Ezekiel’s Prophecy of Israel’s Restoration

I was recently told that an excellent example of prophecy fulfillment in the Bible is the prophecy that the nation of Israel would be restored, as recorded in Ezekiel 4. If true, that would be a huge boost to the Bible’s credibility, so let’s dig in and see how it fares.

In Ezek 4:4-6, God tells Ezekiel to do the following:

4 “Lie also on your left side, and lay the iniquity of the house of Israel upon it. According to the number of the days that you lie on it, you shall bear their iniquity. 5 For I have laid on you the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days; so you shall bear the iniquity of the house of Israel. 6 And when you have completed them, lie again on your right side; then you shall bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days. I have laid on you a day for each year.”

A little context is probably in order. Ezekiel lived during the time that the nation of Judah was taken captive by Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon. Much of his writings talk about the captivity that the Jews are under, and in this passage, he prophesies about when they’ll return from captivity. As the end of verse 6 says, each of these days represents one year.

The Case For This Being a True Prophecy

The person who pointed me to this prophecy gave this link as a good explanation of how this prophecy works, so I’ll be referring to its points throughout this post.

First, we take these two periods and add them together: 390 years for Israel + 40 years for Judah = 430 years.

Next, Babylon took Judah captive in 606 BCE for exactly 70 years leaving 360 years left to go. But how do we explain this leftover 360 years?

Well, it turns out that Leviticus 26 lays out all these conditions on the Israelites. There, God tells them that as long as they serve him faithfully, he’ll bless them. But if they don’t serve him faithfully, then he’ll punish them “7 fold” or “7 times” for their sins (Lev 26:18-33). So if we take those remaining 360 years and multiply them by 7, we get 2,520 years.

But we’re not done yet. We must remember that the Jews used a calendar based on both lunar and solar years. They had 12 30-day months and would occasionally add in leap-months as needed to keep the seasons lining up correctly. So to understand what Ezekiel meant by “year,” we need to convert these 2,520 years into days, which comes out to 2,520 x 360 = 907,200 days.

Now to find out how many actual years this represents, we need to convert back to the standard 365.25 day/year calendar that we use today. This comes out to 907,200 / 365.25 = 2,483.78 years.

We can finally connect all the dots:
606 BCE – 70 years = 536 BCE
-536 (since it’s BCE) + 2,483 + 1 (since there’s no year 0) = 1948 CE

And 1948 is the year that Israel was again made a nation! Furthermore, Jerusalem fell to Nebuchadnezzar in 587 BCE, 19 years after he took Judah. And Jerusalem was restored to Israel in 1967 CE — exactly 19 years after they reclaimed the nation of Israel! So the numbers work out for Jerusalem as well!

So that’s the case for the prophecy being legit. But are there reasons to be skeptical?

The Case Against This Being a True Prophecy

There are actually a number of problems with what I laid out above, and those familiar with the Old Testament may have already seen them.

First of all, why should the years in Ezekiel’s prophecy be added together at all? Ezekiel says there will be 390 years for Israel and 40 years for Judah — it’s no accident that he separated them. According to Jewish tradition, all 12 tribes of Israel were united when they took the land of Canaan. They remained united through all 15 judges and through kings Saul, David, and Solomon. But after Solomon died, the nation split into two kingdoms: the nation of Israel, consisting of the northern 10 tribes, and the nation of Judah, consisting of the southern 2 tribes. So far, the archaeological evidence leans away from this story. It appears that Israel and Judah were never united into one large kingdom, but that’s outside the scope of this article, so we’ll leave it at that for now.

Israel was taken into captivity by the Assyrian Empire in 722 BCE. Many passages in later parts of the OT predict those lost tribes being restored, and it seems that this is what Ezekiel is referring to in this passage. That’s why they’re given a different period of time than Judah is — they were taken captive almost 150 years before Judah was. So it does not make sense to add these years together as though they refer to one specific thing. Israel and Judah were being dealt with separately here.

Secondly, the starting date of 606 BCE for Judah’s captivity isn’t accurate. In 606 BCE, Judah was its own kingdom, though it was a vassal state to Egypt and had been for 2 or 3 years. Egypt and Babylon were butting heads in the region during this time. Nebuchadnezzar came to the throne in 605 BCE, and he defeated Egypt at Carchemish that same year. That’s when Judah changed allegiance from Egypt to Babylon, as it was suddenly clear that they were now the most powerful force in the region. But it wouldn’t be appropriate to say they were under captivity at that time. They were still a separate kingdom that paid homage to Babylon. If we were to make the case that such a scenario equaled captivity, then Judah’s captivity would actually have begun in 609 or 608 BCE under Egypt.

In 601 BCE, Nebuchadnezzar tried to invade Egypt, but his forces were driven back, which caused several of the kingdoms in the Levant to rebel against him. Judah was one of them. In 599 BCE, Babylon besieged Jerusalem, and the city fell in 597 BCE. But at this point, Judah still retained its status as a vassal kingdom, and Nebuchadnezzar appointed Zedekiah as king. But several years later, Zedekiah revolted, aligning the kingdom with Egypt once again. This time, when Nebuchadnezzar took the city, he practically leveled it, and much of the population was taken off into captivity. This was in 587 BCE.

Considering this information, the most likely candidate to mark the beginning of Judah’s captivity is 587 BCE. Even if you try to push it back further, it’s hard to make a case for any time before 597 BCE, and this causes problems for the math that was laid out above.

One of the problems has to do with the 70 years of Babylonian captivity that was talked about above. When you were reading the above arguments, it may have struck you as odd that 70 years got subtracted for Judah’s captivity to Babylon, when Ezekiel said 40 years. The reason 70 was brought up is because of Jeremiah 29:10, where Jeremiah prophesies that Judah would be in captivity for 70 years. But that’s not what happened.

When the Persian Empire overthrew Babylon in 539 BCE, they allowed the Jews to return to Jerusalem that same year (Ezra 1:1). The numbers differ depending on when you count Judah’s captivity as beginning, but this makes Judah’s captivity as few as 48 years (the more likely figure) or as many as 66 years. This again causes problems for all the equations that were used above.

There’s also the issue of multiplying the years by 7. There’s some discussion about whether the passage in Leviticus means that punishments would be multiplied by 7 years, or whether it would mean 7 separate punishments (like 7 additional plagues, etc). There’s also the issue that this kind of language is often taken to be more symbolic than literal. Furthermore, if this is how God was going to mete out the punishment, perhaps that’s already been calculated into the numbers he gives Ezekiel. Again, the passage has God say “a day for each year,” and there’s no indication that it should mean anything else. But I view those as side points.

The main problem I have is why does the multiplication of 7 only apply to 360 of the years? Why wouldn’t it have applied to all of them? So if we add the years together, and multiply by 7, we would have 3,010 years, not 2,520. Even if we continue to use 360-day years, that calculation comes out to 2,966.74 years, which puts us around the year 2431 CE. Of course, that isn’t helpful to those who want this prophecy to be true.

There’s another issue that should be mentioned as well. It turns out that the Septuagint doesn’t use the same figures as the Masoretic text. The Septuagint records Ezekiel 4:4-6 like this:

And thou shalt lie upon thy left side, and lay the iniquities of the house of Israel upon it, according to the number of the hundred and fifty days during which thou shalt lie upon it: and thou shalt bear their iniquities. 5 For I have appointed thee their iniquities for a number of days, for a hundred and ninety days: so thou shalt bear the iniquities of the house of Israel. 6 And thou shalt accomplish this, and then shalt lie on thy right side, and shalt bear the iniquities of the house of Juda forty days: I have appointed thee a day for a year.

It’s hard to say if 390 is the correct number, or if 150 is. Some people think that 150 is original, but that later scribes changed it once that amount of time had passed. But who knows? Unfortunately, there’s not a way to know which number is original to the text, which makes it very hard to base predictions upon.

Finally, the last piece of this that should be questioned is using a 360-day calendar. The Hebrew calendar was based on both the cycle of the moon as well as the solar year. Therefore, it is said that their calendar consisted of 12 30-day months, and every couple of years they would add a 13th month to keep the years aligned correctly with the seasons. But this isn’t exactly right. A lunar month follows the phases of the moon, which does not work out to 30 days exactly. Instead, it will alternate between 29 and 30-day months, meaning that the Hebrew calendar year came out to 354-355 days (or 385 days on leap years). This calls into question using a 360-day calendar to recalibrate the years in Ezekiel’s prophecy.

Furthermore, the Jews still understood that a year consists of 4 seasons (which is why they used intercalary years), so it seems bizarre to redefine “year” every time it’s used in prophecies. And it’s easy to see how big a 5.25 day variance can be. In the example at the beginning of this post, it took us from 2,520 years to 2,483.78 years. Daniel 12 and the Book of Revelation are the only places in the Bible I’m aware of that use a 360-day average in reference to a year. But I think it’s hard to argue that those references mean every time “year” is used in a prophecy it should be recalculated using 360-day years. Most calendars in the ancient world did not operate that way, and 360 days per year was a good generic estimate when referring to how many days are in a year at that time. Just as today we refer to a year as 365 days, when we realize that an extra day is needed every 4 years. That doesn’t mean when someone says something will happen in 20 years we have to recompute it to 19.98 years — we know they mean 20, regardless of how the leap years fall. I’m sure there are some Christians who would argue vociferously over the need to use 360-day “prophetic” years, but they have to. Without them, too much fails.

Conclusion

This was a really long post, and we’ve covered a lot of ground. I certainly can’t speak for everyone, but I personally do not find this prophecy to be a good example of a real prophecy. When taken at face value, Ezekiel talks about 390 years for Israel and 40 years for Judah. Neither of those figures work out correctly. Since they don’t, many different explanations have been sought after to make this prophecy point to something significant. The beginning of this post laid out one of those arguments, and on the surface, it seems pretty impressive. It gets us to the years 1948 and 1967 which are definitely important to the nation of Israel. But to get there, we’re making several sacrifices, like what year Judah went into captivity, adding the years together, multiplying some of them by 7, and converting the years to a 360-day format that almost certainly wasn’t the intent. And there’s still the issue of whether or not that translation is even accurate.

To me, this prophecy is simply too vague to be of any use. And the method used to create a connection to modern-day Israel is too problematic to be anything but evidence against prophecy-fulfillment, in my opinion.

Resources used in this article:
http://www.alphanewsdaily.com/mathprophecy2.html
http://www.theskepticalreview.com/JFTProphecyEzekiel4.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ezekiel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Judah
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_%28587_BC%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nebuchadnezzar_II_of_Babylon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_calendar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_calendar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunisolar_calendar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_month
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophetic_Year

Advertisements

159 thoughts on “Ezekiel’s Prophecy of Israel’s Restoration”

  1. what’s interesting to me is the discrepancy in the transcripts… Once upon a time i once thought the “originals” (which were really just copies) were harmonious.

    what happens when you dont have an original to check and your copies dont agree?

    Like

  2. 🙂 🙂 so many error in your post its not funny nate

    Like you said its a long post so it will it take a couple copy and pates (but not too many)

    “I was recently told that an excellent example of prophecy fulfillment in the Bible is the prophecy that the nation of Israel would be restored, as recorded in Ezekiel 4.”

    First off this is a lie. I didn’t give a single excellent example. I know how atheists like yourself operate to avoid the truth of fulfilled prophecies so I specifically stated I would mention many. However that said let see how you fare. 🙂

    “First of all, why should the years in Ezekiel’s prophecy be added together at all? Ezekiel says there will be 390 years for Israel and 40 years for Judah — it’s no accident that he separated them. ”

    Its actually no accident that Ezekiel lies on his side for 430 days consecutively. he doesn’t conflate them as you claim so why should you? Thats fudging because you don’t like how the numbers play out

    Ezekiel 4:4-6 (KJV)
    4 Lie thou also upon thy left side, and lay the iniquity of the house of Israel upon it: according to the number of the days that thou shalt lie upon it thou shalt bear their iniquity.
    5 For I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days: so shalt thou bear the iniquity of the house of Israel.
    6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.

    Its pretty clear that Good old Zeke is out there for 430 days. Theres nothing subtracted for overlap. so what is to be played out in the drama IS 430 days without any question whatsoever. IF nate were right that they should not be added then their would be a conflation of the number as to reflect that but the passage says its 430 days representing years that must be played out against Jerusalem

    THATS NATE FAIL NUMBER ONE

    “Secondly, the starting date of 606 BCE for Judah’s captivity isn’t accurate. In 606 BCE, Judah was its own kingdom, though it was a vassal state to Egypt and had been for 2 or 3 years. Egypt and Babylon were butting heads in the region during this time. Nebuchadnezzar came to the throne in 605 BCE, and he defeated Egypt at Carchemish that same year”

    An expected claim. But what nate has missed is that even his secular sources indicate that the Bible is indicating 606 BC.

    Daniel 1:1 (KJV)
    1 In the third year of the reign of Jehoiakim king of Judah came Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon unto Jerusalem, and besieged it.

    Behold the sceptic’s own …Ahem Bible admission
    http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/dan/1.html

    “The third year of the reign of Jehoiakim would be 606 BCE, at which time Nebuchadnezzar was not yet king of Babylon. It was 597 BCE that Nebuchadnezzar invaded Jerusalem for the first time (without actually destroying it).”

    the explanation for that can be found multiple places. Heres one

    http://www.aboutbibleprophecy.com/q33.htm

    THATS NATES FAIL NUMBER TWO

    To be continued.

    Like

  3. Hi Mike,

    The Daniel passage does say that, you’re right. But the 606 BCE year is not supported by historical documents, nor is it supported by Jeremiah 36. In the 9th verse, it says that Jeremiah is prophesying in the 5th year of Jehoiakim, and the 29th verse says this:

    29 And concerning Jehoiakim king of Judah you shall say, ‘Thus says the Lord, You have burned this scroll, saying, “Why have you written in it that the king of Babylon will certainly come and destroy this land, and will cut off from it man and beast?”

    This shows that Jehoiakim was still reigning beyond his 3rd year. Also, 2 Chronicles 36 shows us that Jehoiakim reigned a total of 11 years, and when Nebuchadnezzar did come against him, he took him captive to Babylon:

    5 Jehoiakim was twenty-five years old when he began to reign, and he reigned eleven years in Jerusalem. He did what was evil in the sight of the Lord his God. 6 Against him came up Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon and bound him in chains to take him to Babylon. 7 Nebuchadnezzar also carried part of the vessels of the house of the Lord to Babylon and put them in his palace in Babylon.

    So Daniel’s account can’t be right. Considering the other issues in the Book of Daniel, I don’t suppose this is a huge shock. Scholars are fairly united in thinking it was written during the Maccabean time period, which would explain the historical mistakes.

