Dear Kathy,
Since you graciously agreed (in our recent conversation) to let me present you with some examples of the Bible’s problems, I decided to do it in this way so it would have its own comment thread. As I’ve said, when I was a Christian, one strike against the Bible was not enough to shake my faith — maybe it only seemed problematic, maybe there was an explanation we hadn’t uncovered yet, maybe the historical accounts were wrong, etc. But as the problems began to mount up, I reached a point where I could no longer deny the fact that the Bible had actual errors.
A couple of suggestions before we begin. Try to be as open-minded about this as possible. As you go through these examples, ask yourself if God would allow such problems to exist in a message that he wanted all people to accept and believe? According to the Bible, whenever God sent someone a message, whether it was Pharaoh or Gideon or Nebuchadnezzar or Paul, they had no question whom it was from. They didn’t always follow it, as we see with people like Pharaoh and Solomon, but they didn’t question the source of the message or what it stated. So why would God operate differently today? Why would he want us to be so confused about his message that we’re able to question whether or not it’s really from him?
Another thing to keep in mind is that even if you come to the conclusion that the Bible has actual problems, that doesn’t mean you have to stop believing in God. There are a number of Christians who don’t believe in inerrancy. And even if you lose faith in the Christian god, that still doesn’t mean you have to stop believing in God. A number of people, including several of our founding fathers, were deists. I have a lot of sympathy for that view and plan to do a post on it soon.
Some of the items listed here will have links that provide additional information, especially when the issue is too detailed to list here. I hope that you’ll check out those links, since some of them are quite significant points. And regardless of how this article strikes you, I hope it will help serve as a great springboard to launch you into your own research.
Some of the Problems
Creation
The creation accounts in Genesis do not match what we’ve learned through science. This isn’t shocking news, but it bears looking into. Evolution and the Big Bang Theory had nothing to do with my deconversion, but I’ve learned more about both since leaving Christianity. It’s shocking how much misinformation I had been operating under. Not to say that all Christians are that way — that was simply my experience. But the evidence for both evolution and the Big Bang are far more substantial than I had ever realized. Two good resources for learning more about these issues are the following (though I’d also recommend checking out the recent Cosmos series, as well as some of the PBS NOVA specials):
Another problem with the creation accounts is that Genesis 1 says that plants and trees were made on the 3rd day, while man was made on the 6th. But Genesis 2:5-9 says that man was created before there were any plants or trees in the land. Also, the 1st chapter says that man was created after all the animals, but the 2nd chapter implies that it was the other way around. It seems strange that such discrepancies would exist only a chapter apart, but there are a number of textual clues that suggest the first 5 books of the Bible were assembled over a long period of time from various writings written by a number of different people. Many scholars believe that Genesis 1 and 2 represent two separate versions of the creation story that were both included because the compilers didn’t know which was more accurate. Whatever the reason, there’s no question that the differences exist and are hard to explain.
10 Plagues
During the 10 plagues, God afflicts all of Egypt’s livestock with a disease (Ex 9:1-7), and it specifies that it would affect the “horses, the donkeys, the camels, the herds, and the flocks.” We’re told that all of Egypt’s livestock died. But the later plague of boils was said to affect both man and beast (verse 10 of chapter 9). Maybe it meant non-livestock animals. But Ex 11:5 says that the death of the firstborn would also affect Egypt’s cattle, and in Exodus 14, Pharaoh pursues the Israelites with horses.
Hares Chew the Cud
Leviticus 11:6 tells us that hares chew the cud. They do not. Animals that chew the cud are called ruminants. When they eat plant matter, it goes to their first stomach to soften, and then it’s regurgitated to their mouth. They spend time re-chewing it, and then it is swallowed and fully digested. Ruminants (cows, sheep, goats, etc.) are recognizable because their chewing of the cud is very obvious. Hares (rabbits) don’t chew the cud; however, their mouths do move frequently, so it’s possible to see why some people may have assumed that they do chew the cud. Of course, God would know they didn’t, and this is why the passage is problematic. You can read more about this here.
