Agnosticism, Atheism, Christianity, Faith, God, Morality, Religion

Bloody Well Right

Nate

If God is love, how do we explain the Old Testament passages where he commands the Israelites to eradicate entire groups of people, even the children (Josh 9:24; Num 31; 1 Sam 15)? Sometimes people say it was to punish these people for their evil practices, like child sacrifice. Well, child sacrifice is certainly a terrible thing. But does it make sense to punish child sacrifice by killing all the children?

Let’s think about this for a moment. When cultures engaged in child sacrifice, it’s not because they just loved killing children — it’s because they believed it served as some kind of propitiation, appeasing their gods for the greater good. So if God didn’t approve of child sacrifice, what seems like the most rational way to deal with it: (1) kill everyone, including all the children you don’t want killed, or (2) make yourself known to these people as the one true god and tell them that child sacrifice is not what you want? Wouldn’t option 2 be a win-win scenario?

Here’s something else to consider. If God didn’t like child sacrifice, why did he command Abraham to offer his son Isaac as one? Granted, he stopped the sacrifice before the boy was killed, but isn’t this a weird command for a deity who despises child sacrifice? And what about Psalm 137, where the inspired writer is lamenting Babylon’s destruction of Jerusalem and says the following:

8 O daughter of Babylon, who are to be destroyed,
     Happy the one who repays you as you have served us!
9 Happy the one who takes and dashes
     Your little ones against the rock!

Furthermore, if God wanted the Canaanites destroyed because of their heinous practices, why stop at Canaan? There were many cultures that engaged in terrible practices like this from time to time — why not send the Israelites to slaughter them all? Instead this “judgment” is only brought against people in the same geographic location that God wanted the Israelites to inhabit:

After the death of Moses the servant of the Lord, it came to pass that the Lord spoke to Joshua the son of Nun, Moses’ assistant, saying: 2 “Moses My servant is dead. Now therefore, arise, go over this Jordan, you and all this people, to the land which I am giving to them—the children of Israel. 3 Every place that the sole of your foot will tread upon I have given you, as I said to Moses. 4 From the wilderness and this Lebanon as far as the great river, the River Euphrates, all the land of the Hittites, and to the Great Sea toward the going down of the sun, shall be your territory. 5 No man shall be able to stand before you all the days of your life; as I was with Moses, so I will be with you. I will not leave you nor forsake you. 6 Be strong and of good courage, for to this people you shall divide as an inheritance the land which I swore to their fathers to give them.
— Josh 1:1-5

So they answered Joshua and said, “Because your servants were clearly told that the Lord your God commanded His servant Moses to give you all the land, and to destroy all the inhabitants of the land from before you; therefore we were very much afraid for our lives because of you, and have done this thing.”
— Josh 9:24

How strange that these passages focus on taking the land from the Canaanites and not on their evil natures…

As a final consideration, even if the only thing left to do with these evil Canaanites was kill them all, does it make sense that God would choose the cruelest and most agonizing way to do it? Instead of speaking them out of existence, or immediately striking them all dead, he has them besieged by invaders. They’re forced to watch their loved ones being massacred before being hacked to death themselves. Would God really command this?

How does a god who would command genocide on this scale differ from the vilest despots of the modern era? What’s the difference between this god and bin Laden? What’s the difference between a god like this and a devil? Could a god this bloody be right?

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Published by Nate

446 thoughts on “Bloody Well Right”

  1. Hifzan, RE: “Theist in your idea is majorly ‘Christian’.” – I’m not entirely clear as to what you are saying. If you are saying that when I think of theists, I think of only Christians, that would not be true. If you are saying that most of the theists I know are Christians, being an American, that would be true, although I have had both Iranian and Iraqi, as well as Lebanese friends, all of whom were Muslim.

    I further agree that there was a period, during what I call Islam’s Golden Age, when the Islamic countries kept the flame of knowledge and learning alive for the world, while Europe was undergoing its Dark Ages, due almost entirely to the repression fostered there by religion. We owe them a great debt for that.