    Like

  4. “Considering this information, the most likely candidate to mark the beginning of Judah’s captivity is 587 BCE. Even if you try to push it back further, it’s hard to make a case for any time before 597 BCE, ”

    Here Nate you are hopelessly confused. There were two periods of Nebuchanezzars actions against Jerusalem one which resulted in no destruction in which Daniel goes into captivity and the later destruction of jerusalem in tragedy

    In reality both dates are used. Its not a matter of one over the other. One forecasts the return of sovereignty in 1948 and one the return of jerusalem in 1967 in what we know as the 6 day war. Both dates work beautifully. Had you waited to discuss the issue instead of this failed attempt to rebut we would have gotten into the details of the 1967 calculation

    “When the Persian Empire overthrew Babylon in 539 BCE, they allowed the Jews to return to Jerusalem that same year (Ezra 1:1). The numbers differ depending on when you count Judah’s captivity as beginning, but this makes Judah’s captivity as few as 48 years (the more likely figure) ”

    Wrong in every way conceivable.

    A) The first year of a king’s reign (which is what Ezra specifies) does not line up with the beginning of a year. It lines up with whatever time he began to reign. Anytime within his year even if that should go over into another calendar year.

    B) You did an awful job at reading the text. If you had even read the chapter you would see the message is ADDRESSED to the group that was taken into captivity BEFORE the fall of Jerusalem and its sooooo obvious it should hurt

    Jeremiah 29:1 (Darby)
    1 And these are the words of the letter that the prophet Jeremiah sent from Jerusalem to the residue of the elders of the captivity, and to the priests, and to the prophets, and to all the people whom Nebuchadnezzar had carried away captive from Jerusalem to Babylon

    See? Jeremiah is still at Jerusalem writing a message to those taken in the captivity. SO what we have is no “likely” 48 years but nearly 70. 69 in fact which lines up with a 360 day year as well. some time in 538 BC for the decree and easily 537 by the time they get there and start tilling the land again that was to rest for the sabbatical years

    “This again causes problems for all the equations that were used above.”

    your numbers being off your conclusion falls flat

    ANOTHER FAILED POINT

    “There’s also the issue of multiplying the years by 7. There’s some discussion about whether the passage in Leviticus means that punishments would be multiplied by 7 years, or whether it would mean 7 separate punishments (like 7 additional plagues, etc).There’s also the issue that this kind of language is often taken to be more symbolic than literal.”

    Unfortunately nothing but fudging. 7 or 7 times is how the word is translated in the Hebrew and leviticus 26 is part of the law not something symbolic. That ridiculous.

    ANOTHER FAILED POINT—-

    “The main problem I have is why does the multiplication of 7 only apply to 360 of the years? Why wouldn’t it have applied to all of them? So if we add the years together, and multiply by 7, we would have 3,010 years, not 2,520.”

    Thats easy if again you had done the research. God could not accept the seventy years for Daniels captivity and then multiply that on them. They were the good figs

    Jeremiah 24:1-7 (ASV)
    5 Thus saith Jehovah, the God of Israel: Like these good figs, so will I regard the captives of Judah, whom I have sent out of this place into the land of the Chaldeans, for good.
    6 For I will set mine eyes upon them for good, and I will bring them again to this land: and I will build them, and not pull them down; and I will plant them, and not pluck them up.
    7 And I will give them a heart to know me, that I am Jehovah: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God; for they shall return unto me with their whole heart.

    This is contrasted later with the bad figs who would continue to be persecuted outside the land. God could not multiply the 70 years they had served because the condition of the law required the seven times only if they would not listen and repent. Once there was one group of bad and one group of good but only one land then in order to finally ends the diaspora the 70 years had to be subtracted (you would not have the land desolate and not at the same time)

    IN addition Daniel 9 clearly indicates that 70 sevens are to be cut off off time

    So sorry but there is no issue with subtracting the seventy years. the law would require it.

    ANOTHER FAILED POINT —–

    one more short post because from what I have seen you have not even put a finger on this biblical calculation

    Like

  5. Interesting article and discussion. I’m always interested in prophecy related stuff, and typically my viewpoints don’t line up with most of my Christian peers. Looking forward to reading more.

    Like

  6. Jeremiah 29:3 says this:

    3 The letter was sent by the hand of Elasah the son of Shaphan and Gemariah the son of Hilkiah, whom Zedekiah king of Judah sent to Babylon to Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon.

    Obviously, since Zedekiah was king, this was after the events of 597 BCE. There’s 58 years between 597 and 539. So despite your reference to Jeremiah 29:1, you’re still very short of the 70 years Jeremiah spoke of.

    As to the good figs, let me make sure I understand what you’re saying. You’re saying that God allowed a group of people to be taken captive by foreign invaders, but then called them the “good figs”? And this somehow excludes them from the 7x punishment? I think you’re making a lot of connections in various spots of the OT that don’t really connect.

    I mean, Jeremiah 24 says that the “bad figs” will have all kinds of bad things happen to them, and they’ll be utterly destroyed. It does not say that they will be captive 7 times longer than the “good figs.” And even if it did say that, it wouldn’t make any sense, seeing as how these people couldn’t have lived 2000+ years anyway.

    I understand your need to make all this fit together. It just simply doesn’t fit as well as you’d like for it to. I won’t call you names or rub it in your face, because I know it’s a difficult position to be in. I’m sorry.

    Like

  7. ” I won’t call you names or rub it in your face”

    🙂 🙂 Nate I am really sorry if I explained things to you in a way that made you FEEL like you even actually had anything to rub in my face.

    I will try and break things down for you a little better so you have a better understanding.

    You are quite wrong that the 70 years relies on Jeremiah 29:10. You missed the following

    Jeremiah 25:11 (ASV)
    11 And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.

    along with the other passages that I already laid out there is no doubt whatsoever that seventy years is a key number to be subtracted. its in Daniel and Its in Jeremiah. Theres nothing you can do about this. Its a number in the text.

    In addition theres nothing you can do about this

    Jeremiah 29:10 (ASV)
    10 For thus saith Jehovah, After seventy years are accomplished for Babylon, I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place.

    Put those two verse together and its pretty clear its a 70 year period in which Judah and other nations must serve babylon and the results would be desolation and astonishment on the land from those years. Ez peazy

    perhaps that will clear up your misunderstanding a bit.

    and as I said Daniel also calls for the same 70 times 7 to be cut off out. – A kind of Double whammy against your position.

    Its also clear at the end of this point there is repentance by the good figs. I’ve already shown that but I’ll get to it again in debunking your points in order

    that said onto these objections that you apparently think are so killer you could rub them in my face with them if you wanted to.

    First your Daniel 1 claim That daniel is wrong. Unfortunately all predicated on the fact that Jehoiakim is still reigning years later. As you write

    “This shows that Jehoiakim was still reigning beyond his 3rd year. Also, 2 Chronicles 36 shows us that Jehoiakim reigned a total of 11 years, and when Nebuchadnezzar did come against him, he took him captive to Babylon:”

    Your problem Nate? No one said Jehoiakim didn’t continue to reign and you are DEAD WRONG in the latter half when you say that when Neb did come up against him he took him hostage. In fact he came up against him long before and didn’t take him captive

    2 Kings 24:1 (ASV)
    1 In his days Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came up, and Jehoiakim became his servant three years: then he turned and rebelled against him.

    So Daniel is entirely in order despite your claims. Neb comes up and makes Jeho his vassal continuing to rule.From the first time that Babylon comes up against Jerusalem he makes JUdah to serve him fulfilling the beginning of the seventy years of service to babylon. As part of that arrangement Daniel is sent to Babylon along with other captives from the royals and nobles

    Daniel 1:3-7 (ASV)
    3 And the king spake unto Ashpenaz the master of his eunuchs, that he should bring in certain of the children of Israel, even of the seed royal and of the nobles;
    4 youths in whom was no blemish, but well-favored, and skilful in all wisdom, and endued with knowledge, and understanding science, and such as had ability to stand in the king’s palace; and that he should teach them the learning and the tongue of the Chaldeans.

    Jehoakim continues to serve under him but then rebels. Years later yes he’s taken out. EZ peazy.

    “So Daniel’s account can’t be right.”

    Actually it can and it is. Theres nothing about Jehoakim not continuing to reign. You clearly missed the first coming up of Neb to Judah where Jehoakim is made a vassal.

    long post.

    I’ll follow up the rest shortly

    Like

  8. Thanks Mike.

    I’m well aware that the Bible talks about the 70 year period in several places, it just didn’t work out that way historically. That’s the problem.

    And I already covered the relationship between Judah and Babylon in the post. Babylon defeated Egypt in 605 BCE. Until that time, Judah had been a vassal state of Egypt — Jehoiakim was even appointed by Pharaoh Necho. But once Egypt lost to Babylon, the Levant, including Judah, came under Babylon’s control. This was not the beginning of Judah’s captivity — if this period were considered captivity, then it would have begun when Egypt was still in control.

    This is the period spoken of in 2 Kings 24, when Jehoiakim served Nebuchadnezzar. About 3 years later, in 601 BCE, Nebuchadnezzar tried to invade Egypt, but was rebuffed. This is when Jehoiakim rebelled. Nebuchadnezzar did retaliate, and Jehoiakim was taken captive (according to 2 Chron 36), and he died shortly after. This was in 597 BCE.

    Judah finally came under actual captivity in 587 BCE, after they rebelled for the last time.

    The 606 date just doesn’t work. Nebuchadnezzar wasn’t even reigning at that time, and Egypt still controlled Judah. Daniel is simply wrong, which isn’t surprising, considering that book’s other errors.

    Like

  9. “Obviously, since Zedekiah was king, this was after the events of 597 BCE. There’s 58 years between 597 and 539. So despite your reference to Jeremiah 29:1, you’re still very short of the 70 years Jeremiah spoke of.”

    Sorry no you are wrong. Sure the letter is sent during the time of Zedekiah but by that time including the people in Daniel’s carry over to babylon they have been there for quite some time as daniel indicates rightfuly. 29:10 is explicit the time is for babylon and service to Babylon

    Jeremiah 29:10 (Darby)
    10 For thus saith Jehovah: When seventy years shall be accomplished for Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in bringing you back to this place.

    Again you just don’t get it. It can’t be talking to a time of 587 Bc and the destruction of Jerusalem because the clock had already started and Jerusalem was still standing. You are just plain wrong on that. now what that could apply to is a start date to do the 1967 maths yes but thats a different matter from the end of the captivity.

    “As to the good figs, let me make sure I understand what you’re saying. You’re saying that God allowed a group of people to be taken captive by foreign invaders, but then called them the “good figs”?”

    Nate your incredulity because you want to slide your way around this doesn’t matter to me or the text. I don’t have to say antyhing its what the text says. READ

    Jeremiah 24:1-7 (ASV)
    5 Thus saith Jehovah, the God of Israel: Like these good figs, so will I regard the captives of Judah, whom I have sent out of this place into the land of the Chaldeans, for good.

    Part of the reason they are sent out is for their own protection which is pretty easy to see when Babylon does take out Jerusalem. They all are removed peacefully

    ” I think you’re making a lot of connections in various spots of the OT that don’t really connect.”

    Oh please how can a passage about captivity in Babylon not be connected to the captivity in Babylon.

    “I mean, Jeremiah 24 says that the “bad figs” will have all kinds of bad things happen to them, and they’ll be utterly destroyed. It does not say that they will be captive 7 times longer than the “good figs.”

    Doesn’t have to – the multiplication of seven is even better than a prophecy in jeremiah. Its called for in the Law of Moses upon which all prophecies are based. You were a bible teacher you should know that.

    ” And even if it did say that, it wouldn’t make any sense, seeing as how these people couldn’t have lived 2000+ years anyway.’

    thats a pretty silly objection. the punishment was national and theres no doubt whatsoever that the bible predicts a long diaspora for many years for the Jews. Thats just desperation on your part

    “I understand your need to make all this fit together. ”

    I understand you have alot riding on not wanting to see anything that could even remotely prove you wrong about the bible. I’ve read you enough to know that but statistically this calculation isn’t something reasonable people would snuff at. The multiplication by seven is called for in the law and the numbers are all there on the surface text. You’ve faild to put a glove on them.

    I know that puts you in a difficult position and I won’t call you names or rub it in your face but – I’m sorry

    Like

  10. Okay so having covered everything one thing remains. Nate spends a considerable amount of his post opining the 360 day year. he did this for the Daniel 9 passage but it just won’t work for this biblical calculation.

    He could try and claim that the 360 year was invented after the fact to facilitate christians but this time the 360 day year is Waaaaaay before the fact and its clearly in revelations

    its in Revelations 11

    Revelation 11:2-3 (Darby)
    2 And the court which [is] without the temple cast out, and measure it not; because it has been given [up] to the nations, and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty-two months.
    3 And I will give [power] to my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.

    Its in revelations 12
    Revelation 12:6 (Darby)
    6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has there a place prepared of God, that they should nourish her there a thousand two hundred [and] sixty days.

    Revelation 12:14 (Darby)
    14 And there were given to the woman the two wings of the great eagle, that she might fly into the desert into her place, where she is nourished there a time, and times, and half a time, from [the] face of the serpent.

    and it correlates with Daniel chapter 9 using THE SAME multiplication by seven and including the same 70 year period being cut off.

    SO the 360 day year is a lock in the Bible and nothing changes that

    So whatever you think of this passage What are the odds that the same multiplication system called for in Daniel (and the law) and using the 70 years in Daniel would result in

    the date for the coming of christ
    the return of national sovereignty to Israel in 1948
    and the liberation of Jerusalem in 1967

    You asked me for prophecy evidence in the other thread not for one excellent example like you claimed in this OP. You failed to put a glove on this one so lets rock and roll over the next few days with a few more and you can show me your fudging skills

    Like

  11. if this period were considered captivity, then it would have begun when Egypt was still in control.”

    Read the text and/or do some research for once Nate. the 70 years of service to Babylon cannot begin serving egypt, You make ZERO sense there

    “The 606 date just doesn’t work. Nebuchadnezzar wasn’t even reigning at that time, ”

    It works fine and is the year specified in Daniel 1 as you already have admitted to. Your objections to Daniel 1 being thoroughly debunked theres no reason to disregard it. If you are pegging all your hopes and dreams of rebutting this to Neb reigning officially as king it won’t work. He could even be a general or a viceroy in 606 BC

    Like

  12. if they literally meant that a year was 360 days, then eventually their December equivalent would fall in summer… and then hit all the other seasons over time.

    Like

  13. @TBlacksman

    Riddle me this: if prophecy was considered so important to your particular Middle Eastern god, why not just impart something entirely unambiguous… something that didn’t require the mental hoop-tricks and frantic numbers games that are so embarrassingly unconvincing that no reasonable person could ever possibly accept them?