Arphaxad
In the genealogy given in Genesis 11:10-12, we see that Noah fathered Shem and Shem fathered Arphaxad. At the age of 35, Arphaxad fathered Shelah. This information is confirmed in 1 Chron 1:18. But Luke 3:35-36 tells us that Arphaxad’s son was Cainan, and he was the father of Shelah.
Where does Luke get this information? It disagrees with the Old Testament, so who should we believe? Some have suggested that Genesis and 1 Chronicles simply left out Cainan for some reason. But why would they do that? To further complicate it, how could Cainan have fit in there? Genesis tells us that Arphaxad was 35 when he fathered Shelah. Does it really seem likely that Arphaxad became a grandfather by 35, especially when you consider the extreme old ages that people lived to at that time?
Another explanation is that some copyist messed up when copying Luke and Cainan is just a mistake. But this is not much better. First of all, the error would have needed to occur early for it to be in all our copies of Luke. Secondly, are we really comfortable saying that we have the inspired word of our creator, but it got messed up by some guy who wasn’t paying close attention? To me, that doesn’t lend a lot of credence to the idea of inspiration or inerrancy.
Instead, the most likely explanation is that Luke made a mistake. This, of course, would indicate that he was not inspired.
Problems in the Book of Daniel
In Daniel 5, the writer refers to Belshazzar as the son of Nebuchadnezzar 7 different times. Yet we know from multiple contemporary sources that Belshazzar’s father was Nabonidus, who was not related to Nebuchadnezzar. The same chapter says that Darius the Mede took over Babylon, but this person does not seem to have ever existed. Daniel says that he was the son of Ahaseurus, and in mentioning this, the author of Daniel indicates that he was thinking of a later ruler — the persian emperor Darius the Great, whose son was Ahaseurus. This post in particular goes into the problems surrounding the 5th chapter, but if you’d like to learn about the problems in the rest of the book, you can access each article in the series here.
Jairus’s Daughter
In Mark 5:23, Jairus finds Jesus and says that his daughter is at the point of death. While they’re on their way to the house, some of his servants find them on the way and say that she has died and there’s no point in troubling Jesus further.
However, in Matthew 9:18, Jairus already knows that his daughter has died, but tells Jesus that if he’ll lay his hands on her, she’ll live. This may seem like a minor difference, but honestly, there’s only one scenario that could be true. Either the girl was already dead, or she wasn’t. And if Jairus already knew she was dead, then there was no point in his servants coming to tell him that (so of course, they don’t appear in Matthew’s account).
The Centurion
This is similar to the previous issue. Matthew and Luke both record a centurion who asks Jesus to heal his sick servant. Matthew 8:5-13 says that the centurion himself comes before Jesus to ask for help. Luke 7:1-10 says that the Jewish elders went on his behalf, and then he sent servants to follow up. In Luke, Jesus never speaks to, or even sees, the centurion at all.
Hight Priest
In Mark 2:23-28, Jesus talks about the occasion from the Old Testament when David ate the showbread, which Jesus said was in the days of Abiathar the high priest. However, in 1 Samuel 21:1-6, it appears that Ahimelech was the high priest. Some have tried to answer this problem by saying that Abiathar was alive during that particular episode, so Jesus’ statement is still true. But that’s obviously not the intent of the passage. After all, we would correct anyone who said that the tragedy of 9/11 occurred during the days of President Barack Obama. He may have been alive at the time, but that event did not happen while he was President.
430 Years
Galatians 3:16-17 says this:
The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ. What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise.
Here, Paul says that the law came 430 years after the promises were made to Abraham. But in Exodus 12:40-41, we see:
Now the length of time the Israelite people lived in Egypt was 430 years. At the end of the 430 years, to the very day, all the LORD’s divisions left Egypt.
