I value open-mindedness over most other things. When I was going through my deconversion and having frequent religious discussions with my family, I often felt that they weren’t being open-minded. I know that it’s hard (perhaps impossible) to judge how open-minded someone else is being, so I hesitate to even pass that kind of judgment. At the same time, it’s not like they were answering the problems I brought up with actual solutions — it mostly centered on how arrogant I was to question “God’s word.” On top of that, they never read any of the books or articles that I asked them to — I don’t think they even read all of the stuff I personally wrote to them.
It was the seeming lack of open-mindedness that shocked me most, in many ways. During my time as a Christian, I tried to be as open-minded as possible. I was part of a strict denomination that thought most other Christians were wrong, so I often had discussions with my Christian friends to try to help them see “the truth.” In those discussions, I often admitted that I could be wrong:
Either I’m wrong, or you’re wrong, or we’re both wrong. We can’t both be right…
I firmly believed (based on Matthew 7) that as long as I was searching for the truth, I would find it. Also, if what I believed about Christianity was true, then more study would only bear that out. In other words, I had nothing to fear by discussing and examining Christianity with those who disagreed with me. If they could show me where I was wrong, then that was good! It would mean that I had believed the wrong thing, but learning that would give me the opportunity to correct it and be more pleasing to God.
Now that I have come out of Christianity, I still feel just as strongly about the merits of open-mindedness. Recently, someone suggested that I read In His Image, by William Jennings Bryan (which I’m now doing), but when he gave me the suggestion, he then backpedaled and said I might not like the book because it supports Christianity. I was disappointed by that statement. I told him that I don’t read things based on whether or not I will agree with them — I take religion very seriously, because all religion is an effort to explain reality. If this book by WJB can provide some arguments I haven’t considered before, or answer some of my questions about Christianity, then I want to know that!
But now for the admission. Now for the part that I haven’t been able to say to my family yet: I don’t see any way that I’ll ever believe Christianity again. On the surface, that may seem like it runs counter toward my goal of being open-minded, but it really doesn’t. The fact is, I’ve just seen too much. “I once was blind, but now I see.” The fact is, the Bible can’t fix its problems because it’s a closed document. No more material is going in or out of it. Nor is God going to speak to me directly or perform some miracle to overcome my skepticism. We’re stuck with what we’ve got.
We’re left with a god that’s supposedly omnipotent, omniscient, and loves us all, yet we still have evil in the world. He remains hidden from us, but supposedly wants a relationship with us. He supposedly left us a message, but no one can agree on what it says, and its books look pretty much like all the other things that were being written at the time. As this post said:
Let’s face it – I may still be open to the idea of being convinced on the matter, but this is a genie that’s not going to go back into the bottle easily. I can’t unlearn what I’ve found; I can’t simply deny the truth that I’ve been able to discover without the fear of uprooting my faith. To ask me to believe again would be to take on the herculean task of not only providing sufficient evidence but also dealing with all of the logical and evidential problems or to ask me to knowingly deceive myself – and I’m not sure I’m willing to do that for anyone.
I am still an open-minded person. But I also know enough about Christianity now to know what it is and what it isn’t. I didn’t lose my faith by forgetting things, but by learning things. And if I had known years ago what I know now, I never would have been a Christian in the first place.
Finding Truth 
silenceofmind,
I understand that the institutional Church establishes the legitimacy of succession, but that is not what I asked. My question was: How can you be certain that this succession wasn’t usurped by dishonorable men somewhere along the way prior to your birth?
And your opinion of non-believers seems rather harsh in light of recent statements made by Pope Francis. To wit:
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Nan,
Sorry, but you don’t get to define the Catholic Church.
The Catholic Church defines itself and traces itself back to Peter, the other 11 Apostles and Saint Peter.
And that it did so is a matter of continuous 2000 year old record.
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I don’t know why any of you continues to bother with him. He’s never going to give anyone a straight answer to anything. Most of you have approached him as politely and respectfully as he could ever have hoped for, but he’s never going to listen to, or consider anything anyone says. He’s going to continue to spout nonsense. He’s really not worth anyone’s time.
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Ron,
The idea that dishonorable men usurped the Church is not only irrational on its face but was proven irrational by Church history.
First, the basic doctrines of Jesus have never changed with the Church, not for over 2000 years.
Since Jesus taught what was good, and since the Church has always taught what Jesus taught, the idea that evil men usurped the Church is irrational. Because evil transmit evil, not good.
If evil men usurped the Church then the Church would have changed its teachings from good to evil. That is not the case since the Church teaches what is good, namely the Gospel of Jesus.