    Like

  14. “Riddle me this: if prophecy was considered so important to your particular Middle Eastern god, why not just impart something entirely unambiguous……..that no reasonable person could ever possibly accept them?”
    .
    He does. Maybe the problem is that you are not very sensible or rational?

    Like

  15. “if they literally meant that a year was 360 days, then eventually their December equivalent would fall in summer… and then hit all the other seasons over time.”

    DOA Sparkie. The Prophecy has noting to do with agriculture and theres no doubt whatsoever that revelations shows a prophetic 360 day year in use in what? Umm over 1500 years before 1948

    Like

  16. @TBlacksman

    I see. Now give me a second to file your answer away as one of the weakest, most absurd excuses ever offered up by an apologist.

    Like

  17. “I see. Now give me a second to file your answer away as one of the weakest, most absurd excuses ever offered”

    You sure you have space in there after all your own entries? Looks kinda full

    Stick around john. I’ll have some prophecies for the mathematically challenged.

    and yeah sometimes atheist need to see that they an be zinged back better than they can give.

    Like

  18. I prefer Daniken’s interpretation of Ezekiel.
    One of Ezekiel’s descriptions is eerily like a Harrier jump jet. I cannot in all honesty see what else it could be.
    Either that or they were cooking up some really potent Babylonian Acid that Eze didn’t know if it was bum or breakfast time.

    Like

  19. “One of Ezekiel’s descriptions is eerily like a Harrier jump jet.”

    Nah man Revelations takes the cake on that bro. Its got this gnarly passage that describes like a tank

    “Revelation 9:17-19 (Darby)
    17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and those that sat upon them, having breastplates of fire and jacinth and brimstone; and the heads of the horses [were] as heads of lions, and out of their mouths goes out fire and smoke and brimstone.
    18 By these three plagues were the third part of men killed, by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which goes out of their mouths.
    19 For the power of the horses is in their mouth and in their tails: for their tails [are] like serpents, having heads, and with them they injure. ”

    Gnarly Dude 🙂

    Like

  20. @TBlacksman

    So, let me get this straight: in your mind, a fabulously obscure passage in Ezekiel is, you say, a thoroughly unambiguous, tremendously important prophecy made by your particular Middle Eastern god. However, even by the most inventive subtraction, addition, multiplication and division by Pi of the square root of the circumference of the earth the math just doesn’t work. To justify your belief you are forced to cite a series of astonishingly cryptic clues which you (presumably using your Magic Decoder Ring) have excavated from six completely unrelated books (Chronicles, Daniel, Leviticus, Ezra, Jeremiah, and Revelations), dealing with completely unrelated matters, which however, you claim, makes everything perfectly clear…. Provided, of course, you first add a dash of lime, lift one leg up off the ground, and close one eye while singing Kumbaya in Swahili.

    Let me guess: you’re an avid viewer of Glenn Beck, right?

    Like

  21. @arkenaten

    You may have a point. Moses always stepped down from the mountain with a “radiant” face. And it keeps mentioning that cloud of smoke around the tent of the tabernacle. Seems like the Yahweh cult had entheogenic origins.

    Like

  22. ” However, even by the most inventive subtraction, addition, multiplication and division by Pi of the square root of the circumference of the earth the math just doesn’t work. ”

    Well that depends as to what decimal placements you used and whether you used the circumference of the south pole and took into account the angle of the earth’s tilt during a Chandler wobble to do the appropriate trigonometry. Did you do that?

    I’m sorry that you find subtracting 70 and multiplying by 7 and 360 so hard it makes your head hurt but we do after all have calculators to ease your pain. Walmart? Target nearby?

    “have excavated from six completely unrelated books (Chronicles, Daniel, Leviticus, Ezra, Jeremiah, and Revelations), dealing with completely unrelated matters,”

    OH vey I ‘m sorry I can’t think of a calculator that will help with English comprehension. All I can suggest is Sylvan’s – unrelated matters eh? 🙂

    As for can’t come to the right date. Heh. Nate has even come to 1967 yet. just warming up John

    Like

  23. Sorry to barge in on the conversation, but I’d like to ask a few questions:

    Reading the text at face value it seems that the initial punishment was set for 430 years. Using the x7 rule wouldn’t it make more sense to be evaluated at the end of the punishment? If they had not repented after 430 years then the punishment should be multiplied by 7. 430 x 7 = 3,010 years of punishment. This would seem more straightforward.

    I have a few questions for the Bible experts on this site:

    Are there other places in the Bible where punishments are multiplied by seven?
    Does anyone know who discovered this prophecy?

    Thanks,
    Dan

    Like

  24. “Reading the text at face value it seems that the initial punishment was set for 430 years. Using the x7 rule wouldn’t it make more sense to be evaluated at the end of the punishment?”

    Unrealized by many people much of prophecy comes out of the law. Its disobedience to the law that causes all the prophets to speak up in the first place. The answer to your question finds it self in the same passage and law referenced – Leviticus 26. there are two things going on. One we have touched on is the 7 times of sin’s punishment but the other which is referenced quite a lot in Jeremiah is the sabbatical rest and its mention here in Leviticus as well

    Leviticus 26:34-35 (Darby)
    34 Then shall the land enjoy its sabbaths all the days of the desolation, when ye are in your enemies’ land; then shall the land rest, and enjoy its sabbaths.
    35 All the days of the desolation it shall rest, [the days in] which it did not rest on your sabbaths, when ye dwelt therein.

    Every so many years Israel was supposed to lay off the land (a good principle even used not with crop rotations today). As you see the law calls for years of the land to rest and the land has to be vacated regardless. So regardless of any forgiveness the sabbath have to be observed, this period mirrors the seventy years and is another reason why it is subtracted for the overall 430 years.

    “Are there other places in the Bible where punishments are multiplied by seven?”

    I am not aware of any other command that requires seven time for sin punishment and not to an individual. However as you are probably aware multiplying seven is not unique for future calculations. Daniel chapter 9’s seventy weeks is the same idea and using one of only two likely points its numbers add up to the time of Christ using some of the calculations

    Its this combination that makes it HIGHLY unlikely this is coincidental and bear in mind Ezek 4 is primarily about Jerusalem and we have yet to touch on the 1967 date of Israel regaining control of Jerusalem which ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT rely on picking 606 or 605 BC as a start date.

    Unfortunately Nate decided to break away from our discussion and write this article when we had only gone half way into this issue and that part is not even discussed at any length in his piece.

    Like

  25. Hi Dan, thanks for the comment! I agree with your point, and it reminds me of what John Zande said earlier. I think that to view the prophecy as it was laid out at the beginning of my post stretches credibility in its tying together so many disparate passages and tweaking the numbers with suspect calculations.

    I don’t know of any other passages where punishments have to be multiplied by 7. Daniel 9 does it, but only because he’s working to make Jeremiah’s 70 years prophecy point to what was happening in his own time. While the Book of Daniel portrays the character of Daniel as living during the time of Nebuchadnezzar and Cyrus, the majority of scholars agree that this was a bit of historical fiction. The Book of Daniel gets a number of details wrong (such as saying that Nebuchadnezzar took captives from Jerusalem in 606 BCE, but there are far more), and textual evidence also indicates that it was written sometime around 167 BCE. Because there were around 400 years between the time of Nebuchadnezzar and the writer of Daniel, he transforms Jeremiah’s 70 years prophecy into a “70 weeks of years” prophecy, which comes out to 490 years. A time much closer to the time period he was “prophesying” about, when Antiochus Epiphanes was in power, reigning from Jerusalem.

    I have an old article about this here, if you’re interested. I did not write it, but had permission to repost it.

    Thanks again for your comment!

    Like

  26. Its this combination that makes it HIGHLY unlikely this is coincidental and bear in mind Ezek 4 is primarily about Jerusalem and we have yet to touch on the 1967 date of Israel regaining control of Jerusalem which ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT rely on picking 606 or 605 BC as a start date.

    Unfortunately Nate decided to break away from our discussion and write this article when we had only gone half way into this issue and that part is not even discussed at any length in his piece.

    When have any limits to a conversation ever stopped you? And I didn’t place limits on this anyway. When you brought this prophecy up, I told you that it was too detailed to get into in that thread, so I moved it to its own post. This comment section is here to allow you to say whatever’s on your mind. If you want to talk about 1967, go for it.

    Like

  27. I don’t recall saying you had Limited it Nate but whether you like it or not your article was premature because you didn’t and haven’t addressed all of it before coming to your conclusions. Maybe thought that was all to it because Mr till thought so? Or knew what you were going to come to regardless? I don’t know

    seemed odd is all so I posted it. Like you have said I don’t stop speaking my mind.

    Like

  28. “…Nate but whether you like it or not your article was premature because you didn’t and haven’t addressed all of it before coming to your conclusions.”

    of course he didnt. He needs 5 more semesters of calculus before it all really makes sense.

    God’s word is so simple… detailed… er, those dont seem like the right words, so I’ll just say “there.”

    Like

  29. Every so many years Israel was supposed to lay off the land (a good principle even used not with crop rotations today). As you see the law calls for years of the land to rest and the land has to be vacated regardless. So regardless of any forgiveness the sabbath have to be observed, this period mirrors the seventy years and is another reason why it is subtracted for the overall 430 years.

    Just trying to understand… If you take every 7th year (sabbath year) out of 430 years you get about 61 years taken away. Is that not how it works?

    Thanks,
    Dan

    Like

  30. “Just trying to understand… If you take every 7th year (sabbath year) out of 430 years you get about 61 years taken away. Is that not how it works?’

    NO not how I read it. they are two different things. Just because there was years of sin doesn’t mean in that time the land would not have rested. the 7o year period is supplied to us from multiple texts not derived from the 430 years. Its a good question though

    Like

  31. “of course he didnt. He needs 5 more semesters of calculus before it all really makes sense.”

    If you are telling me it takes you five classes to figure out how to subtract 70 from a number and then multiply it by 7 and then 360 then I’ll believe you.

    to your whole barf it should be simple – if its one thing we know about this universe its that it is HIGHLY mathematically ordered. it should not be surprising at all if an intelligence is behind it he would have some maths involved in his revelations somewhere

    Like

  32. Oh, and it’s all so clear. Here’s how you do it:

    Wait until an important event happens. Then scour the Bible for any way that will let you manipulate the numbers into what you need. If the order of operations doesn’t work, then change them around until you get it right! Numbers that throw off the calculation? Disregard them!

    And that, my friend, is how you rightly divide the word.

    Like

  33. ” Numbers that throw off the calculation? Disregard them!

    And that, my friend, is how you rightly divide the word”

    What happened Nate? Getting kind of shrill. Is it because you are realizing that the whole 605 BC thing will not matter squat when it comes to the 1967 calculation. TIll didn’t tell you about that? No numbers are disregarded . Theres a multiplication of seven commanded in the torah the years designated in Ezek and and the 70 years cutoff by Daniel.

    Sorry Nate all there and waiting for the 1967 part of the calculation. Rev locks int he 360 day year as being in prophetic use and the end.

    605 BCE gone – not an issue
    want to claim the Jews just magically corrected the numbers to the right count because Till told you the septaugint was right? Fine. maybe even more divine action given the statistical likelihood of that

    Whats left. What other excuse do you have?

    Like

  34. What excuse do I have? Surely you’re joking. I’m aware of how people get to 1967 — it still involves the same magic math, even though you don’t need the 606 BCE date. I really have nothing else to add beyond what’s been said.

    This is so far from what the average person would consider a clear, logical prophecy fulfillment that I’m surprised you brought it up

    Like

  35. “I really have nothing else to add beyond what’s been said.”

    Yeah thats what I thought. TIll didn’t cover it and You can’t fall back on the only thing you had going in the 605 BC date so the Macarena and handwaving would start because the calculation NAILS the 1967 date for the retaking of Jerusalem using very well accepted dates.

    Thats the great thing Nate. Whenever I see you start doing your flubbing around I know even you know your Hack job article’s been busted.

    “This is so far from what the average person would consider a clear, logical prophecy fulfillment that I’m surprised you brought it up ”

    LOL…You must think this is my first rodeo presenting this.if you think you can fool me with that hueeey. I’ve seen the average person’s reaction to these facts and you be lying. You keep begging and pleading. Ton loads of “average people” HAVE seen through all the nonsense skeptics pull with this one and see a calculation system that both fixes the time of Christ in Daniel 9, and the years of 1948 and 1967

    and they can figure out the statistical odds.

    No wonder you left the second half out of your article

    Like

  36. Thats the great thing Nate. Whenever I see you start doing your flubbing around I know even you know your Hack job article’s been busted.

    It’s funny to me that you bring this up. I noticed a while back that your claims of victory get louder and more demonstrative whenever your evidence is the weakest. It’s a bizarre trait, but you’re very consistent in the way you do it. Oddly, your best points don’t include all the rhetoric.

    Anyway, my intent is not to persuade you — I realize there’s no chance of that. I’m only writing for the objective people who may be reading. If I feel like you bring up a point worth talking about, I’ll engage.

    All the best.

    Like

  37. “It’s funny to me that you bring this up. I noticed a while back that your claims of victory get louder and more demonstrative whenever your evidence is the weakest. ”

    Of course nate. You cant touch the dating on the 1967 part of the calculation but thats made my argument weaker. ROFL.

    No wonder you hide out on your blog with your rubberstampers. Anyone else would see the stupidity of your claim

    Like

  38. @TBlacksman

    It’s clear that you’re so deep in your noisy delusion that you can’t even comprehend just how “stupid” you actually appear; presenting such nonsense and, pricelessly, doing your own back-slapping. It’s entertaining, in a sad and pathetic way.

    Like

  39. No wonder you hide out on your blog with your rubberstampers. Anyone else would see the stupidity of your claim

    And this is why, on this forum, all but Kathy and SOM regard you as imbecilic.
    Even Habermaas, Licona and Craig offer better, more reasoned arguments than you and as apologetic as those three are they would toss you aside like the cheap, unprincipled and ignorant trash that you are , Mike.
    You are an embarrassment even to apolgetics.

    Like

  40. ” It’s entertaining, in a sad and pathetic way.”

    and perhaps in that, a moment of vague shared familiarity of experience. you get a glimpse into my bemusement when reading your substance less attempts at rhetoric. 🙂

    Like

  41. “And this is why, on this forum, all but Kathy and SOM regard you as imbecilic”

    And they be good company to be esteemed in rather than the sad company who among them has One named Ark who cannot count verse numbers and stands clueless that there are no verse break downs in Greek manuscripts.