If the Israelites were in Egypt 430 years, then there could not have been 430 years between Abraham’s promises and the law. God made the promises to Abraham in Genesis 12:1-3, and as we read on through Genesis, we see that Abraham had no children at this time. Later, he had a son named Isaac. When Isaac was 60 years old, he had Jacob (Gen 25:24-26), and Jacob had 12 sons that produced the 12 tribes of Israel. Already, we can see that some time has passed since Abraham received the promise. Once Jacob’s sons were all grown with families of their own, they finally settled in Egypt. Jacob was 130 years old at this time (Gen 47:9), and this marks the beginning of that 430 year period that the Israelites spent in Egypt.
That means that the time between the promise to Abraham and the giving of the law was actually over 600 years. So why did Paul say 430 years? I think it’s obvious that this was a simple mistake. He remembered the 430 year figure because that’s how much time the Israelites spent in Egypt, and so he simply misspoke. It’s not a big deal… except that he’s supposed to be inspired by God.
Jesus’ Birth
There are a number of issues surrounding Jesus’ birth. First, Matthew’s and Luke’s accounts contradict one another on virtually all the details, which you can read about here. Secondly, Matthew seems to invent an episode where Herod kills all the children in Bethlehem who are 2 and under, causing Mary, Joseph, and Jesus to flee to Egypt (instead of just returning home to Nazareth, because only Luke says that they started in Nazareth). Matthew does this in order to “fulfill” some Old Testament passages that actually have nothing to do with Jesus or killing babies. You can read about Matthew’s misuse of the Old Testament here — it’s quite blatant.
The Virgin Birth is one of the most famous aspects of Jesus’ story, and it was supposedly done in fulfillment of a prophecy from Isaiah. But it turns out that Isaiah was prophesying no such thing — he was talking about an event that was happening in his own time, and Matthew (once again) just appropriated the “prophecy” for his own devices. You can read all the details here.
Another problem concerning Jesus’ birth narratives is that Matthew and Luke both offer genealogies for Jesus, but they are completely different from one another. Worse, they don’t match the genealogies listed in the Old Testament, either. And Matthew claims that there was a pattern in the number of generations between Abraham and David, between David and the Babylonian captivity, and between the Babylonian captivity and Christ. But to get this neat division, he is forced to leave out some names. In other words, that pattern didn’t happen. You can read more about that here.
The Triumphal Entry
While not as blatant as most of these other issues, when Matthew recounts Jesus’ triumphal entry into Jerusalem, he once again borrows from the Old Testament, but seems to make a mistake in his implementation. See here for more info.
Judas’ Death
Judas is well known for being the disciple that betrayed Jesus, but what’s not as well known is there are two different accounts of his death, and it’s very hard to reconcile them. According to Matthew, Judas threw his money down at the chief priests’ feet and went out and hanged himself. We’re not told where he did this. The priests then take the money, and instead of putting it back in the treasury (since it’s blood money), they buy a field to use for burying strangers. Because they bought the field with this money, it’s called the “Field of Blood.”
According to Acts, Judas bought a field with his money (we’re not told that he was remorseful), and he somehow fell down, bursting open in the middle and bleeding to death. The field was called “Field of Blood” after that because of the manner in which Judas died.
To make things more complicated, Matthew (of course) says that this happened in accordance with Jeremiah’s prophecy, but there’s nothing in Jeremiah that matches up. The closest reference comes from Zechariah, not Jeremiah.
These issues really complicate the notion of divine inspiration, and you can read more about them here.
The Crucifixion
There are several big problems with the way the gospels record the events of Jesus’ death, including the fact that different times of day are given for it, and even different days altogether. You can read more about this here.
The Resurrection
There are also a number of problems concerning the resurrection, some minor, some major. They’re too involved to get into here, but you can read all about them here and here.
The Problem of Hell
The notion of Hell is fraught with problems. It might even surprise you to learn that the Bible’s teachings on the afterlife change dramatically between the Old and New Testaments. I go into detail about Hell’s problems here, here, and here.
The Problem of Evil
Another huge problem for Christianity is the problem of evil, which I talk about here. This post also addresses the “problem of Heaven.”
