I value open-mindedness over most other things. When I was going through my deconversion and having frequent religious discussions with my family, I often felt that they weren’t being open-minded. I know that it’s hard (perhaps impossible) to judge how open-minded someone else is being, so I hesitate to even pass that kind of judgment. At the same time, it’s not like they were answering the problems I brought up with actual solutions — it mostly centered on how arrogant I was to question “God’s word.” On top of that, they never read any of the books or articles that I asked them to — I don’t think they even read all of the stuff I personally wrote to them.
It was the seeming lack of open-mindedness that shocked me most, in many ways. During my time as a Christian, I tried to be as open-minded as possible. I was part of a strict denomination that thought most other Christians were wrong, so I often had discussions with my Christian friends to try to help them see “the truth.” In those discussions, I often admitted that I could be wrong:
Either I’m wrong, or you’re wrong, or we’re both wrong. We can’t both be right…
I firmly believed (based on Matthew 7) that as long as I was searching for the truth, I would find it. Also, if what I believed about Christianity was true, then more study would only bear that out. In other words, I had nothing to fear by discussing and examining Christianity with those who disagreed with me. If they could show me where I was wrong, then that was good! It would mean that I had believed the wrong thing, but learning that would give me the opportunity to correct it and be more pleasing to God.
Now that I have come out of Christianity, I still feel just as strongly about the merits of open-mindedness. Recently, someone suggested that I read In His Image, by William Jennings Bryan (which I’m now doing), but when he gave me the suggestion, he then backpedaled and said I might not like the book because it supports Christianity. I was disappointed by that statement. I told him that I don’t read things based on whether or not I will agree with them — I take religion very seriously, because all religion is an effort to explain reality. If this book by WJB can provide some arguments I haven’t considered before, or answer some of my questions about Christianity, then I want to know that!
But now for the admission. Now for the part that I haven’t been able to say to my family yet: I don’t see any way that I’ll ever believe Christianity again. On the surface, that may seem like it runs counter toward my goal of being open-minded, but it really doesn’t. The fact is, I’ve just seen too much. “I once was blind, but now I see.” The fact is, the Bible can’t fix its problems because it’s a closed document. No more material is going in or out of it. Nor is God going to speak to me directly or perform some miracle to overcome my skepticism. We’re stuck with what we’ve got.
We’re left with a god that’s supposedly omnipotent, omniscient, and loves us all, yet we still have evil in the world. He remains hidden from us, but supposedly wants a relationship with us. He supposedly left us a message, but no one can agree on what it says, and its books look pretty much like all the other things that were being written at the time. As this post said:
Let’s face it – I may still be open to the idea of being convinced on the matter, but this is a genie that’s not going to go back into the bottle easily. I can’t unlearn what I’ve found; I can’t simply deny the truth that I’ve been able to discover without the fear of uprooting my faith. To ask me to believe again would be to take on the herculean task of not only providing sufficient evidence but also dealing with all of the logical and evidential problems or to ask me to knowingly deceive myself – and I’m not sure I’m willing to do that for anyone.
I am still an open-minded person. But I also know enough about Christianity now to know what it is and what it isn’t. I didn’t lose my faith by forgetting things, but by learning things. And if I had known years ago what I know now, I never would have been a Christian in the first place.
Finding Truth 
10-4 Arch. I just enjoyed writing Ark for reasons I do not know. 🙂
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William, thanks for the suggestion. I do have those posts listed in my About section, but it probably wouldn’t hurt to repost the links too.
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Your comment is an example of an atheist hallucinating an opposing argument and then arguing with it.
We humans call that mental masturbation.
The point has always been yours:
Moses and Jesus didn’t exist because there is no archeological evidence to prove their existence.
My counter point is that physical evidence is only one kind of information and to limit one’s self to that is to condemn oneself to deeply ingrained ignorance.
The teachings of both Moses and Jesus shaped the entire planet over millennia. We count time since the birth of Jesus. We view justice in the light of Moses’ and Jesus’ teachings.
The very existence of Israel is senseless without Moses. Likewise Western Civilization without Jesus.
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You’re putting a bit too much on the shoulders of Moses and Jesus.
But even if you weren’t, so what? The past 1400 years of Middle Eastern history and law have been based on Muhammad’s teachings. Does that mean he was really divinely inspired?
The impact the teachings of Judaism and Christianity have had does not mean they are true teachings. And while you’re right that archaeological evidence is not the only sort that matters, it does still matter. It should at least be a consideration. Otherwise, why don’t we accept the Mormons’ claims about Jews discovering America?
Listen, we’re not getting anywhere with the discussion of Moses and archaeology. Why don’t you tell us your other reasons for believing in Christianity? Maybe we can find something to discuss that will actually make some progress…
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Silence, what evidence do you provide other than old jewish tradition?
you remind me of someone who still thinks that Aristotle was right about falling objects – that a whole brick would fall twice as fast as a half brick. This was believed a taught for more than 1600 years until Galileo showed it to be wrong.
Galileo wasnt as concerned with tradition. he tested them, weighed and measured them, and formed his knowledge and opinions around actual facts.
