Dear Kathy,
Since you graciously agreed (in our recent conversation) to let me present you with some examples of the Bible’s problems, I decided to do it in this way so it would have its own comment thread. As I’ve said, when I was a Christian, one strike against the Bible was not enough to shake my faith — maybe it only seemed problematic, maybe there was an explanation we hadn’t uncovered yet, maybe the historical accounts were wrong, etc. But as the problems began to mount up, I reached a point where I could no longer deny the fact that the Bible had actual errors.
A couple of suggestions before we begin. Try to be as open-minded about this as possible. As you go through these examples, ask yourself if God would allow such problems to exist in a message that he wanted all people to accept and believe? According to the Bible, whenever God sent someone a message, whether it was Pharaoh or Gideon or Nebuchadnezzar or Paul, they had no question whom it was from. They didn’t always follow it, as we see with people like Pharaoh and Solomon, but they didn’t question the source of the message or what it stated. So why would God operate differently today? Why would he want us to be so confused about his message that we’re able to question whether or not it’s really from him?
Another thing to keep in mind is that even if you come to the conclusion that the Bible has actual problems, that doesn’t mean you have to stop believing in God. There are a number of Christians who don’t believe in inerrancy. And even if you lose faith in the Christian god, that still doesn’t mean you have to stop believing in God. A number of people, including several of our founding fathers, were deists. I have a lot of sympathy for that view and plan to do a post on it soon.
Some of the items listed here will have links that provide additional information, especially when the issue is too detailed to list here. I hope that you’ll check out those links, since some of them are quite significant points. And regardless of how this article strikes you, I hope it will help serve as a great springboard to launch you into your own research.
Some of the Problems
Creation
The creation accounts in Genesis do not match what we’ve learned through science. This isn’t shocking news, but it bears looking into. Evolution and the Big Bang Theory had nothing to do with my deconversion, but I’ve learned more about both since leaving Christianity. It’s shocking how much misinformation I had been operating under. Not to say that all Christians are that way — that was simply my experience. But the evidence for both evolution and the Big Bang are far more substantial than I had ever realized. Two good resources for learning more about these issues are the following (though I’d also recommend checking out the recent Cosmos series, as well as some of the PBS NOVA specials):
Another problem with the creation accounts is that Genesis 1 says that plants and trees were made on the 3rd day, while man was made on the 6th. But Genesis 2:5-9 says that man was created before there were any plants or trees in the land. Also, the 1st chapter says that man was created after all the animals, but the 2nd chapter implies that it was the other way around. It seems strange that such discrepancies would exist only a chapter apart, but there are a number of textual clues that suggest the first 5 books of the Bible were assembled over a long period of time from various writings written by a number of different people. Many scholars believe that Genesis 1 and 2 represent two separate versions of the creation story that were both included because the compilers didn’t know which was more accurate. Whatever the reason, there’s no question that the differences exist and are hard to explain.
10 Plagues
During the 10 plagues, God afflicts all of Egypt’s livestock with a disease (Ex 9:1-7), and it specifies that it would affect the “horses, the donkeys, the camels, the herds, and the flocks.” We’re told that all of Egypt’s livestock died. But the later plague of boils was said to affect both man and beast (verse 10 of chapter 9). Maybe it meant non-livestock animals. But Ex 11:5 says that the death of the firstborn would also affect Egypt’s cattle, and in Exodus 14, Pharaoh pursues the Israelites with horses.
Hares Chew the Cud
Leviticus 11:6 tells us that hares chew the cud. They do not. Animals that chew the cud are called ruminants. When they eat plant matter, it goes to their first stomach to soften, and then it’s regurgitated to their mouth. They spend time re-chewing it, and then it is swallowed and fully digested. Ruminants (cows, sheep, goats, etc.) are recognizable because their chewing of the cud is very obvious. Hares (rabbits) don’t chew the cud; however, their mouths do move frequently, so it’s possible to see why some people may have assumed that they do chew the cud. Of course, God would know they didn’t, and this is why the passage is problematic. You can read more about this here.
