Agnosticism, Atheism, Bible Study, Christianity, Faith, God, Morality, Religion, Truth

Letter to Kathy (the Bible Has Problems)

Dear Kathy,

Since you graciously agreed (in our recent conversation) to let me present you with some examples of the Bible’s problems, I decided to do it in this way so it would have its own comment thread. As I’ve said, when I was a Christian, one strike against the Bible was not enough to shake my faith — maybe it only seemed problematic, maybe there was an explanation we hadn’t uncovered yet, maybe the historical accounts were wrong, etc. But as the problems began to mount up, I reached a point where I could no longer deny the fact that the Bible had actual errors.

A couple of suggestions before we begin. Try to be as open-minded about this as possible. As you go through these examples, ask yourself if God would allow such problems to exist in a message that he wanted all people to accept and believe? According to the Bible, whenever God sent someone a message, whether it was Pharaoh or Gideon or Nebuchadnezzar or Paul, they had no question whom it was from. They didn’t always follow it, as we see with people like Pharaoh and Solomon, but they didn’t question the source of the message or what it stated. So why would God operate differently today? Why would he want us to be so confused about his message that we’re able to question whether or not it’s really from him?

Another thing to keep in mind is that even if you come to the conclusion that the Bible has actual problems, that doesn’t mean you have to stop believing in God. There are a number of Christians who don’t believe in inerrancy. And even if you lose faith in the Christian god, that still doesn’t mean you have to stop believing in God. A number of people, including several of our founding fathers, were deists. I have a lot of sympathy for that view and plan to do a post on it soon.

Some of the items listed here will have links that provide additional information, especially when the issue is too detailed to list here. I hope that you’ll check out those links, since some of them are quite significant points. And regardless of how this article strikes you, I hope it will help serve as a great springboard to launch you into your own research.

Some of the Problems

Creation
The creation accounts in Genesis do not match what we’ve learned through science. This isn’t shocking news, but it bears looking into. Evolution and the Big Bang Theory had nothing to do with my deconversion, but I’ve learned more about both since leaving Christianity. It’s shocking how much misinformation I had been operating under. Not to say that all Christians are that way — that was simply my experience. But the evidence for both evolution and the Big Bang are far more substantial than I had ever realized. Two good resources for learning more about these issues are the following (though I’d also recommend checking out the recent Cosmos series, as well as some of the PBS NOVA specials):

Marco’s Daddy and the Beginning of Life on Earth


http://talkorigins.org/

Another problem with the creation accounts is that Genesis 1 says that plants and trees were made on the 3rd day, while man was made on the 6th. But Genesis 2:5-9 says that man was created before there were any plants or trees in the land. Also, the 1st chapter says that man was created after all the animals, but the 2nd chapter implies that it was the other way around. It seems strange that such discrepancies would exist only a chapter apart, but there are a number of textual clues that suggest the first 5 books of the Bible were assembled over a long period of time from various writings written by a number of different people. Many scholars believe that Genesis 1 and 2 represent two separate versions of the creation story that were both included because the compilers didn’t know which was more accurate. Whatever the reason, there’s no question that the differences exist and are hard to explain.

10 Plagues
During the 10 plagues, God afflicts all of Egypt’s livestock with a disease (Ex 9:1-7), and it specifies that it would affect the “horses, the donkeys, the camels, the herds, and the flocks.” We’re told that all of Egypt’s livestock died. But the later plague of boils was said to affect both man and beast (verse 10 of chapter 9). Maybe it meant non-livestock animals. But Ex 11:5 says that the death of the firstborn would also affect Egypt’s cattle, and in Exodus 14, Pharaoh pursues the Israelites with horses.

Hares Chew the Cud
Leviticus 11:6 tells us that hares chew the cud. They do not. Animals that chew the cud are called ruminants. When they eat plant matter, it goes to their first stomach to soften, and then it’s regurgitated to their mouth. They spend time re-chewing it, and then it is swallowed and fully digested. Ruminants (cows, sheep, goats, etc.) are recognizable because their chewing of the cud is very obvious. Hares (rabbits) don’t chew the cud; however, their mouths do move frequently, so it’s possible to see why some people may have assumed that they do chew the cud. Of course, God would know they didn’t, and this is why the passage is problematic. You can read more about this here.

