there is all the evidence of a great upheaval on this earth, a great flood, and it is hard to find things existing before that flood. The Bible says there was a great flood, but adds a few details science just can’t believe.
Then SPG’s recommended documentary. I loved the first 13 minutes. Yes, “something” happened on this earth. And yes, “something” happened to a man named Abraham that him him to take a radically different direction to the knowledge of his time, AND AGAINST ALL ODDS, his belief survived! The Muslim faith also goes all the way back to Abraham, his son, Ishmael, and they also still believe in one God. Something about this man Abraham, surviving against all the odds, becomes a nation called Israel, who claim to be God’s chosen people.
Now there is “something” about this nation Israel. They had Prophets who spoke and wrote strange things, and yet so many of these things came true. Now do we really need to get into who wrote what? First of all, the evidence that the Bible was not written by any “single” person is overwhelming. There are many ways of discerning if something was written in a certain time period, or not. Also the way the person words things. It’s easy to tell a Stephen King Novel from a Mark Twain, without any signatures. So we at least know the Bible is a compilation of different writers who claim they were moved upon by God. Now these men wrote things they could not have known! The vision of Daniel, when he interprets the king’s dream of the great statue, and he predicts the coming of great nations, even Rome, and the split of Rome.
The coming of a Messiah and how he would be crucified! Crucifixion had not even been invented yet! The Romans perfected that great way to die. And how the nation of Israel would be scattered to the nations. No other nation has ever been scattered like that, lost their land, and yet come back to tell about it. We continue to watch Israel stay on a path of everything that has been prophesied by the Prophets.
Then Jesus comes along and there is “something” about him. How do I know this? Because he so changed the lives of 12 men (counting Apostle Paul), that they left their livelihoods and lived in poverty, being hunted for their faith, and eventually were murdered for their testimony as they refused to recant what they had seen with their eyes! This is not normal for people to do. “Something” happened to them. They had an encounter with “something”, and it wasn’t science! Paul was a wealthy and powerful man. He did a complete 180 and left it all, just so he could die poor, wifeless, and spend lots of time in jail. Peter was nailed upside down to a cross because he was not worthy to die in the same way as his Lord.
Then the Apostle John is condemned to an island where he has a great vision, and in a time when the fastest mode of transportation was still horseback, he prophesies f a coming Antichrist, who somehow the whole world will see, and there will be a Mark that all must take or die. He saw things very future, of which he had no way to know what they could be. “Something” happened to the Apostle John.
Then you have millions of changed lives, like me. They say porno is as hard a habit to break as cocain, and yet I am free of it. I have joy and peace that I cannot explain, no matter what is going on with me.
You can question the books of the O.T., but the Jews were meticulous record keepers and copiers. Of course, we have “translations” today, and the Bible does not say that the translators were controlled by God. Our translation is not perfect, but I have only seen a couple of unexplainable possible mistakes, neither of them affect doctrine in any way, and quite possibly are explainable, but we just have not seen it yet. This book that the Nazis tried to destroy, that most communistic countries hate, and even the Papal Church tried to keep out of the hands of the commoner, has not only survived, but thrived.
This is some evidence, but not nearly all. We are surrounded by evidence. There once was two neighbors and they both wanted a beautiful painting in their garage. So they both went about filling their garage with everything they would need to create a beautiful painting. They had the paint brushes, the paint knives, the easel, canvas, wood for framing, all the many colored tubes of paint, everything they could possibly think of to create that painting. Then the one neighbor tied some sticks od dynamite together, lit the fuse, threw it in his garage and caused a great big BANG! Needless to say, there was no beautiful painting standing in the smoke and debris, and O.J. probably murdered his wife. Now the second man decided that what his neighbor did would never work. He decided to hire an “Artist” to come into his garage and work with the materials he had provided. In a matter of days he had his beautiful painting.