Arphaxad
In the genealogy given in Genesis 11:10-12, we see that Noah fathered Shem and Shem fathered Arphaxad. At the age of 35, Arphaxad fathered Shelah. This information is confirmed in 1 Chron 1:18. But Luke 3:35-36 tells us that Arphaxad’s son was Cainan, and he was the father of Shelah.
Where does Luke get this information? It disagrees with the Old Testament, so who should we believe? Some have suggested that Genesis and 1 Chronicles simply left out Cainan for some reason. But why would they do that? To further complicate it, how could Cainan have fit in there? Genesis tells us that Arphaxad was 35 when he fathered Shelah. Does it really seem likely that Arphaxad became a grandfather by 35, especially when you consider the extreme old ages that people lived to at that time?
Another explanation is that some copyist messed up when copying Luke and Cainan is just a mistake. But this is not much better. First of all, the error would have needed to occur early for it to be in all our copies of Luke. Secondly, are we really comfortable saying that we have the inspired word of our creator, but it got messed up by some guy who wasn’t paying close attention? To me, that doesn’t lend a lot of credence to the idea of inspiration or inerrancy.
Instead, the most likely explanation is that Luke made a mistake. This, of course, would indicate that he was not inspired.
Problems in the Book of Daniel
In Daniel 5, the writer refers to Belshazzar as the son of Nebuchadnezzar 7 different times. Yet we know from multiple contemporary sources that Belshazzar’s father was Nabonidus, who was not related to Nebuchadnezzar. The same chapter says that Darius the Mede took over Babylon, but this person does not seem to have ever existed. Daniel says that he was the son of Ahaseurus, and in mentioning this, the author of Daniel indicates that he was thinking of a later ruler — the persian emperor Darius the Great, whose son was Ahaseurus. This post in particular goes into the problems surrounding the 5th chapter, but if you’d like to learn about the problems in the rest of the book, you can access each article in the series here.
Jairus’s Daughter
In Mark 5:23, Jairus finds Jesus and says that his daughter is at the point of death. While they’re on their way to the house, some of his servants find them on the way and say that she has died and there’s no point in troubling Jesus further.
However, in Matthew 9:18, Jairus already knows that his daughter has died, but tells Jesus that if he’ll lay his hands on her, she’ll live. This may seem like a minor difference, but honestly, there’s only one scenario that could be true. Either the girl was already dead, or she wasn’t. And if Jairus already knew she was dead, then there was no point in his servants coming to tell him that (so of course, they don’t appear in Matthew’s account).
The Centurion
This is similar to the previous issue. Matthew and Luke both record a centurion who asks Jesus to heal his sick servant. Matthew 8:5-13 says that the centurion himself comes before Jesus to ask for help. Luke 7:1-10 says that the Jewish elders went on his behalf, and then he sent servants to follow up. In Luke, Jesus never speaks to, or even sees, the centurion at all.
Hight Priest
In Mark 2:23-28, Jesus talks about the occasion from the Old Testament when David ate the showbread, which Jesus said was in the days of Abiathar the high priest. However, in 1 Samuel 21:1-6, it appears that Ahimelech was the high priest. Some have tried to answer this problem by saying that Abiathar was alive during that particular episode, so Jesus’ statement is still true. But that’s obviously not the intent of the passage. After all, we would correct anyone who said that the tragedy of 9/11 occurred during the days of President Barack Obama. He may have been alive at the time, but that event did not happen while he was President.
430 Years
Galatians 3:16-17 says this:
The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ. What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise.
Here, Paul says that the law came 430 years after the promises were made to Abraham. But in Exodus 12:40-41, we see:
Now the length of time the Israelite people lived in Egypt was 430 years. At the end of the 430 years, to the very day, all the LORD’s divisions left Egypt.
If the Israelites were in Egypt 430 years, then there could not have been 430 years between Abraham’s promises and the law. God made the promises to Abraham in Genesis 12:1-3, and as we read on through Genesis, we see that Abraham had no children at this time. Later, he had a son named Isaac. When Isaac was 60 years old, he had Jacob (Gen 25:24-26), and Jacob had 12 sons that produced the 12 tribes of Israel. Already, we can see that some time has passed since Abraham received the promise. Once Jacob’s sons were all grown with families of their own, they finally settled in Egypt. Jacob was 130 years old at this time (Gen 47:9), and this marks the beginning of that 430 year period that the Israelites spent in Egypt.