The Bible’s Morality
While a number of people believe that the Christian god is the source of all morality, the Bible is actually filled with some monstrous acts that are either commanded by God, done with his consent, or carried out by him directly. I talk about some specific examples here, and I address some of the common responses to them here.
Conclusion
Kathy, there are a number of other examples that could be given, including the prophecy of Tyre that we’ve been discussing. But to me, these are some of the most significant and clear-cut problems. We could try to manufacture explanations for every one of these — some might be more believable than others. But why should we have to? If a perfect God inspired this book, why should it contain so many discrepancies? And honestly, some of these issues can’t be explained. They’re just wrong. The problems go well beyond internal contradictions and unfulfilled prophecies. There are problems of authorship, problems with the doctrines, and problems with the way the texts were written, transcribed, and compiled.
I’m sure you’ve spent your time as a Christian trying to reach those who are lost. You’ve always believed that Christianity is truth, and it’s the one thing that everyone needs. But could it be that Christianity is just as false as every other religion in the world? And if that’s the case, wouldn’t you want to leave it behind? When one is dedicated to finding truth, they have to be prepared to follow it wherever it leads. It’s not always easy or popular. It’s not even a guarantee that you’re right. All it means is that you follow the evidence where it leads to the best of your ability. If you find out that you’re wrong about something, you adjust course when the evidence dictates. If God exists, and if he’s righteous, what more could he ask for than that? I’ll close with my favorite quote:
Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.
— Marcus Aurelius
Finding Truth 
Nan said:
“Kathy, you are so hung up on pointing out the faults and failures of “liberals/atheists” that you completely misinterpret and/or overlook many people’s comments. Need an example? You just did it to Ruth. And you’ve done it to me.
I’m sure you are sincere in your attempts to discuss your beliefs, but I think we would all be far better served if you read people’s comments with a little more care before you respond.”
Nan, can you please give specifics? I have no idea what you are referring to.. If you want me to “better serve” readers, I need to know what I did wrong. 2nd request.
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Mike said:
“Aaaah so someone else sees his favorite tactic! 🙂
If the facts start mounting against his “evidence” he quickly slides to that all purpose excuse that if he didn’t do the research to honestly deal with the text its all God’s fault.”
I’m just having a hard time with this “argument” on the basis of assuming what GOD “would” say and how He would say it.. it’s an assumption that you know what God is thinking and His entire objective. This argument is valid I feel when talking about fellow humans.. but with God? It’s strange to me that this is put forth seriously.. and is the “fall back” as you point out when all other arguments fail.. to me, it shows a bias towards a desire to not want God to be real.. OR it just shows a fundamental ignorance (to ignore) of the difference between human beings and our Creator.
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“From Rogue Bible Society FB page.”
and yet it becomes all so certainly clear with no research when its a contradiction you guy are claiming eh nan?
Muy Hypocritical
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Mike, the posting (image) was merely to point out that even though you claim a knowledge of ancient bible language, there are no guarantees that translation is the most accurate.
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The reason the question is valid is because it has not yet been demonstrated that God has anything to do with the Bible whatsoever. You’re assuming that he does based on the claims of people you’ve never met who lived a very long time ago. All of human history has shown that mankind has a proclivity for inventing gods and religions, yet you think Christianity is the only one of those thousands that is actually true. But based on what evidence?
When I point to the problems in the Bible, some are clearer contradictions than others. For instance, when Paul says there were 430 years between the promises and the law, that’s a hard one to get around. The same with the different times of day and different days of the week for Jesus’ crucifixion. So in those cases, Christians will sometimes say they just don’t know the answer, or they’ll resort to God’s ways being above our ways. All this does is push Christianity to an unfalsifiable status, and there’s no good reason to believe something that’s unfalsifiable.
