Agnosticism, Atheism, Bible Study, Christianity, Faith, God, Morality, Religion, Truth

Letter to Kathy (the Bible Has Problems)

Dear Kathy,

Since you graciously agreed (in our recent conversation) to let me present you with some examples of the Bible’s problems, I decided to do it in this way so it would have its own comment thread. As I’ve said, when I was a Christian, one strike against the Bible was not enough to shake my faith — maybe it only seemed problematic, maybe there was an explanation we hadn’t uncovered yet, maybe the historical accounts were wrong, etc. But as the problems began to mount up, I reached a point where I could no longer deny the fact that the Bible had actual errors.

A couple of suggestions before we begin. Try to be as open-minded about this as possible. As you go through these examples, ask yourself if God would allow such problems to exist in a message that he wanted all people to accept and believe? According to the Bible, whenever God sent someone a message, whether it was Pharaoh or Gideon or Nebuchadnezzar or Paul, they had no question whom it was from. They didn’t always follow it, as we see with people like Pharaoh and Solomon, but they didn’t question the source of the message or what it stated. So why would God operate differently today? Why would he want us to be so confused about his message that we’re able to question whether or not it’s really from him?

Another thing to keep in mind is that even if you come to the conclusion that the Bible has actual problems, that doesn’t mean you have to stop believing in God. There are a number of Christians who don’t believe in inerrancy. And even if you lose faith in the Christian god, that still doesn’t mean you have to stop believing in God. A number of people, including several of our founding fathers, were deists. I have a lot of sympathy for that view and plan to do a post on it soon.

Some of the items listed here will have links that provide additional information, especially when the issue is too detailed to list here. I hope that you’ll check out those links, since some of them are quite significant points. And regardless of how this article strikes you, I hope it will help serve as a great springboard to launch you into your own research.

Some of the Problems

Creation
The creation accounts in Genesis do not match what we’ve learned through science. This isn’t shocking news, but it bears looking into. Evolution and the Big Bang Theory had nothing to do with my deconversion, but I’ve learned more about both since leaving Christianity. It’s shocking how much misinformation I had been operating under. Not to say that all Christians are that way — that was simply my experience. But the evidence for both evolution and the Big Bang are far more substantial than I had ever realized. Two good resources for learning more about these issues are the following (though I’d also recommend checking out the recent Cosmos series, as well as some of the PBS NOVA specials):

Marco’s Daddy and the Beginning of Life on Earth


http://talkorigins.org/

Another problem with the creation accounts is that Genesis 1 says that plants and trees were made on the 3rd day, while man was made on the 6th. But Genesis 2:5-9 says that man was created before there were any plants or trees in the land. Also, the 1st chapter says that man was created after all the animals, but the 2nd chapter implies that it was the other way around. It seems strange that such discrepancies would exist only a chapter apart, but there are a number of textual clues that suggest the first 5 books of the Bible were assembled over a long period of time from various writings written by a number of different people. Many scholars believe that Genesis 1 and 2 represent two separate versions of the creation story that were both included because the compilers didn’t know which was more accurate. Whatever the reason, there’s no question that the differences exist and are hard to explain.

10 Plagues
During the 10 plagues, God afflicts all of Egypt’s livestock with a disease (Ex 9:1-7), and it specifies that it would affect the “horses, the donkeys, the camels, the herds, and the flocks.” We’re told that all of Egypt’s livestock died. But the later plague of boils was said to affect both man and beast (verse 10 of chapter 9). Maybe it meant non-livestock animals. But Ex 11:5 says that the death of the firstborn would also affect Egypt’s cattle, and in Exodus 14, Pharaoh pursues the Israelites with horses.

Hares Chew the Cud
Leviticus 11:6 tells us that hares chew the cud. They do not. Animals that chew the cud are called ruminants. When they eat plant matter, it goes to their first stomach to soften, and then it’s regurgitated to their mouth. They spend time re-chewing it, and then it is swallowed and fully digested. Ruminants (cows, sheep, goats, etc.) are recognizable because their chewing of the cud is very obvious. Hares (rabbits) don’t chew the cud; however, their mouths do move frequently, so it’s possible to see why some people may have assumed that they do chew the cud. Of course, God would know they didn’t, and this is why the passage is problematic. You can read more about this here.