    Better to be considered normal among the wise than to be cherished as smart among fools. The first is a compliment and the latter a derisive state of man.

    When Nate handwaves and sputters that is one good sign of my point but when the Ark poors forth spittle and foam like a Pepi bottle shaken for hours (rather than the usual sow ooze) –

    You know you have hit the mark 🙂

    Like

  42. And this is why, on this forum, all but Kathy and SOM regard you as imbecilic.

    Apparently SOM missed the part where he and Kathy were trashing his beloved RCC. Or maybe it’s a case of “the enemy of my enemy is my friend”.

    Like

  43. Better to be considered normal among the wise than to be cherished as smart among fools. The first is a compliment and the latter a derisive state of man.

    Well, if you find any normal among the apologetics you keep company with….please write and let us know, okay? There’s a good boy.

    Like

  44. SO in review let us summarize what the snivellers now consider to be their golden point (all others having evaporated). Its basically that in a universe intertwined with mathematics what has been presented is either too complicated for their simple minds (how confused would they be seeing the maths the same God used in the universe 🙂 or allegedly the numbers are contrived.

    Pretty much another Nate Fail

    because the seventy is most definitely not a contrived number and is involved in two different calculations – nailing the coming of Christ in one (and using the same multiplication of seven no less) and nailing 1967 and 1948 as the end of that punishment phase. Sorry chaps. Further the “70” and its subtraction is demanded since Both leviticus and Jeremiah indicate repentance and forgiveness is granted to one set of jews after that time period AND the return of blessing is promised Post those 70 years to the forgiven.

    Whats left? the years of sin supplied by the text and multiplied by seven as demanded by the Torah. Ooooh thats so difficult and twisted in its maths eh? However will you grasp it without five courses in calculus according to Will boy.

    There is the hand waving of calendar to be used I guess but since the bible provides us without a shadow of a doubt a 360 day year calendar in prophecies that objection is pretty much toast.

    Perhaps you can raise some other point the above objections being so easily dismissed. After all I only post to see what you can come up with. May as well give me my money’s worth – or since I paid nothing you thought the same would be required in reply?

    At the very least one thing is clear. My point about Nate’s poor scholarship articles have been proven yet again. Who writes an article that doesn’t cover the whole issue (even though he ALLEGES he knows how the 1967 number is come to and tht the date he harps on is not 605 BC for that)? Answer is simple – Someone who does and wants to do a hack job.

    However since the dearly departed Till does not cover that part either I guess Nate was out of source material. WIkipedia wouldn’t come to the resource. That might be the explanation – but that would only prove my point as well.

    Like

  45. “Well, if you find any normal among the apologetics you keep company with….please write and let us know, okay?’

    Will do. I am sure they all know maths and can teach you how to count as bonus. Shucks they will surely be able to show you pictures of Greek manuscripts with no verse numbers

    Shock your pants off. 🙂

    Like

  46. “Apparently SOM missed the part where he and Kathy were trashing his beloved RCC. Or maybe it’s a case of “the enemy of my enemy is my friend”.

    Apparently you are still having deep problems with coming up with substantive points. 🙂

    I’d be shocked If SOM did not know protestants have some issue with Roman Catholicism particularly as relates to the past. I wouldn’t expect someone who has never been a Christian to understand the nuances though.

    And where was this “trashing” I did? Wouldn’t want to be caught in another lie would you?

    Like

  47. @Mike

    Will do. I am sure they all know maths and can teach you how to count as bonus. Shucks they will surely be able to show you pictures of Greek manuscripts with no verse numbers

    Did it give you a warm and tingly feeling believing you were the only one that knew the MS had no verse numbers? Really?
    Such a little scholar you are.
    Let’s see if teacher can find you a gold star and a tack to pin it on?
    Will the middle of your forehead be okay? So’s all the other kiddies in Junior Bible Class can see?
    Good, there you go. Now, run along and play, and remember…Jesus wants you for a sunbeam, Mike. And h is watching you, Mike so….no touching, all right?
    Good boy.
    Just you go count those verse one more time, okay?

    Like

  48. “Did it give you a warm and tingly feeling believing you were the only one that knew the MS had no verse numbers? Really?”

    No but laughing at someone who didn’t does tend to warm the face

    “Such a little scholar you are.
    Let’s see if teacher can find you a gold star and a tack to pin it on?’

    After the summer beak when school resumes could you ask your teacher for me then? Adults like myself have to go looking for them and its a pain.

    Like

  49. After the summer beak when school resumes could you ask your teacher for me then? Adults like myself have to go looking for them and its a pain.

    Oh, I’m sorry, Mike. I thought Yeshua was your teacher? Did he throw you out of class and give you detention for being such an unchristian obnoxious twat? Oh, dear.

    Well you can put the time to good use and count those verses..again. There’s a good boy.

    Like

  50. ‘Mike reminds me of this fellow:”

    lol…..Ron you remind me of a 14 year old kind with free time on Mom’s computer…Ooooh Youtube.

    Wait… that might not be “remind be of” but more like “remind me that you are” 🙂

    Like

  51. “Oh, I’m sorry, Mike.”

    Smile…I seem to recall you berating Nate somewhere for not including all aspects of some prophecy and here you are cutting short my comment so’s it suit your interpretation.
    How very Christian of you , Mike. I think the correct term would be, ”Making it up as you go along.”

    Really, what an ignorant apologetic plonker you truly are. At least a bloke such as Licona has a modicum of integrity.
    But you…really you’re an embarrassment to your faith and your god, and neither do you have a true understanding of Christianity.

    Like Gandhi is supposed to have said. ”I like you Christ but I do not like your Christians.”
    You are a pathetic excuse of a representative for your religion

    I doubt Yeshua would give you the time of day.

    Like

  52. “Smile…I seem to recall you berating Nate somewhere for not including all aspects of some prophecy and here you are cutting short my comment so’s it suit your interpretation.”

    Wait your saying context change the fact that you said sorry and ducked. Hmmm so context matters when its you speaking but not when its in a Biblical text. hmmmmm veeeeeery interesting.

    Besides that your floundering. the zing I made is unrelated to cutting quotes short. You want a do over? Fine —

    “Oh, I’m sorry, Mike. I thought Yeshua was your teacher? Did he throw you out of class and give you detention for being such an unchristian obnoxious twat? Oh, dear.”

    No need to apologize. Pretty much expected. So in other words you can’t get the gold star. She keeps you as far away from them as she can

    No shock there. LOL

    Works the same

    Like

  53. “Really, what an ignorant apologetic plonker you truly are. ”

    and yet I knew that Gk manuscripts have no verse numbers, the verse count of Mark and don’t use words like plonker as demonstrating my limited vocabulary. So what does that make you? AH yes

    The One who has to learn the basics of GK manuscripts from an apologetic plonker 🙂

    Kinda like a Plonker wannabe? I’ll just call it PW for short.

    Like

  54. lol…..Ron you remind me of a 14 year old kind with free time on Mom’s computer…Ooooh Youtube.

    Now you’re projecting, because your “Michael Anthony” Google+ account had nothing but comments left on a Youtube video.

    Like

  55. @Ron

    It’s funny that you posted that video. I was telling someone the other day how much Mike reminded me of that scene!

    Like

  56. And just for kicks, I’ll offer my little synopsis as well:

    Ezekiel gives two figures: 390 years (or 150, depending on the text) and 40 years. Mike’s favored explanation does not explain why two different numbers are given here, though considering Hebrew history / mythology, it seems like it would be referring to the separate kingdoms of Israel and Judah — not a combined period of time.

    So Mike adds the numbers together (just because) and comes up with 430 years. That does no good to anyone because it doesn’t point to much of anything significant. So let’s subtract 70 years, not because this text tells us to, but because several other prophets talk about 70 being significant.

    This leaves us with 360 years, which still doesn’t do us any good. So now let’s look all the way back in Leviticus and multiply these 360 years by 7. This gets us closer to Israel’s restoration as a country, but it’s not just right. So let’s use some passages in Daniel and Revelation that refer to months as 30 days (just as we refer to them today), and pretend that this means we should recalculate these 2,520 years to 360-day years, then divide that by a real year (365 days), which finally gives us a number we can use!

    It’s simple, and I’m sure anyone could have figured this out without having to wait until 1948 or 1967.

    However, if these years are based on 360-day years instead of 365-day years, then we obviously should have corrected those numbers before we ever started subtracting or multiplying anything else. So let’s correct things real quick:

    430 years x 360 days = 154,800 days
    154,800 days / 365.25 days = 423.82 years

    We’ll go with Mike’s explanation and say that 7 should not be applied to the first 70 years. You know, good figs and all that. So…

    423.82 years – 70 years = 353.82 years
    353.82 years x 7 = 2,476.74 years

    Let’s just go ahead and use Mike’s years too:

    606 BCE – 70 = 536 BCE
    -536 + 2,476.74 + 1 (no year 0) = 1941 or 1942 CE

    How strange that the 360-day year that Ezekiel must have been using, doesn’t work out when figured correctly. I mean, does it make sense that 70 of those years were 365-day years and the rest were 360-day years?

    Don’t worry, our litmus test is this: pick the dates that you need to match and work backwards. Because a divinely-inspired text would work just like this.

    Like

  57. Thank you, John! Your posts and comments are always so well thought out, so a comment like that from you is high praise indeed.

    Like

  58. “It’s funny that you posted that video. I was telling someone the other day how much Mike reminded me of that scene!”

    I love it! When you are reduced to start joining in with Ron’s videos you can tell how desperate you have become. I’ve seen your hand waving on some of the others as well. I liked the link to wikiepedia with the 90% fence and the escape hatch that unless all prophecies are fulfilled none of them can be. Thats really unbiased and just looking to um find the truth

    Lol and we have just begun with fulfilled prophecies. Can’t wait to get to the medo persian hack job article debunking by actually looking at the text. Till didn’t tell you everything Nate. If you had done fuller research than relying on Till you might have spared your family some grief

    Like

  59. “Ezekiel gives two figures: 390 years (or 150, depending on the text) and 40 years. Mike’s favored explanation does not explain why two different numbers are given here, though considering Hebrew history /”

    yawn repetition isn’t going to make the point stronger … Keep trying my boy. Nothing you say will change the fact that in the ezek 4 text the days Zeke lies there is 430 consecutive days. Till can say whatever he likes (well not anymore I mean ). Might as well argue why the sky is blue on a clear day. So alas fibbing does not work because the text says he’s out there 430 days not me. Case closed

    “This leaves us with 360 years, which still doesn’t do us any good. So now let’s look all the way back in Leviticus and multiply these 360 years by 7.”

    Yeah baby as required by the law of moses no less. Torah if you didn’t know. Jews always have to follow the torah. Its where the rules of punishment and blessings for sin are defined. Sorry if Till didn’t tell you

    Like

  60. “However, if these years are based on 360-day years instead of 365-day years, then we obviously should have corrected those numbers before we ever started subtracting or multiplying anything else.

    430 years x 360 days = 154,800 days
    154,800 days / 365.25 days = 423.82 years”

    ROFL You silly person you :). Why would we need to change much less obviously need to change the calendar in Ezek 4?

    Ezekiel 4 is a prophecy in and of itself and so the years to use would already be in the 360 day format as the number to multiply by 7.

    Thats like claiming the 70 weeks of daniel has to be converted to 69 weeks. LOL. Do you ever think things through? or do you just assume its the bible so hey I don’t have to engage my brain for an alternative to my assumptions?

    So your whole post based on your desperate assumption is for nought. As a prophecy in regard to the future punishment it would already be the 360 day calendar base- Simpler to specify a day in the future needing no Intercalation (it only needs be converted to specify a time within our calendar). Just count off the days.

    Plus your posts betrays your rhetoric that nothing more be need said by you on it because it was supposedly all worthless. The time you spent trying to float that wrong assumption says otherwise.

    As far as the date of the return or the month of 606 bc We know only the year and not the months. Your error about the first year of cyrus has previously been corrected since it does not tell us anything in reference to when in his first year. Thankfully and to your chagrin the actual time of the return is not necessary for this prophecy. You just simply use the numbers provided and they work out to 1948 fine

    You can whine and hand wave about the 360 day year all you want. Revelations is not unrelated to daniel but builds and interprets it and there is a clear 360 day year which when applied in Daniel lands up at the time of Christ.

    S0 the the three dates – the time of Christ, 1948 and 1967 corroborate each other. the same system sets the three dates.. EZ peazy

    Like

  61. If it was already in 360-day years, then there was no need to convert them in your calculations, which means the prophecy (even if you still multiply by 7 and start with 606 BCE) comes out to 1985.

    Like

  62. Hey Nate,

    You were right in your previous comment about the 70 years. I noticed the other day that “70” was subtracted from 606 BCE in the calculations from that website you linked to in your original post, which means that they treated the 70 as normal years as we all understand them.

    Mike did mention in a comment that it was actually 69 normal years, so another option is to subtract 69 from 606, which will get to 1947. Instead of responding to your correction all I was able to see from Mike’s last comment was the usual foam and spittle of character belittlement.

    To me that issue is small potatoes when looking at the whole picture, but it’s just another indication of what’s going on. This looks very much like a back calculation to get to the year of interest after the fact. Unrelated passages from the bible are grabbed to come up with numbers that can be munged together to get to the goal. Also, there is no prophecy in the bible saying that any portion of Ezekiel’s periods are to fall under the judgment of the x7 Leviticus passage, so it’s really a speculative prophecy added to the bible. These kind of back calculations to reach a set goal are more numerous than I had thought back in my college days when I was so impressed with Daniel 9 – other religions have them too.

    Like

  63. “If it was already in 360-day years, then there was no need to convert them in your calculations, which means the prophecy (even if you still multiply by 7 and start with 606 BCE) comes out to 1985.”

    Wow. You really do just read Till. Your lost. You multiple by 360 to get the amount of days involved so you can convert to our calendar. However if you are subtracting years in the same calendar you obviously don’t convert them. Simple.

    Like

  64. “Mike did mention in a comment that it was actually 69 normal years, so another option is to subtract 69 from 606, which will get to 1947. Instead of responding to your correction all I was able to see from Mike’s last comment”

    Then I would suggest a pair of glasses Howie

    “As far as the date of the return or the month of 606 bc We know only the year and not the months. Your error about the first year of cyrus has previously been corrected since it does not tell us anything in reference to when in his first year.

    See? I said before we don’t have the months for either. june 2012 to December 2013 is the next calendar year but over a year in time. the difference between a 365 day year calendar and a 360 day calendar over a 70 year period is not sufficient to demand a calendar year change.