And just as an aside, isn’t scientific consensus also called a fact or a scientific law?
And you should probably refrain from speaking for the whole human kind. And really, you should a take a moment for personal reflection because you’re a moron and clearly don’t recognize that observable and demonstrably repeatable fact.
and against better judgement, what do you think of the bible and god? what’s your religion or theology? care to share your good news and enlighten us all? or will you merely continue to to dodge questions and a declare us all insane (as if saying it more than once makes it true)?
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Hmmmm, so way back when, didn’t SOM say he was leaving? Guess he couldn’t stay away.
BTW, SOM, you wrote: “I said that Jewish tradition provides evidence that he existed and that Jewish tradition is actually much more informative than archeology in this particular case.”
Have you even looked up the meaning of the words evidence and tradition? If you did, you would note that tradition does not equal evidence.
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Si – RE: “My counter point is that physical evidence is only one kind of information and to limit one’s self to that is to condemn oneself to deeply ingrained ignorance.” – your comments always seem to require translation. I take this one as meaning, “Why limit yourself to scientific evidence when you can also consider 3000-year old hearsay evidence?”
The ridiculous nature of your question precludes a need for an answer.
“We count time since the birth of Jesus.” – not true, if Yeshua ever existed, he would have been born in the neighborhood of 4 BCE, not zero BCE, so if we are measuring time from the alleged date of his alleged birth, then our calenders are off by four years. BTW, Demember 25th was the birthdate of “Sol Invictus,” the “Invincible Sun,” patron god of soldiers, made the official god of the Roman army in 274 CE by Emperor Aurelian, and later also plagiarized by you Christians.
RE: “We view justice in the light of Moses’ and Jesus’ teachings.” – if I had the time to waste on your nonsense, I would comb through and show you some of the brilliant examples of the teachings of Moses and Yeshua that would demonstrate just how foolish your statement is.
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Sorry, but there you go again hallucinating strange meaning from your own private Idaho and then assigning it to me.
If you think my use of simple English needs translation, than your understanding of simple English needs remediation.
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@Silenceof no mind..
Lol..you are funny….
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silenceofmind is funny. refusing to answer questions. making outrageously unsupported remarks and then casting insults when people dont understand or agree with his gibberish.
Just answer a question, dude. or dont… it’s more entertaining this way although the joke is becoming stale. you need new material.
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Oh my gawd. I go away for a day, and I’m totally lost. I can’t even find my last comment.
Good luck, Nate, et al.
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So if you didn’t mean, “Why limit yourself to scientific evidence when you can also consider 3000-year old hearsay?” what exactly did you mean? No obfuscation this time, be specific.
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silenceofmind-
You should be ashamed to call yourself a Christian.
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Under the circumstances, all christians should at least show a bit of contrition if not be ashamed to call themselves christians
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You’ve passed judgment upon me and used the guilt trip to shame me and hurt my feelings.
Does that mean you are a shameful Christian just like me?
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Silenceofmind,
let’s focus to one thing, if we can. otherwise, we’re turning into schoolyard elementary kids. What is your theology?
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If indeed Pharaoh wiped out any mention of Moses, than any record of all the disasters wrought by Moses would be most especially be wiped from the record too.
Such disasters would glorify Moses and make him into a god who overpowered Pharaoh, also a god. Or it would indicate the actions of the one true God.
In any case, those disasters, if they were allowed to become part of history, would totally destroy the institution of Pharaoh as an authoritative divine being.
Looked at in that light, it would have been absolutely essential for Pharaoh to wipe any mention of Moses from the historical record.
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What is your theology?
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The topic of this post is not theology. Are you proposing a change of subject?
Since atheists deny theology, I always try to keep my arguments secular.
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silenceofmind-
I haven’t passed judgment on you. I have shamed you because I think you are being obnoxious.
Ark-
I can’t disagree with that. We Christians should tread carefully – more carefully than we do at times.
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oh is that so? and while you do such a good job of it, i think a change in topic is okay. Unless you have anymore un-evidence to provide in your secular argument?
and i guess and argument tends to get religious when you’re making pro-religious claims…
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William,
The so-called “old stories” are integral to the Hebrew culture and Jewish faith.
Calling the basis of one of the world’s most influential culture’s “old stories” is provincial to say the least.
And such labeling is further indication that atheism stunts intellectual development while putting personal bias on steroids.
The result is a return to intellectual pre-modernity. Atheists are precisely what they accuse people of faith of being.
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Archae,
The English translation of my comment is that since archeology isn’t conclusive vis a vis the existence of Moses and Jesus, there is no good reason to badger Jews and Christians for believing that they do exist.
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Josh,
You said I should be ashamed of myself. That’s you, judging me.
You must judge people as a matter of habit. That’s why you don’t notice when you do it.
Now why don’t you put your deep, abiding hypocrisy aside and join the discussion.
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William,
You folks are the ones making the claims about evidence.
My claim is that your statement about evidence proving that Jesus and Moses didn’t exist is false.
You people claimed that Jesus and Moses didn’t exist because a consensus of archeologists says so.
Such a claim doesn’t pass the smell test.
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