When I say that I think God would do this or that, I’m just using common sense. I’m not questioning God — I’m questioning the people who wrote the Bible. When they say that God is love, but then they say God commanded the Israelites to slaughter every person in the land of Canaan, including women and children, that appears contradictory. Even if it was to punish them for their supposed evil, isn’t it interesting that God only told them to clear out Canaan — the very land he had already promised them? It seems far more likely that we’re dealing with a case of Manifest Destiny, just like the US when it drove out the Native Americans.
The writers of the Bible also claim that God wants everyone to believe in him and come to repentance. Knowing that much of the world will be initially skeptical of this due to their own religions / cultures, it makes sense that a rational being would make the barrier to belief as low as possible. So inspiring writers to tell versions of stories that are completely different in every detail (like Judas or Jesus birth) seems to run counter to that. So does allowing this all-important writing to be corrupted by unknown people later in the process (like adding entire passages, or allowing early Christians to think books like The Shepherd of Hermas or The Apocalypse of Peter were legitimate texts).
On the other hand, it’s also important to remember that people who are already predisposed to believing it (like those raised in it) will likely be willing to look past those kinds of clues and make all kinds of excuses for why they exist.
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Also Kathy, you’ve engaged in “God would…” yourself when you’ve criticized Islam for not aligning with God’s qualities.
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Kathy, quite frankly, I don’t have the time or interest to go back over all the postings to find the examples you’ve requested. I know you (and most probably Mike) will consider that a cop-out, but this thread is just way too long. About all I can say is I’ve noticed that some of your responses have indicated you either didn’t understood what the person was saying, you were too intent upon giving your POV, or you’re being pulled in too many directions by too many postings.
Just thought of one quick example — you said you couldn’t understand why I gave the scriptures about love. I had indicated that in my Christian experiences, there was far too little emphasis put upon God’s love and you wrote: It sounds like the catalyst is that she didn’t like the rules.. “rebellion” is always at the root of rejecting God.
You were making an assumption that was simply not true. Rebellion had nothing to do with it. I just wanted to feel more of the love the scriptures talk about, but the only thing that was emphasized was “don’t do this” and “don’t do that.”
Here again is what I wrote after listing the scriptures: Scripture after scripture talks about God’s love. THIS is what propels and motivates people to serve God. Please re-read the second part. This was the point I was making. Got it? Good.
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Here’s what happens when you runs songs through Google Translate a few times:
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I gave up a while ago.
How do you have a productive conversation with someone who will claim they dont know what youre talking about when you point out that matthew said there was a talking angel on a stone, and another gospel says their were two talking angels in the tomb, or how John clearly says that jesus ate his supper and was crucified before passover while mark says that jesus ate the passover was crucified on that day (just two of several examples)?
Now maybe there’s a good explanation for such discrepancies, but when someone just ignores that point and then goes on to say “there is clearly no contradiction…” then they’re either too dishonest to talk to, or far too stupid to understand what you’re saying anyways.
I dont have the time or the patience.
and lastly, if there were zero problems within the bible, that wouldn’t prove god wrote it – but if there’s one error, then it certainly wasn’t the product of anything perfect.
It’s all claims of man anyways. man claimed it, so eat it up if you like.
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Nate, before I address your points in your latest comment.. I want to repost these questions that you haven’t addressed yet.. especially since you are repeating the arguments that some of these questions are in regards to.. I had this list constructed before you made this latest comment..
Questions for Nate..
All these differences in the Gospels show Nate, is that different people saw it differently, conveyed it differently to the author(s) or heard it differently. This is normal.. witnesses rarely have accounts that match exactly. It shows that humans gave these accounts. They were witnesses to the event(s).. from DIFFERENT perspectives. You have to ask.. is this where God is supposed to “inspire” them? If they are WITNESS accounts, I don’t think so.
Nate, re: the Gospel contradictions..
Why do you think there are four separate accounts of the Gospel in the Bible?