    “so, there is no prophecy in the bible saying that any portion of Ezekiel’s periods are to fall under the judgment of the x7 Leviticus passage, so it’s really a speculative prophecy added to the bible. ”

    Howie you just don’t know what you are talking about. Leviticus 26 is part of God’s covenant with Israel. The section is called the Torah which Jew’s view as more binding and important than any prophetical book. Everything in regard to sin and punishment is bound and dictated in Jewish law by the torah. Ezekiel 4 specifies the number of years of sin and Leviticus 26 indicates that any punishment must be multiplied by 7 provided previous actions have not resulted in repentance. Strictly speaking the only thing Ezek provides us with is the number of years. the multiplication is demanded in the torah. case closed on that issue.

    “These kind of back calculations to reach a set goal are more numerous than I had thought back in my college days when I was so impressed with Daniel 9 – other religions have them too.”

    Then you got duped. Nate tried the same argument when we discussed Daniel 9 claiming that you can choose any date that fits after the fact. Thats just a bare faced lie made up by skeptics. In Daniel you are EXTREMELY limited to the dates you can look at as they MUST be dates of orders that have to do with rebuilding Jerusalem and there are only a couple. As it turns out picking the ONLY ONE of those orders that actually gets the city rebuilt you come to the time of Christ. its actually Nate and skeptics trying to fudge out of the most appropriate date because they don’t like where the results lead

    Of course the contention there again is the 360 day year but you all can whine as long as you want. The odds of using ANY calendar cited in the Bible AND USED in Babylon and coming to these date is statistically significant. The beg that using these calendars would result in season problems ignores the fact that not all calendars used are used for agriculture. to this day we use a 360 calendar in financial applications and there is no doubt whatsoever that babylon also had a 360 day calendar

    It only gets MORE statistically significant when using the same numbers of 70 etc used in Daniel 9, and then for the return of Jewish rule over Israel and then the Retaking of Jerusalem all work out to the dates. Like it or not they corroborate each other. Lie till the cows come home the number are provided in the biblical text.

    This isn’t about your opinions, whining or barfing whether you disagree or not . This is about mathematical statistical significance that doesn’t bend to what you think and you don’t get to vote on.

    Like

  65. Did anyone use the calculations and numbers of years to arrive at 1948 and 1967 respectively before the events which are a supposed fulfillment of prophecy happened? Anytime after the shift from B.C. to A.D.?

    Like

  66. “These kind of back calculations to reach a set goal are more numerous than I had thought back in my college days when I was so impressed with Daniel 9 – other religions have them too.”

    Howie, what other religions have these? Can you give some specific examples? I am interested in hearing more about this. Thanks!

    Like

  67. Bluntbelief: The Baha’i believe there are several prophecies from different religions for the year of the “manifestation of the Bab”. You can find them in several links on this page: http://bci.org/prophecy-fulfilled/

    Here’s another Buddhist one: http://www.maitreya.org/english/PZoroaster-Judaism.htm

    And then there’s the many mathematical “miracles” of the Quran. Here’s just one: http://www.eholyquran.com/Quran/LinksPrime/MathematicalMiraclesOfQuran.htm
    A google search will get you more of these Quranic miracles – some of them related to the count of related words in the Quran matching up, or passages which predict big events of history (like the moon landing for example).

    Back when I was a Christian the whole Bible Code became popular after the Witztum, Rips and Rosenberg paper came out. You may have heard about it – hidden messages found in the bible that foretold many big events in history.

    Of course then there’s the stuff like the characters of Bill Gates’ name adding up to 666, or the 9/11 e-mail that linked a whole bunch of related events surrounding the attacks to the numbers 9 and 11. Things like this float around every once in a while, and I usually just file them into my Trash box.

    And it’s all too common to hear the language of “statistically significant”, “miraculous”, “undeniable”, “amazing” with all of these kinds of claims.

    All of these different things have their issues just like the one of the original post, but they show how with a bit of effort and maneuvering it isn’t too hard to generate things which appear miraculous to some.

    Like

  68. …it isn’t too hard to generate things which appear miraculous to some.

    And especially for those who have never taken a stats course. All you have to do is ask: how did you derive the statistical probability of your claim……

    Like

  69. “Of course then there’s the stuff like the characters of Bill Gates’ name adding up to 666, or the 9/11 e-mail that linked a whole bunch of related events surrounding the attacks to the numbers 9 and 11.”

    Yawn……Nice try. This has nothing to do with bible codes or gematria which is what you are referring to…….lol. These are all numbers on the surface text that are specifically called to be multiplied in a prophecy and in the law of Israel and specifically relates to a particular event. Thanks for the links because not one of them have anything approaching the specificity of this calculation tied to historical dates. it shows that you were just fudging.

    Take Daniel 9. There is nothing adhoc or after the fact in that passage. its states clearly its 70 to be multiplied by seven and it gives a particular start date from a word or decree to rebuild Jerusalem. Despite Nate’s bare faced lying you cannot pick any date . it has to be a date where there is a decree or command to rebuild and restore Jersualem.

    Daniel 9:24-26 (KJV)
    24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
    25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
    26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

    There are only about two or three possible dates and of all of them the only one that actually results in the City being rebuilt in Nehemiah is the one that leads to the time of Christ. Its not the Bible believer that tries to fudge the passage its the skeptic that tries to fudge away from the passage.

    Further Daniel 9 is very clear that its dealing with the SAME seventy year period of captivity that is subtracted in this calculation. In the Hebrew its very clear that this time period is to be cut off from the rest of time and separated because that is the literal meaning of the word “determined” in verse 24 – cut off

    Go ahead instead of linking to a page you claim contains calculations and end points similar in specificity – present one that actually does.

    P.S. Its all just lazy “logic” to say oh this person, religion, group says something simlar so this is no different. if you are one that is dedicated to…ahem… finding truth you deal with it case by case.

    Like

  70. “All of these different things have their issues just like the one of the original post, but they show how with a bit of effort and maneuvering it isn’t too hard to generate things which appear miraculous to some.”

    then go ahead bro. Put one up. You linked to this

    http://www.eholyquran.com/Quran/LinksPrime/MathematicalMiraclesOfQuran.htm

    but thats numerology

    You linked to this

    http://www.maitreya.org/english/PZoroaster-Judaism.htm

    But the fulfillment date is just when someone is alleged to receive some personal revelations not a hard historical event such as the founding of a nation or the reclaiming of a city as in 1967.

    You cite this

    http://bci.org/prophecy-fulfilled/

    With about 40 links but don’t specify what you are talking about which is rather convenient.

    Put up one that matches this calculation or you are just blowing smoke.

    Like

  71. No worries Bluntbelief – misunderstandings are very common, and no reason for anyone to feel at fault or apologize.

    Like

  72. “And especially for those who have never taken a stats course. All you have to do is ask: how did you derive the statistical probability of your claim……”

    laughable nonsense. You apparently never took a stats course yourself then. When you have the selection of a number out of a range of numbers (in this case dates) theres nothing hard about it. This is actually elementary stats. As a baseline and for ease you could pick even a range 50 years beyond 1967 at 1 in 3.000. The odds would only go up from there based on the chance of Israel ever returning as a nation or reclaiming a city with every century that passes since historically the longer a people are separated from their land the less likely they are to reclaim it or even survive as a distinct group. Since Jerusalem was destroyed in AD 70 you have a nearly 2,000 year absence from the land – unprecedented.

    Then to that you add the fact that the land a mostly arid region historically must then make a radical change after their return so they become a major agricultural state filling the earth with fruit (Israel is Major supplier of produce to Europe) without any technology to do so at the time of the prophecy and in the presence of enemies all around (also prophecied which should have precluded them from being able to retake the land to begin with)

    Nates favorite research resource

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture_in_Israel

    then we can adjust the statistics upward for the fact that even the setup of the 1967 war is foreshadowed in the Bible

    Zechariah 12:2-3 (KJV)
    2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
    3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

    Interesting since the six day war started with nations around them surrounding the new state and at the time of the writing no one seiged a city that had no bars and gates. (walls stopped being used completely in world war 1 as a defense system and Ezek prophesies thy would not be used throughout the whole land)

    and we’d just be getting started 🙂 because I don’t do just one prophecy when I discuss prophecy evidence. NEVER

    Again Nate LIED when he said he had been told that an excellent example of prophecy was this calculation. He asked for evidence and i began to present a wide range of evidences because I do not present as his hack piece alleges one example any time I debate the evidence from prophecy. Instead of presenting one tree I present a forrest.

    its pretty obvious what happened with Nate here. He saw that Till attempted to deal with the 1948 portion of this biblical calculation, had no intention whatsoever of listening to the answer to the question HE HAD ASKED of me and ran to write a piece that doesn’t even cover the whole thing. He leaves out the 1967 part because Till ducked from it or was unaware of it and he tries to slice out the calculation in isolation of our discussion that was to be about all the prophetic evidence to write his typical Till and Wiki only researched hack job article.

    What can I say? 🙂 its true. I have zero respect for such antics or anyone who acts like that.

    “We are not afraid to follow truth wherever it leads”

    really? because to me that line above and this kind of dishonest approach to a discussion doesn’t show a whole lot more progress than concocting a lie to a church and delivering it to them with a straight face.

    Like

  73. Sorry to be a spoiler, Howie. :/

    As I read the article I thought of all the people who have been in the news because they either quit or lost their jobs rather than take an employee number of 666(or as part of it). And the number of times, as an accountant, I’ve seen people alter numbers to 667 or 665 if they were truly 666. All for what? Fear of some imaginary number?

    Like

  74. And, Howie, how many of them would be completely freaked out that they have unwittingly been perfectly willing to use the number 616? 😕

    Like

  75. Ruth, reminds a little of recently having to explain to our kids why the hotels we stayed at didn’t have a 13th floor – they both thought it was pretty silly.

    Like

  76. “Again Nate LIED when he said he had been told that an excellent example of prophecy was this calculation. He asked for evidence and i began to present a wide range of evidences because I do not present as his hack piece alleges one example any time I debate the evidence from prophecy. Instead of presenting one tree I present a forrest.” – mike

    so, you posted this formula as supporting evidence for the passage you claim is grand evidence of a clearly fulfilled prophecy, but now you’re saying he “lied” because it turns out to be stupid?

    He may have misinterpreted your use of it, but why give poor evidence for something you’ve been saying is so clear, and such a great example, if you didn’t think it was an “excellent example?”

    So nate “lied”… what should he have said? That you thought it was a “good enough example” or a “dumb, but all i have example?”

    I don’t think it’s so much that nate lied as it is a case of you being an idiot – a position you find yourself in often.

    Really, I dont have the stomach to hang with this for extended periods anymore… I’ll go away again until until my nausea passes.

    Like

  77. “so, you posted this formula as supporting evidence for the passage you claim is grand evidence of a clearly fulfilled prophecy, but now you’re saying he “lied” because it turns out to be stupid?”

    Alas something is not stupid merely because you too daft to do simple maths otherwise well …..everything would be stupid. 🙂

    Further You are just as much a liar as he is. I never claimed one piece of clearly fulfilled prophecy is grand evidence.

    go ahead thou liar – give me the quote you are quoting me from saying “grand evidence”. Heres your shining moment. present the quote. Your reply will either be a fudge or crickets

    Truth is you can twist yourselves out of any singular prophecy. I’m well aware of that. This isn’t my first rodeo with atheists and thats particularly why i don’t deal with just one as a “grand evidence” as you just lied to back up Nate’s insinuation.

    I ALWAYS draw a cumulative picture when I present prophecy and I announced very clearly that to Nate and told him upfront I would call him on it if he did what he did. If the Bible considered one prophecy to be grand evidence then it would have just one or two.

    Furthermore HE DID NOT EVEN DEAL WITH ALL of the calculation either. Only the part that TIll covered for him. So he presented HALF the case which no matter your claims is a FLAT OUT DISHONEST way to deal with ANY issue. You show again you can’t grasp basic things so you should go sit in the corner when the adults are talking.

    “Really, I dont have the stomach to hang with this for extended periods anymore… I’ll go away again until until my nausea passes.

    Good alas when the Nausea passes the same lack of common sense is still there with you so it makes no difference.

    Like

  78. This is what you said, Mike:

    If you promise to not merely handwave. Game on. Up to this point I have mostly discussed and rebutted your contradiction points but its perhaps time for me to move beyond that. Since I keep hearing there is no evidence. We have previously discussed Daniels 7O week prophecy and the 360 day year. There is another biblical calculation that corroborates that as explained here

    http://www.alphanewsdaily.com/mathprophecy2.html

    I would be interested regardless of your interpretation what you think the odds are that the same biblical numbers (and there is zero doubt that Revelations includes a 360 day year and daniel indicates a 70 weeks is to be cut out of something) when using a multiplication and numbers called for in the surface text of the Bible (no gematria or Bible codes) would come to the years of 1948 and 1967

    Then we can discuss a series of prophecies related to the return of Israel all of which clearly happened after the Bible was written

    If you don’t think this is a good example, why is it the first one you provided? Then, a couple of comments later, you posted this:

    I am indebted to a local brother, David Marks for two more I have never seen anyone talk about

    Israel in the last days having no cities with city walls as protection (unheard of in Biblical times)

    Ezekiel 38:11 (Darby)
    11 and thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will come to them that are in quiet, that dwell in safety, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,

    Israel having to take some area in the future related to the Gaza strip In Isaiah 11:14

    Theres more but those are enough to munch on now with Kathy’s list

    I haven’t created a new post for these, but I did answer you later in that thread. At the beginning of this post I said “I was recently told that an excellent example of prophecy fulfillment…” While I added the word “excellent,” it was based on my assumption that you wouldn’t provide a prophecy as evidence unless you thought it was really good and clear evidence — “excellent” evidence, in other words. Apparently, you don’t think that. And after examining the prophecy, I can see why.

    Like

  79. “Further You are just as much a liar as he is. I never claimed one piece of clearly fulfilled prophecy is grand evidence.” – mike

    I didnt read past this… I’m feeling sick again

    Mike, you had said there were evidences, we asked for those evidences and you provided a few prophecies – this one being one of them. Now, if you didnt think they were good examples of evidences, then why provide these when evidences is what we were asking for?

