I value open-mindedness over most other things. When I was going through my deconversion and having frequent religious discussions with my family, I often felt that they weren’t being open-minded. I know that it’s hard (perhaps impossible) to judge how open-minded someone else is being, so I hesitate to even pass that kind of judgment. At the same time, it’s not like they were answering the problems I brought up with actual solutions — it mostly centered on how arrogant I was to question “God’s word.” On top of that, they never read any of the books or articles that I asked them to — I don’t think they even read all of the stuff I personally wrote to them.
It was the seeming lack of open-mindedness that shocked me most, in many ways. During my time as a Christian, I tried to be as open-minded as possible. I was part of a strict denomination that thought most other Christians were wrong, so I often had discussions with my Christian friends to try to help them see “the truth.” In those discussions, I often admitted that I could be wrong:
Either I’m wrong, or you’re wrong, or we’re both wrong. We can’t both be right…
I firmly believed (based on Matthew 7) that as long as I was searching for the truth, I would find it. Also, if what I believed about Christianity was true, then more study would only bear that out. In other words, I had nothing to fear by discussing and examining Christianity with those who disagreed with me. If they could show me where I was wrong, then that was good! It would mean that I had believed the wrong thing, but learning that would give me the opportunity to correct it and be more pleasing to God.
Now that I have come out of Christianity, I still feel just as strongly about the merits of open-mindedness. Recently, someone suggested that I read In His Image, by William Jennings Bryan (which I’m now doing), but when he gave me the suggestion, he then backpedaled and said I might not like the book because it supports Christianity. I was disappointed by that statement. I told him that I don’t read things based on whether or not I will agree with them — I take religion very seriously, because all religion is an effort to explain reality. If this book by WJB can provide some arguments I haven’t considered before, or answer some of my questions about Christianity, then I want to know that!
But now for the admission. Now for the part that I haven’t been able to say to my family yet: I don’t see any way that I’ll ever believe Christianity again. On the surface, that may seem like it runs counter toward my goal of being open-minded, but it really doesn’t. The fact is, I’ve just seen too much. “I once was blind, but now I see.” The fact is, the Bible can’t fix its problems because it’s a closed document. No more material is going in or out of it. Nor is God going to speak to me directly or perform some miracle to overcome my skepticism. We’re stuck with what we’ve got.
We’re left with a god that’s supposedly omnipotent, omniscient, and loves us all, yet we still have evil in the world. He remains hidden from us, but supposedly wants a relationship with us. He supposedly left us a message, but no one can agree on what it says, and its books look pretty much like all the other things that were being written at the time. As this post said:
Let’s face it – I may still be open to the idea of being convinced on the matter, but this is a genie that’s not going to go back into the bottle easily. I can’t unlearn what I’ve found; I can’t simply deny the truth that I’ve been able to discover without the fear of uprooting my faith. To ask me to believe again would be to take on the herculean task of not only providing sufficient evidence but also dealing with all of the logical and evidential problems or to ask me to knowingly deceive myself – and I’m not sure I’m willing to do that for anyone.
I am still an open-minded person. But I also know enough about Christianity now to know what it is and what it isn’t. I didn’t lose my faith by forgetting things, but by learning things. And if I had known years ago what I know now, I never would have been a Christian in the first place.
Finding Truth 
I had such surprising success at uploading that video, that I thought I might try it again.
I wear a very attractive gold ring on my right hand, my mother gave it to me, many years ago, for Christmas, but I value it for more reasons than merely sentimental – I value it because it’s a constant reminder that it takes three – count ’em – three Supernovae to create the heavy element we know as gold – one giant star exploded, throwing out dust and gas, which over millions of years coalesced into another giant star, which in turn exploded, casting off still more dust and gas, which again coalesced into yet a third giant star, which exploded, the remnants of which coalesced to form our own sun and planets, and ultimately, us. The atoms that make up ME (you too, even Si), have been through three Supernovae, and that’s what’s extra special about my gold ring.
This brief video, if in fact I’m able to upload it, may give all but Si a greater insight into the Bible”
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Ironically, if the prophecy to Abram had been kept, there wouldn’t even be standing room on the Earth, much less food to feed his descendants.
Equally ironically, for millennia, humans believed that the Earth and our solar system was all there was. With the galaxies moving apart at nearly the speed of light, the time will come, though quite likely there will be no Humans around to see it, when everything will have moved so far away from our galaxy, that it will truly appear, to any beings that may be here then, as though this is all there is, and all that there has ever been.
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Something worthy of consideration (for everyone but Si):
GENESIS . . . last chapter
In the end,
There was Earth, and it was with form and beauty.
And Man dwelt upon the lands of the Earth, among the meadows and the trees, and he said,
“Let us build our dwellings in this place of beauty.”
And he built cities and covered the Earth with concrete and steel.
And the meadows were gone.
And Man said, “It is good.”
On the second day, Man looked upon the waters of the Earth.
And Man said, “Let us put our wastes into the waters,
That the dirt will be washed away.”
And Man did.
And the waters became polluted and foul in their smell.