Arphaxad
In the genealogy given in Genesis 11:10-12, we see that Noah fathered Shem and Shem fathered Arphaxad. At the age of 35, Arphaxad fathered Shelah. This information is confirmed in 1 Chron 1:18. But Luke 3:35-36 tells us that Arphaxad’s son was Cainan, and he was the father of Shelah.

Where does Luke get this information? It disagrees with the Old Testament, so who should we believe? Some have suggested that Genesis and 1 Chronicles simply left out Cainan for some reason. But why would they do that? To further complicate it, how could Cainan have fit in there? Genesis tells us that Arphaxad was 35 when he fathered Shelah. Does it really seem likely that Arphaxad became a grandfather by 35, especially when you consider the extreme old ages that people lived to at that time?

Another explanation is that some copyist messed up when copying Luke and Cainan is just a mistake. But this is not much better. First of all, the error would have needed to occur early for it to be in all our copies of Luke. Secondly, are we really comfortable saying that we have the inspired word of our creator, but it got messed up by some guy who wasn’t paying close attention? To me, that doesn’t lend a lot of credence to the idea of inspiration or inerrancy.

Instead, the most likely explanation is that Luke made a mistake. This, of course, would indicate that he was not inspired.

Problems in the Book of Daniel
In Daniel 5, the writer refers to Belshazzar as the son of Nebuchadnezzar 7 different times. Yet we know from multiple contemporary sources that Belshazzar’s father was Nabonidus, who was not related to Nebuchadnezzar. The same chapter says that Darius the Mede took over Babylon, but this person does not seem to have ever existed. Daniel says that he was the son of Ahaseurus, and in mentioning this, the author of Daniel indicates that he was thinking of a later ruler — the persian emperor Darius the Great, whose son was Ahaseurus. This post in particular goes into the problems surrounding the 5th chapter, but if you’d like to learn about the problems in the rest of the book, you can access each article in the series here.

Jairus’s Daughter
In Mark 5:23, Jairus finds Jesus and says that his daughter is at the point of death. While they’re on their way to the house, some of his servants find them on the way and say that she has died and there’s no point in troubling Jesus further.

However, in Matthew 9:18, Jairus already knows that his daughter has died, but tells Jesus that if he’ll lay his hands on her, she’ll live. This may seem like a minor difference, but honestly, there’s only one scenario that could be true. Either the girl was already dead, or she wasn’t. And if Jairus already knew she was dead, then there was no point in his servants coming to tell him that (so of course, they don’t appear in Matthew’s account).

The Centurion
This is similar to the previous issue. Matthew and Luke both record a centurion who asks Jesus to heal his sick servant. Matthew 8:5-13 says that the centurion himself comes before Jesus to ask for help. Luke 7:1-10 says that the Jewish elders went on his behalf, and then he sent servants to follow up. In Luke, Jesus never speaks to, or even sees, the centurion at all.

Hight Priest
In Mark 2:23-28, Jesus talks about the occasion from the Old Testament when David ate the showbread, which Jesus said was in the days of Abiathar the high priest. However, in 1 Samuel 21:1-6, it appears that Ahimelech was the high priest. Some have tried to answer this problem by saying that Abiathar was alive during that particular episode, so Jesus’ statement is still true. But that’s obviously not the intent of the passage. After all, we would correct anyone who said that the tragedy of 9/11 occurred during the days of President Barack Obama. He may have been alive at the time, but that event did not happen while he was President.

430 Years
Galatians 3:16-17 says this:

The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ. What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise.

Here, Paul says that the law came 430 years after the promises were made to Abraham. But in Exodus 12:40-41, we see:

Now the length of time the Israelite people lived in Egypt was 430 years. At the end of the 430 years, to the very day, all the LORD’s divisions left Egypt.

