Agnosticism, Atheism, Bible Study, Christianity, Faith, God, Morality, Religion, Truth

Letter to Kathy (the Bible Has Problems)

Dear Kathy,

Since you graciously agreed (in our recent conversation) to let me present you with some examples of the Bible’s problems, I decided to do it in this way so it would have its own comment thread. As I’ve said, when I was a Christian, one strike against the Bible was not enough to shake my faith — maybe it only seemed problematic, maybe there was an explanation we hadn’t uncovered yet, maybe the historical accounts were wrong, etc. But as the problems began to mount up, I reached a point where I could no longer deny the fact that the Bible had actual errors.

A couple of suggestions before we begin. Try to be as open-minded about this as possible. As you go through these examples, ask yourself if God would allow such problems to exist in a message that he wanted all people to accept and believe? According to the Bible, whenever God sent someone a message, whether it was Pharaoh or Gideon or Nebuchadnezzar or Paul, they had no question whom it was from. They didn’t always follow it, as we see with people like Pharaoh and Solomon, but they didn’t question the source of the message or what it stated. So why would God operate differently today? Why would he want us to be so confused about his message that we’re able to question whether or not it’s really from him?

Another thing to keep in mind is that even if you come to the conclusion that the Bible has actual problems, that doesn’t mean you have to stop believing in God. There are a number of Christians who don’t believe in inerrancy. And even if you lose faith in the Christian god, that still doesn’t mean you have to stop believing in God. A number of people, including several of our founding fathers, were deists. I have a lot of sympathy for that view and plan to do a post on it soon.

Some of the items listed here will have links that provide additional information, especially when the issue is too detailed to list here. I hope that you’ll check out those links, since some of them are quite significant points. And regardless of how this article strikes you, I hope it will help serve as a great springboard to launch you into your own research.

Some of the Problems

Creation
The creation accounts in Genesis do not match what we’ve learned through science. This isn’t shocking news, but it bears looking into. Evolution and the Big Bang Theory had nothing to do with my deconversion, but I’ve learned more about both since leaving Christianity. It’s shocking how much misinformation I had been operating under. Not to say that all Christians are that way — that was simply my experience. But the evidence for both evolution and the Big Bang are far more substantial than I had ever realized. Two good resources for learning more about these issues are the following (though I’d also recommend checking out the recent Cosmos series, as well as some of the PBS NOVA specials):

Marco’s Daddy and the Beginning of Life on Earth


http://talkorigins.org/

Another problem with the creation accounts is that Genesis 1 says that plants and trees were made on the 3rd day, while man was made on the 6th. But Genesis 2:5-9 says that man was created before there were any plants or trees in the land. Also, the 1st chapter says that man was created after all the animals, but the 2nd chapter implies that it was the other way around. It seems strange that such discrepancies would exist only a chapter apart, but there are a number of textual clues that suggest the first 5 books of the Bible were assembled over a long period of time from various writings written by a number of different people. Many scholars believe that Genesis 1 and 2 represent two separate versions of the creation story that were both included because the compilers didn’t know which was more accurate. Whatever the reason, there’s no question that the differences exist and are hard to explain.

10 Plagues
During the 10 plagues, God afflicts all of Egypt’s livestock with a disease (Ex 9:1-7), and it specifies that it would affect the “horses, the donkeys, the camels, the herds, and the flocks.” We’re told that all of Egypt’s livestock died. But the later plague of boils was said to affect both man and beast (verse 10 of chapter 9). Maybe it meant non-livestock animals. But Ex 11:5 says that the death of the firstborn would also affect Egypt’s cattle, and in Exodus 14, Pharaoh pursues the Israelites with horses.

Hares Chew the Cud
Leviticus 11:6 tells us that hares chew the cud. They do not. Animals that chew the cud are called ruminants. When they eat plant matter, it goes to their first stomach to soften, and then it’s regurgitated to their mouth. They spend time re-chewing it, and then it is swallowed and fully digested. Ruminants (cows, sheep, goats, etc.) are recognizable because their chewing of the cud is very obvious. Hares (rabbits) don’t chew the cud; however, their mouths do move frequently, so it’s possible to see why some people may have assumed that they do chew the cud. Of course, God would know they didn’t, and this is why the passage is problematic. You can read more about this here.

