You know Kathy, we’ve been fairly blunt with you today. Flippant, too. And it’s tough when people talk to/about you that way. I’m sorry for that.
If we could cut through all the rhetoric for a second, I’d like to commiserate with you. A little over 4 years ago, I was a very dedicated Christian. I had some doubts, but they weren’t about the Christian faith, just my understanding of it.
I felt like there were problems in my beliefs about the gospel. I believed in a literal Hell, and I believed a lot of people would be going there. But I had a very hard time squaring that with a loving God. I had matured enough to realize that most people were pretty decent. Not perfect, certainly, but good people who cared about others and typically wanted to do the right thing. I didn’t think such people deserved Hell. In fact, like Paul, I often thought that if God would accept it, I’d gladly go to Hell myself, if it would save my friends and family. And if everyone else could be added into that deal too, even better.
So if I felt that way, could I be more compassionate than God? Of course not. But I had a very hard time finding anything in the Bible that backed up an idea that most people, regardless of creed or belief would be saved.
I didn’t give up though. I knew about Universalists, so I decided to read up on their reasons for thinking everyone went to Heaven. It sounded good, but I just wasn’t convinced by their arguments. I just didn’t see the Bible teaching such a doctrine, and I still believed the Bible was the inerrant word of God.
I was in a state of flux.
And that’s the position I was in when I first ran across articles that pointed out flaws in the Bible. I was shocked by what the articles said, but since I didn’t have any answers against them at the moment, I got busy with research. I didn’t even comment on the articles — I just went to work. It wasn’t about winning any arguments; it was simply a search for answers.
I think that frame of mind I was in made all the difference for me. Deep down, I was already struggling. The doctrines I had long believed in, and even taught to others, didn’t fit together in my mind as well as they once had.
That’s probably the difference between you and me. I get the feeling that you question nothing about your faith. Not trying to put you down about that; just making an observation.
For me, discovering that the Bible was not the perfect book I had always thought it to be, and finding out that some of these church leaders I had always admired knew of these problems but never spoke of them, helped me make sense of a lot of things. It took time, and it wasn’t easy to come to the realizations, but everything finally fell into place for me when I realized Christianity was just another religion. For the first time, I finally understood the sentiment of that line from “Amazing Grace,” I once was blind, but now I see…
I don’t know if that’s helpful to you at all. Maybe one day it will be. Maybe one day, something will make you ask a few questions, and you’ll think back to those non- believers who were so insistent that Christianity was certainly not the only way. If that day comes, I hope you’ll find this exchange helpful and realize you’re not alone.
Finding Truth 
Arch,
re: ” RE: “we have NO other valid explanation” – I’m not agreeing that that’s true, but why do we NEED one? How about saying, “We don’t currently have a valid explanation, but tossing a supernatural, magical entity into the mix, sure isn’t gonna do it!” ”
Why do you need to believe we aren’t created beings with a Creator? How about saying He COULD exist?? Same thing.
The truth, whatever it is, has NOTHING to do with “need”.. it has to do with TRUTH.. what actually is.. regardless of what we want or how we feel about it. That’s why it is mind boggling that people turn away from God because they don’t like having to answer to Him.. pretending to not believe in Him because it hurts your fragile ego and pride and inconveniences your will, won’t change the truth of His existence one. single. bit.
And it’s also so incredibly ignorant to insist that something couldn’t exist just because in your very short time in existence, in your tiny little place in a tiny little world, in a never ending, ILLOGICAL universe, you haven’t witnessed anything “supernatural”. It’s incredible arrogance. It is a total absence of humility. The more knowledge we gain by learning about the universe, the more HUMBLE we should be.. because it just makes us smaller and smaller and smaller… but with the atheist.. knowledge makes them more prideful and arrogant instead. Erroneously believing that scientific knowledge somehow disproves God. ..it doesn’t.. and it NEVER DID.. just because “ignorant, uneducated” “cave dwellers” believed that God was the cause of thunder.. knowing the scientific reasons for thunder today doesn’t then prove them wrong.. it STILL could have been God expressing His anger… using the science HE created.
