Lately I’ve been reading The Bittersweet End, and I’ve been quite engrossed in the way his story is unfolding. He began the blog as a place to gather his thoughts about a few doubts he was dealing with. Over the last year, he has moved further and further away from belief, until he now pretty much considers himself an atheist. He has just recently talked to his wife and his pastor about it (he’s still attending church), and it’s been very moving to hear about those experiences through his writing. It’s reminded me of my own de-conversion.
I started this blog almost 6 years ago. That’s a pretty good life for a blog — I don’t often run across any that are that old. In fact, it’s made it impractical for me to display my archives without a drop-down; it would just take up too much space. But it’s not like I’ve blogged constantly through all that time. In 2007, I went back to school and got a 2nd Bachelor’s degree. I didn’t complete it until December of 2008, so you’ll notice that I didn’t really blog anything that whole year. 2009 saw a little more activity, but barely. I only made 3 posts that year, and I posted nothing in 2010. So I essentially had a 3-year hiatus from this blog. What happened in the meantime to make my return in 2011 a complete reversal from my original approach?
Well, like I said, I was in school during 2008, plus I was still working full time and I had 2 young children. Blogging just had to take a back seat. But 2008 also saw Barack Obama’s historic election to President of the US. I’m a Democrat, and I have been for a long time. But living in the South and associating with conservative Christians, you tend to be inundated with Republican talking points. It’s not that I have anything against Republicans. I just sometimes have trouble understanding why conservative Christians identify with them so much right now. And during the 2008 election, that stood out to me more and more. I often heard my Christian friends (and I was a Christian too at this point) talk badly about efforts to provide universal health care, for instance. They were against abortion, yet they didn’t support welfare programs that would help take care of the mothers and babies once they’ve been born. I had trouble squaring that with what Jesus said here:
Then the righteous will answer him, saying, “Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?” And the King will answer them, “Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.”
– Matt 25:37-40
I felt that their position ran counter to Christian values. I was really bothered by that experience, but I wasn’t naive enough to blame Christianity itself when these were just faults in its adherents. However, I was part of a denomination known as the church of Christ. They believe they are the one true church that Christ established on the Day of Pentecost. Since the CoC thinks it’s the one true example of Christianity in the world, they believe that virtually everyone else is going to Hell. By the time 2008 rolled around, I no longer agreed with them on that. But I still thought God had a high standard set for salvation, and I still believed in a literal Hell. So when I saw how the group of Christians that claimed to follow Christ more closely than anyone seemed more concerned with keeping their taxes low than with helping those less fortunate, it became hard to rationalize how they could be on God’s good side. It was also hard to see how the “heretics and heathens” that did try to help the less fortunate could be going to Hell.
And it didn’t stop with social issues. Members of the CoC are often known for their extensive Bible knowledge. That’s admirable. But there were still many in the congregations who obviously didn’t think deeply about their beliefs or doctrines. Many of them had just been raised in the church and didn’t seem to know very much about why they believed what they believed. Of course, that’s a common problem in any denomination. But since the CoC takes the position that others will go to Hell for not understanding Christianity more perfectly, what would happen with those casual members in the CoC? Would they be found acceptable just because they were in the right version of Christianity? If so, isn’t that unfair to all the other casual members of any other denomination? And if the CoC is really the one right version of Christianity, but its casual members aren’t saved, then just imagine how small the number of saved will be.
In early May of 2008, the country of Myanmar (or Burma) was devastated by a tsunami. Over 138,000 people died. I was really bothered by that event. Myanmar is a very poor country, and almost 90% of the population is Buddhist. According to my Christian beliefs, almost every one of those 138,000 people went to Hell, after living in poverty and dying in a horrific manner. Why would God allow that?
My thought processes during this time showed me that according to my beliefs, the vast, vast majority of people who had ever lived were going to Hell. That’s a pretty bleak picture. Surely God wouldn’t be okay with that scenario. So I began studying about Hell to see if I had misunderstood what the Bible said about it.
I’ll talk more about that in the next post.
Finding Truth 
Ahh, Nate. . .I read through that thread. What a contrast! BUT I sense the same ‘essence of you’ – warm, intelligent, diplomatic, patient. . the same genuinely nice guy. Just on the flip side of the equation.
Also, it’s worth noting that the Andrew Green in the comments sounds like you do now. 🙂
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Touché, Howie… touché 🙂
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Yeah, I later sent Andrew an email. He and I are fb friends now too. He made a pretty big impact on me at a crucial time, which is why I didn’t actually reply to him in that thread. And if you notice, the last comment I made was 2/1/2010, right when I was beginning to find severe evidence against Christianity. That’s why that comment is so noncommittal. Interesting, eh?