Arphaxad
In the genealogy given in Genesis 11:10-12, we see that Noah fathered Shem and Shem fathered Arphaxad. At the age of 35, Arphaxad fathered Shelah. This information is confirmed in 1 Chron 1:18. But Luke 3:35-36 tells us that Arphaxad’s son was Cainan, and he was the father of Shelah.

Where does Luke get this information? It disagrees with the Old Testament, so who should we believe? Some have suggested that Genesis and 1 Chronicles simply left out Cainan for some reason. But why would they do that? To further complicate it, how could Cainan have fit in there? Genesis tells us that Arphaxad was 35 when he fathered Shelah. Does it really seem likely that Arphaxad became a grandfather by 35, especially when you consider the extreme old ages that people lived to at that time?

Another explanation is that some copyist messed up when copying Luke and Cainan is just a mistake. But this is not much better. First of all, the error would have needed to occur early for it to be in all our copies of Luke. Secondly, are we really comfortable saying that we have the inspired word of our creator, but it got messed up by some guy who wasn’t paying close attention? To me, that doesn’t lend a lot of credence to the idea of inspiration or inerrancy.

Instead, the most likely explanation is that Luke made a mistake. This, of course, would indicate that he was not inspired.

Problems in the Book of Daniel
In Daniel 5, the writer refers to Belshazzar as the son of Nebuchadnezzar 7 different times. Yet we know from multiple contemporary sources that Belshazzar’s father was Nabonidus, who was not related to Nebuchadnezzar. The same chapter says that Darius the Mede took over Babylon, but this person does not seem to have ever existed. Daniel says that he was the son of Ahaseurus, and in mentioning this, the author of Daniel indicates that he was thinking of a later ruler — the persian emperor Darius the Great, whose son was Ahaseurus. This post in particular goes into the problems surrounding the 5th chapter, but if you’d like to learn about the problems in the rest of the book, you can access each article in the series here.

Jairus’s Daughter
In Mark 5:23, Jairus finds Jesus and says that his daughter is at the point of death. While they’re on their way to the house, some of his servants find them on the way and say that she has died and there’s no point in troubling Jesus further.

However, in Matthew 9:18, Jairus already knows that his daughter has died, but tells Jesus that if he’ll lay his hands on her, she’ll live. This may seem like a minor difference, but honestly, there’s only one scenario that could be true. Either the girl was already dead, or she wasn’t. And if Jairus already knew she was dead, then there was no point in his servants coming to tell him that (so of course, they don’t appear in Matthew’s account).

The Centurion
This is similar to the previous issue. Matthew and Luke both record a centurion who asks Jesus to heal his sick servant. Matthew 8:5-13 says that the centurion himself comes before Jesus to ask for help. Luke 7:1-10 says that the Jewish elders went on his behalf, and then he sent servants to follow up. In Luke, Jesus never speaks to, or even sees, the centurion at all.

Hight Priest
In Mark 2:23-28, Jesus talks about the occasion from the Old Testament when David ate the showbread, which Jesus said was in the days of Abiathar the high priest. However, in 1 Samuel 21:1-6, it appears that Ahimelech was the high priest. Some have tried to answer this problem by saying that Abiathar was alive during that particular episode, so Jesus’ statement is still true. But that’s obviously not the intent of the passage. After all, we would correct anyone who said that the tragedy of 9/11 occurred during the days of President Barack Obama. He may have been alive at the time, but that event did not happen while he was President.

430 Years
Galatians 3:16-17 says this:

The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ. What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise.

Here, Paul says that the law came 430 years after the promises were made to Abraham. But in Exodus 12:40-41, we see:

Now the length of time the Israelite people lived in Egypt was 430 years. At the end of the 430 years, to the very day, all the LORD’s divisions left Egypt.

If the Israelites were in Egypt 430 years, then there could not have been 430 years between Abraham’s promises and the law. God made the promises to Abraham in Genesis 12:1-3, and as we read on through Genesis, we see that Abraham had no children at this time. Later, he had a son named Isaac. When Isaac was 60 years old, he had Jacob (Gen 25:24-26), and Jacob had 12 sons that produced the 12 tribes of Israel. Already, we can see that some time has passed since Abraham received the promise. Once Jacob’s sons were all grown with families of their own, they finally settled in Egypt. Jacob was 130 years old at this time (Gen 47:9), and this marks the beginning of that 430 year period that the Israelites spent in Egypt.

That means that the time between the promise to Abraham and the giving of the law was actually over 600 years. So why did Paul say 430 years? I think it’s obvious that this was a simple mistake. He remembered the 430 year figure because that’s how much time the Israelites spent in Egypt, and so he simply misspoke. It’s not a big deal… except that he’s supposed to be inspired by God.