If the Israelites were in Egypt 430 years, then there could not have been 430 years between Abraham’s promises and the law. God made the promises to Abraham in Genesis 12:1-3, and as we read on through Genesis, we see that Abraham had no children at this time. Later, he had a son named Isaac. When Isaac was 60 years old, he had Jacob (Gen 25:24-26), and Jacob had 12 sons that produced the 12 tribes of Israel. Already, we can see that some time has passed since Abraham received the promise. Once Jacob’s sons were all grown with families of their own, they finally settled in Egypt. Jacob was 130 years old at this time (Gen 47:9), and this marks the beginning of that 430 year period that the Israelites spent in Egypt.

That means that the time between the promise to Abraham and the giving of the law was actually over 600 years. So why did Paul say 430 years? I think it’s obvious that this was a simple mistake. He remembered the 430 year figure because that’s how much time the Israelites spent in Egypt, and so he simply misspoke. It’s not a big deal… except that he’s supposed to be inspired by God.

Jesus’ Birth
There are a number of issues surrounding Jesus’ birth. First, Matthew’s and Luke’s accounts contradict one another on virtually all the details, which you can read about here. Secondly, Matthew seems to invent an episode where Herod kills all the children in Bethlehem who are 2 and under, causing Mary, Joseph, and Jesus to flee to Egypt (instead of just returning home to Nazareth, because only Luke says that they started in Nazareth). Matthew does this in order to “fulfill” some Old Testament passages that actually have nothing to do with Jesus or killing babies. You can read about Matthew’s misuse of the Old Testament here — it’s quite blatant.

The Virgin Birth is one of the most famous aspects of Jesus’ story, and it was supposedly done in fulfillment of a prophecy from Isaiah. But it turns out that Isaiah was prophesying no such thing — he was talking about an event that was happening in his own time, and Matthew (once again) just appropriated the “prophecy” for his own devices. You can read all the details here.

Another problem concerning Jesus’ birth narratives is that Matthew and Luke both offer genealogies for Jesus, but they are completely different from one another. Worse, they don’t match the genealogies listed in the Old Testament, either. And Matthew claims that there was a pattern in the number of generations between Abraham and David, between David and the Babylonian captivity, and between the Babylonian captivity and Christ. But to get this neat division, he is forced to leave out some names. In other words, that pattern didn’t happen. You can read more about that here.

The Triumphal Entry
While not as blatant as most of these other issues, when Matthew recounts Jesus’ triumphal entry into Jerusalem, he once again borrows from the Old Testament, but seems to make a mistake in his implementation. See here for more info.

Judas’ Death
Judas is well known for being the disciple that betrayed Jesus, but what’s not as well known is there are two different accounts of his death, and it’s very hard to reconcile them. According to Matthew, Judas threw his money down at the chief priests’ feet and went out and hanged himself. We’re not told where he did this. The priests then take the money, and instead of putting it back in the treasury (since it’s blood money), they buy a field to use for burying strangers. Because they bought the field with this money, it’s called the “Field of Blood.”

According to Acts, Judas bought a field with his money (we’re not told that he was remorseful), and he somehow fell down, bursting open in the middle and bleeding to death. The field was called “Field of Blood” after that because of the manner in which Judas died.

To make things more complicated, Matthew (of course) says that this happened in accordance with Jeremiah’s prophecy, but there’s nothing in Jeremiah that matches up. The closest reference comes from Zechariah, not Jeremiah.

These issues really complicate the notion of divine inspiration, and you can read more about them here.

The Crucifixion
There are several big problems with the way the gospels record the events of Jesus’ death, including the fact that different times of day are given for it, and even different days altogether. You can read more about this here.

The Resurrection
There are also a number of problems concerning the resurrection, some minor, some major. They’re too involved to get into here, but you can read all about them here and here.

The Problem of Hell
The notion of Hell is fraught with problems. It might even surprise you to learn that the Bible’s teachings on the afterlife change dramatically between the Old and New Testaments. I go into detail about Hell’s problems here, here, and here.

The Problem of Evil
Another huge problem for Christianity is the problem of evil, which I talk about here. This post also addresses the “problem of Heaven.”