Arphaxad
In the genealogy given in Genesis 11:10-12, we see that Noah fathered Shem and Shem fathered Arphaxad. At the age of 35, Arphaxad fathered Shelah. This information is confirmed in 1 Chron 1:18. But Luke 3:35-36 tells us that Arphaxad’s son was Cainan, and he was the father of Shelah.

Where does Luke get this information? It disagrees with the Old Testament, so who should we believe? Some have suggested that Genesis and 1 Chronicles simply left out Cainan for some reason. But why would they do that? To further complicate it, how could Cainan have fit in there? Genesis tells us that Arphaxad was 35 when he fathered Shelah. Does it really seem likely that Arphaxad became a grandfather by 35, especially when you consider the extreme old ages that people lived to at that time?

Another explanation is that some copyist messed up when copying Luke and Cainan is just a mistake. But this is not much better. First of all, the error would have needed to occur early for it to be in all our copies of Luke. Secondly, are we really comfortable saying that we have the inspired word of our creator, but it got messed up by some guy who wasn’t paying close attention? To me, that doesn’t lend a lot of credence to the idea of inspiration or inerrancy.

Instead, the most likely explanation is that Luke made a mistake. This, of course, would indicate that he was not inspired.

Problems in the Book of Daniel
In Daniel 5, the writer refers to Belshazzar as the son of Nebuchadnezzar 7 different times. Yet we know from multiple contemporary sources that Belshazzar’s father was Nabonidus, who was not related to Nebuchadnezzar. The same chapter says that Darius the Mede took over Babylon, but this person does not seem to have ever existed. Daniel says that he was the son of Ahaseurus, and in mentioning this, the author of Daniel indicates that he was thinking of a later ruler — the persian emperor Darius the Great, whose son was Ahaseurus. This post in particular goes into the problems surrounding the 5th chapter, but if you’d like to learn about the problems in the rest of the book, you can access each article in the series here.

Jairus’s Daughter
In Mark 5:23, Jairus finds Jesus and says that his daughter is at the point of death. While they’re on their way to the house, some of his servants find them on the way and say that she has died and there’s no point in troubling Jesus further.

However, in Matthew 9:18, Jairus already knows that his daughter has died, but tells Jesus that if he’ll lay his hands on her, she’ll live. This may seem like a minor difference, but honestly, there’s only one scenario that could be true. Either the girl was already dead, or she wasn’t. And if Jairus already knew she was dead, then there was no point in his servants coming to tell him that (so of course, they don’t appear in Matthew’s account).

The Centurion
This is similar to the previous issue. Matthew and Luke both record a centurion who asks Jesus to heal his sick servant. Matthew 8:5-13 says that the centurion himself comes before Jesus to ask for help. Luke 7:1-10 says that the Jewish elders went on his behalf, and then he sent servants to follow up. In Luke, Jesus never speaks to, or even sees, the centurion at all.

Hight Priest
In Mark 2:23-28, Jesus talks about the occasion from the Old Testament when David ate the showbread, which Jesus said was in the days of Abiathar the high priest. However, in 1 Samuel 21:1-6, it appears that Ahimelech was the high priest. Some have tried to answer this problem by saying that Abiathar was alive during that particular episode, so Jesus’ statement is still true. But that’s obviously not the intent of the passage. After all, we would correct anyone who said that the tragedy of 9/11 occurred during the days of President Barack Obama. He may have been alive at the time, but that event did not happen while he was President.

430 Years
Galatians 3:16-17 says this:

The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ. What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise.

Here, Paul says that the law came 430 years after the promises were made to Abraham. But in Exodus 12:40-41, we see:

Now the length of time the Israelite people lived in Egypt was 430 years. At the end of the 430 years, to the very day, all the LORD’s divisions left Egypt.

If the Israelites were in Egypt 430 years, then there could not have been 430 years between Abraham’s promises and the law. God made the promises to Abraham in Genesis 12:1-3, and as we read on through Genesis, we see that Abraham had no children at this time. Later, he had a son named Isaac. When Isaac was 60 years old, he had Jacob (Gen 25:24-26), and Jacob had 12 sons that produced the 12 tribes of Israel. Already, we can see that some time has passed since Abraham received the promise. Once Jacob’s sons were all grown with families of their own, they finally settled in Egypt. Jacob was 130 years old at this time (Gen 47:9), and this marks the beginning of that 430 year period that the Israelites spent in Egypt.