Second, during the Church’s history and especially the Renaissance, evil men did take over the Church. That is one of the factors that led to the Reformation.
But even though evil men had taken over the Church and committed evil, the Church’s religious doctrines remained the same as always.
The Council of Trent 1545-1563, which was the Church’s rather anemic response to the Reformation, reaffirmed all Church doctrine that had been established since the year 0.
Jesus words were true. From Matthew 16:18:
“And I tell thee this in my turn, that thou art Peter, and it is upon this rock that I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it;”
The Church will always teach the Gospel of Jesus no matter the evil that men do.
So your claim that evil men usurped the Church is proven false by both reason and actual events.
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@ Nate.
Just to let you know that this fool is carrying on all over the place.
This chap, Neil, -also a deconvertee- has been plagued by SOM and he has been banned, (or moderated I think) largely because like here, he will not answer a question that is directed at him.
http://godlessindixie.com/2013/08/22/do-atheists-have-faith/#comments
Just thought I’d give a heads up, my friend.
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What’ll you bet, that he can’t see that he’s contradicted himself?
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Arkenaten,
Godlessindixie is one of your fellow sophists who would rather play word games than actually pursue the truth.
No one is obligated to waste their time submitting to such abuse.
That you are so full of hate that you would wander around the Net trying to assassinate someone’s reputation speaks to deep seated psychosis.
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AND, that he’ll have an excuse for it?
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Lol…hate is the stock-in-trade of the religious, hadn’t you noticed? It is a useless emotion.
I would recommend you enjoy your game while you can.
And for the record, you are STILL a dickhead.
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http://goo.gl/mzY5D4
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Sorry, guys, gals, and even Si – experimenting with WordPress formatting (and failing miserably( – please excuse —
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Wow, that sounds SO much like someone we know, whose name begins with silenceofmind! As for reputation assassination, I do think though, that some reputations are better off dead.
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Ark – I think you may have just insulted dickheads everywhere —
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Maybe he is the gangleader?
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Archaeo,
Don’t blame your inability to understand reality on me.
I stated actual history and I recited simple reasoning.
If you see a contradiction it’s but one of many going on within your own mind. Nobody can deal with that except you.
And you won’t be able to deal with it until you quit blaming others and take responsibility for it.
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arch, fixed the picture you were trying to insert. It just needed to be wrapped in an img tag, like this:
<img src=”url” />
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Arkenaten,
If I said, “Hate is the stalk and trade of gays,” or “Hate is the stalk and trade of blacks,” you’d call me a bigot.
But you said, “Hate is the stalk and trade of the religious,” so what does that make you?
WAIT! Don’t guess. I’ll tell you because you’ll guess wrong for sure.
It makes you a bigot, you flaming hypocrite fool.
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The term is Stock- in-trade…Dickhead.
Lol…you are hilarious!
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Naaahhhhh, you gotta have at least SOME degree of intelligence to lead ANYthing – more like a dickhead reject or a dickhead wannabe, but definitely not a leader —
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I’ll bet he’s an excellent driver.
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I reckon Nate is hoping for 500 comments on this thread!
Why else keep it going?
I would hate to imagine Silenceofnomind as a parent.
Gives me the creeps just thinking about it. There should be law against him being allowed into the gene pool…even in the shallow end.
Come ON Nate!!
Close this thread and chuck this twit SOM in the pigswill. 🙂
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Ah, it’s the PeeWee Herman, “I know you are, but what am I?” defense maneuver again! Have you noticed how often you use that?
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Yeah, this is getting a bit tiresome. I had hoped we were actually about to have a real conversation, but that fizzled out.
SOM, you apparently run into this kind of thing a lot. What do you get out of it? I can assure you that this thread didn’t devolve because of us — I have Christians that comment on here all the time, and I’ve never had to close a thread before. Friendly suggestion: try to stay on topic more. When people ask you questions, try to answer them. Or at least explain why you can’t or won’t answer them without trying to blame it on the person who asked. It’s really disingenuous. You’ve given me the very clear impression that you’re not all that interested in what’s true… honestly, I can’t figure out your motivations at all.
Last round if anyone has anything worthwhile they’d like to say. Comments will close soon…
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Nay, nay, Ark – first of all, it helps Nate’s stats, and who wouldn’t want to help someone who is kind enough to host a playground for us? Secondly, I’m having too much fun spanking Si, and thirdly, with him go, what would we do for humor? I have this image of PeeWee Herman, in boxer shorts and boxing gloves, trying to do Ali’s “Rope-A-Dope,” with all of PeeWee’s grace and style, and it’s cracking me up every time the insult to humanity comments. I have SO few pleasures in life, don’t take away my court jester!
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