Jesus’ Birth
There are a number of issues surrounding Jesus’ birth. First, Matthew’s and Luke’s accounts contradict one another on virtually all the details, which you can read about here. Secondly, Matthew seems to invent an episode where Herod kills all the children in Bethlehem who are 2 and under, causing Mary, Joseph, and Jesus to flee to Egypt (instead of just returning home to Nazareth, because only Luke says that they started in Nazareth). Matthew does this in order to “fulfill” some Old Testament passages that actually have nothing to do with Jesus or killing babies. You can read about Matthew’s misuse of the Old Testament here — it’s quite blatant.

The Virgin Birth is one of the most famous aspects of Jesus’ story, and it was supposedly done in fulfillment of a prophecy from Isaiah. But it turns out that Isaiah was prophesying no such thing — he was talking about an event that was happening in his own time, and Matthew (once again) just appropriated the “prophecy” for his own devices. You can read all the details here.

Another problem concerning Jesus’ birth narratives is that Matthew and Luke both offer genealogies for Jesus, but they are completely different from one another. Worse, they don’t match the genealogies listed in the Old Testament, either. And Matthew claims that there was a pattern in the number of generations between Abraham and David, between David and the Babylonian captivity, and between the Babylonian captivity and Christ. But to get this neat division, he is forced to leave out some names. In other words, that pattern didn’t happen. You can read more about that here.

The Triumphal Entry
While not as blatant as most of these other issues, when Matthew recounts Jesus’ triumphal entry into Jerusalem, he once again borrows from the Old Testament, but seems to make a mistake in his implementation. See here for more info.

Judas’ Death
Judas is well known for being the disciple that betrayed Jesus, but what’s not as well known is there are two different accounts of his death, and it’s very hard to reconcile them. According to Matthew, Judas threw his money down at the chief priests’ feet and went out and hanged himself. We’re not told where he did this. The priests then take the money, and instead of putting it back in the treasury (since it’s blood money), they buy a field to use for burying strangers. Because they bought the field with this money, it’s called the “Field of Blood.”

According to Acts, Judas bought a field with his money (we’re not told that he was remorseful), and he somehow fell down, bursting open in the middle and bleeding to death. The field was called “Field of Blood” after that because of the manner in which Judas died.

To make things more complicated, Matthew (of course) says that this happened in accordance with Jeremiah’s prophecy, but there’s nothing in Jeremiah that matches up. The closest reference comes from Zechariah, not Jeremiah.

These issues really complicate the notion of divine inspiration, and you can read more about them here.

The Crucifixion
There are several big problems with the way the gospels record the events of Jesus’ death, including the fact that different times of day are given for it, and even different days altogether. You can read more about this here.

The Resurrection
There are also a number of problems concerning the resurrection, some minor, some major. They’re too involved to get into here, but you can read all about them here and here.

The Problem of Hell
The notion of Hell is fraught with problems. It might even surprise you to learn that the Bible’s teachings on the afterlife change dramatically between the Old and New Testaments. I go into detail about Hell’s problems here, here, and here.

The Problem of Evil
Another huge problem for Christianity is the problem of evil, which I talk about here. This post also addresses the “problem of Heaven.”

The Bible’s Morality
While a number of people believe that the Christian god is the source of all morality, the Bible is actually filled with some monstrous acts that are either commanded by God, done with his consent, or carried out by him directly. I talk about some specific examples here, and I address some of the common responses to them here.

Conclusion

Kathy, there are a number of other examples that could be given, including the prophecy of Tyre that we’ve been discussing. But to me, these are some of the most significant and clear-cut problems. We could try to manufacture explanations for every one of these — some might be more believable than others. But why should we have to? If a perfect God inspired this book, why should it contain so many discrepancies? And honestly, some of these issues can’t be explained. They’re just wrong. The problems go well beyond internal contradictions and unfulfilled prophecies. There are problems of authorship, problems with the doctrines, and problems with the way the texts were written, transcribed, and compiled.