That means that the time between the promise to Abraham and the giving of the law was actually over 600 years. So why did Paul say 430 years? I think it’s obvious that this was a simple mistake. He remembered the 430 year figure because that’s how much time the Israelites spent in Egypt, and so he simply misspoke. It’s not a big deal… except that he’s supposed to be inspired by God.

Jesus’ Birth
There are a number of issues surrounding Jesus’ birth. First, Matthew’s and Luke’s accounts contradict one another on virtually all the details, which you can read about here. Secondly, Matthew seems to invent an episode where Herod kills all the children in Bethlehem who are 2 and under, causing Mary, Joseph, and Jesus to flee to Egypt (instead of just returning home to Nazareth, because only Luke says that they started in Nazareth). Matthew does this in order to “fulfill” some Old Testament passages that actually have nothing to do with Jesus or killing babies. You can read about Matthew’s misuse of the Old Testament here — it’s quite blatant.

The Virgin Birth is one of the most famous aspects of Jesus’ story, and it was supposedly done in fulfillment of a prophecy from Isaiah. But it turns out that Isaiah was prophesying no such thing — he was talking about an event that was happening in his own time, and Matthew (once again) just appropriated the “prophecy” for his own devices. You can read all the details here.

Another problem concerning Jesus’ birth narratives is that Matthew and Luke both offer genealogies for Jesus, but they are completely different from one another. Worse, they don’t match the genealogies listed in the Old Testament, either. And Matthew claims that there was a pattern in the number of generations between Abraham and David, between David and the Babylonian captivity, and between the Babylonian captivity and Christ. But to get this neat division, he is forced to leave out some names. In other words, that pattern didn’t happen. You can read more about that here.

The Triumphal Entry
While not as blatant as most of these other issues, when Matthew recounts Jesus’ triumphal entry into Jerusalem, he once again borrows from the Old Testament, but seems to make a mistake in his implementation. See here for more info.

Judas’ Death
Judas is well known for being the disciple that betrayed Jesus, but what’s not as well known is there are two different accounts of his death, and it’s very hard to reconcile them. According to Matthew, Judas threw his money down at the chief priests’ feet and went out and hanged himself. We’re not told where he did this. The priests then take the money, and instead of putting it back in the treasury (since it’s blood money), they buy a field to use for burying strangers. Because they bought the field with this money, it’s called the “Field of Blood.”

According to Acts, Judas bought a field with his money (we’re not told that he was remorseful), and he somehow fell down, bursting open in the middle and bleeding to death. The field was called “Field of Blood” after that because of the manner in which Judas died.

To make things more complicated, Matthew (of course) says that this happened in accordance with Jeremiah’s prophecy, but there’s nothing in Jeremiah that matches up. The closest reference comes from Zechariah, not Jeremiah.

These issues really complicate the notion of divine inspiration, and you can read more about them here.

The Crucifixion
There are several big problems with the way the gospels record the events of Jesus’ death, including the fact that different times of day are given for it, and even different days altogether. You can read more about this here.

The Resurrection
There are also a number of problems concerning the resurrection, some minor, some major. They’re too involved to get into here, but you can read all about them here and here.

The Problem of Hell
The notion of Hell is fraught with problems. It might even surprise you to learn that the Bible’s teachings on the afterlife change dramatically between the Old and New Testaments. I go into detail about Hell’s problems here, here, and here.

The Problem of Evil
Another huge problem for Christianity is the problem of evil, which I talk about here. This post also addresses the “problem of Heaven.”

The Bible’s Morality
While a number of people believe that the Christian god is the source of all morality, the Bible is actually filled with some monstrous acts that are either commanded by God, done with his consent, or carried out by him directly. I talk about some specific examples here, and I address some of the common responses to them here.