Do you, or did you ever.. see inspiration in the ACTUAL Gospel story itself? After all, that’s what it’s all about. Not the trivial details of times and actual words said.. it’s about what God did for us. That the disciples, regardless of who said what and went where and when, sacrificed their lives to testify to the truth of the Gospel SHOULD be what matters the most.. I’ve said it before but, to me, the seeming contradictions are there because God allowed them to be there due to real life “contradictions” in multiple testimonies.. and those who SEEK the possible explanations will find them.. those who DON’T want there to be explanations won’t find them. Again, God is giving you exactly what you want.
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You said:
“The reason the question is valid is because it has not yet been demonstrated that God has anything to do with the Bible whatsoever. ” Later in this paragraph, you ask.. “But based on what evidence?”
This is another mind boggling claim.. my question to you is, what kind of evidence do you require in order to show Biblical inspiration?
And HOW do you define “evidence”??
Here is the dictionary definition:
ev·i·dence (v-dns)
n.
1. A thing or things helpful in forming a conclusion or judgment: The broken window was evidence that a burglary had taken place. Scientists weigh the evidence for and against a hypothesis.
2. Something indicative; an outward sign: evidence of grief on a mourner’s face.
3. Law The documentary or oral statements and the material objects admissible as testimony in a court of law.
The Bible is FULL of evidence for it’s truth! And it’s the most compelling evidence we have for who our Creator is.. all the thousands of others have nothing by comparison. (this is another point I’ve made that you’ve ignored).
“You’re assuming that he does based on the claims of people you’ve never met who lived a very long time ago.”
Do you make this claim for other historical events/ people? It’s no different. ALL of our historical documentation is from people who lived long ago and who we didn’t know.
“All of human history has shown that mankind has a proclivity for inventing gods and religions, yet you think Christianity is the only one of those thousands that is actually true. But based on what evidence?”
Based on ALL the evidence we have.. that you prefer to ignore or dismiss as non evidence.
That you equate the God of the Bible with thousands of others truly reveals your lack of objectivity. Again, by comparison of evidence, it’s incredibly absurd to claim they are in the same category.
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“The reason the question is valid is because it has not yet been demonstrated that God has anything to do with the Bible whatsoever. ”
The reason your “logic” is totally bogus and invalid is that you are imposing theological questions (why would god) in order to slip your way around the facts you leave out. Its entirely self serving. IF you feel the Bible is just another piece of ancient literature then you approach it ENTIRELY on that basis. purely secular, not with selectively using your own theological constraints imposed as an escape hatch.
” For instance, when Paul says there were 430 years between the law and the prophets, that’s a hard one to get around. The same with the different times of day and different days of the week for Jesus’ crucifixion. ”
We’ve seen your claims like that before and they haven’t stood up well to analysis. the fact that we haven’t got around to some yet in no way means they are hard ones to get around
“Even if it was to punish them for their supposed evil, isn’t it interesting that God only told them to clear out Canaan — the very land he had already promised them?”
Why would an all knowing God who lives outside of time have promised them the land of righteous people? You make no sense.
“The writers of the Bible also claim that God wants everyone to believe in him and come to repentance. Knowing that much of the world will be initially skeptical of this due to their own religions / cultures,”
You’ve joined your readers playing the ostrich Nate. logically how would you determine the effectiveness of a text to communicate? By its results obviously and the Bible and the Gospel have done a STELLAR job across the entire world bringing people to itself in the billions. What you are talking about is a VERY small segment of skeptics who will like you be belligerent about ab being used as son or grandfather in order to hold their r cherished beliefs. Theologically We could do just like you and ask – Why would God adjust something that has worked for Billions over the centuries in order to accommodate a few arrogant people who he himself has stated he thinks are fools for thinking he does not exist? Its all just an excuse for lack of good researching. Pretty transparent.
” So inspiring writers to tell versions of stories that are completely different in every detail (like Judas or Jesus birth)”
At this point you are just bare face lying with “Completely different in every detail”. Straight up no apologies. Total lie. Sheeesh You are absurd and you’ve unmasked yourself. You are now the king of fudging. As Kathy already has shown your Judas thing is weak and to claim that it is different in every detail is waaaaaaaaaay out there. That goes for Jesus birth as well which i completely dismantled so much so the only thing you could do was beg that the risk of visiting Jerusalem would be too high as compared with living there and ignorethe fact that every Jew had to go to Jerusalem at some point on a visit to the temple.