And Man said, “It is good.”
On the third day, Man looked upon the forests of the Earth
And saw that they were beautiful.
And Man said, “Let us cut the timber for our homes and grind the wood for our use.”
And Man did.
And the lands became barren and the trees were gone.
And Man said, “It is good.”
On the fourth day, Man saw that animals were in abundance
And ran in the fields and played in the sun.
And Man said, “Let us cage these animals for our amusement and kill them for our sport.”
And Man did.
And there were no more animals on the face of the Earth.
And Man said, “It is good.”
On the fifth day, Man breathed the sweet air of the Earth.
And Man said, “Let us dispose of our wastes into the air
So the winds might blow them away.”
And Man did.
And the air became filled with the smoke and the fumes could not be blown away.
And the air became heavy with dust, and choked and burned.
And Man said, “It is good.”
On the sixth day, Man saw himself, in skins of many colors;
And speaking many tongues and languages, and Man feared.
And that which he feared, he hated.
And Man said, “Let us build great machines of war and destroy these, lest they destroy us.”
And Man built great machines, and the Earth was fired with the rage of great wars.
And Man said, “It is good.”
On the seventh day, Man rested from his labors
And the Earth was still,
For Man no longer dwelt upon the Earth.
And it was good.
Kenneth Ross
Reprinted from The Idaho Wildlife Review
May/June 1967
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Awesome video — thanks for posting it. And yeah, it’s very sobering to think about a time when everything has moved so far apart we wouldn’t be able to see it.
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silenceofmind,
On the first question…
I grant that you accept the succession of authority from Jesus onward, but the question remains:
If you yourself wouldn’t dream of making a determination as to what literature was divinely inspired or not, then what makes you think that you can establish the legitimacy of the apostolic succession? In other words, how can you be certain that this succession wasn’t usurped by dishonorable men somewhere along the way prior to your birth?
On the second question…
I agree that the Gospels make it very clear that the Jewish establishment wanted Jesus dead, and that the Jews asked Pilot to do their dirty work for them. However, the fact remains that Pilate had full legal authority to refuse such a request, just as a modern-day judge has full legal authority to refuse such a request now. Ultimately, the denarius stopped with Pilate, who had final say in the matter — not those who brought Jesus up on false charges. And according to the ancient historians, Pilate wasn’t exactly known for his acquiescence; they report that he was a ruthless dictator who routinely killed anyone with whom he disagreed with.
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Further, Ron, Paul, who never met Yeshua (if he ever existed) hijacked the Christian religion from those who (if he ever existed) might have actually known Yeshua, and it is these, the offspring of Paul’s converts, who made the decisions at Nicea.
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It is also the offspring of Paul’s converts that are the Christians of today.
Arch, I copied the very moving excerpt that you shared above (genesis ending) to my blog.
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Nan – i’ve held onto that (obviously) for quite some time, wanting to use it, but feeling I should get Mr. Ross’ permission first. Finally, a couple of years ago, I broke down, and using Skype, called every Kenneth Ross in the state of Idaho. Having been unable to locate him, and realizing that after 25 years, it is well into Public Domain, I have since reprinted it, even to the point of having created a poster of it, overprinted on a seascape, but I always make it a point to credit Mr. Ross, wherever he may be – all that I ask, is that you continue to give him the respect, and the credit, that he so richly deserves. And I have no doubt that you will.
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You and I, my friend, are privileged to live in a very special time in the history of an enormously vast and ancient universe, when things are exactly the way they are.
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Si, this may give you something to watch, while the grown-ups talk —
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My favorite line from the Krauss presentation:
“So forget Jesus. The stars died so that you could be here today.” (15:34)
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Someone once said, you can tell a lot about a man, if you know who his heroes are, after Albert Einstein and Walt Disney, I would have to name the late physicist, Richard Feynman.
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“God is an ever-receding pocket of scientific ignorance, that gets smaller and smaller as time goes on.”
— Neil Degrasse Tyson —
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I don’t mean to hijack your thread, Nate, I just have some things to say, and I’m saying them – if that’s a problem, just kick me off, it’s OK. I was going to go steal some hubcaps anyway —
(Oh, yeah, they don’t have hubcaps anymore, do they? Never mind –)
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To the one who maintains there’s no global problem:
It is 2013 – in 1950, there would be two-thirds fewer humans on the planet than there are now. Over a million different species of plants and animals would exist that have since gone extinct. There would be 90 percent more fish, a billion fewer tons of plastic, and 40 percent more phytoplankton (producers of half the planet’s oxygen) in the oceans. There would be twice as many trees covering the land and about three times more drinking water available from ancient aquifers. There would be about 80 percent more ice covering the northern pole during the summer season and 30 percent less carbon dioxide and methane in the atmosphere. The list goes on…
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@som, “That means the essential meaning of Jesus’ Gospel is not in scripture, it is in Tradition. In fact, scripture is a written form of tradition.”
There are 2 traditions that tell the location of Christ’s Tomb. Which one is right if Tradition is so accurate ?