“just because a person is paranoid.. that doesn’t mean they aren’t being followed”.
Only a truly arrogant person will claim what “can’t” be.. how can anyone know about the massive incredible universe and then say the Earth couldn’t be created in 6 days? Whoever created the universe, clearly has no limits. It’s complete arrogance.. a complete lack of humility. That’s what the universe was meant for.. to help man see how great God is.. but to the prideful and arrogant, they see how “great” they are for having the knowledge.
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Bottom line Arch.. whether atheists like it or not, which, you obviously do NOT.. the most rational reasonable explanation for our existence is that we have a Creator. This is true of everything in existence.. but somehow, for some reason.. it’s not true of humans and other living things. There is no valid argument for us NOT being created beings… none. It’s pure pride that causes man to believe he is the unique freak accident.. man who also happens to be the most complicated mass of components in existence.. all just a freak accident.
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Well HELL lo everybody,
@NAN, I didn’t see an answer to my comment about that dog, Nan. You tell that creature, “I aint skeard.”
@jasonjshaw, That will be just about enough of the genuine Christian conduct out of you young man. If these Christian’s wanted to conduct themselves as they should then they wouldn’t be on Nate’s Blog:) And you had better start acting a good deal more like a jerk yourself if you know whats good for you!
While I’m on the subject, @Charity, That will be ENOUGH, of the edifying comments like the last one to Nate! He has a big enough head as it is woman!
@Archaeopteryx, How dare you sir! If “bird” is in the name, “Proto-bird,” then YOU ARE A BEAUTIFUL BIRD!
@KC, Uh, I got nothin man. It’s not a bad thing! Just you seem emotionally stable and pretty sane. I’m not seeing a lot I can harass you about. Maybe some day you’ll become a little less balanced and give me something to work with. I can dream:)
OK NOW! Back to conducting myself now a proper Christian. Well, as good a one as the Old Man is gonna get. He knew what he was getting when he called me.
@Archaeopteryx and @Nate
The first hurtle we have to clear is this. I am not a Pauline. For an example of a Pauline, ask Nate to tell you about the Church of Christ. They are dead on.
Not being a Pauline means I DO NOT WORSHIP THE BIBLE. It is an “inspired” work. Inspired by it’s very definition does NOT carry the meaning of “perfect” or “infallible.” It was only meant to illuminate, educate and “inspire” those who read it to be more.
Now in reply to the Beautiful bird’s and Nate’s response to my comments about Genesis, Let us take a closer look.
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1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
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Now keep in mind, you CAN tell me I am bughouse crap faced crazy at any time. You’ll sound like my mother, but you it is your right.
This first part is metaphorical. The first verse is a statement of being as to who God is. It has almost nothing to do with verse 2.
In verse 2 the earth is what existed before the BANG. The water is a metophore for the “Word of God.” No not the Bible you poor Pauline beaten children, the Messiah. The part of God that directly interacts with the physical realm. He broods over the water because he is about to use it.
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3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
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Big Bang. What? You don’t think it had a lot of light?
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4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
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The dividing was the part where matter began to separate. This part would have taken millions of years for stars and planets to form.
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5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
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Funny thing about the Hebrew language, the same word they use for day can mean age. Just like in English. “In my day…” This verse just conveys that the first age came to a close when the planets and stars were formed.
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6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
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These verses are referring to two different things. The word of God (water) and the Oceans that covered the planet (water). I don’t care that you don’t buy it. It’s OK.
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9-13 are about land emerging and plants coming into being.
At this point “Archaeopteryx commented that single celled monera came first and then diverged but that plants came way down the line. They did but nothing that a nomadic Jew 5000 years ago, YES I SAW YOUR COMMENT AND IT DOES INTEREST ME. This was all caps so you know I saw it, would recognize as animal. So Plants come next to include the algae the first life would have eaten in the see.
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14-19 We’re skipping the next few verses as the information about the stars and sun and moon is incorrect.
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20: “Archaeopteryx”… life began in the sea. And birds – trust me on this – evolved from land animals.
Yes they did. But the old Jew got it right on it beginning in the sea. It’s the first thing he mentioned in verse 20.