This is one of your biggest problems Nate. You see every one else’s bias but despite clear evidence in your own life to the contrary when you look in the mirror you see the son of the living God (so to speak). Clean and without your own HUGE bias and tendency to do a mean hot fudge sunday.
“On the other hand, it’s also important to remember that people who are already predisposed to believing it (like those raised in it) will likely be willing to look past those kinds of clues and make all kinds of excuses for why they exist.”
And its important to realize that someone who has disrupted their entire family and spent hours writing against Christianity has a similar willingness to look at where they made mistakes in handling the text and brush it off because of their own pride and arrogance.
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“When I point to the problems in the Bible, some are clearer contradictions than others. For instance, when Paul says there were 430 years between the promises and the law, that’s a hard one to get around. The same with the different times of day and different days of the week for Jesus’ crucifixion. So in those cases, Christians will sometimes say they just don’t know the answer, or they’ll resort to God’s ways being above our ways. ”
Christians don’t say “we just don’t know”.. I’ve given one link as a possible explanation for the 430 year “contradiction”.. and it’s a valid possibility.
But, even if Paul got his math wrong.. SO WHAT?? It’s God’s sovereign RIGHT to allow that “error” in the Bible.. as was pointed out.. the Holy Spirit approved it.
And it’s only an error IF Paul was calculating the way YOU feel he should have. My points/ arguments show that you DON’T HAVE to accept these examples as “major” mistakes.. you CAN accept these possible reasons.. but you CHOOSE not to. It reveals what is in your heart Nate. And that’s what it is all about with God.
Again, there is NO “all” in the Tyre prophecy .. so you CAN accept that the prophecy was fulfilled.. but you CHOOSE not to. If there WAS the word “all” in regards to the portion that would be underwater, never rebuilt.. THEN I couldn’t argue your claim.. BUT, that is not the case.
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“But, even if Paul got his math wrong.. SO WHAT?? It’s God’s sovereign RIGHT to allow that “error” in the Bible.. as was pointed out.. the Holy Spirit approved it.” – kathy
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“Why would an all knowing God who lives outside of time have promised them the land of righteous people? You make no sense.” – mike
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When police interrogate two suspects who are thought to be cohorts in a crime, which is more suspect: areas of agreement or disagreement in their alibis? It’s true that people can tell the same story with variation. It’s even been said that eye-witness testimony is some of the worst evidence because people tend to mis-remember things.
However, regular witnesses are not inspired by God, but it’s claimed that the Bible’s authors were. Also, variation in a few details is one thing — variation on entire aspects of a story is something else entirely.
Because the various authors were relating the versions they had heard or had access to. None of them thought their version would be situated side-by-side other versions.
Yes, I believed it earnestly. The earliest posts on this blog are a testament to that. But thinking the doctrines fit together nicely didn’t make them true, any more than enjoying the mythos of Star Wars makes it true. There were always little things that puzzled me, but I chalked that up to a lack of understanding on my part. Eventually, I saw that there were larger problems.
Like what? I think you’ll find that closer inspection shows these pieces of evidence aren’t as sound as you think…
And do we believe them when they tell us that Vespasian performed miracles?
Actually, I think it shows the opposite. Instead of giving it preferential treatment based on the culture and religion I grew up with, I try to approach it as an outsider to see if it’s compelling.
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“When I say that I think God would do this or that, I’m just using common sense. I’m not questioning God — I’m questioning the people who wrote the Bible. ”
Common sense would be to not make assumptions about what GOD “would” do.. as if you are on the same level as Him.
And yes, you most definitely ARE questioning God… that’s what this is all about isn’t it? You now claim that He doesn’t exist.
“When they say that God is love, but then they say God commanded the Israelites to slaughter every person in the land of Canaan, including women and children, that appears contradictory.”