That means that the time between the promise to Abraham and the giving of the law was actually over 600 years. So why did Paul say 430 years? I think it’s obvious that this was a simple mistake. He remembered the 430 year figure because that’s how much time the Israelites spent in Egypt, and so he simply misspoke. It’s not a big deal… except that he’s supposed to be inspired by God.
Jesus’ Birth
There are a number of issues surrounding Jesus’ birth. First, Matthew’s and Luke’s accounts contradict one another on virtually all the details, which you can read about here. Secondly, Matthew seems to invent an episode where Herod kills all the children in Bethlehem who are 2 and under, causing Mary, Joseph, and Jesus to flee to Egypt (instead of just returning home to Nazareth, because only Luke says that they started in Nazareth). Matthew does this in order to “fulfill” some Old Testament passages that actually have nothing to do with Jesus or killing babies. You can read about Matthew’s misuse of the Old Testament here — it’s quite blatant.
The Virgin Birth is one of the most famous aspects of Jesus’ story, and it was supposedly done in fulfillment of a prophecy from Isaiah. But it turns out that Isaiah was prophesying no such thing — he was talking about an event that was happening in his own time, and Matthew (once again) just appropriated the “prophecy” for his own devices. You can read all the details here.
Another problem concerning Jesus’ birth narratives is that Matthew and Luke both offer genealogies for Jesus, but they are completely different from one another. Worse, they don’t match the genealogies listed in the Old Testament, either. And Matthew claims that there was a pattern in the number of generations between Abraham and David, between David and the Babylonian captivity, and between the Babylonian captivity and Christ. But to get this neat division, he is forced to leave out some names. In other words, that pattern didn’t happen. You can read more about that here.
The Triumphal Entry
While not as blatant as most of these other issues, when Matthew recounts Jesus’ triumphal entry into Jerusalem, he once again borrows from the Old Testament, but seems to make a mistake in his implementation. See here for more info.
Judas’ Death
Judas is well known for being the disciple that betrayed Jesus, but what’s not as well known is there are two different accounts of his death, and it’s very hard to reconcile them. According to Matthew, Judas threw his money down at the chief priests’ feet and went out and hanged himself. We’re not told where he did this. The priests then take the money, and instead of putting it back in the treasury (since it’s blood money), they buy a field to use for burying strangers. Because they bought the field with this money, it’s called the “Field of Blood.”
According to Acts, Judas bought a field with his money (we’re not told that he was remorseful), and he somehow fell down, bursting open in the middle and bleeding to death. The field was called “Field of Blood” after that because of the manner in which Judas died.
To make things more complicated, Matthew (of course) says that this happened in accordance with Jeremiah’s prophecy, but there’s nothing in Jeremiah that matches up. The closest reference comes from Zechariah, not Jeremiah.
These issues really complicate the notion of divine inspiration, and you can read more about them here.
The Crucifixion
There are several big problems with the way the gospels record the events of Jesus’ death, including the fact that different times of day are given for it, and even different days altogether. You can read more about this here.
The Resurrection
There are also a number of problems concerning the resurrection, some minor, some major. They’re too involved to get into here, but you can read all about them here and here.
The Problem of Hell
The notion of Hell is fraught with problems. It might even surprise you to learn that the Bible’s teachings on the afterlife change dramatically between the Old and New Testaments. I go into detail about Hell’s problems here, here, and here.
The Problem of Evil
Another huge problem for Christianity is the problem of evil, which I talk about here. This post also addresses the “problem of Heaven.”
The Bible’s Morality
While a number of people believe that the Christian god is the source of all morality, the Bible is actually filled with some monstrous acts that are either commanded by God, done with his consent, or carried out by him directly. I talk about some specific examples here, and I address some of the common responses to them here.