And then it goes on to talk about great creatures in the sea that followed and then land animals. So the old guy got birds wrong. Not bad for a dude that only had God to ask for help.
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Now, Archaeopteryx, what are the expert witnesses about when the Old test was written? I’d like some links if you got em.
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“How about saying He COULD exist??” – How about explaining what created him?
“pretending to not believe in Him” – Hello – not pretending here —
The more knowledge we gain by learning about the universe, the smaller and smaller and smaller the need becomes for your “god of the gaps.”
“God is an ever-decreasing pocket of scientific ignorance, that gets smaller and smaller as time goes by.”
~~ astrophysist, Neill Degrasse Tyson ~~
“just because ‘ignorant, uneducated’ ‘cave dwellers’ believed that God was the cause of thunder.. knowing the scientific reasons for thunder today doesn’t then prove them wrong.. it STILL could have been God expressing His anger… using the science HE created.” – Why would an omnipotent entity use an electomagnetic display of electron imbalance to express anger? For that matter, why would any supreme being even feel anger at all? How “supreme” could he be, if his emotions are identical to our own?
“That’s what the universe was meant for.. to help man see how great God is” – Why would a supreme being NEED anyone to see how great he is? When I do a good deed for someone, help a lady change a tire, etc., I generally try to slip away with the least amount of fan fare, because I didn’t do it for praise or adulation, I did it simply because it needed to be done. One would certainly expect a god to have superior qualities to a Human, but according to you, he created an entire Universe just to say, “Look at me! Look at what I can do!” That doesn’t sound like superior behavior to me —
I WILL say this, you’re far more pleasant to talk to when you’re not raving and ranting and calling everyone names.
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Sorry, That was supposed to read as “what are THESE expert witnesses…”
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“It’s pure pride that causes man to believe he is the unique freak accident.. man who also happens to be the most complicated mass of components in existence.. all just a freak accident.” – This is what gives me reason to believe that you have never studied much about evolution, because that is not what evolution proposes. It’s absolutely true that we are a very complicated mass of components, but the first life on the planet wasn’t – it consisted of only a single cell. And those single cells did great for millions of years, until two cells somehow joined, or maybe never completely separated, but the double cell enjoyed advantages that a single cell didn’t, and lived to pass on its DNA to offspring, i.e., divisions of itself. The point is, that this complex organism that is us, grew over billions of years as a consequence of random DNA mutations, and those that were successful, lived to pass on those mutations to their offspring, while those whose mutations weren’t, died out. And so it went, and here we are.
It’s also clear, Kathy – and I don’t say this to demean you – that you don’t seem to know a great deal about how scientific theories are approached. Those who develop them, then work hard to prove them wrong, because when they are ultimately reviewed by their peers – other members of their scientific community – those peers are going to do their best to tear the theory apart, not because they’re mean and cruel, but because they take great pride in their scientific organization, and can’t release any theory as fact that hasn’t been tested and retested. And they don’t just look for the results they WANT to find either, in fact, they look even harder for the results that they DON’T want to find, because they would rather find it themselves, than have someone on the outside find it and they be made fools of.
This is why so many here are suggesting you look long and hard into other religions, really get to know them, rather than simply deciding that yours is superior, and thus you don’t feel you need to know about any others. If you don’t test your belief, like a scientist tests a theory, against others of its kind, then you can only believe it’s true, but you can never know for certain.
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RE: “@Archaeopteryx, How dare you sir! If “bird” is in the name, “Proto-bird,” then YOU ARE A BEAUTIFUL BIRD!” – Foist of all, haydendlinder, I won’t argue with you, I’m gorgeous – happy now? But the point I’m trying to make, is that I’m a transitional species, of which, anti-evolutionists say there ain’t none of.
Secondly, RE: “you CAN tell me I am bughouse crap faced crazy at any time.” – Some of my best friends are bughouse crap faced crazy – well, you KNOW Ark – you should fit right in.
And thirdly, and probably most importantly, it is nearly three freakin’ o’clock in my am, and I don’t even have enough left to read that long-assed comment that you wrote, much less dig up any references for you tonig-morning. I will read it when I awaken at the crack of noon, scout’s honor, and respond appropriately.