When going to the Holy Land, guides will use the term ,”Tradition tells us” not because it is more accurate than the bible, it’s because they don’t have archaeological evidence for the stories they are telling you.
By the way, I am a Deist not an Atheist so don’t spew your vitriol at me !
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What problem? I don’t see a problem. Do you see a problem?
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I’ve explained how the first five books of the Bible (the Torah/Pentateuch) came to be, and you, Ron, have aptly illustrated the role of the Redactor (editor), let me present an example of how that worked out in Genesis 25:
25:21 “And Isaac intreated the Lord for his wife, because she was barren: and the Lord was intreated of him, and Rebekah his wife conceived.
25:22 “And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to enquire of the Lord.
25:23 “And the Lord said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels (he still hasn’t figured out how that works, has he?); and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.
25:24 “And when her days to be delivered were fulfilled, behold, there were twins in her womb.
25:25 “And the first came out all red, all over like a hairy garment (A hairy baby? Really?!); and they called his name Essau.
25:26 “And after that came his brother out, and his hand took hold of Esau’s heel; and his name was called Jacob: and Isaac was threescore years (60) when she bare them.
25:27 “And the boys grew: and Essau was a cunning hunter, a man of the field; and Jacob was a plain man, dwelling in tents.
25:28 “And Issac loved Esau, because he (Ike) did eat of his (Esau’s) venison: but Rebekah loved Jacob.
25:29 “And Jacob sod pottage (a thick soup or stew of boiled vegetables and grains): and Esau came from the field, and he was faint:
25:30 “And Esau said to Jacob, Feed me, I pray thee, with that same red pottage, for I am faint: therefore was his name called Edom.”(Yahwist Source)
Just an example, albeit a bit lengthy, of how it worked, and an explanation as to why Moses did not write Genesis.
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Sorry, screwed up – 21-30 should have been in quotations as well – disculpame!
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kcchief1,
I think you’ve hit the nail on the head with your question about Christ’s tomb.
Tradition, capital “T” is the mind of God. The mind of God in Tradition is His Revelation about Himself to mankind.
It isn’t archeology.
Atheists, by nature of not believing in God, cannot possibly detect the mind of God in anything.
So the attempt you folks are making to discredit Jesus and Moses is pure silliness.
The Western Civilization rose up around the teachings of Jesus and Moses which are the teachings of God, Himself.
So to say that Jesus and Moses didn’t exist means that Western Civilization never existed either.
And of course, that claim is false.
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Nate,
I’ve answered enough of your questions. It’s useless because you aren’t really after answers.
You just move the goal post and blithely go on as if the answer to your previous question didn’t even happen.
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Ron,
I don’t establish the legitimacy of Apostolic succession. The institutional Church does that.
Only the institutional Church does that because as I stated earlier, Christianity defines itself.
You atheists are attempting to redefine what already exists, in order to fit it inside the minuscule, hallucinated alternate reality of atheism.
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Nan,
Christians today are not the spiritual descendants of Paul in the manner in which you describe.
It says in the Bible that Peter was the leader of the Church. He was the first pope. Not because I say so or you say, but because Jesus said so.
The Church traces itself through the popes all the way back to Peter.
Paul was one of the Apostles and Jesus said that the Apostles were the foundation of His Church.
And Paul was very clear that he preached Jesus’ Gospel, not his own.
The New Testament is composed of literature written by various authors of which Paul is only one.
So to say that Paul hijacked Christianity is pure nonsense since he was teaching the same thing as all the other Apostles.
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Archaeo,
BS. All the people in the world could fit in the state of Texas. Do the math.
All the over population crap is just that: crap.
Each human being is a precious resource.
The systematic mass murder of the unborn through abortion has probably wiped out more genius and intellectual talent than any holocaust in human history.
When I was a kid we were landing on the moon.
Now half a century later, because atheism has caught hold, all we are doing is driving toys round on Mars and sending civilization back to pre-modern times.
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SOM,
The “pope” is the leader of the Roman Catholic Church. There was no Roman Catholic Church when Peter was alive. Jesus did not say Peter was a “pope.”
Jesus came with a message for the Jews — since he himself was a Jew. He was not a “Christian” because there was no such animal when he was alive.
Paul was not an apostle (one of the original 12 disciples chosen by Christ to preach his gospel). In fact, he was an enemy of those who followed “The Way.” It was not until he had a “vision” that he changed his ways.
Paul did NOT preach the message that Jesus brought to the Jews. He preached a message that would appeal to the Gentiles, which he believed he had been called to do. He was the one who developed the belief that Jesus (who Paul renamed Christ to appeal to his Gentile audience) had died to bring salvation.
Paul also did not preach the same message as the original followers of Jesus. These people saw Jesus as the Messiah that God had promised them. They did not see him as a “savior.”
There is a tremendous amount of information available in books and on the web about how Christianity was actually developed. I suggest you look beyond your Catholic catechism and read some of it. You might be surprised at what you will learn.
I do not claim to be an atheist so do not attack me with the same rhetoric that you have done to others on this blog.
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