The Bible’s Morality
While a number of people believe that the Christian god is the source of all morality, the Bible is actually filled with some monstrous acts that are either commanded by God, done with his consent, or carried out by him directly. I talk about some specific examples here, and I address some of the common responses to them here.

Conclusion

Kathy, there are a number of other examples that could be given, including the prophecy of Tyre that we’ve been discussing. But to me, these are some of the most significant and clear-cut problems. We could try to manufacture explanations for every one of these — some might be more believable than others. But why should we have to? If a perfect God inspired this book, why should it contain so many discrepancies? And honestly, some of these issues can’t be explained. They’re just wrong. The problems go well beyond internal contradictions and unfulfilled prophecies. There are problems of authorship, problems with the doctrines, and problems with the way the texts were written, transcribed, and compiled.

I’m sure you’ve spent your time as a Christian trying to reach those who are lost. You’ve always believed that Christianity is truth, and it’s the one thing that everyone needs. But could it be that Christianity is just as false as every other religion in the world? And if that’s the case, wouldn’t you want to leave it behind? When one is dedicated to finding truth, they have to be prepared to follow it wherever it leads. It’s not always easy or popular. It’s not even a guarantee that you’re right. All it means is that you follow the evidence where it leads to the best of your ability. If you find out that you’re wrong about something, you adjust course when the evidence dictates. If God exists, and if he’s righteous, what more could he ask for than that? I’ll close with my favorite quote:

Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.
— Marcus Aurelius

1,782 thoughts on “Letter to Kathy (the Bible Has Problems)”

  1. Hi Nan,
    Charles Stanley’s sermons are mostly for people who already believe.. and I fully understand when you say you’ve “heard it all before”.. I’m not sure there would be a particular message/ sermon as much as just seeing an intelligent person and his strong faith. I honestly can’t think of anything right now that I would direct a non believer to.. Billy Graham is the same.. they preach to people to help them grow in their faith.. it’s something we must always be “working out”.. and always be on our guard against those who want to separate us from God. It would help if I knew why you stopped believing. Overall, I have my very own points and arguments that I present to atheists, and that I feel successfully argues for God’s existence.

    You said:

    “He uses words identical to what I heard when I was a Christian — words that I once believed were “truth” at its deepest level.

    However, things have changed. I no longer believe in the Christian message so words like this have no effect on me. I’m sure this is difficult for you to understand — as it would have been for me when I was a Christian. ”

    Ok, so you once considered yourself a sincere Christian.. so my question would be the same to you as it was to Ruth.. what could have possible happened to make you no longer a believer? What made you believe in the first place and made you change your mind? That would be my question. Because I honestly can’t think of any possible reasons.

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  2. Hi Portal.. you said:

    “… your question regarding Islam and free will is interesting because as far as I know Islam means submission. You can’t submit to something or someone unless you have free will…”

    Yes, they do have free will.. but then it’s taken away from them.. or their lives are taken away.

    My point is that if “allah” wanted them to be forced to follow him, why did he bother to give them free will in the first place?

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  3. Nate, I want to address your response on my science question.. but I’ll answer this one right now… that one probably later today/night.

    You said: “Kathy, your comment wouldn’t have worked in the time of Joshua. The god that commanded Israelites to slaughter all the inhabitants of Canaan is indistinguishable from a god who would inspire 9/11. If that’s how you tell which faith is true, then I’m puzzled by your allegiance to the god of Christianity.”

    This just isn’t true. They are ENTIRELY different circumstances. The people who died on 9/11 were innocent people. The people in Canaan were enemies of God at a time when God was establishing Himself with His creation. Everything He did then was necessary to advance His plan. Yes, there were enemies of God in the towers on 9/11.. but today isn’t the same situation or the same people as 4,000 yrs or so ago. Different people, different situation.. and different plan than the plan of Islam.. aka submission or death. God’s plan is to reveal Himself to us, and offer us a chance to spend eternity with Him. And this plan was put into action when He revealed himself through the Jewish people.

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  4. Nate, cont..

    You said:

    “And this is exactly what Ruth was responding to. If suicide bombers aren’t good evidence for Islam, then people like Meriam aren’t good evidence for Christianity. You can’t have it both ways.