Conclusion

Kathy, there are a number of other examples that could be given, including the prophecy of Tyre that we’ve been discussing. But to me, these are some of the most significant and clear-cut problems. We could try to manufacture explanations for every one of these — some might be more believable than others. But why should we have to? If a perfect God inspired this book, why should it contain so many discrepancies? And honestly, some of these issues can’t be explained. They’re just wrong. The problems go well beyond internal contradictions and unfulfilled prophecies. There are problems of authorship, problems with the doctrines, and problems with the way the texts were written, transcribed, and compiled.

I’m sure you’ve spent your time as a Christian trying to reach those who are lost. You’ve always believed that Christianity is truth, and it’s the one thing that everyone needs. But could it be that Christianity is just as false as every other religion in the world? And if that’s the case, wouldn’t you want to leave it behind? When one is dedicated to finding truth, they have to be prepared to follow it wherever it leads. It’s not always easy or popular. It’s not even a guarantee that you’re right. All it means is that you follow the evidence where it leads to the best of your ability. If you find out that you’re wrong about something, you adjust course when the evidence dictates. If God exists, and if he’s righteous, what more could he ask for than that? I’ll close with my favorite quote:

Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.
— Marcus Aurelius

1,782 thoughts on “Letter to Kathy (the Bible Has Problems)”

  1. Kathy, Islam claims at least 14 fulfilled prophesies in their Quran. Wouldn’t this support the “Truth” of the Quran as well ? Fulfilled prophesies have also been attributed to Joseph Smith in the Book of Mormon. Fulfilled prophesies can also be found in the writings of Nostradamus. Wouldn’t these other works have to be considered as truthful as your Bible ?

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  2. @Kathy, “The Bible gives us a wealth of historical information, all of which atheists would LOVE to make disappear. ”

    This couldn’t be further from the truth , Kathy ! Anyone seeking truth would welcome any VERIFIABLE history the bible, quran, book of mormon , etc , can shed. Your statement is simply false.

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  3. “Oh look.. you’re ADDING words again.. Nate, I’m not asking for “good” credentials.. just simply.. credentials”

    Kathy, this is a pointless argument and i’m not even sure why you’re hanging on to it so much.. the only credentials that I see any religion as having are those that point to them as being products of man. I see none that show any are from anything divine.

    having said, there is good stuff in most them, but some good moral points does not equate to credentials of the divine.

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  4. @ Kathy,

    That the prophet Muhammad was a real person is not in question. Do you believe the Angel Gabriel came to him and spoke to him? Do you believe that he ascended into heaven and met with prophets all the way from Adam to Abraham? The Qur’an has historical places and so forth. That it contains some kernel of truth does not make it divine nor “truth” in the sense of the word you want to attribute to Christianity.

    Every other religion from Islam to Zoroastrianism has the “credentials” you are placing on Christianity. Simply being able to relate that it’s prophets were real people and that it’s texts contain historical places, times, and events does not make it “credentialed” any more than any other religion, nor does it make it “truth”.

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  5. “Really?? You realize that like a Nit you haven’t even specified what verse you are talking about but on a guess here.” – mike

    sorry mike, but as the self proclaimed master debater and bible scholar, I thought you were aware of the passages. I don’t mind listing them.

    John: 13:1; 18:28, 39; 19:14, 31, 42 (before passover)

    Mark: 14:12 (passover)

    Matthew: 26:17 (passover)

    Luke: 22:7 (passover)

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  6. all I’m saying, Ruth, is even though they wouldn’t do it for us, we should try to put ourselves in their place. Except Mike – nobody should sink that low.

    I’ve been attempting to do that. I didn’t bring up my former Christianity to prove anything to anybody, except that I was familiar with the tenets of the faith and that I had actually been in their place at one time. I’m not surprised in the least that they dismiss my claim so easily. I would have done the same thing. That is what their scriptures teach them.

    I have made many of the same arguments that Kathy has made here. But I believed those things because the only study I had ever done was from the “right” kind of material – material that would confirm my bias – material that would explain the six literal days of creation (and the flood) and make it sound scientific, material that would confirm the historicity of the OT, material that would confirm the events surrounding the birth, death, and resurrection of Jesus. I also studied material about the claims of atheists, but again, from only the angle of seeing if there was a refutation – any refutation – of their claims. Not from the angle of the likelihood or probability of the refutation – just that there was one, no matter how likely because I wanted to believe.