Don’t call me, I’ll call you.
Buenos nachos!
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““How about saying He COULD exist??” – How about explaining what created him?”
To use YOUR argument…
why do we NEED to know? How about saying, “We don’t currently have a valid explanation?
“The more knowledge we gain by learning about the universe, the smaller and smaller and smaller the need becomes for your “god of the gaps.”
See?!?! You just proved me right.. again! With knowledge there is incredible arrogance and pride. Arch, here’s a question I really want an answer to.. please explain HOW scientific knowledge disproves a Creator.
And please explain how “NEED” has ANY bearing on TRUTH.
You and Neil Tyson and every other atheist LIES to yourselves by believing that knowing how it all works somehow disproves a Creator. But I’ve asked so many atheists… including Tyson and I have NEVER gotten an answer.. instead I get atheists backtracking and trying to claim they never made the claim. But your comment, and Tyson’s imply the complete opposite.. so, I’m asking HOW.. please explain this..
“Why would an omnipotent entity use an electomagnetic display of electron imbalance to express anger?”
Why not?? It’s a very affective way to get our attention… particularly the lightening part.
“For that matter, why would any supreme being even feel anger at all? How “supreme” could he be, if his emotions are identical to our own?” ”
Who says God can’t have emotions?? Who made this “rule”?? You, just like Nate are making narrow minded assumptions about Someone who created YOU.. and everything around you.. and you see no problem with making these assumptions.. I don’t understand it.
“Why would a supreme being NEED anyone to see how great he is? ”
So, since you don’t understand His motives or His emotions, that means you get a “pass” and don’t have to believe in Him or worship Him? How do you think He’s going to react to that? Who are we to demand understanding before we will bow down to Him? There’s nothing wrong with asking questions but that’s not what you and Nate and others are doing.. you’re making demands. You are judging God and attempting to call the shots. How can anyone think this way?? Oh, never mind.. how could I forget.. pride.
You are CHOOSING to judge God instead of trying to understand Him. If you truly tried to understand Him, you wouldn’t have such questions to begin with.
“When I do a good deed for someone, help a lady change a tire, etc., I generally try to slip away with the least amount of fan fare, because I didn’t do it for praise or adulation, I did it simply because it needed to be done.” Good for you.. and I’m pretty sure God’s done more for you than you will ever realize.. and He hasn’t demanded any “fan fare” either.
One would certainly expect a god to have superior qualities to a Human, but according to you, he created an entire Universe just to say, “Look at me! Look at what I can do!” That doesn’t sound like superior behavior to me – ”
I never said this.. anywhere.. and there is NOTHING in the Bible that supports this “judgment” you’ve made against God. It’s all coming straight from your pride & ego. The Bible is clear.. He created us out of love. For us to love Him and for Him to love us. And His love for us was amazingly demonstrated through His Son. You kind of skipped right over that part.. but then, that’s what atheists have to do in order to be atheists.. you have to ignore all the things you have, all your blessings, your life, and especially Jesus’ sacrifice.. you have to ignore all of it.. and you all do that very very well unfortunately.
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Wrong, Kathy. Very wrong.
The atheist is in no position to categorically state there is or is not a creator.
What we ARE saying is this:
The evidence offered up so far for this creator deity, especially by theists such as yourself and Mike does not warrant consideration and can be dismissed.
It is unverifiable, not falsifiable and is largely derived from erroneous fallacious religious text.
If you, or any other religious person, however, has verifiable evidence to back your god claims then please show us.
There is no lying involved by atheists in this regard.
I, for one, am genuine, as I have a deep fascination for certain aspects of biblical history, Moses for one.
So please, feel free to offer any and all evidence you have for such claims of veracity and I will most definitely investigate.
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Kathy –
I am appalled and dismayed by the cavalier response you gave to that HORRID video. That woman was ‘speaking the truth’!??? Yes, indeed, it WAS too intense for children of that age. . . . . ANY age. I’ll bet that the rest of the people commenting on this thread (perhaps even TBlacksman) recognize what that tirade really was/is. Mental/emotional abuse of children. That woman’s face should be posted all over social media, and labelled as an abuser – and you defend her as she is, “encouraging children to not talk dirty”!??? I’d also like to know what you consider talking dirty. (using swear words? speaking of imaginary wizards? – what??)