    Meriam’s case is evidence for her belief in Christianity, but that has no correlation to Christianity’s validity.”

    I had already explained how your conclusion is not valid in my comments to Ruth, but I’ll explain again..

    Nate, they are entirely different circumstances.. a sociopath taking the lives of innocent people and a peaceful loving sane person ALLOWING someone to take their life because they refuse to denounce Christ are just NOT the same thing. When a rational sane “good” person does something, it has infinitely more meaning & testimony as opposed to an evil, irrational person.. motive is one of many critical CIRCUMSTANCES that determine the value of the testimony. And that testimony is most certainly is evidence for God’s existence.. you may choose to not put much value on that.. that’s your choice.. but I contend that OBJECTIVE people/ who suppress their bias, will see it as very valuable testimony to God’s existence.

    And so YES, it CAN be both ways.. depending on the circumstances/ reasons/ actions or lack of actions (not killing others).

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  5. “Kathy, your comment wouldn’t have worked in the time of Joshua. The god that commanded Israelites to slaughter all the inhabitants of Canaan is indistinguishable from a god who would inspire 9/11. I”

    Ridiculous and silly nonsense. In one instance you have cultures that committed all kinds of atrocities including child sacrifice, forced prostitution of women and girls and murder that God states would propagate their practices if they continued and in another you have terrorists trying to do nothing but make a political statement and hit out at the Unites States regardless of who they hit

    As usual you are begging bread. Try doing some real research for once into the practices of these “innocent” canaanites.

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  6. Kathy, I have two suggestions. (1) Go to Amazon and download the “sample” of my book. The entire Preface should be included and it explains a lot about why I left the faith; or (2) visit my blog and leave your email address on the Contact page and I will send you a copy of the entire eBook. Please let me know the format you prefer (pdf or epub).

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  7. “Hi Nan, I just downloaded the sample and I’ll read it later this evening.. thanks.”

    You are blessed with free time my sister. Just looking at the sample tells me you will not be impressed. I take it over half the reviews are from this merry crew? This is probably the most accurate

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  8. I never claimed that giving one’s life makes the faith real.. that would be an unreasonable claim. What I AM claiming is that it is compelling evidence (in Meriam’s case) for God’s existence.
    No, it isn’t. It’s compelling evidence (in Meriam’s case) for Meriam’s BELIEF in God’s existence – there’s a BIG difference.

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  9. @Kathy,

    I can’t imagine what it would be outside of losing a loved one maybe? But that would really be disappointment in God, not a loss of faith. I’m just wondering if it is some scientific reason or how you interpret the Bible.. and how that would be so powerful to cause you to stop believing in the God you were willing to die for. I honestly can’t say that I wouldn’t judge your reasons.. I openly judge 99.9% of all atheists as allowing pride & ego to prevent them from acknowledging God.

    Then I am already judged. My reasons matter not. They wouldn’t be good enough for anyone who believes they are the holder of truth. I don’t say that to be rude. I’ve watched you comment all over this thread and others. I was you. I’ve said the same things you now say. And I believed them wholeheartedly. And I judged atheists in the same exact way. All I can do now is tell them I’m sorry.

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  10. Dear Arch..
    You’re obnoxious.

    That’s the nicest thing you’ve ever said to me – I’m growing on you, aren’t I –?

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  11. “I never claimed that giving one’s life makes the faith real.. that would be an unreasonable claim. What I AM claiming is that it is compelling evidence (in Meriam’s case) for God’s existence.”

    In Meriam’s case it only makes it compelling evidence if it’s the God you already believe in. I pointed out to you that many of us in this very forum signed the petition that helped her gain her freedom. That’s because whether you know it or not, whether you like it or not, we do believe in freedom of religion and we don’t think anyone should be put to death because of them. We do value people. Even when we don’t agree with them.

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  12. Arch’s comment:

    “I never claimed that giving one’s life makes the faith real.. that would be an unreasonable claim. What I AM claiming is that it is compelling evidence (in Meriam’s case) for God’s existence.”
    No, it isn’t. It’s compelling evidence (in Meriam’s case) for Meriam’s BELIEF in God’s existence – there’s a BIG difference.