“Something” has happened on this earth and is still happening. You want to believe it is alien involvement, be my guest, but I do not have a blind faith, and there is much evidence that fits the narrative of a certain book, written by many men, that the earth has tried to destroy while it survived. That book has led me to an excellent life of knowing how to have peace and joy, how to raise 5 children, and a blessed marriage of 38 years now. That book was written by men who mostly had to give up “everything” to fulfill their calling in God. And there is a nation Israel, still fulfilling that book to this day, because it was prophesied they would REJECT Christ, and so they are stuck in the O.T. and unable to even perform the duties they are supposed to be performing, but they still long to rebuild that temple, and they shall, just as prophesied. They will also come to Christ one day, just as prophesied.
I hope this gets to you. I am about to lose my at home Internet, as I have given notice of on my blogsite. I’ll be going to the downtown Library, but I will no longer have daily access. Thank you for reading such a long message. It could easily be much longer, because there is so much evidence.
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P.S. : If you want to point out some of the passages you believe to be contradictions, I’ll take a look at them. I can offer evidence to answers, but it still remains for each of to decide what we will do with our measure of faith. You’re believing in something too. God designed us that way. You can’t escape it. Choose wisely.
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Thanks for the thoughtful reply, thee.
I viewed the Bible almost exactly how you’ve described. What I didn’t realize is that most scholars (even many Christian ones) doubt that Abraham and Moses, etc were real people. They certainly do not believe that the Old Testament was written by the people most of us grew up thinking were the authors. Yes, the OT was written by several different people, but there are strong indications that it was not done in the process you’re thinking. It was edited, redacted, and fleshed out by different authors in different periods, depending on what they needed it to say. Or to give them more benefit of the doubt, depending on what they believed God wanted it to say. Abraham, Moses, and Noah were likely legendary figures, much like King Arthur. Even if there had been actual individuals with those names, the stories about them had been wildly exaggerated by the time they were written down. Archaeology does not support the stories of the Exodus, or even the conquest of Canaan. Archaeology also shows that the kingdoms of David and Solomon were not nearly as opulent as the Bible describes. The Bible’s accuracy doesn’t seem to be very solid until you get around the time period of kings like Ahab and Omri. Till that point, much of the Bible story appears to be legend.
There actually isn’t good evidence for a global flood. And I’m putting it mildly — the overwhelming consensus of geologists (based on many lines of evidence) is that there was never a global flood and such a thing would have been physically impossible. This page can give you more details (with references), if you like. Just a couple of highlights: if our geological record had been laid down quickly by a flood, then fossils would not be in any kind of order. Yet, we’ve never discovered a rabbit fossil below a dinosaur fossil, for instance. The record only runs one way, which is consistent with a very old earth. There are cave paintings that are much older than when the flood was supposed to take place, but those paintings would have washed away had they ever been submerged. This doesn’t even touch the difficulties that come with the ark: how to fit all those animals on board? What to do about food and excrement? How did kangaroos, penguins, sloths, and polar bears all make it to Palestine and back?
You mentioned that science changed its position on the universe being eternal and finally accepted the Big Bang. You referred to it as though their change in position was a flaw in science, but that’s actually how science is supposed to work. When people used to think the earth was flat or that the sun went around the earth, were they stupid? Or evil? No, they were making reasonable conclusions based on their observation. But eventually, new evidence showed that they had been mistaken, and the general public finally accepted that. The amount of evidence we have for the Big Bang is overwhelming, at this point. The level of background radiation in the universe supports the idea, so does the red-shift in the stars around us, and our telescopes have even been able to look “back” far enough to see the radiation from the Big Bang itself. Is there still more to discover? Absolutely. But that doesn’t invalidate the discoveries we’ve already made.
The Old Testament prophecies you mention aren’t even real prophecies in many places. For instance, the prophecy about Josiah that was always so impressive to me as a kid, was both written and “fulfilled” within the same book of the Bible, making it very suspect. Daniel’s prophecies actually don’t appear to reference Rome at all. Daniel’s last kingdom is Greece, and he even covers Greece’s split after Alexander’s death. The bulk of Daniel’s prophecies seem to focus on Antiochus Epiphanes, who occupied Jerusalem around 165 BCE and was a terrible ruler. He defiled the temple and inflicted all kinds of horrible things on the Jews. Those are the events that Daniel seems to be focused on. And that’s not surprising, because there’s an incredible amount of evidence pointing to “Daniel” never being a real person in Babylon. The book appears to have been written around 165 BCE, about 400 years after the time of Nebuchadnezzar.