    This is stupid. there’s just no nice way to put it. And here you are again, defending the formula as if you think there’s merit to it. So, for clarity’s sake, is the passage a good example of evince for the bible, and is the formula that you provided and good explanation for interpreting this passage?

    if either of these answers is a “no” then it was stupid to provide them and only confused the issue. If either of these is a “yes” then you were a liar or an idiot to say that nate had lied.

    i seriously had once thought that this was an act of yours, but now I’m not sure, and leaning toward very real and serious mental limitations on your end. I feel like i’m trying to explain walking to fish whenever i engage with you…

    Like

  80. “Why not put up everything like an honest person eh Nate? Like what I was responding to

    “How about providing some of the evidence you were talking to William about? Like fulfilled prophecies, etc” -Nate

    “If you promise to not merely handwave. Game on. Up to this point I have mostly discussed and rebutted your contradiction points but its perhaps time for me to move beyond that.” Mike

    and what I said in the same post you left out

    “Then we can discuss a series of prophecies related to the return of Israel all of which clearly happened after the Bible was written”

    Nice try but the contexts indicates in your own words you were asking about prophecies plural and i stated i would be presenting a series of prophecies not harping on one.

    if that were not enough I told you in the same thread before you did your hack piece

    “Just caught this wording Nate and let me tell you up front. If you put that claim up in a post I will call you out as straight forward up and up lying. that “think Mike said” was all your fabrication. When I present fulfilled prophecies I never put one up as the “biggest example” I show the wide rang of prophecies. When you present a case you offer the whole case not one piece. It makes it harder for the defense or in this case skeptics such as yourself to deal with the whole forest over one tree.”

    EZ Peazy but you went ahead anyway so I’m making good on my calling you out on it – Thats dishonest

    “If you don’t think this is a good example, why is it the first one you provided?.”

    Yawn…. your rhetoric after being caught in your characteristic dishonesty matters little to me Nate. I don’t think anything is bad or weak in it. Of course I would provide multiple good prophecies if I said a series of prophecies and I also despite your spin have no problem with this one. its pretty good especially tied in with Daniel 9 – Sorry rhetoric rebutted. No Your obvious dishonesty comes down to two things and two things only

    A) You lied pretending as if I had presented one singular prophecy as an example when you even now admit I hadn’t specified one but was presening a range of them as you yoursef had requested. Your posts hides that from readeers. Its how your piece reads and you know it. Trying to fudge one out of them because Till wrote about it IS dishonest but thats par for the course with you.

    B) You didn’t examine the whole prophecy. YOu are lyng again. Your source material links PROVE it. Your only source outside of WIki doesn’t cover 1967. You flubbed half of it and I can see why because the second part you left out doesn’t rely on any disputed date so you and till left 1967 out almost entirely.

    When confronted with this FACT you claimed that my case got weaker when in fact probably your only half decent objection is rendered irrelevant by the restoration of Jerusalem to Jewish rule because it doesn’t rely on 606 bc. You made sure to leave that out entirely. tsk tsk

    So not only did I not point to merely one prophecy as a great example but you took the one calculation and subtracted what you and til wanted from it.

    and thats why you are a dishonest soul.

    Like

  81. William you are a bonafide nit. i have proven it on too many occasion which is why I read less of you than anyone else. I certainly didn’t read though your last post so keeping on talking to the wind.

    Like

  82. “I haven’t created a new post for these, but I did answer you later in that thread. ”

    Yes you linked to a wiki article to claim that what your own source says is 90% fence is actually a city wall and you suggested that if every prophecy is not fulfilled then none of it is.

    Stellar 🙂

    Like

  83. Mike, I never said that you only listed one prophecy. But I can only deal with one of them at a time. This was the first one you posted, so it’s the first one I dealt with. And considering its complexity, I didn’t want to do it in a comment.

    Of course, these aren’t real objections anyway. This is your typical tactic of driving attention away from the real discussion, since the evidence doesn’t favor your position. I’m sorry you’re so continually left in that situation — maybe you should consider finding a new point of view?

    Like

  84. I’ve said before that I wasn’t avoiding the 1967 part of the “fulfillment.” But since it relies on the same math formulas, I didn’t see the need to restate all the same points about the problems in that view.

    Like

  85. Curious, Mike… if, as you claim, this prophecy is so amazingly clear, why didn’t a single soul before the 1940’s arrive at the dates you have? More than 80 generations have passed since the penning of this “prophecy” (66 generations since the advent of the Julian Calendar, and nearly 9 since the adoption of the Gregorian calendar), yet it seems absolutely no one “worked it out” until after the event….

    Care to explain….

    Like

  86. “Nice try but the contexts indicates in your own words you were asking about prophecies plural and i stated i would be presenting a series of prophecies not harping on one.” – mike

    Youre a moron. “Nice try?” No one is trying to mislead anyone here but you. nate said he’d reply to one of them in this post.

    and what difference does it make? If your prophecies are such grandiose examples of biblical inerrantcy, then why get upset and act if they all hinge off one another? You’re making noise and making yourself look silly. it’s pathetic. stop it.

    so fine, this prophecy isn’t your “biggest example” but you did put it us an example – and it’s a poor one.

    Like

  87. @ JZ,

    Curious, Mike… if, as you claim, this prophecy is so amazingly clear, why didn’t a single soul before the 1940′s arrive at the dates you have? More than 80 generations have passed since the penning of this “prophecy” (66 generations since the advent of the Julian Calendar, and nearly 9 since the adoption of the Gregorian calendar), yet it seems absolutely no one “worked it out” until after the event….

    Care to explain….

    Thank you for answering my question. I left it here a couple of days ago asking if anyone between the advent of A.D. and 1947 had predicted the 1948 date. I don’t think the date would matter because one could always work their way back into the prophecy and claim it’s fulfillment.

    Like

  88. No worries, JZ. I think he might be too busy arguing with William, Nate, Howie, and you to notice my tiny question. 😉

    Like

  89. “Of course, these aren’t real objections anyway. This is your typical tactic of driving attention away from the real discussion, since the evidence doesn’t favor your position.”

    Yawn… your usual empty rhetoric. I’ve made it abundantly clear on this blog that as far as I am concerned logic will be the arbiter of what the evidence is said to favor not you and yours From that point it favors me fine.

    You are right there is no objection but that would be on your part. Observe.

    the 360 day year IS in the Bible and is a calendar used in Babylon where the captivity took place – FACT – No logical objection

    The date of 606 bc is indicated in the text and even your own skeptic sites states the third year of Jehoikim is that year – your claim Daniel was wrong based on the text of the bible was a flop. Your claim that Neb was not king yet is a flop as well because he was operating military campaigns LONG before he took the throne officially.

    and the date of Jerusalem destruction is not reliant on the 606 bc date – so no logical objection to that part you left out

    theres no doubt in Leviticus the Hebrew translates as seven time or seven – no logical objection

    Finally theres the seventy years subtraction and Daniel indicates that 70 year is to be cut off of time. – A passage that is ENTIRELY about the captivity and the multiplication of that time – no logical objection

    So again what do you have left except the hand waving claim that ooooh its just too complicated and ad hoc – when in fact these things are not a matter of convenience but Jewish law that states by covenant it MUST be multiplied by seven.

    Try again nate or at least show a spackling of honesty and write a full piece. Your excuses for leaving out half of what this is about are sad.

    Like

  90. “I’ve said before that I wasn’t avoiding the 1967 part of the “fulfillment.” But since it relies on the same math formulas, I didn’t see the need to restate all the same points about the problems in that ”

    You are full of nonsense. It is a completely different calculation that corroborates the first one and it is based on entirely different date and your objection to the 606 bc is left up as if it applies to both which we both know is garbage.

    Like

  91. “Curious, Mike… if, as you claim, this prophecy is so amazingly clear, why didn’t a single soul before the 1940′s arrive at the dates you have? More than 80 generations have passed since the penning of this “prophecy” (66 generations since the advent of the Julian Calendar, and nearly 9 since the adoption of the Gregorian calendar), yet it seems absolutely no one “worked it out” until after the event….”

    neither you nor I know that so you are fudging to say they didn’t and i would be fudging to say they did. to be honest I don’t know who first i figured that out. Way before my time. I’d be surprised if no jew did but I have never done exhaustive research to see who got it first..

    That said if I wrote you a note about what was going to happen to one of your children and you didn’t read it closely and even forgot it then opened it up and realized it had nailed everything that had happened to your children how would not reading before have made a difference to the fact it states what it does? if it involved legit calculations in its predictions and the calculations worked out based on your childs age at different juncture it still would be significant.

    Even in science we have found significant patterns after the fact (the periodic table) so whether anyone realized it or not if the numbers are legit and the multiplications and techniques are called for then the significance remains. In the church we’ve had people for centuries forget the teaching of saved by Grace through faith and it couldn’t be more clearly in there. So again I presently don’t have that info

    So I don’t kow that your claim is true. I’ve never had time to do much research in Jewish books but they have some fascinating stuff

    Like

  92. I’m going to make this as clear as possible.

    1. The 606 BCE date does not match with any historical source, including every book of the Bible except Daniel. Daniel is the only place that says 606 BCE, and it’s notorious for its historical inaccuracies. But even if we accept 606 BCE, that still doesn’t get 70 years. Ezra 1:1 is clear that Cyrus gave his decree in his 1st year, which was 539 BCE. Even if we give an extra year, just in case, that puts us at 68 years, not 70.
    2. In Daniel 9, Daniel talks about the 70 years that Jeremiah had prophesied, but then Gabriel comes and tells him that they are serving 70 weeks of years, not 70 years. There’s nothing that says 70 years will be subtracted, or anything like that. Daniel changes the meaning of Jeremiah’s prophecy completely. So your claim that 70 years should be subtracted from this prophecy has no basis.
    3. Your reasoning for claiming that Ezekiel was talking about 360-day years is very weak, considering you borrow it from Daniel and Revelation, and even there it doesn’t say that all prophecies are to be understood this way. Those passages only indicate that they rounded months off to 30 days, which we still do today. Doesn’t mean people view a year as 360 days long.
    4. Even worse, if you were right about the 360-day thing, then recalibrating what Ezekiel means by “year” should have been the first thing you did. But of course, if you do it that way, you don’t get to 1948 or 1967. 😦
    5. Multiplying by 7 is borrowed from Leviticus, but for all you know, God had already accounted for that when he gave Ezekiel these specific years. So it’s still hard to say that Ezekiel is talking about anything other than 390 years (or 150) and 40 years.
    6. And once again, you don’t multiply the first 70 years by 7 because that also messes up your calculation. Nor do you treat the 390 and 40 periods separately, since that messes you up too.
    7. Finally, there are 19 years between 606 BCE and 587 BCE. There are also 19 years between 1948 and 1967. That’s the only reason your numbers are able to hit both dates. If there’s anything significant about any of this it’s that those two dates happen to have 19 years between them. But before we go reading too much into that, we have to remember that 606 BCE is a very suspect date in the first place. Nothing of real significance actually happened to Judah that year, according to contemporary sources, which means there isn’t actually 19 years between the first set of dates. Also, if God’s hand were in this, why would there be 19 years between these events, instead of a number that has more significance to Jewish history / mythology, like 40?

    The mathematical formulas required to make these dates work out have every appearance of being manipulations made after the fact. It’s hard to believe God would have to resort to such gymnastics in order to “fulfill” a prophecy. He’s “not the author of confusion” after all…

    Like

  93. It’s also interesting to note that a number of Christians don’t even agree that this passage is a prophecy at all, but is referring to things in Israel’s and Judah’s pasts.

    So very clear…

    Like

  94. god requires 3 things from all of his disciples:

    1) the willingness to believe in a book of claims written, packaged and delivered by men, while also willing to say “we aught to obey god rather than man.”

    2) and advanced degree in theoretical calculus in order to make any obscure prophecy “work out”

    3) mike, in order to shepherd every would be believer into the correct understanding of #1 and #2.

    The plan of salvation.

    Like

  95. “I’m going to make this as clear as possible.”

    Great lets see if you did any better

    “Cyrus gave his decree in his 1st year, which was 539 BCE. Even if we give an extra year, just in case, that puts us at 68 years, not 70.”

    Sorry Nate. you depend too much on Till for everything. Multiple sources state 538 – even your beloved Wikipedia states that

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/538_BC

    So if you give it an exta year thats 537 and 69 years which is 70 360 day years

    Now let me be clear with more precision

    360 days x 70 years = 25,200 days.
    =68.99 years in our calendar

    I’ll round it to 69 years

    and that carries to 537 bc from 606 bc. From there there are 907,200 days

    How? 360 years of 360 days times 7

    converted to our calendar = 1947.77

    1947.77 problem? not 1948? Nope that date would be accurate only for events that start off on the first day of the year. Summer time would add at least another .5 to the above and thats…. you got it 1948

    Ez peazy. Simple as apple pie. Of course no one knows days and months for sure but any date within a year of 1948 would be accurate.

    “There’s nothing that says 70 years will be subtracted, or anything like that. Daniel changes the meaning of Jeremiah’s prophecy completely.”

    No he doesn’t thats just your desperate begging. the 70 years is the same in jeremiah and in Daniel. Thers just another calculation mutiplied by seven that is taken from that 70.

    “So your claim that 70 years should be subtracted from this prophecy has no basis.”

    The fact that you don’t know Hebrew or don’t even try to consult the original langauges always comes up and bites you in the rear Nate. the word “determined” literally means – to cut off. So the 70 years are cut off from the rest of time. If you don’t understand something then ask.

    “Your reasoning for claiming that Ezekiel was talking about 360-day years is very weak, considering you borrow it from Daniel and Revelation,”

    Rhetoric is always cleary rhetoric. Its a calendar both used in the Bible and in Babylon where the captivity took place . This is a fact that you can do nothing about. Moo some more the cows are not home yet.

    “even worse, if you were right about the 360-day thing, that recalibrating what Ezekiel means by “year” should have been the first thing you did. But of course, if you do it that way, you don’t get to 1948 or 1967.”

    even worse – after having it explained to you you still don’t get that the 360 day multiplication is to get the days so that you can convert it to our calendar. Conversion is required ONLY when we are converting to our calendar NOT before. Sheesh how can you have studied this and be trying to float this nonsense again.

    “Multiplying by 7 is borrowed from Leviticus, but for all you know, God had already accounted for that when he gave Ezekiel these specific years.”

    Desperation has set in eh nate? “for all you know”? Its in the text that those are the years of their sin. Its not multiplied in Ezek and I suspect you know that too. Zeke does not call for the multiplication of 7 . Thats a requirement of the law.

    ‘And once again, you don’t multiply the first 70 years by 7 because that also messes up your calculation. Nor do you tread the 390 and 40 periods separately, since that messes you up too.”

    Give up that tired silly claim Nate. Till sold you that fudge but the text says after lying on one side Zeke lies on the other side. They are consective 390 and then 40. So Zeke says the days last 430 – every day for a year means 430 years. Sorry nate. Epic fail. Congratulations you have just proven skeptics can do a mean chocolate fudge like what they accuse Christians of. Don’t feel too bad. Till has fooled a lot of people unfortunately straight into hell (and yes they all have had their own culpability)

    “Finally, there are 19 years between 606 BCE and 587 BCE. There are also 19 years between 1948 and 1967. That’s the only reason your numbers are able to hit both dates. If there’s anything significant about any of this it’s that those two dates happen to have 19 years between them. But before we go reading too much into that, we have to remember that 606 BCE is a very suspect date in the first place.”