I’m sure you’ve spent your time as a Christian trying to reach those who are lost. You’ve always believed that Christianity is truth, and it’s the one thing that everyone needs. But could it be that Christianity is just as false as every other religion in the world? And if that’s the case, wouldn’t you want to leave it behind? When one is dedicated to finding truth, they have to be prepared to follow it wherever it leads. It’s not always easy or popular. It’s not even a guarantee that you’re right. All it means is that you follow the evidence where it leads to the best of your ability. If you find out that you’re wrong about something, you adjust course when the evidence dictates. If God exists, and if he’s righteous, what more could he ask for than that? I’ll close with my favorite quote:

Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.
— Marcus Aurelius

1,782 thoughts on “Letter to Kathy (the Bible Has Problems)”

  1. Mike,… my guardian angel 🙂 Don’t worry Mike, the idea that Nate or any atheist will turn me into an unbeliever literally makes me laugh (out loud).. which reminds me.. I thought of a question earlier today that I want to pose to these guys..

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  2. “to be honest I would have been gone by now but Kathy came along and well since Nate took the mask off of “i am just sharing my experience” and went full “I want to get you to lose your faith mode” it was my Christian responsibility to try my best to assist in thwarting such an evil intent. Whether Nate bans me or not I’ll be done when Kathy is gone.”

    I’m sorry you can’t think for yourself, Kathy . At least that’s what Mike thinks . The history of christianity is filled with Mikes who were afraid someone might lead their friends astray.

    Wait a minute ! Didn’t this start with God ? Wasn’t he constantly having to kill people who might lead his chosen people astray ?

    At least you are all doing as your father has taught you .

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  3. ” I was simply saying you were fortunate Nate was allowing you to behave like an adolescent and that you were taking full advantage of it like an adolescent would.”

    Well

    A) How am I being an adolescent because I say your points are nonsense? that you don’t know what you are talking about? that you do little good research? that you make GARBAGE points? Heres a little 411

    I read most of you before i ever responded here. and you see all those things that you call adolescent and obnoxious above ? You do ALL OF THOSE to Christians and long before I was ever here.

    So if yo feel hurt and offended at me being condescending to your views then you know what?

    Good. Sweet Hot chocolate.

    Maybe thats why I came around – to give you a glimpse of what you do and how dismissive you are of other views while pretending to be bastions of openness and fairplay (what a joke).

    B) fortunate? You are again in your “you would lose big time” if nate banned you mode. I’ve already found a way to communicate with kathy. the only sense of loss I would have is if my sister in Christ got swept by deception on your parts

    deception? yeah

    not always on the issue but the idea that your claiming to have been christians before makes you objective or makes you a drop more credible on the relevant subjects. Thats EXTREMELY deceptive

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  4. My question to atheists..

    When I’m debating atheists, my motivation is to combat the evil that keeps people from accepting Jesus’ gift of salvation. I’m doing that by point out the lies and human faults (pride etc) that are destroying people. My question to atheists, including Nate is, what are you fighting against? What “evil” are you combating? What is your motivation behind getting people to reject God?

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  5. The “Good News” about my email program, is that it lists the name of the commenter at the top, which means as soon as I see, “Mike Anthony,” I can hit delete!

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  6. Arch’s comment:

    “instead most here were asking for the ‘plug’ to be pulled for this thread.” Two suggested the ‘plug’ be pulled, which would imply there are only three of us on the board – do you SEE what you do with the truth?”

    More than 2 Arch.. there were a couple who I wasn’t familiar with, who’ve since disappeared.

    “RE: “We have NO PROOF that God doesn’t exist.” – which god would that be (there have been over 2000!)? Please show me your evidence that Zeus does not exist.”

    You make a good point.. UNTIL you look for the actual evidence for Zeus or any other god.. ooops.. no Bible, no Gospels, no witness, martyrs, fulfilled prophecies.. nothing COMPARIBLE.. that helps tremendously in answering which God.

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  7. Kathy, first as I’ve said before, I’m not an atheist; I am, however, a non-believer. There is a difference. I have no interest in you “rejecting” god. I would, however, like you to more carefully examine your beliefs. That is the purpose of my book. There is so much information about Christianity that is never revealed within the faith. If you’ve had a chance to read the first few pages, you will see a quote. This is all I ask of believers.

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  8. Arch said:

    “You know, Ruth, one of the problems, as I see it, is that Kathy views this as a debate, with opposing sides, while I, personally, prefer to think of it as a discussion, with people exchanging ideas. Clearly she has no idea how to debate, I wonder if she can discuss?”

    I mentioned this earlier.. it’s always nice to find people reinforcing my claims.. which has happened several times now re: Ruth’s comments and others.