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  7. “Kathy, Islam claims at least 14 fulfilled prophesies in their Q”

    since he won’t put any up I suppose He’s talking about ones like these Kathy

    https://www.alislam.org/library/articles/prophecies.html

    lol. to even compare the two just shows how biased these people are OR that they have never studied bible prophecy

    “This couldn’t be further from the truth , Kathy ! Anyone seeking truth would welcome any VERIFIABLE history the bible, quran, book of mormon , etc , can shed. Your statement is simply false.”

    This is probably the biggest bared face lie you people tell yourselves – that unlike all the rest of the human race you have no biases that make you hold your positions or would deceive you from seeing truth. Atheist have some of the same reasons for holding on to their position as they accuse others of

    Pride – emotional pay off of thinking they are smarter than the allegedly duped
    Lust – because a life without God means you have greater freedom to do whatever you want
    Hate – because atheists tend to have quite a thing in for Christians in particular
    Faith – because as seen here recently with references to Krauss and belief that goes beyond the facts within this universe you do have an unwarranted faith in materialism

    and more

    Wish I had the time to respond to the nonsense I know this reply will receive but alas I choose to finish a project that will probably have me set for life rather than argue the obvious fact of bias with people who have no intention whatsoever of seeking a truth they SWEAR they have already found.

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  8. ” I would have done the same thing. That is what their scriptures teach them. ”

    Real quick Ruth – you were dismissed as being a christian particularly when you demonstrated a basic lack of understanding regarding sin and the fall that every Christian knows. You did come back and try to claim that you understood it but the questions themselves had already given you away as not understanding what you would have had you ever been a Christian

    You can try to spin that as us just going off what our bible teaches us but in your case in particular you were dismissed on the merits.

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  9. Nate, I’m not asking for ‘good’ credentials.. just simply.. credentials.” – not Nate here, as you may have guessed. Let’s see – we have no idea who wrote the first five books of the OT, or the first four books of the NT, or the Acts, and those books are the foundations of their respective volumes – how exactly can you call those credentials?

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  10. @Mike,

    In case you haven’t noticed, I’m not really concerned with what you think of my former Christianity. I’ve explained in pretty stark detail that went deeper and further than anything you thought you need to explain to me. I didn’t need your Christian explanation. It was an attempt to get you to put yourself in another’s place for just a minute. Something you’ve clearly demonstrated with your amazing level of objectivity you are completely incapable of.

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  11. @Ruth – have you ever gotten the feeling after conversations online with many different people that the definition of being a Christian varies very widely? As a result, even if I started to be convinced again that there is some validity to the belief I get the feeling that there is really no way I could ever know if I really was a Christian or not.

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  12. @Nate – haven’t been following all the comments on this thread so sorry if this has been covered – commenting on this post is taking a long time due to the time it takes to load all the info. If people want to continue the conversation would it make sense to either start a part 2 post or maybe change your settings so that it breaks up the comments into separate pages?

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  13. Wow, Howie, I think you just got Bingo! Yes. Most definitely.

    First one is told all they have to do is believe in their heart and confess with their tongue that Jesus is the Son of God, that he was crucified for our sins, that he was buried, and that he was raised after three days. Once one believes that because they’ve believed that they were born into sin because of something Adam did in the garden there’s this whole plethora of other stuff that’s added. And if you don’t believe this other stuff you’re not really a Christian.

    With 31,000+ flavors of this and that. Round and round she goes, where she stops nobody knows. When I first started to question and after I had accepted the Theory of Evolution I was told by my Southern Baptist “family” that I couldn’t possibly be a “real” Christian if I didn’t believe everything in the Bible, cover to cover, was literally true.

    I’ve been told more times than I care to count that I was never a “real” Christian and for even more reasons than I care to count. *shrug*

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  14. Thanks for the shout-out, Nate. 🙂 It’s good to be back for the time being.