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Hey Nate — glad you’re back to regular blogging. We’ve missed you!
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For anyone who’s interested, I did a little digging on the crucifixion prophecy topic. I’m pretty sure Thee was referring to Psalm 22 and although it does not mention the messiah and it looks like David is speaking about himself, it does mention “they pierced my hands and feet”. This is only in some translations, but there are a lot of Christian websites with articles backing up the reasoning for this translation.
I looked for an alternative viewpoint and found this article by Rabbi Tovia Singer: http://outreachjudaism.org/crucifixion-psalm/
It’s a very interesting read (feel free to skip the part about Martin Luther).
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thee, I respectfully disagree with you. You’re making it out like both sides have qualified experts, so people just have to choose. That’s definitely one of the narratives that’s common in Christian circles these days, but I’m telling you that if you break out of those bubbles, you’ll see it’s just not so. When people argue against the things we take for granted in Christianity, it’s not that they’re hiding evidence that runs in favor of Christianity. They tend to look at it all. Go check out the ongoing list of books I’ve read, if you want. One of the things I discovered was that many of the apologetic books would present some information. When I read about the same topic in other books (whether they were written from a moderate Christian perspective, a completely skeptical perspective, or simply by someone who didn’t care about religion and was just relaying information), I almost always found the same information that the Christian sources had presented in addition to other information that presented a fuller picture.
I’m saying that it doesn’t have to be so “us vs. them.” You can find sources that try to give a full picture, because their drive is not to push some ideology, but to simply get to the truth of a subject. And from that perspective, it’s very hard to stick to a literal, conservative view of scripture. Like I said, if you’re honestly interested in this, you’re going to need to do some more reading. Not trying to be condescending, because I’ve been where you are.
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Yes, Nate, interesting indeed. Interesting story, interesting fellow and interesting learning experience you are giving me about the power of diplomacy. . . I’ve been with Gr. 10’s and 11’s all day – that sounds like a rap! 🙂
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For me personally, I’ve decided not to put my “faith” in anything that cannot be reasonably verified. On the question of ultimate origins I feel it’s best to just be honest and say “I don’t know”. Anything else would just be guessing or pretending (for me anyway). If I tried to force myself into believing that a version of the Christian God or Muslim God actually existed it would just be dishonest.
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Thanks, Carmen. 🙂
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Paul, I finally finished the documentary, and I thought it was excellent. Thanks again for sharing! I hadn’t heard some of the recent evidence for Solomon’s reign, so that was especially fascinating.
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and thee-n-counter,
the big bang cant really be compared to a hand grenade. A hand grenade goes off, accelerates, expands, decelerates and spends all of its energy in seconds or less, in very small scale.
the big bang contained all energy, all matter and is still expanding. the same laws that affect hand grenades affect the big bang as well. The gravity and light and everything make matter collide in the expanse, birthing stars and creating planets are all cause by physical laws, explained by math, etc.
and with so much matter and so much expanse, only a few (one known of) led to life, with the vast majority having none.
while they’re both explosions, the amount of energy, matter and time are vastly different.
plus, as nate has pointed out, the radiation afterglow, the expanding of the universe and and the abundance of helium have all provided tangible evidence to support the big bang.
the bible on the other hand has old claims that god speaks to us through them… miracles once verified this, but we dont have them anymore.
and even if the big bang was rubbish, that still doesnt mean the bible is right.
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and then, there are the issues with the bible itself. and if the bible is wrong, that doesnt prove the big bang either. there arent only 2 options…
nate has written a good bit regarding the bible’s issues, from prophecies, to inconsistencies, to archaeology and science. look into those and comment on those threads if you like.
but consider the following as well:
in comic books or movies or real life, would a hero kill the child of an employee or servant to punish that employee or servant, or would that be the villain who does that? it’s what god did to David.
Do we sympathize with ISIS for killing men, women and children and then raping the women and girls in Iraq and Syria, or do we view those acts as evil and horrid? is that something a good and just leader would demand? it’s what god commanded the Israelites to do.
and as far as the NT, I know it criticizes those who ask for signs or miracles, saying that a non-believer wouldnt believe even then… but didnt John say that miracles were to convince people? werent Gideon, Moses, Paul and thomas all convinced by miracles according to the bible? does it really make more sense for a loving and all-powerful god to have the ability to let everyone know that he is the real god, without question, but instead have random guys write on behalf, in a way that is very suspect to many, while he stays in hiding?