    Sorry Nate I can see how hard you are trying to fudge it but the date of jerusalem’s destruction is not dependent on the 606 Bc date. The data is independently verifiable. so that whole argument is flat. Go do some more research

    “The mathematical formulas required to make these dates work out have every appearance of being manipulations made after the fact.”

    Your dodging from dealing with the whole thing, including 1967, along with your insistence against the text that the years are not consecutive have every appearance of fudging to get out of the fact that they do work.

    Like

  96. “It’s also interesting to note that a number of Christians don’t even agree that this passage is a prophecy at all, but is referring to things in Israel’s and Judah’s pasts.

    So very clear…”

    Yep so Crystal clear that you don’t have a clue what is being talked about. As I have said before the number one thing Zeke gives us is the years of sin. OF course its referring to Judah’s past. Its the law in leviticus that is the prophecy that it would be multiplied by 7.

    As for the utter nonsense that Ezekiel 4 is not a prophecy at all. Whats this?

    Ezekiel 4:13 (KJV)
    13 And the LORD said, Even thus shall the children of Israel eat their defiled bread among the Gentiles, whither I will drive them.

    reminiscing about the good old days? Or talking about the future?

    Like

  97. So Mike, let’s get this straight: not a single person over some 80 generations “worked out” the “incredibly clear” prophecy… yet, miraculously, people (like yourself) did after some events occurred which they thought marked its fulfillment.

    You know, i really have to wonder why this stuff isn’t taught in real universities…

    Like

  98. “So Mike, let’s get this straight: not a single person over some 80 generations “worked out” the “incredibly clear” prophecy…”

    Lets get this straight instead. All I ever see you post is nonsense and noise. No facts whatsoever, NO?

    Then present your evidence that not a single person over 80 generations worked out this calculation or I tell you what – at the very least tell us how many hours you have spent looking up if anyone had.

    Cause we all know you haven’t done a lick of research to make that claim and if your next post is to say you did then we have yet another liar in this thread

    Me? i don’t know but I do know that you don’t know squat.

    Prove me wrong without cracking your computer screen with a growing nose 🙂

    Like

  99. Mike , how do you feel about fulfilled prophesies in the Quran ? Islam claims at least 14 and none of them require a calculator.

    Like

  100. “Mike , how do you feel about fulfilled prophesies in the Quran ? Islam claims at least 14 and none of them require a calculator.”

    I think its good for you if you still don’t own one. At least until you can drive into town to buy one

    Like

  101. I have owned a Quran for approximately 5 years. My question was simple. Why can’t you just answer it instead of your usual dancing ?

    Like

  102. ” Why can’t you just answer ”

    isn’ that obvious? Because we have had several discussions in which you have demonstrated to me you are a joke. I answer several of your comrades so if you can demonstrate you offer more than they I can change my stance on that. Fair shot

    Can you?

    Like

  103. “Nostradamus had many fulfilled prophesies too. So what makes the bible’s prophesies any more special ?”

    and even if that were the case why would that make the Bible’s false? See? no demonstration of basic logic. You failed and my assessment was right

    have a great day 🙂

    Like

  104. I already have. You’re the joke, not me. I asked you your personal opinion on how you feel about fulfilled prophesies in the Quran.

    There is no right or wrong answer here , Mike. You’re not going to answer a question you feel you haven’t had any power in framing.

    Just more hand waving from you. I get it and everyone here gets it.

    I also asked you what makes bible prophesies any more special than fulfilled prophesies of Nostradamus, the Quran, or Joseph Smith ? This is also a valid question which you would rather berate me than answer the question.

    It’s OK. I would expect nothing less from you.

    Like

  105. “and even if that were the case why would that make the Bible’s false? ”

    In this scenario I’m not saying the Bible’s is false. I’m asking you what makes them any more special or different than fulfilled prophesies of Joseph Smith, Nostradamus, or the Quran ?

    Like

  106. Mike, I’m afraid your information about 538 BCE didn’t actually change anything.

    “Cyrus gave his decree in his 1st year, which was 539 BCE. Even if we give an extra year, just in case, that puts us at 68 years, not 70.”

    Sorry Nate. you depend too much on Till for everything. Multiple sources state 538 – even your beloved Wikipedia states that

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/538_BC

    So if you give it an exta year thats 537 and 69 years which is 70 360 day years

    Cyrus took Babylon in 539 BCE. During his first year, he let the Jews go back. A number of sources say that was in 538 BCE, and I’m sure that’s true. That’s still easily within his first year, especially if he took Babylon toward the end of 539 BCE. But the problem you’re running into is that you’re still wanting to add another year on top of that, and it’s because you’re conflating Babylon’s fall with Cyrus’s decree concerning the Jews.

    Here’s the distinction — 538 does not apply to when Cyrus took Babylon, but when he issued the decree. In other words, nothing changes. You don’t get to add another year just because you need it. You’re still short.

    And there are still two other issues. First, you don’t get to disregard the separation of years that Ezekiel gives. There’s a very specific reason why he breaks them up in to 390 (or 150) and 40. That may be inconvenient for you, but it’s still an issue. Secondly, you still seem to miss the point about the 360-day years. If you’re right that Ezekiel is speaking about 360-day years, then those have to be recalibrated right at the beginning. Removing 70 of them first changes the numbers significantly, but it’s also inconsistent. Ezekiel either meant years the way we always think of them (which is what I think), or he meant 360-day years. And if it’s the latter, as you maintain, then that has be dealt with right at the beginning.

    Your current explanation has Ezekiel using both configurations: 365.25 days for the first 70, and 360 days for the rest. But there’s nothing in the text to make us think we should make that distinction. In fact, there’s nothing in the text that even mentions the number 70. It makes no sense to use both calculations — it’s either one or the other.

    If we go with 365.25-day years (but keep everything else the same), then the prophecy would point to the year 1983.

    If we go with 360-day years, then the prophecy would point to the year 1941 or 1942.

    Like

  107. Mike, this is a problem too:

    The fact that you don’t know Hebrew or don’t even try to consult the original langauges always comes up and bites you in the rear Nate. the word “determined” literally means – to cut off. So the 70 years are cut off from the rest of time. If you don’t understand something then ask.

    Here’s the passage in question (Daniel 9:24, KJV):

    Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

    It’s true that “determined” here literally means “cut off,” but a number of commentaries take this to mean “set aside” by God. The problem for the way you’re using it is that it doesn’t say this about 70 years, but 70 weeks of years. If you’re right that “determined” means “subtracted,” then you’d have to subtract 490 years from Ezekiel’s numbers, which would have him going back in time.

    Like

  108. “Mike, I’m afraid your information about 538 BCE didn’t actually change anything.”

    ROFL… This was worth the dialogue. To see you caught in your own duplicity. No Nate I am afraid you are fudging. I was only using your very own logic. You said this to me only a few hours ago

    “Ezra 1:1 is clear that Cyrus gave his decree in his 1st year, which was 539 BCE. Even if we give an extra year, just in case, that puts us at 68 years, not 70.”-Nate

    The decree was not given in 539 but 538. Now that your numbers have been shown wrong you wish to pull back what you previously allowed

    ” Even if we give an extra year, just in case,”

    and why? well because that would give 69 years and a 70 360 day year which works really well bu t you don’t like it now . Thats duplicitous any way you cut it

    Take a bow

    “and it’s because you’re conflating Babylon’s fall with Cyrus’s decree concerning the Jews.”

    I don’t know what you are trying to pull Nate but Don’t start with more of your lying. I said nothing about Babylon’s fall and neither did that link. If you are trying to convince your flock you are correcting me on something you can stop it right now.

    “Here’s the distinction — 538 does not apply to when Cyrus took Babylon, but when he issued the decree”

    Sigh do tell Nate do tell. thats what the link I gave you said. Do you even read things?

    ” First, you don’t get to disregard the separation of years that Ezekiel gives. There’s a very specific reason why he breaks them up in to 390 (or 150) and 40. That may be inconvenient
    for you, but it’s still an issue”

    Sorry it you that don’t get to beg. there is absolutely no issue whatsoever. the passage is clear and unambiguous there are 390 days he lies on one side and then

    Ezekiel 4:6 (KJV)
    6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.

    what part of “when thou has accomplished” don’t you get? You are being silly trying desperately to hold on to your beloved teacher Till’s utter nonsense. How many days is ZEke out there? well its 390 days and then when that is finished its 40 days. thats 430 days each day for a year not some days counting for both. Sorry You don’t get to beg and twist the passage to get what you want. It doesn’t work like that. No fudging.

    “Secondly, you still seem to miss the point about the 360-day years. If you’re right that Ezekiel is speaking about 360-day years, then those have to be recalibrated right at the beginning.”

    recalibrated to what? LOL WOW – its YOU that still don’t and seemingly can’t get it. When you subtract 50 gallons from 100 gallon you do not need to “recalibrate” they are in the same base nate. basic concept. So when a 360 day year is subtracted from a 360 day year there is no recalibration. Ezek IS a prophecy despite your nonsense that it was not one so the numbers are all in the same base 360 days. 70 360 day years subtracted from 430 360 day years. Goodness I don’t know how to break it down any simpler for you.The only time the actual day count has to be used (by multiplying by 360 to get the days) is when its to be factored into our 365.25 day calendar.

    “Your current explanation has Ezekiel using both configurations: 365.25 days for the first 70, and 360 days for the rest.”

    No it doesn’t. You as usual do not know what you are talking about. I even broke it down for you into 360 days in my last post to you. At this point I don’t know whether what I am saying is just flying over your head or if you are hoping repeating the same claim over and over will help you save your dead points

    Like

  109. “It’s true that “determined” here literally means “cut off,” but a number of commentaries take this to mean “set aside” by God. The problem for the way you’re using it is that it doesn’t say this about 70 years, but 70 weeks of years. If you’re right that “determined” means “subtracted,” then you’d have to subtract 490 years from Ezekiel’s numbers, which would have him going back in time.”

    Nate don’t be silly. If you cut off the 70 times 7 from the entire period of time to be multiplied by 7 Its the same as subtracting the 70 and not multiplying by seven. there is no problem the way I am using it. Since Daniel has been praying for forgiveness God tells him the 70 instead of being multiplied in punishment will be redemptive in another action of God. Its good you finally looked up the hebrew though.

    Pretty amazing you have all this time to restate the same things over, look up the hebrew ,double check dates but still not a peep about what actually is the main thing thing in Ezekiel

    what happens to the city of Jerusalem.

    Why would that be nate? the dates fixing the 1967 six day war too solid?

    Like

  110. Mike, by all means, if you know a single person who named the dates “before” they arrived then present this evidence….

    I’ll be waiting….

    Like

  111. “Mike, by all means, if you know a single person who named the dates “before” they arrived then present this evidence….”

    No sonny boy. You are not in prep school now. Your usual laziness will not suffice. You made the statement

    “not a single person over some 80 generations “worked out” the “incredibly clear” prophecy…”

    as an absolute statement of fact. So its time to put on your big boy pants and back it up with some data or proof of the exhaustive research you did.

    Run away from that then your secret is out (not that it was much of one to begin with mind you)

    You would have proven you are a wannabe that doesn’t research anything, makes statements off the top of your head and can be safely unceremoniously ignored in any adult conversation

    Like

  112. @JZ,

    by all means, if you know a single person who named the dates “before” they arrived then present this evidence….

    I’ve googled it every way to Sunday and haven’t been able to find anyone who named the dates before they arrived. I know that’s not the be all, end all, but I haven’t come up with a thing. I’ve come up with lots and lots of sites that say it is a fulfillment, and lots and lots of sites that say it isn’t a fulfillment, but nothing of anyone who pulled a Nostradamus on the dates.

    Like

  113. “I’ve googled it every way to Sunday and haven’t been able to find anyone who named the dates before they arrived.”

    this might come as shock to some but the internets wasn’t around in in the early 1900s much less before 🙂

    Like

  114. they have to do the calculation backwards. they’re forced to start with the end date they want so that they know how many years to multiple by 7, and then figure out what to subtract or to what, etc, etc – then you claim “it’s so clear” then claim “I never said it was excellent evidence” then say, “it’s not the only prophecy I mentioned” then go on to act like it’s excellent evidence.

    and you and kathy keep talking about “objectivity.” I dont think you know what that really means… Much like how kathy uses “liberal” – incorrectly.

    being object is being fair minded, but i think you and kathy use it to mean “having an objective”/ a preconceived conclusion in mind. In that sense, i agree, you’re both quite “objective.”

    again, if you cant even admit that things like john saying jesus was crucified before passover and mark saying he was crucified during can at least look like constrictions to some people, then you are either not honestly objective (in the true meaning) or are just sadly stupid – which ever happens to be case, it really hinders productive conversation.

    Like

  115. Ruth, it’s patently clear that no one ever arrived at the dates or else apologists would be all over it, screaming their names and holding it up as proof. Mike knows the nonsense he’s peddling has been exposed, and now he’s dancing as best as he can to avoid facing the truth.

    Like

  116. Yes, and him questioning the objectivity of others is a joke. People who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones.

    I know the internets weren’t around before the 1940’s. There’s so very much information available on it, though, that was written prior to it’s invention. Just about anything anyone thinks is of some relevance can be found there. It would be quite relevant if someone calculated those dates before the events, would it not?

    Like

  117. LOL you two are a complete joke. 🙂 🙂

    I’ve already stated I don’t know one way or the other so I have no need to dance. You claimed to know for a fact so ahem put it up. Whats so hard? i mean you do make statements of fact only after you have verified something is fact right? Honesty and all that moral stuff you say you believe in? lol

    Further its not an issue that matters that much to me because of what I wrote before which Ruth and yourself just ducked answering. here since you need a refresher –

    “That said if I wrote you a note about what was going to happen to one of your children and you didn’t read it closely and even forgot it then opened it up and realized it had nailed everything that had happened to your children how would not reading before have made a difference to the fact it states what it does? if it involved legit calculations in its predictions and the calculations worked out based on your childs age at different juncture it still would be significant.

    Even in science we have found significant patterns after the fact (the periodic table) so whether anyone realized it or not if the numbers are legit and the multiplications and techniques are called for then the significance remains. In the church we’ve had people for centuries forget the teaching of saved by Grace through faith and it couldn’t be more clearly in there. So again I presently don’t have that info

    So I don’t kow that your claim is true. I’ve never had time to do much research in Jewish books but they have some fascinating stuff”

    So again since YOU claim to know then answer – put on your big boy or big girl pants and give the proof of your claim of fact.