Conclusion
Kathy, there are a number of other examples that could be given, including the prophecy of Tyre that we’ve been discussing. But to me, these are some of the most significant and clear-cut problems. We could try to manufacture explanations for every one of these — some might be more believable than others. But why should we have to? If a perfect God inspired this book, why should it contain so many discrepancies? And honestly, some of these issues can’t be explained. They’re just wrong. The problems go well beyond internal contradictions and unfulfilled prophecies. There are problems of authorship, problems with the doctrines, and problems with the way the texts were written, transcribed, and compiled.
I’m sure you’ve spent your time as a Christian trying to reach those who are lost. You’ve always believed that Christianity is truth, and it’s the one thing that everyone needs. But could it be that Christianity is just as false as every other religion in the world? And if that’s the case, wouldn’t you want to leave it behind? When one is dedicated to finding truth, they have to be prepared to follow it wherever it leads. It’s not always easy or popular. It’s not even a guarantee that you’re right. All it means is that you follow the evidence where it leads to the best of your ability. If you find out that you’re wrong about something, you adjust course when the evidence dictates. If God exists, and if he’s righteous, what more could he ask for than that? I’ll close with my favorite quote:
Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.
— Marcus Aurelius
Finding Truth 
“You all are ignoring the truth..” – no, Kathy, we’re ignoring YOUR version of the “truth,” which we don’t believe to be truth at all. I’m really not clear as to why you can’t understand that.
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Kathy, you’re simply wrong. While the Bible has some historical and archaeological accuracies, so do many secular writings. Furthermore, the Bible has many INACCURACIES in these areas too.
The Bible does not have fulfilled prophecies. I used to think it did too, and we are constantly told as much by pastors and apologists. But research shows it isn’t true.
People dying for their beliefs is only evidence of conviction, not truth.
The Bible contains contradictions as well.
Being written by many authors over many years made it very easy for them to make connections between them. It’s basically fan fiction.
If you’re so confident in your convictions, investigate our claims and show where we’re wrong. Until then, you’re just wasting our time telling us things that we’ve already investigated for ourselves and found to come up empty.
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I’ve given you evidence, Kathy, that Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob/Israel, Joseph, Moses and Joshua never existed, evidence that “Matthew,” “Mark,” Luke” and “John” never met Yeshua, if he ever existed, and that “Luke,” in The Acts of the Apostles copied Paul’s travels from Paul’s letters, and doesn’t confirm them, yet you’ve refused to consider anything I’ve presented you, and you still maintain that Christianity has more credentials than any other religion – what planet do you live on?
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I’m always amused when people who believe I’ll be tortured forever for not sucking up to their imaginary friend also insist I’m not being open-minded and objective in rejecting their delusions.
Kathy’s not here to have a discussion or a debate. She’s here to tell you what to think.
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Nate, I don’t understand your response.. there isn’t anything in your last comment that addresses this:
“All my question requires is to name ANOTHER religion that has MORE evidence / credentials
than Christianity. Very very simple.
And if you can’t name another that has more credentials, then ACKNOWLEDGE that Christianity has the most evidence to support it’s truth or “claimed” truth.. ”
If there’s something about my question that you don’t understand, please ask me.. I can refer you back to about 10 other comments that contain the same question.. if you don’t answer, I’ll just assume you acknowledge that Christianity has the most compelling evidence to support it’s claims. Which, you’ve pretty much acknowledged anyway.. but can’t seem to acknowledge your “informal” acknowledgement.. which is kinda weird.. just sayin..
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That’s because, Ron, all her life SHE’S been told what to think, and rather than rebel and think for herself, she decided to simply accept their beliefs. Sad, really.
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“Being written by many authors over many years made it very easy for them to make connections between them. It’s basically fan fiction.”
So, they all dedicated their lives and allowed themselves to be martyred for “fan fiction”.. no rational person can buy this.. it’s an unrealistic assertion. Your claim insists that people made things up and then martyred themselves for what they just made up.
“The Bible does not have fulfilled prophecies. I used to think it did too, and we are constantly told as much by pastors and apologists. But research shows it isn’t true.”
This is simply a lie. What you mean is that no prophecies have been fulfilled according to YOUR EDITED version of the prophecies.
“People dying for their beliefs is only evidence of conviction, not truth.”