    ************************

    And I’m sorry but you (all of you) are wrong on this. As much as you would LOVE to devalue what Christian martyrs do/ are doing.. you can’t. It IS testimony to God’s existence. It is testimony to the Holy Spirit.. no one could do this without God’s help. You all can dismiss it but people who are truly objective will see it as a compelling testimony for the truth of the Bible and God’s existence. Sorry that is inconvenient to your agenda.. but that’s the WHOLE IDEA.

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  13. You all can dismiss it but people who are truly objective will see it as a compelling testimony for the truth of the Bible and God’s existence.

    Because you can’t be truly objective and not believe?

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  14. “Because you can’t be truly objective and not believe?”

    How it the world can you conclude she cannot be objective? Thats just rhetoric. Personally I would modify the argument she is making a bit but she hasn’t said that that is her sole reason for faith so your assessment is pretty off.

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  15. Ruth, I judge atheists based on the facts. We have NO PROOF that God doesn’t exist. We have MUCH evidence that He does. I’ve made the factual claim that it’s at least a 50/50 chance that we are created beings. No one has challenged this.. why not?? Because it’s true. These facts alone are enough to question the true reasons for why people decide we don’t have a Creator.

    And I apply that same reasoning to why the God of the Bible IS our Creator.. the Bible gives us the most rational explanation for our existence.

    I see no valid excuses for claiming God doesn’t exist.. none. My judgments are just. If anyone can convince me that I am wrong.. I’ll apologize.. but not before.

    And I thought that was the REASON for this site.. to find the truth … anyone who really desires that would be more than willing to debate to try and obtain that truth.. instead most here were asking for the “plug” to be pulled for this thread.

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  16. Kathy, I know all sorts of books have been suggested to you that you will never have time to read. I want to add 1 more that you will probably never have time to read either. Why even bother ? Because this book was written by the late Charles Templeton. This name would not be familiar to many people here in the USA but he was widely known in Canada. Why ? Because he was considered the “Billy Graham of Canada” . He also happened to be one of Billy Graham’s best friends . Their ministries started at around the same time. Templeton urged Graham to go with him to further their education in Theological Seminary and Graham declined. Templeton went on to Seminary and later renounced his faith in Christ.

    You have asked Nate, Ruth and Nan how they could be committed to Christ to be willing to die for their faith only to later renounce it ?

    Charles Templeton’s book, “Farewell to God” will show you how a national religious figure in his country and close friends with Billy Graham later renounced his faith. Just a suggestion.

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  17. In fairness I will say though kathy that you could be objective and not get that as compelling testimony. I think the early church willing to die and separate themselves from an existing religion is somewhat compelling as to something real happening but perhaps now the evidence of someone being willing to die today would be a less direct evidence.

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  18. The people in Canaan were enemies of God” – that, of course, includes the little children who were slaughtered and the pregnant women whose bellies were slit open, and of course – last, but not least – the unborn babies – you know, the ones you condemn abortionists for killing – who were ripped from the slit womb. Enemies of your god, all. Right?

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  19. @ Mike,

    I know that Meriam’s case isn’t her whole argument. She’s just repeatedly said how objective she is as if to come to any other conclusion than hers is not being objective.

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  20. “Charles Templeton’s book, “Farewell to God” will show you how a national religious figure in his country and close friends with Billy Graham later renounced his faith. Just a suggestion.”

    and so what? all of these references to Christians who denied their faith invalidates Christianity how? Its such vastly silly reasoning. what of the millions who never invalidating their faith?

    Perhaps this is why Kathy brought it up (I haven’t been able to follow all conversations). On one hand your side is so weak in claims that they have to keep referring to a relative few people who flaked out on their faith as you did as proof but then you turn around and claim athy is off because she points to believer s who facing death will not renounce. Where did you people learn to think (if ever)?

    If you can beg that people leaving the faith is evidence of their being problem then logically she can claim that those never leaving validate it. simple

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