    Liberals don’t like it when people disagree with them.. they’d prefer you just have “chit chat” I guess.. I was just imagining our next presidential debate.. and the candidates having a friendly chit chat.. over coffee… so America can decide who should next lead our country…the one who can be the most agreeable I guess.. because, that’s all that really matters.. that people don’t get offended.

    “a discussion.. with people exchanging ideas..” ..yes, that’s clearly what a debate is! oh wow..

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  9. “I’m sorry you can’t think for yourself, Kathy . At least that’s what Mike thinks .”

    Your consistency in silliness if applied to other things would serve you well but alas. IF me sticking around to give Kathy another perspective is me saying kathy can’t think for herself then what was Nate’s attempt to have her give up God?

    Your strategies are obvious and lame. When we began to move down Nate’s list dismantling it for the nonsense it was the laundry list wasn’t enough and you all started to throw up everything you could

    its the old lets put up as much garbage as possible regardless of whether its good or not and say well with this many issues something has to be wrong – each time going from claiming to have shown a contradiction to claiming we had to prove it wasn’t a contradiction

    which is just utter garbage.

    You could do what you do with ANY ancient text written in another language and culture. there would always be something a modern person could look a t and say umm i don’t understand that so this is an issue. Good night this is Nate’s all purpose fall back to everything. You could almost see a Nate 2.000 years in the future if the Bible had been written now

    “Well the Bible says the church was cool and we know that it was hot at the time so the bible contradicts what we know. Well the Bible records a reporter talking to bush who calls him Mr. President but we know at the time it was obama that was the president so the Bible made it up. Well the Bible records there was a character called the rock but there was no one named that although there was a dwayne Johnson or one witness in the Bible says they saw a plane slam into one tower but another person says they saw two and another witness says it had this marking and the other says another but yet another says a plane crashed near the pentagon and doesn’t mention towers at all – all proofs the bible is full of contradictions”

    and he would probably have some of your descendants telling him yeah Nate great stuff that really proves the Bible is unreliable.

    skeptics please 🙂

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  10. What is your motivation behind getting people to reject God?” – Which god – Zeus? Odin? Ra? Mithra? Mazda? Please present your evidence for the nonexistence of any or all of these —

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  11. Kathy – RE: “UNTIL you look for the actual evidence for Zeus or any other god..” – now you’ve REALLY aroused my curiosity – exactly how much time and research has your open-mindedness devoted to the study of Zeus and the 2000+ other gods?

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  12. Sorry Kathy, since you CLEARLY know nothing about the principles of debate, I hoped that a discussion might be a little simpler for you. And we both know that simple is your strong suit.

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  13. kcchief, you said:

    ” Charles Templeton’s book, “Farewell to God” will show you how a national religious figure in his country and close friends with Billy Graham later renounced his faith. Just a suggestion.”

    Can you tell me why he renounced his faith? You are right, I just don’t have the time to read all of these books.. and it sounds like you have read it.

    Here’s the thing.. the Bible is full of people who loved God and obeyed Him.. but nearly every single person except for His Son, had fallen at one time or another and let God down. The Bible shows us how to overcome our failings.. but not all are successful, some lose the battle and then the war because they don’t follow the Bible and use it to help get them back on track. They allowed themselves to be overtaken.

    And I’ll just reiterate Mikes point.. it is not a good argument to point out a very few who do fall away.. because the number of believers are so great, it’s expected that there will be some who become misguided and disillusioned. They are the exceptions.. for every one of those there are thousands whose faith is strong and grows stronger every day… like Meriams.. and my own.

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  14. Arch said:

    ““What is your motivation behind getting people to reject God?” – Which god – Zeus? Odin? Ra? Mithra? Mazda? Please present your evidence for the nonexistence of any or all of these –”

    And my question to you is.. WHY?? Why should I present evidence of non existence of something that has ZERO evidence FOR it’s existence to begin with? sheesh…

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  15. “There is so much information about Christianity that is never revealed within the faith. If you’ve had a chance to read the first few pages, you will see a quote. This is all I ask of believers.”

    Well I am not Kathy but I have – is my answer to the question. I said what the hey and downloaded the sample. haven’t read all of it but pretty much what I expected. The first substantive thing you come to is Gilgamesh and you do nothing that is not done at piles of atheist blog’s but claim that because Gilgamesh has certain accounts that are similar to the OT the OT borrowed from it

    you write about it relating stories about the serpent and the flood and you relate the story of gilgamesh as being older than the torah and voila the conclusion is proven. What never seems to occur to you is that the Bible never claims it was written soon after the events happened and that if it really did happen the way the Bible says then OF COURSE other civilizations would have that in their past as well and relate it in different ways. In other words it does not take borrowing to have two books or two stories similar. It only requires two parties have access to the same source preceding it. Who gets to print first is irrelevant.