    I want to apologize for my misconception regarding the genealogy in Luke. But I would hold to a similar view in the case of adding names as well as subtracting. One of the interesting things about the O.T. genealogies is that many times only 1 or 2 of several sons are mentioned. The primary goal seemed to be showing who was carrying on either the line of Jesus or the priesthood (mostly prior to the institution of the O.T. ‘official’ priesthood). It was normally the first-born, though not always. In the case of an added name, I would surmise that Luke saw something in the history we don’t know about, not that he had wrong information but rather more information than we did. It is my understanding that a lot of these genealogies were written down and subsequently destroyed in the fall of Jerusalem, 70 a.d. Unfortunately, there’s really no way for us to check the accuracy, but for me, the exact accuracy of the lineage is not an issue, really.

    Looking forward to more great discussions!

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  15. all four Gospels are excellent sources of evidence. All contribute valuable details about Jesus’ life and death.” – Kathy, You wouldn’t BELIEVE the valuable details I could relate to you about John F. Kennedy! I never met him, I didn’t know him, but I heard a lot about him, and I can make stuff up almost as good as Mike. So if you ever need an “excellent source of evidence” regarding Kennedy, I’m your go-to guy! And I can make up all of the “valuable details” you need!

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  16. Arch,

    Nice summation. But I think you forgot that Mike has problems with big words and long sentences. Here’s a version adapted to his level, so that he might enjoy it too.

    JUDGE: Prosecutor, please present your case.

    PROSECUTOR: Well…you see…uh…it might have…er…could have…uh…Look! A pretty rainbow!…It’s Maaagic!…easy peazy.

    ARCHAEOPTERYX: FAIL!

    JURY: LOL….EPIC FAIL!

    JUDGE: Case Dismissed!

    The End.

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  17. also, I don’t get your point that you’ve made several times now about Jesus’ name.. I don’t understand why you think that’s such a big deal??” – don’t you want to be accurate about your savior’s name? What if I called you “Kandi”?

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  18. “lol. to even compare the two just shows how biased these people are OR that they have never studied bible prophecy”

    Mike did you notice not one of the fulfilled prophecies from the Quran required mathematical gyrations ? 🙂

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  19. I’d still like to at least comment on these passages.

    John: 13:1; 18:28, 39; 19:14, 31, 42 (before passover)

    Mark: 14:12 (passover)

    Matthew: 26:17 (passover)

    Luke: 22:7 (passover)

    can you, or kathy, really not see where anyone might have difficulty after reading these passages?

    You wont answer anything else, could you at least answer this?

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  20. Hey Mike, don’t forget OL’ Joe Smith.

    “Civil War: there will be a war between the northern states and the southern states beginning in South Carolina; the southern states will call upon Great Britain for assistance; that after this, war will be “poured out on all nations”; and that “slaves shall rise up against their masters, who shall be marshaled and disciplined for war”.D&C 87 December 25, 1832 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prophecies_of_Joseph_Smith)

    “Latter Day Saints believe that the American Civil War fulfilled this prophecy, in part: it was a war between the northern and the southern states, the war began in South Carolina, and the southern states did call upon the United Kingdom for military assistance.[16] The prediction that after this, war would “be poured out upon all nations” is disputed, but Latter Day Saints argue that the wars that have occurred since the American Civil War—which include two world wars—adequately fulfill this prophecy.[17]” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prophecies_of_Joseph_Smith)

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  21. “lol. to even compare the two just shows how biased these people are OR that they have never studied bible prophecy”

    Who is biased , Mike ? If you believe in fulfilled prophesies of the bible, are you willing to believe in fulfilled prophesies from other religious works ?

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  22. “Mike did you notice not one of the fulfilled prophecies from the Quran required mathematical gyrations ? :-)”

    right. I’m still wondering which biblical prophecy is a “sound” one.

    Matthew was literally pulling anything from the OT and claiming nearly anything was a fulfilled prophecy. “someone in the OT mentioned something about coming out of Egypt… and jesus may have come out of egypt, so it must be a fulfilled prophecy…”

    so much overwhelming factual evidence that mike and kathy dont even know where to begin in citing any… that must be the only reason they havent.

    I like kathy’s point about being unable to prove that the bible isnt from god… how about prove it is from god, kathy. And really, you can no more prove the koran isnt from god as the bible – they must both be true – god surely works in mysterious ways. .

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  23. Too bad, KC, that he couldn’t predict that he’d be shot breaking out of jail in Missouri! Talk about a Rick Perry moment!

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