In my opinion, this single comment establishes that you have absolutely no credibility. Anyone who is not completely horrified by that woman’s actions is not thinking clearly at all.
I shudder to think that there are children this very day who are listening to some nutbar like that woman and internalizing the message that they are not worthy. How dreadful. How despicable that anyone would defend her actions for ANY reason.
If that’s the kind of casual disregard you have for children’s feelings – in defence of the Christian god – than you really do need to take a closer look at your convictions.
OH, and by the way. Not one single thing you have said establishes that the christian god is responsible for creation, any more than allah, the muslim god. (I believe there are others, as well?) You’ll need to dig a little deeper.
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“You and Neil Tyson and every other atheist LIES to yourselves by believing that knowing how it all works somehow disproves a Creator. ”
But they don’t even have that going for them really. No one understands how quantum mechanics works and it apparently affects everything. The very nature of it is counter intuitive and does not open itself greatly to study of its ultimate causation. I don’t think they are necessarily lying but they are given to great fantasies in the name of science.
Its amusing to see Arch quote Tyson as if he is quoting a prophet or priest. This is why many are beginning to see atheism is its own religion. As you have seen from this group it not only has its beliefs ( everything out of nothing sans evidence) it has dogma and now even prophesies (of what Science WILL – lol – show).
Modern atheism has MANY beliefs and not the least is that science serves a master called materialism. Some have even convinced themselves (again sans evidence) that science is in the service of atheism. In other words they KNOW with perfect faith though science is provisional that in the great by and by it will always advanced both atheism and materialism.
The really great thing about being an atheist is that religion is pretty much beneath you to study. the embarrassing thing about that ignorance is bliss state is that it makes them say outrageously stupid things. Take Tyson’s comment that atheists memorize and go into a state of zen over – that God is a “ever decreasing pocket of ignorance” – it s amusingly actually quite the contrary.
We both know that the Bible claims God creates by Law, not by waving a magical stick or exerting any unknown force. he speaks and its done. Thats in all of genesis 1 and it extends to the very end of the New Testament over and over and over again. Yet what do we hear leading atheists say over and over again in almost assinine bliss – well its “once we have the laws of nature we do not need God or religion”.
See? complete ignorance of what it is they are opposing. For God and religion to be an ever decreasing pocket of ignorance you would need to be able to say that we don’t need the laws he is alleged to provide but what they tacitly admit to is that that sphere has not shrinked an inch. We very much require law and we don’t know how to explain it – even if we would be Krauss invoking law to create everything out of nothing.
Whats so entertaining about people like Arch and Ark is that you realize, even as they are blubbering on about Krauss and materialism out of nothing, that they don’t even understand the implications – If everything came out of nothing from any kind of law it would CONFIRM religion and God not disprove his existence.
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Once more, Mike, all you have to do is profer some verifiable evidence. This would immediately dispel all doubt and answer your critics once and for all.
But please, start with the god you worship…Yeshua.
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TBlacksman, I actually have experience with “speaking the truth” when in fact my “truth” was actually more vicious of nature rather than conveying honest information. I noticed this in a number of your responses, which is why I spoke up.
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“I shudder to think that there are children this very day who are listening to some nutbar like that woman and internalizing the message that they are not worthy. How dreadful. How despicable that anyone would defend her actions for ANY reason. ”
Yawn……….. your emotional theatric outrage does not make for evidence. Frankly I don’t watch the videos you guys post but since you mentioned me as possibly not agreeing I did this once. I had no problem with the first part but yeah I could do without the last part with the unbiblical washing of hands and chanting as if that does anything. I also think she’s watched one too many TV evangelist.