Also not true. It’s evidence for their convictions but it’s ALSO evidence for the truth of the Bible/ Christianity. If this were a “case” presented in a courtroom before a jury, this would be considered testimonial circumstantial evidence, which is often considered extremely valuable evidence.
“The Bible contains contradictions as well.” Only if you want there to be “contradictions”.
“If you’re so confident in your convictions, investigate our claims and show where we’re wrong.”
That is the most ridiculous comment you’ve made so far.. as if I’ll get an answer when I show you where you are wrong.. oh wow… incredible.
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Kathy, there’s a lot you obviously don’t know about your religion. I know that sounds rude — I really don’t mean it that way. Hopefully you’ll educate yourself one day. Until then, I don’t see much point in continuing this ridiculous back and forth.
I wish you all the best.
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You keep throwing it out that martyrdom is compelling evidence of the veracity of the Bible (whereas I have every reason to believe that martyrdom is compelling evidence for stupidity) – do this, list those you believe were the martyrs, followed by the non-biblical persons who reported their martyrdom. I say non-biblical, because those would have less reason to fabricate.
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“My question.. THE QUESTION I’m posing to Nate and the rest of you is HOW does the evidence COMPARE? When all the evidence for the other religions is combined.. and weighed against the evidence that argues AGAINST the religion’s truth, what are you left with?? Which one is left with the most credentials to support it’s truth??” – kathy
@Kathy,
I think all the religions fail in regard to being really, and truthfully from the divine. It’s like asking which roach is the prettiest. Whether it be a palmetto, or a cockroach, or a giant hissing African roach – i find nothing “pretty” about any of them.
No, I understand your question, but i think you’re having difficulty accepting the answer.
1) Let me ask you this again, how many religions have you rally researched, and have you done so fairly?
2) if you researched other religions, were you trying to prove them right, as you do the bible, or were you trying to find their errors?
3) what evidences lend credit to the bible, that also do not take credit from it? (history, archaeology, science – all discredit the bible as much as it may credit it)
4) Have you read these passages?
John: 13:1; 18:28, 39; 19:14, 31, 42 (before passover)
Mark: 14:12 (passover)
Matthew: 26:17 (passover)
Luke: 22:7 (passover)
after reading these, never mind telling me which day he was crucified on, just tell me whether or not you can at least understand where some people would be confused by this.
I know that you seem to get irritated when people don’t respond to your questions, but let me remind you that you and mike have not responded to many questions posed to you. You dont like my answer regarding your Christianity credentials, okay, but i did answer… will you now answer some of mine?
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“So, they all dedicated their lives and allowed themselves to be martyred for “fan fiction”.. no rational person can buy this.. it’s an unrealistic assertion. Your claim insists that people made things up and then martyred themselves for what they just made up.” – Kathy
Not unrealistic at all. Think about it. They thought jesus was the messiah, who was going to retake the throne in Jerusalem, but when he was killed, the disciples were confused – how could god let him die? The gospels actually allude to this some, none of the disciples or apostles believed that he had risen at first- because they didn’t know he was supposed to die…
so they began trying to rationalize it. Some probably did walk away, feeling stupid that they fell for it, while others began connecting dots from the OT – but these dots werent really there… and this ties into this comment of yours:
“This is simply a lie. What you mean is that no prophecies have been fulfilled according to YOUR EDITED version of the prophecies.” – kathy
Read matthew. When he says that something was a fulfilled prophecy, read back through the OT, looking at the surrounding context of his “prophecies” and you’ll see that they werent really prophecies at all in most cases, and in one instance he credits jeremiah with something that zechariah actually wrote – which i shouldnt have to explain why that would be a problem – but just look at them.
So they’re trying to make sense of the events that transpired and mesh them with their expectations and come up with OT sacrifice and change out a kingdom in Jerusalem for a kingdom in spiritual Israel (heaven). They start thinking back to all the vague parables that they never understood and started saying, “well, this may have meant that, etc, etc” and slowly built their religion like kids creating the rules of a game they’ve invented while they’re simultaneously playing it…
It took some imagination, it took superstitious, very poor, illiterate people and constantine. Once that set in, all it took was mom and dad’s certainty to convince their children, then toss in the fear of “the emperor’s new clothes” and you have a lasting religion.