On the SURFACE, yes it does.. I agree.. but not when you look at the whole picture of what God’s plan was and also the people of that time.. you say “supposed evil”.. are you denying that there was child sacrifice etc? Are there no outside sources that support these claims? It’s very reasonable that these people were truly evil.
I laid out a very reasonable “big picture” of God’s reasons and motives for these things that you are having problems with.. which again, you never addressed.
” Even if it was to punish them for their supposed evil, isn’t it interesting that God only told them to clear out Canaan — the very land he had already promised them? It seems far more likely that we’re dealing with a case of Manifest Destiny, just like the US when it drove out the Native Americans.”
It all fits within the Biblical narrative.. obey God.. TRUST God.. and you will be rewarded.. how should God have demonstrated these lessons if not the way He did? Please give some examples of how He should have done it “better”…
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LOl William…If you are going to quote mine you should at east wait. After all it was too easy to see Kathy state afterwards
“And it’s only an error IF Paul was calculating the way YOU feel he should have. ”
Which pretty much nails it. and you notice she put the word “error” in quotation marks as well. Try harder AND quote mine with more patience. 🙂
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No, Kathy. All this shows is that it’s your “sovereign right” to accept the Bible as God’s word no matter what it says, because you CHOOSE to accept it no matter what. There is no amount of evidence that could ever convince you because you’re not looking at evidence at all. It’s fine if you want to live that way — I’m just puzzled as to why you would spend your time trying to convince a bunch of atheists they’re wrong when you’re not concerned with evidence at all.
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ooops.. I almost ignored this.. what I’ve been very good of accusing you of doing..
“Also Kathy, you’ve engaged in “God would…” yourself when you’ve criticized Islam for not aligning with God’s qualities.”
You are right.. I’ve done it also, but a critical difference is that my assumptions are based ON scripture.. yours are based on what you are deciding in your own mind.
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“Because the various authors were relating the versions they had heard or had access to. None of them thought their version would be situated side-by-side other versions.”
🙂 🙂 add ancient mind reading to Nate’s self proclaimed talents. Impressive – he can read them even after they are gone. Cold cases beware.
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Thank you, Mike — perhaps I can learn from your shining example.
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“Kathy, quite frankly, I don’t have the time or interest to go back over all the postings to find the examples you’ve requested. I know you (and most probably Mike) will consider that a cop-out, but this thread is just way too long.”
Actually Nan thats the first and only thing I agree with you on . I wouldn’t want to launch off into anything new in this thread either so that part I do NOT see as a cop out.
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How about without so much bloodshed? How about speak to them directly as he (supposedly) did to Abraham, Moses, etc? If all else fails, why not obliterate them all in an instant instead of making them live through the horror of watching their families be hacked to death before meeting their own grisly demise? In other words, why not behave in a way that’s different from all the “false” gods of that time, instead of playing right into the stereotypes?
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“Thank you, Mike — perhaps I can learn from your shining example.”
Sure….As they say the journey of a thousand miles begin with the first step…You can start with withdrawing your straight up lie of “completely different in every detail (like Judas or Jesus birth)”.
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“LOl William…If you are going to quote mine you should at east wait. After all it was too easy to see Kathy state afterwards
“And it’s only an error IF Paul was calculating the way YOU feel he should have. ”
Which pretty much nails it. and you notice she put the word “error” in quotation marks as well. Try harder AND quote mine with more patience. :)” – Mike
well, i thought the entire thing was more absurd. nate appears to be using it the way Paul said to, but as with most issues with the bible, you’d have us believe nothing is clear enough to nail down, so therefore, GOD.
and kathy didnt leave “wrong” in quotations… Plus she was making the argument that if paul’s math was wrong, what’s the big deal – that’s god’s prerogative to make mistakes as he sees fit, because he’s perfect and likely found a perfect reason to leave an “error” or let paul do math “wrong.”
I’ll try not to quote mine as long as you try to to read the post youre replying to.
I’ll just stay away. I cant speak idiot as fluently as I thought i could.
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