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  2. Thank you, Nate. I’ve been following your post since you first published it. I want to share a link with you that reflects the rumblings that are happening right now in America among the very wealthy Christian right and we have every reason to be concerned. This ties in with your OP. From the article:

    “Throughout Scripture,” Leithart declared in a passage from his 2012 book Between Babel and Beast, “the only power that can overcome the seemingly invincible omnipotence of a Babel or a Beast is the power of martyrdom, the power of the witness to King Jesus to the point of loss and death.”

    (David) “Lane wrote in his WND essay, elaborating on Leithart’s theme, “‘What is our goal?’ To wage war to restore America to our Judeo-Christian heritage with all of our might and strength that God will give us. You ask, ‘What is our aim?’ One word only: victory, in spite of all intimidation and terror.”

    Lane’s essay is a clarion call for a contemporary religious war against the supposedly pagan government of the United States. And his notion of war is not just a metaphor for politics. He even called for a contemporary “Gideon” and a “Rahab the Harlot” to rise to the occasion. Gideon is the Biblical figure who leads an Israelite army in an ethnic cleansing of the Midianites who were both oppressors and worshiped false gods.”

    http://www.politicalresearch.org/2014/06/11/rumblings-of-theocratic-violence/

    I used to work for American Family Association (AFA) — Family Family Radio (AFR) — mentioned in the article — when I was a Christian. I saw this same war mentality and it drove me to the deepest despair. I kept asking myself “where is the love?” Their inhumane ideologies were so bad I had to seek counseling. Working for Christian AFA/AFR was the beginning of my deconversion process. I wrote a recent post about how I fell in love with Jesus and the mind-control techniques that have been used by Christian revivalists (clergy and evangelist) since 1735. This website was brought to my attention yesterday, and I found the article today. In it, it mentions mind-control strategies that get people in an altered state, a suggestive state, exactly what I experienced in church as a Christian and wrote about in the recent blog post I mentioned.

    This is why we simply can’t let are guard down as noted at the very end of the article I linked above, and especially in light of the SCOTUS decision on Monday. The Christian right is very war-like, and they will stop at nothing to make damn sure that America is under the rule of the Yahweh war god, Jesus daddy.

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  4. “This is why we simply can’t let are guard down as noted at the very end of the article I linked above, and especially in light of the SCOTUS decision on Monday. The Christian right is very war-like, and they will stop at nothing to make damn sure that America is under the rule of the Yahweh war god,”

    Insert article about some fringe personality add rhetoric and shake and stir. Who could be more militant than the new atheist leader whose whole mission in life is to stamp out anyone believing in religion? So much so that harris stated in his book its conceivable that people should be killed for just their faith (begging desperately afterwards it was taken out of context as if he and intelligent man committed words to paper he did not know had a certain resonance) .

    Besides why blame the christian right? Isn’t it some cosmological element that affects their behavior. Fix outer space I say 🙂

    P.S. keep your guard and rhetoric up. Without the assistance of the almighty I guess the minority always win.

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  7. @Nate,

    You said:

    Therefore, if things like the genocide of the Canaanites don’t affect us, there’s a real problem.

    This is how I feel as well. It’s both disturbing and scary when we see people still trying to justify genocide. We don’t need to grow up in a Christian nation to see how a religion that has the concept of a God that cares about and loves it’s creation and also justifies genocide is self-contradictory. When I converted to Christianity I converted because I saw it as a truth and revelation representing moral goodness, not as one that justified genocide and the other atrocities in the bible. I can’t count how many times I have heard Christians declare Islam as false for it’s atrocities, but we are belittled because we reject the same in the bible.

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  10. “This is how I feel as well. It’s both disturbing and scary when we see people still trying to justify genocide. We don’t need to grow up in a Christian nation to see how a religion that has the concept of a God that cares about and loves it’s creation and also justifies genocide is self-contradictory. ”

    God taking people’s life is called death. Genocide is men taking men’s life without God’s say so. The self contradiction is all in your head and of your own definition.

    What’s next? Claiming the death penalty is murder? Probably but most of society doesn’t go with your definitions

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  12. “T — I’ll clarify — do you worship Yahweh, Jesus’ daddy?”