But even if you brush all that aside without really considering it or researching it, you still have other religions that have lasted a long time, with their books and with their martyrs and with their historical figures, etc which gives them as much credentials as christianity has – so credible evince that makes christianity “better” would have to be something else.
please, dont ignore my comment that was previous to this one.
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“The Bible does not have fulfilled prophecies. I used to think it did too, and we are constantly told as much by pastors and apologists. But research shows it isn’t true.”
ROFL..HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
I don’t have the time to do anything but scan but glad I caught this. Please do a post some time in the future on how research shows that the nation of Israel was not reborn. Then you can move on to other howlers like the 90% fence westbank is a city wall, the 6 day war never happened and that a Jewish man prophesied to be rejected by his own people would be revered the world over
No fulfilled prophecies whatsoever eh? 🙂
Your failure to hide your supreme bias is complete my boy.
But please the post that covers the nation of Israel not being reborn first. please give links to your Till resource for added entertainment value lol . Then you can go after the rest and we can call it
Nate’s King of Comedy Collection
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“John: 13:1; 18:28, 39; 19:14, 31, 42 (before passover)
Mark: 14:12 (passover)
Matthew: 26:17 (passover)
Luke: 22:7 (passover)”
Sparky stop your non stop lying if you can. I already gave you a link that covered almost all of those verses. So you are ignorant of what was referred to as the passover and clearly don’t know what the day of preparation was. So?
What else is new?
But
Have a great day1
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MY bias? Funny stuff, Mike. Look, the “prophecies” you’ve touted are anything but. It’s fine — I know you’ll never see it that way. But there are plenty of silent onlookers who have read our exchanges, and I’m confident the majority of them will see that there are problems in every bit of “evidence” you’ve brought forth.
In fact, it was the same line of arguments that you continue to use that helped me see the apologists really don’t have the solid case I had grown up thinking they had. I trust that many others will be just as underwhelmed. Whether that results in them going to a less fundamentalist version of Christianity, or going to deism, or leaving a belief in God altogether, they’ll at least have a fuller picture of the shortcomings of Christianity.
So thanks for that, if nothing else.
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“MY bias? Funny stuff, Mike. Look, the “prophecies” you’ve touted are anything but.”
So go for it Master jester. Show us all how upon further research Israel did not become a Nation again. I missed that in your last hand waving Macarena routine. Remember theres no fulfilled prophecies in the Bible whatsoever my boy.
So Go for it.
Appealing to you rubberstampers can’t save you so get going with this “research”
LOL. Till is what you “studied” – Wikipedia links and Till – what you rresent 90% of the time and call it “research”.
So ‘pony up – wheres Till’s link on how Israel never became a Nation again. We can give him a “produced by” credit line in your new comedy DVD.
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“Sparky stop your non stop lying if you can. I already gave you a link that covered almost all of those verses. So you are ignorant of what was referred to as the passover and clearly don’t know what the day of preparation was. So?” – mike
So?? You cant answer for yourself? are you saying that the article you cited fully represents your position on it?
I’m having a discussion with you and kathy, and was wanting your comments on the passages, but if you read my questions, reconciling these obvious differences wasnt even my main question, it was whether or not you could see where some people might be troubled by such.
Are you and kathy willing to comment on that?
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Possibly she should look into the Mesopotamian god, Marduk (but we KNOW she won’t), who was the son of the Sumerian god, Enki (Lord Ki), featured in the “Enûma Elish.” Father Enki voluntarily recognized the superiority of the son and hands over to him the control of humanity.
The Marduk Prophecy is a text describing the travels of Marduk from Babylon, in which he pays a visit to the land of Ḫatti, corresponding to the sack of the city by Mursilis I, in 1531 BC – Assyria, when Tukulti-Ninurta I overthrew Kashtiliash IV in 1225 BC – and Assur, and Elam, when Kudur-nahhunte ransacked the city around 1160 BC.