Also, crucifixion was not invented by the Romans. Alexander the Great crucified a number of people after sacking Tyre, and that was around 332 BCE. But he didn’t invent the practice either. It’s had a very long history.
When it comes to how much Christianity has helped you, I think that’s great. I’m sincerely glad that it’s made you a better person. But that doesn’t really prove that it’s true. Some kids behave better when they believe in Santa Claus, but that doesn’t make Santa real. And I’m not trying to insult your beliefs by that comparison — it was just the best one I could think of.
Nor is the existence of Christianity and the Bible proof of its truthfulness. The existence and proliferation of the Bible has much more to do with the Dark Ages than almost anything else. Typically, the only educated people during that time were priests or monks. And they certainly weren’t going to spend their time copying secular or pagan texts. They copied the Bible over and over, and even worked to eradicate certain works that they believed were heretical. In more recent history, the printing press was the other piece of the puzzle to ensure the Bible made it to the masses. And since Christianity was the dominant religion in the Western world at the time, it’s no surprise that the Bible became prolific. Had the printing press been invented during the heyday of the Roman Empire, who knows how history might have gone?
This is a longer comment than I meant to make, and I probably didn’t cover all of your points. To sum up, I would suggest (if this is a topic that truly interests you) that you spend some time reading books from more moderate Christians like Peter Enns, or from people that may not be Christians at all. There are a number of great sources that cover all kinds of things: history, archaeology, textual criticism, science, etc. And I think you’d find that many of the things you view as evidence aren’t as solid as you’ve been led to believe. It can be a disturbing revelation — believe me, I know. But if you’re willing to take the chance on it, it can also be really rewarding.
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Instead of just listing one or two contradictory passages, I think it might be better for you to do some more in depth reading on the various issues. Otherwise, we’ll just keep going back and forth without really getting deep enough into the overall subject. I think it would help you to have a fuller understanding of where we nonbelievers are coming from.
So if you’re open to it, I can either direct you to some earlier posts on my blog with the understanding that you’ll read through entire series before we start discussing it again, or I can email you a paper I wrote for my close friends and family when I first realized I no longer could believe Christianity. It’s a pretty full treatment and covers many (though not all) of the issues that I find problematic. It’s 57 typed pages, so it takes some time to go through. But if you’re interested, I’d be happy to send it your way.
And if neither of those sound good, I can give you some book suggestions that might help illustrate the problems more fully.
Out of curiosity, do you think it’s possible that you’re wrong? That Christianity isn’t true at all?
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Paul, I’m watching the documentary right now, and I think it’s quite good (NOVA programs usually are). I’m halfway through.
thee, I agree with your criticism on what they said about the differences in the Noah story, but their overall point agrees with other research I’ve done on how they began to form the documentary hypothesis. And honestly, I’d need to go through those passages in Genesis again in more detail before I said they were completely wrong. Depends on what they’re trying to say. Either way, I think their overall point is something that should be considered.
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@powellpowers
Wow and the blog is alive again!
And seriously guys? Am I the only one sensing huge narcissism and ego dripping out from this guy?
“Choose wisely. I’ll check back tomorrow.”
Seriously? WTF?
no you’re not the only one, I concur with your assessment.
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and I love how conveniently the archeological evidence after the flood has been ignored.
i.e. no evidence for a mass exodus.
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Nate, I admire you a lot!
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Wow, thanks Paul!
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I agree, Paul – Nate, your diplomacy is outstanding. The first comment from ‘Thee’ screamed “FUNDAMENTALIST” at me — which is why I’ve held my ‘tongue’. Toxic christians have that effect on me.
. . .whoops. . .