    Either the disturbance in the Andromeda galaxy is long lasting or your incoherence is not a product of it. Wait….hold on… New data with possible explanation.

    Ahh Meteor shower through 2 PM EST

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  16. “Are you in love with Yahweh?”

    Check your vinyl record. It seems to be scratched. Possible result of tiny fragments from the meteor shower if you have been outside. If not make sure to cover and give your cat a pedicure.

    or switch to digital.

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  19. “Why won’t you answer the question? It’s not a difficult question to answer. A simple yes or no will do.”

    I answer questions within a construct of logic and dialogue. outside of that – no go. Its kind of Like what I do to door to door salesmens. I just say no thanks no matter what questions they ask.

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  21. @T — So you are in love with Yahweh and therefore eternal life in paradise awaits you? Well you hope, anyways.

    Those of us who are not getting a neurochemical reward and who’s neural circuitry has not been deactivated by those reward neurohormones/transmitters can see the atrocities committed and condones by Yahweh and are repulsed, but you seemingly justify them.

    Neurological studies show that deep attachment/bonding (in your case — to Yahweh) has activated a part of your brain’s reward system that coincides with areas rich in oxytocin and vasopressin receptors as well as dopamine. The neurological studies show that when you are in love certain neural circuitry deactivates a common set of regions associated with negative emotions and judgment. Neuropharmacological studies show that dopaminergic (dopamine) activation is the leading neurochemical feature associated with religious activity.

    Love can be blind to those who have a profoundly deep love/bond/attachment for their god.

    T — I’ve read all these comments (including yours) to get a better idea of your personality and where you are coming from. I don’t think you are addicted to power which releases lots and lots of testosterone and dopamine — but you appear to be are deeply in love with your god which releases other powerful reward chemicals. I also suspect that an afterlife is very important to you — and death anxiety is very common among our species.

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  22. T — I would also like to mention that I personally don’t have a problem with people believing in god or gods. Belief/faith is personal and should be private — between the person and their choice of god they want to worship. I understand the evolutionary purpose of faith.

    But when these personal faiths start to intervene with the well being of other people’s lives, their faiths, beliefs and non-beliefs, then we have problems. And we certainly have serious problems in America because many people believe that we all should worship Yahweh.

    Is this your belief as well — that all the world should worship Yahweh — the biblical god? Jesus said “I and the Father (Yahweh) are One”.

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  23. “Neurological studies show that deep attachment/bonding (in your case — to Yahweh) has activated a part of your brain’s reward system that coincides with areas rich in oxytocin and vasopressin receptors as well as dopamine.”

    I’ve read your clap trap before Neuro. You pretend to the uninitiated like you have the brain etc figured out where no one in the field claims to know this. I have a background in Psychology – peddle your wannabe expertise to someone else.

    Meanwhile every REAL expert in the field knows that anyone attempting a diagnosis/mental assessment over the internet much less blog comments is a blithering ignorant fool (not a mental assessment but acceptable as fact)

    Attempting it as you did – your hereby qualify. Congratulations.

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  24. “Neuropharmacological studies show that dopaminergic (dopamine) activation is the leading neurochemical feature associated with religious activity. ”

    Dopamine is activated in a number of pleasurable experiences you nitwit. Further Christians are not always “In love” with spiking dopamine levels (EVERYONE experiences spikes). Sometimes faith is downright unpleasurable (especially when you have to repent or realize you are not right with God ). Furthermore people at low levels of dopamine still believe in God.

    You are hach who uses a few studies (probably found on Google scholar) in order to back up your biases and pretend you are supporting them by science. Plain and simple.

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  25. “But when these personal faiths start to intervene with the well being of other people’s lives, their faiths, beliefs and non-beliefs, then we have problems. And we certainly have serious problems in America because many people believe that we all should worship Yahweh.”

    Then leave Neuoro. Vamoose. Giddy up. I’ll help you pack. Don’t let the door hit your rear end on your way thought the plane’s door because telling people they must keep their faith personal and make sure it does not intersect with anything public is just code words for

    We don’t want everyone to have free speech.

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