Marduk addresses an assembly of the gods.The first two sojourns are described in glowing terms as good for both Babylon and the other places Marduk has graciously agreed to visit. The episode in Elam, however, is a disaster, where the gods have followed Marduk and abandoned Babylon to famine and pestilence. Marduk prophesies that he will return once more to Babylon to a messianic new king, who will bring salvation to the city and who will wreak a terrible revenge on the Elamites. This king is understood to be Nabu-kudurri-uṣur I (Nebuchadnezzar?). Thereafter the text lists various sacrifices.
A copy was found in the House of the Exorcist at Assur, whose contents date from 713-612 BC and is closely related thematically to another vaticinium ex eventu text called the Shulgi prophecy, which probably followed it in a sequence of tablets.
The Sumerian belief system stayed in place for over 4,000 years, twice as long as Christianity has been around, and didn’t need a Constantine to sustain it either.
The main thing (and there are many others) that Kathy doesn’t understand about debate, is that a REAL debater needs to be able to argue either side of an issue, equally plausibly, and to do that, she (in this case), needs to study other religions with the view of having to prove them true, should the need arise. Then, and only then, will she truly understand the religion she is debating against, and she might just learn, that other religions have as much merit as her own.
But she’ll never do that – we all know that her only interest lies in confirming her own bias.
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“So go for it Master jester. Show us all how upon further research Israel did not become a Nation again. I missed that in your last hand waving Macarena routine. Remember theres no fulfilled prophecies in the Bible whatsoever my boy.”
show us how israel became a nation as prophesied again. Israel is there, though not with a king or with levitical priests. How completely was your prophecies fulfilled, I think you forgot to go over the deatils?
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LOL
Mike thinks a link to the same hack apologist who lacks basic knowledge of body decay rates and seed germination is a credible source of information on bible contradictions.
What a joke.
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“a REAL debater needs to be able to argue either side of an issue, equally plausibly, and to do that, she (in this case), needs to study other religions”
Good so maybe when I get the time to come here again you would have put in the work and become a real debater because the illusion you and your other comrades have that if other religions can point to some fulfilled prophecies it invalidates the bible’s prophecies just shows you haven’t studied the religion of Christianity.
We don’t expect that only Christians and Jews can show evidences of the supernatural (not a confirmation of any of your claims mind you). Buy a clue from Sajak 🙂
Se ya soon. Don’t miss me
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Nate, RE: “But there are plenty of silent onlookers who have read our exchanges” – speaking of which, I couldn’t help noticing you’ve picked up 10 new subscribers since this began, you should probably thank Mikey for that —
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“show us how israel became a nation as prophesied again. Israel is there, though not with a king or with levitical priests. How completely was your prophecies fulfilled, I think you forgot to go over the deatils?”
ROFL get me out of here before my sides hurt too much. Israel is prophesied to NOT have a king until the rightful one comes. But hey lets not get distracted now -your fearless leader has a comedy DVD to produce. Get going with how the nation of Israel never became a nation again . Since um….errrr,….ahhh…
There are no fulfilled prophecies in the Bible.
Come one man – At least help Nate with with sound and lighting
See you soon too sparky
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Perhaps Mike is a polytheist? He doesn’t believe Yahweh is the only god, just the best one.
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@Nate,
I think you’re right that there’s no point in continuing this back and forth.
This isn’t Till – this isn’t even anybody of particular note – except that these are proclaimed Christians who have their own refutations of the “reborn Nation of Israel”. I only post the links to show that not all Christians are in agreement about the status of this “fulfilled” prophecy. Evidently it isn’t as clear as some might believe.
http://www.clr4u.org/blog/?p=646
http://thinkingoutsidetheblog.blogspot.com/2011/07/is-modern-state-of-israel-fulfillment.html
http://www.equip.org/articles/modern-israel-in-bible-prophecy-promised-return-or-impending-exile/
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Doctrines/Zionism/israel_idolatry.htm
http://againstdispensationalism.com/2012/01/christian-eschatology-the-irrelevance-of-the-modern-nation-state-of-israel-to-biblical-prophecy-by-brian-abshire/
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@ Nate,
I left a comment that is in moderation because it has a number of links in it. I forgot about the link limit.
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