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First, I want to say that I enjoyed reading Thee’s comment as well as Nate’s, both very well articulated. I’d also like to point out that any book, even if it contains 100% historical truth, is not automatically a divinely inspired book. Also, some theists argue that even if some things are legend it could still be divinely inspired so arguing over things like a flood and moses and abraham might be a moot point. I would encourage focusing on the things that prove divine revelation such as prophecy or anything that would have been impossible for a writer of that time period to know.
Thee mentioned how the big bang matches up with Elohim saying “Let there be light”, but I think this is reaching. If you read Genesis 1 it seems a lot more localized and primitive. I don’t see anything profound in this chapter. It is very simple observations: day & night, sun & moon, dry land & water, plants & animals and humans. Then it gets into some bizarre things like creating a person from a rib and talking snakes and magical fruit and flaming swords that make it seem a lot more like other creation myths from that time period. That does not mean it’s not inspired, I just don’t see any profound revelations yet.
Thee brought up the topic of monotheism. It is interesting to note that other ancient people also had monotheistic ideas such as Akhenaten in Egypt and Zoroaster in ancient Iran. Of course, the idea of monotheism would only be impressive if we actually knew whether it was true or not, which we don’t. There could be many gods or perhaps no gods.
Personally I would like to see more information concerning the men who “wrote things they could not have known!”. Please share more in this area. All of the prophecies I have looked at are either vague or written “in order to fulfill”.
Sorry to hear about your internet.
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Lots of good points here as usual, and we’ve all come to admire Nate for his diplomacy. It’s pretty amazing actually.
I wanted to offer a side note on the whole “there was a beginning” thing. There may very well have been, and you could find many cosmologists who agree, but it’s not near as large a percentage of them as people think. Sean Carroll made this clear in his recent debate with William Lane Craig. There is near complete consensus on the Big Bang itself and it would require huge amounts of counter-evidence to overturn. But the Big Bang is not at all the same as the proposition that there is a beginning of time.
If anyone really cares this is a highly recommended read:
http://www.preposterousuniverse.com/blog/2015/03/20/guest-post-don-page-on-god-and-cosmology/
Here’s a relevant quote from the person who wrote it:
The person who wrote it is Don Page and he is an evangelical Christian! I personally think his very first sentence above says it all.
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Thanks, Dave. Well said. I appreciate your help in trying to keep this conversation focused!
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Thanks for the comment, Howie!
And Carmen, thanks for your kind words as well.
thee, let me also thank you for taking the time to comment on an atheist blog. Plenty of people (including some of my close friends and family) don’t make the effort, despite believing we all need salvation. And I also want to thank you for your tone. Personally, I find it to be straight and to the point, not derisive.
And for any of you who would like to know how “fundamentalist Nate” sounded, here’s a good example. I think most of you guys would have looked at me pretty differently back then. 🙂
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Yeah Nate – you were a real jerk back then! 😉 (sorry I couldn’t resist – it is Friday you know).
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Now you’re gonna owe me an air hug too! If you shoot for 3pm central time, I’ll already be in receiving mode. 😉
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Ahhh, you’re right on the Greece and Rome thing. That’s what I get for writing too much off the top of my head, but it does seem we have looked at very different experts on archeology and evidence. Somehow the Israelites ended up in possession of that land, and there are very many unexplainable things that fit the Bible narrative. Including the direction everything is going. If that documentary of SPG is any example of your experts, then I’m not impressed. I should be losing this Internet service tomorrow, and I’m off to work now, but I’ve heard many experts before, and most of them are just like that documentary, in my opinion.
Well, we are having conversation, and I’ll try to get back, but it may be in a very irregular manner. What I see is we are all presented with a choice based on the evidence at hand. I have given you excellent logic. A big bang is not how we got here, and there are plenty of experts saying the opposite of yours. So here we are. It’s our choice. I guess that’s as far as we can go. It always seems to end at faith. The experts cancel each other out, and we end up back at faith. We each have our religion that we cannot prove.
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That could be really strange Nate, as if an air hug isn’t already weird enough. 😉
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