I am reminded of Elijah’s test to the prophets of baal. would any god pass that test today – even the bible god?
i do not mean to mock god, but to question the claims of these superstitious people I’ve never met… claims that are unsubstantiated…
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Ahh fundamentalist Nate I remember that guy. Nathan and I have been on opposite sides of the issues a few different times actually, with many many emails, phone calls and conversations trying to work things out. No matter what side of an issue he was on, he’s always been the same genuinely kind guy. He may be a little more open to things now days, but that passion for finding the truth is still the force that drives him.
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Hi Nate
Just wanted to echo the thoughts of many others on this blog. The response you wrote to Thee at 9:29 am, was wonderful. It was well considered, thoughtful and compelling.
I have been working through Dr Steve DiMattei’s blog http://contradictionsinthebible.com/ he is up to contradiction number 296 and he is only part through the Book of Deuteronomy (having started at Genesis). I shudder to think what number he reach once he starts to address the Books of Samuel, Kings and Chronicles which are riddled with issues.
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Hi William
The following article on Benny Hinn is interesting for two reasons, firstly when This faith healer gets ill his family advised him to go to the Doctor, which he did, and secondly it notes that investigations into claims of healing produced no concrete evidence, if anything the people appeared worse off as a result of their ‘healing’!
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2015/3/24/faith-healer-benny-hinn-is-admitted-to-intensive-care-for-heart-problems/
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Hi Nate
In reference to your response of 1:45 pm, I was looking the the Christianity Today website and was struck by the pervasive tone. It is one where Christians feel under attack. They very much feel like the victims in the public debates.
This type of mindset is in the Christian DNA given it pervaded the Old Testament, and the New Testament Epistles. It does, however, affect the way one responds to contrary views, no matter how well intentioned.
I learnt in the field of customer relations, it is not reality which influences a customers response, rather it is what the customer thinks reality is that influences.
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Still here, and I don’t have a persecution complex, but I was right about Rome in my earlier statement. Daniel’s Prophecy does show Rome, the kingdom of iron. I’m not sure what you thought I said, and now I’m not sure what you meant either, because Rome is clearly shown. I assumed you probably knew what you were talking about, but now I guess I’m not sure what you meant, because everyone knows Rome is shown in that statue.
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Hi Thee
I am assuming that you are genuine in your comments here and not trying to bait Nate. If you are genuine then I suggest you look through Nate’s very detailed comments about the Book of Daniel on this website. If you are prepared to read them with an open mind then I hope that you would then realise how inappropriate your last post was.
The evidence from the text of the Book of Daniel clearly points to the fourth kingdom being Greece. Many Christian commentors argue it is Rome based on theological conviction it must be Rome because, not on an actual reading of the plain sense of the text.
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Hi thee,
Yes, Peter’s spot-on. I used to think the 4th kingdom was Rome, just like you. But like Peter said, Christians are forced to that conclusion, because they need the prophecy to reference Christ, and he wasn’t on the scene till the Roman Empire. The actual text of Daniel and what we know from history paint a different picture. You can get more info at this link, if you like. I am not the original author of this article, but he let me repost it here. It doesn’t provide sources, unfortunately, though I know he got most of his information from the Anchor Bible series of commentaries. I also spent a lot of time researching this (these articles were the first things that kick started my research into whether or not the Bible was true), and I was able to verify what he reports as well. Not that you should take my word for it.
In fact, a very helpful resource for me was Darius the Mede and the Four World Empires in the Book of Daniel, by H.H. Rowley. It’s an extremely detailed treatment of the issues in the Book of Daniel, and he provides a ton of sources.
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Rowley was a Christian, btw.
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benny hinn LOL
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The power of theatrics is hard to ignore and Benny-boy has mastered them to the nth degree.
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even prayer is interesting… for sick people.
I’d bet that statistically, prayer most often works for the sick who a) don’t have a life threatening disease, and 2) can afford medical care.
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mastercard and visa accepted.*
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I’m going through these questions right now regarding the religious- though I still call myself a “follower of Christ” as I still follow the teachings of Christ. I am not evangelical and I do not take a literal interpretation of the Bible. One of the churches that shunned my family and I was a CoC- the other was a Presbyterian church. I still consider myself a believer- but I am by all means anti-religious and I am not a member of any church and have not been for a very long time…I look forward to reading your posts given time- as I have two small children and I’m sure you know “free” time comes in chunks these days 😉
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