    Or for once in your atheist lives admit to lying because you really don’t know what you claimed to know as fact.

    Like

  118. It’s really quite simple Mike: show us a single person who arrived at the dates “before” they happened. Show us a single person who worked the “ever so clear prophecy” out before the event.

    If you can’t, then just shut up.

    Like

  119. “There’s so very much information available on it, though, that was written prior to it’s invention. Just about anything anyone thinks is of some relevance can be found there.”

    Rubbish. If you think that scholarly research is all done freely on the internet now because everything has been digitized and put up online for public access you have no idea of what you are taking about even when you talk about the internet. Furthermore you know darn well you have not had the time to read through Jewish literature which is thousands of pages so cease from your lying like you have already exhausted reading even what IS available online. You are not fooling anyone.

    I do hope one day to have the time to do that kind of research but it would most likely take many months (and some of it is in Hebrew – read Hebrew now Ruth?). Frankly though I don’t know one way or the other I WOULD be surprised if the people who popularized it recently were the first. No strike against them but even from your wrong perspective of it being contrived I don’t think some of them are sophisticated to have made it up.

    Like

  120. mike, you’re being pathetic. You’re stating something as clear fact, and continue to avoid putting any supporting evidence.

    you’re claiming to know the answer. You claim god wrote the bible because of prophecies like this.

    Like

  121. “It’s really quite simple Mike: show us a single person who arrived at the dates “before” they happened.”

    Sorry Non negotiable. You claimed to know something for a fact so if you don’t own one go borrow a big boy pair of pants and put up YOUR data to back it up.

    You are right – Its really quite simple.

    Like

  122. “Rubbish. If you think that scholarly research is all done freely on the internet now because everything has been digitized and put up online for public access you have no idea of what you are taking about even when you talk about the internet. Furthermore you know darn well you have not had the time to read through Jewish literature which is thousands of pages so cease from your lying like you have already exhausted reading even what IS available online. You are not fooling anyone.

    I do hope one day to have the time to do that kind of research but it would most likely take many months (and some of it is in Hebrew – read Hebrew now Ruth?). Frankly though I don’t know one way or the other I WOULD be surprised if the people who popularized it recently were the first. No strike against them but even from your wrong perspective of it being contrived I don’t think some of them are sophisticated to have made it up.” -mike

    interesting strategy. claim others dont know what they’re talking about because they havent read everything, and then say that you havent read everything either…

    If both of those are your true feelings, maybe you should say something like, “well, i dont know as i am not very educated on the subject. I think you’re wrong, but that’s on my faith and pure conjecture. I encourage you to continue studying the topic, as I will do the same…”

    instead, you opt for the idiot. typical.

    Like

  123. “you’re claiming to know the answer.”

    You must lie for breakfast lunch and dinner sparky

    I am on record on here saying I don’t know who first figured it out. Your pals claim to know the facts on that so they should put it up. simple

    as for not putting up any data in this thread

    ROFL…..

    Like

  124. Furthermore you know darn well you have not had the time to read through Jewish literature which is thousands of pages so cease from your lying like you have already exhausted reading even what IS available online. You are not fooling anyone.

    Wow, did I make that claim? I certainly don’t think so, since I said very plainly that I knew that a google search wasn’t the be all, end all.

    You really do know how to twist words.

    Like

  125. Your pals claim to know the facts….

    This is what I actually said:

    I’ve googled it every way to Sunday and haven’t been able to find anyone who named the dates before they arrived. I know that’s not the be all, end all, but I haven’t come up with a thing. I’ve come up with lots and lots of sites that say it is a fulfillment, and lots and lots of sites that say it isn’t a fulfillment, but nothing of anyone who pulled a Nostradamus on the dates.

    That’s far from making a claim of anything being a fact. Except for the fact that I haven’t found it. I never said it wasn’t there.

    Like

  126. No, William, Mike is right. He didn’t claim to have the answer. He said the answer didn’t really matter. Big difference.

    Like

  127. “Ezra 1:1 is clear that Cyrus gave his decree in his 1st year, which was 539 BCE. Even if we give an extra year, just in case, that puts us at 68 years, not 70.”-Nate

    The decree was not given in 539 but 538. Now that your numbers have been shown wrong you wish to pull back what you previously allowed

    I’m not sure why you’re having trouble with this. Cyrus took Babylon in 539 BCE. Since Ezra says the decree was given in his first year, I said we could “give an extra year,” which means we could assume the decree might have been given in 538 BCE. According to Wikipedia’s sources, 538 seems to be the correct year.

    You’re wanting to give an extra year on top of that, but why? 538 BCE is the year. And since you believe 606 BCE is the starting date (though that’s dubious), that gives us 68 years. But since you’re looking for 70 “prophetic” years, which is 69 regular years, you’re still a year short.

    Like

  128. “You must lie for breakfast lunch and dinner sparky” – mike

    this mistake is mine, but not for being wrong, but for being unclear. I should have more clearly stated that you claim to have the answer other things, but continually dodge providing any real or credible evidence and in some cases, putting up anything at all.

    I just it’s hypocritical to blast someone for something you do as a habit.

    Like

  129. I agree, John. Any proponent of any view, including apologists, look for specific information to bolster their claims. The fulfillment of this prophecy would have been quite significant and anything anyone had to bolster it’s veracity would certainly use it.

    Furthermore, there have been accusations of lying when the truth is that the information being given from the Bible can be interpreted many different ways as is evidenced by the number of different interpretations. If one person interprets the information differently it doesn’t mean they’re lying. It means they’re processing it differently.

    Grandiose statements and proclamations about lying and hypocrisy seem to be the fallback claim of those who can’t handle anyone thinking differently than them. And here I thought God didn’t create robots. Apparently I was wrong about that. He wants us all to think the same.

    Like

  130. “Sorry Non negotiable. You claimed to know something for a fact so if you don’t own one go borrow a big boy pair of pants and put up YOUR data to back it up.” – mike

    so stupid. Someone asked why their hasnt been a formula liek teh one you pointed to as evidence until the 67 or whenever… you said that couldnt be proven.

    now you’re asking for proof that nothing’s there? is that what you’re asking?

    I must have missed something.

    but people are looking for this formula, in an earlier time, and you’re saying that since they cant find that it wasnt used, then maybe it was? you’re using absence of evidence as evidence of presence?

    I missed something, what was it? what was claimed and what is being looked for?

    Like

  131. Ultimately, our dear friend Mike, doesn’t want to be embarrassed. That is his greatest fear, and we must respect that. What he doesn’t understand is that no atheist is going to belittle him when he finally admits the truth. We’re not here to chastise, rather to welcome him home, to the real world.

    Like

  132. “”I’m not sure why you’re having trouble with this. Cyrus took Babylon in 539 BCE. ”

    I’m not having any problems Nate. I am just sitting here smiling to myself watching you trying to squirm out of your own words

    “Ezra 1:1 is clear that Cyrus GAVE HIS DECREE in his 1st year, which was 539 BCE. Even if we give an extra year, just in case, that puts us at 68 years, not 70.”-Nate”

    You can lie all you want. the above words you wrote have reference to the decree and You point blank said that was 539. and then YOU gave a year “to be safe”

    Only when you realized you goofed and the decree was actually a year later and you knew “to be safe” would result in 69 years then ooops you had to retract if because you didn’t like where being “safe” led. 🙂

    Now your pretending like you never said what you said. You are sooo honest Nate. What can I say?

    “And since you believe 606 BCE is the starting date (though that’s dubious), that gives us 68 years. But since you’re looking for 70 “prophetic” years, which is 69 regular years, you’re still a year short.”

    Actually Nate fixing the date of the return isn’t even necessary to the calculation as I have said before. the calculation only requires the start date and the numbers. What you miss is that strictly speaking Cyrus saying you can go back home doesn’t immediately end the desolations caused by the Babylonian conquest. jerusalem is still in ruins and the land is still in ruins. SO all thats really needed is 606 bc. Sorry

    “You’re wanting to give an extra year on top of that, but why? 538 BCE is the year. ”

    538 is the first year of Cyrus and he gives the decree in that year NaTe. Further at this point AGAIN you are showing your total dishonesty. It was YOU that gave the extra year when you thought it was 539. Yep I’ll be posting your own words again (until you stop being so obviously dishonest)

    “Ezra 1:1 is clear that Cyrus GAVE HIS DECREE in his 1st year, which was 539 BCE. Even if we give an extra year, just in case, that puts us at 68 years, not 70.”-Nate

    So YOU gave another year but as soon as that made 69 due to Cyrus first year coinciding with 538 instead of 539 you are asking me why I put an extra year

    PLus I’ve been meaning to tell you that you can stop your lying on the post date fixing as well – as if 606bc is contrived to get to the dates. It really is just TERRIBLE fibbing you do. Its not me or apologist fixing a date. the date of 606 bc is in some commentaries PRE 1948 NATE. 🙂

    Why is that? they were fixing it for a date that had not happened yet?

    Meanwhile AGAIN

    the curious abscence of any talk about the 1967 date from you. You realized the calculation nails it eh Nate? NO issue with dates there you could find.

    Like

  133. Ezra 1:1 is clear that Cyrus GAVE HIS DECREE in his 1st year, which was 539 BCE. Even if we give an extra year, just in case, that puts us at 68 years, not 70.

    Yes, that’s what I said, and I still stand by it. In fact, it’s no different than what I’m saying now. Let’s step through it slowly so you can understand:

    “Ezra 1:1 is clear that Cyrus GAVE HIS DECREE in his 1st year, which was 539 BCE.” This is true. Cyrus took Babylon in 539 BCE. No disagreement.

    “Even if we give an extra year, just in case, that puts us at 68 years, not 70.” Why give it an extra year? Because we don’t know exactly when in 539 BCE Cyrus took Babyon. All we know is that he gave his decree within the first year. So if he took Babylon in October of 539, then he had until October of 538. That’s why I gave an extra year — to get us to 538. As it turns out, the link you provided agrees with me — 538 BCE seems to be the year of the decree.

    Here’s the difference: I was allowing an extra year from the time Cyrus took Babylon (539 BCE). You, on the other hand, want to give an extra year from the time he issued the decree (538 BCE), and there’s a huge difference there.

    And it all boils down to this: between 606 BCE and 538 BCE there are 68 years.

    Like

  134. Btw, I know the 606 BCE date was being used long before 1948, because they get that date from Daniel. But Daniel is not considered reliable by most scholars, and we have contemporary accounts that don’t support the 606 BCE date.

    Like

  135. The bizarre and way over the top twisting to make it look like people lied just keeps continuing. What Nate wrote about 539 was very clear – he said that Cyrus’ first year was 539 and that Ezra was clear that the decree was in Cyrus’ first year (which is 539). Nate allowed for the fact that some people move the decree into 538 (even though that is not Cyrus’ first year) so that was why he allowed the extra year. This is just way too much – really, is there anyone here who believes a productive conversation is possible with all the constant manipulating?

    Like

  136. “Yes, that’s what I said, and I still stand by it.”

    Of course you do nate You will lie , fudge do anything to save face and your rubberstampers will come to attempt to rescue you too (as Howie’s barf suggests)

    The facts are they decree came in 538 not 539

    Despite your incessant fudging you DID say the decree came in 539. You even state it was clear it was in 539

    “Ezra 1:1 is clear that Cyrus GAVE HIS DECREE in his 1st year, which was 539 BCE. Even if we give an extra year, just in case, that puts us at 68 years, not 70.” – Nate

    Now you find out that the decree was really given during a year that intersects with 538 so you add what you never did before

    Heres your original quote with what follows your claim of 539

    “The 606 BCE date does not match with any historical source, including every book of the Bible except Daniel. Daniel is the only place that says 606 BCE, and it’s notorious for its historical inaccuracies. But even if we accept 606 BCE, that still doesn’t get 70 years. Ezra 1:1 is clear that Cyrus gave his decree in his 1st year, which was 539 BCE. Even if we give an extra year, just in case, that puts us at 68 years, not 70.
    In Daniel 9, Daniel talks about the 70 years that Jeremiah had prophesied, but then Gabriel comes and tells him that they are serving 70 weeks of years, not ‘

    thats it from your make it clear passage. See anything about Cyrus taking babyon. It was all about the decree. Sorry nate. Aren’t you the one that state I am fudging after the facts?

    How you can sit there and claim you were right in saying 539 was the year of the decreewhen it wasn’t is beyond me. By all means stand by your statement that the decree was in 539.

    “Here’s the difference: I was allowing an extra year from the time Cyrus took Babylon (539 BCE). You, on the other hand, want to give an extra year from the time he issued the decree (538 BCE), and there’s a huge difference there.”

    Third time . i don’t need to give anything because the calculation is simply years of sin subtract 70 multiply by 7 of the remainder. Thats it. I’m fine with 606 BC because its the date even skepitcs site indicate is the specified year in the Bible

    Like

  137. “Btw, I know the 606 BCE date was being used long before 1948, because they get that date from Daniel. ‘

    Good then stop lying that the date is fudged after the fact to make it work. Its year indicated in the Bible not something somebody made up because it lined up with 1948

    “. But Daniel is not considered reliable by most scholars, and we have contemporary accounts that don’t support the 606 BCE date.”

    Nate before that can be entered into any intelligent conversation you would have to prove that Daniel is unreliable. Most of your posts on that have been abysmally inadequate – Begging that ab cannot be used as grandfather, begging about Darius the Mede and floating your various theories about when Daniel was written.

    So 606 is in dispute – Fine. I don;t buy the argument because its a biblical calculation so using dates in the bible are the quite fine but for the purpose of your claims again fine –

    What about the 1967 start date nate? You know the subject you avoid in your piece and every time I mention it

    Like

  138. “really, is there anyone here who believes a productive conversation is possible”

    Howie give the hypocrisy meter some rest. The spring is going to melt. The only time you complain about how accusations of lying, fudging ,twisting etc don’t lead to productive conversation is when its a theist making the accusation. If you removed the implication that theists twist, fudge, deny or lie from this blog it would be a ghost town

    Like

  139. Shalom!
    Thank you so much for your Web site in which you wrote many things.I READ them. So it is the greatest privilege to me to share the word of YHWH concerning 70 Weeks Prophecy in detail. I am willing to edify my spiritual life as I believe in 5 fold ministry (Ephesians 4:4-16).
    I am willing to share about all the Prophecies.
    Thank you.
    Manasseh, Evangelist and Astronomer.
    abrahamissacyacob@gmail.com

    Like

  140. Hi Buttercup Springs!

    I am a Christian no longer. If you’re interested, my home page has a brief synopsis of who I am and what my blog is about. And from there, I also have links to a multi-part series on my deconversion.

    Thanks!

    Like

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s