    After that you just spout on about the documentary hypothesis as if its proven fact, relate about copying errors (but leave out that copies were often done independently and agree in large degree based on comparisons) and seemed oblivious as a christian to having known there were silent years between testaments

    Absolutely nothing new and almost no evidence offered for any of your claims – exactly as I expected

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  16. Islam has the Qur’an, a prophet, witnesses, martyrs and fulfilled prophecies.

    Mormons have the Book of Mormon, Doctrines and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price, eyewitnesses, prophets, martyrs and fulfilled prophecies.

    Baha’i, Sikhs, Rastafarians, Buddhists, Hindus, Shintoists, Taoists… all have religious texts, prophets, fulfilled prophecies, martyrs, etc.

    Sathya Sai Baba wrote books and performed miracles that were witnessed by millions.

    Harry Potter has books, movies, posters, mugs, scarves, pendants, followers, magic spells and fulfilled prophecies.

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  17. Arch, are you an atheist? Then I guess you have learned about all those gods too.. in order to reject them? Again, there is no reason to research something that is without compelling evidence for it’s existence. The compelling evidence for God is abundant and easy to obtain. And one obtains it and applies objectivity, there is no need to look further. Once God has revealed Himself to you in your life, you don’t need to look any further.

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  18. Ron said:

    “Islam has the Qur’an, a prophet, witnesses, martyrs and fulfilled prophecies.”

    Islam has ONE prophet.. and he also happens to be the only author of the book.. the martyrs kill themselves.. and I know of no legitimate fulfilled prophecies. Possibly there are some, but also failed prophecies.. unlike the Bible.

    And I’m PRETTY sure this is the same all the way down the list. For sure it applies to Mormonism.

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  19. “Baha’i, Sikhs, Rastafarians, Buddhists, Hindus, Shintoists, Taoists… all have religious texts, prophets, fulfilled prophecies, martyrs, etc.”

    Yeah.. there are so many because of utter confusion and disagreement about fundamental doctrine. I think the one thing they all agree on is that the ultimate goal is not an eternal life of peace.. but an eternal death.. that’s actually their goal.. to die and to stay dead. Great message of love and gratitude.

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  20. “Sathya Sai Baba wrote books and performed miracles that were witnessed by millions.”

    Sources please.. would like to see if those sources are as credentialed as the Bible.. which I know they are not.

    “Harry Potter has books, movies, posters, mugs, scarves, pendants, followers, magic spells and fulfilled prophecies.”

    All you have to do is ask Rowling.. she’ll actually tell you HP isn’t real.. or read the first line on Wikipedia.. that’ll probably do it. Look for the word “fiction”.

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  21. The compelling evidence for God is abundant and easy to obtain.” – but WHICH god? There is no “compelling evidence” for ANY of them.

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  22. “Sorry Kathy, since you CLEARLY know nothing about the principles of debate,”

    Look who is talking. You have made some of the silliest post in this thread including the paisley link which was supposed to make some point about two people who had some scares who didn’t “feel” any presence but whose child pulled through fine and dandy like there is any passage in the world that says you have to “feel” something when you think you or your child about to die but won’t.

    I thought for sure – this has to be about Someone dying but then i read about “her perfect recovery”

    Sheesh I would be silent if I were God too knowing he’s be taking issue with what he felt when the results were so positive after hundreds of people prayed for his child to the desired result. How you thought THAT made some point is beyond me

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  23. Kathy,

    In Mark 11:24, Jesus makes the following promise:

    “Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.” (NIV)

    This promise is repeated in Matthew 18:19-20, Matthew 21:21-22 and John 14:12-14.

    And in Mark 16:17-18, Jesus states the following:

    “These miraculous signs will accompany those who believe: They will cast out demons in my name, and they will speak in new languages. They will be able to handle snakes with safety, and if they drink anything poisonous, it won’t hurt them. They will be able to place their hands on the sick, and they will be healed.”(NLT)

    That’s a testable claim. Please, gather a group of true believers (I’ll let you decide who qualifies as a true believer) and go clear out an entire hospital of patients. I’ll become a believer when I catch it on the six o’clock news.

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