I can see having a problem with those things and with the style but the substance is just you being outraged that people don’t believe as you do – nothing much else. I don’t know about the rest of that camp but I didn’t hear her say the kids were unworthy either. I’ve seen children crying before even my own and its a beautiful thing. As you read me saying that I can bet that just raises your emotional outrage for me to say such a thing but it illustrates how your emotional reactions don’t mean anything except that you think you are more righteous and caring based on sound bites. Why?
because my children have cried when they realized they hurt their siblings feelings so yes sometimes crying can be a beautiful thing.
Meanwhile don’t think we don’t see through the outrage and bluster about child abuse. I am so thankful that atheists are in the minority because its quite clear and some of you have said as much – you would LOVE to violate our freedom of religion on the pretense of alleged child abuse. Today it will be for how some TV evangelists inspired person speaks tomorrow it will be just for teaching our kids the bible is the word of God.
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“TBlacksman, I actually have experience’
Don’t care what you have experience with. One thing you don’t obviously have experience with is following through with your own words. You said this exchange makes no sense a day ago and you are till carrying it on. Your ENTIRE input here has been focusing on criticizing one person with no other substance or positive input into any discussion
So now whose the hypocrite?
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Oh…..that day is coming, hotshot. Count on it. Self-centered, sanctimonious hypocritical bastards like you will have to get used to the fact that,em>every Abrahamic religion will eventually be regarded as nothing but disgusting little cults.
Oh, it will take while, no doubt, but science has been the death knell for myriad religious practices. Your piss willy faith will go the same way.
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“This would immediately dispel all doubt and answer your critics once and for all.”
I’d ask why you must incessantly lie the way you do but it will only add to the questions you have refused to deal with. If you were not among the group that just about denied Israel was a nation again as prophesied and tried to float that everything came out of nothing then you would have a chance at being credible on that barf but ….well we know how that condition was flunked.
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I don’t recall you asking me any questions?
But, please, feel free. Perhaps a brief summary would be in order and I will most definitely answer them.
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“you would LOVE to violate our freedom of religion on the pretense of alleged child abuse.”
Oh…..that day is coming, hotshot. Count on it. Self-centered, sanctimonious hypocritical bastards like you will have to get used to the fact that,em>every Abrahamic religion will eventually be regarded as nothing but disgusting little cults.”
ROFL….. I love it. One stepped right up and owned he wants to take away freedom of Religion. Thanks Ark you saved me a ton load of time responding to those who were set to deny it.
and umm good luck with that dream of yours. Given the poll numbers on atheism its quite the fantasy.
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“And if you look at the ‘numbers’ correctly you will see that you are wrong. Oh, so very wrong”
I think you had a problem with your keyboard and instead of correctly you meant to type delusionally
Maybe you should work on the the inlaw problem first
http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2023899462_westneat22xml.html
baby steps and all that.
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” But children are another matter.”
One that you cant address without violating freedom of religion so your denial is a facade. As Kathy might say – typical liberal. You are the first to want to take away freedoms if it suits you.
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Oh, I am dreadfully sorry. Are you one of those who believes the US is the world? As far as religion goes the US (your country?) is probably up there with some of most backward on the planet.
Oh, dear….
Every nation goes through its religious phase. The more advanced ones come through it and begin to accept and adopt secularism.
The US will get there…eventually. Patience, Mike. Patience.
au contraire, my dear Mike.
A child has individual rights. Rights which are violated by enforcing an adult’s religion upon them without choice.
The above video is a perfect example. Also the abuse they are subject to with Creationism under the pretext of such nonsense as ACE schooling.
You may recall a case was brought to the Hague last year in an attempt to have circumcision outlawed for religious regions.
It failed. But that is a good thing…because that’s where it starts, Mike.
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“Oh, I am dreadfully sorry. Are you one of those who believes the US is the world? As far as religion goes the US (your country?) is probably up there with some of most backward on the planet.’
🙂 🙂 Oh I am dreadfully sorry Arch are you one of those people that think that Muslims countries are not part of the world or that Africa and south america are not either?
Your favorite resource rebuts your latest desperate claims
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religions_by_country
“You may recall a case was brought to the Hague last year in an attempt to have circumcision outlawed for religious regions.
It failed.”
But of course it failed since as with every thing the creator calls for it has sweeping benefits
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/04/07/circumcision-benefits-outweigh-risks-study-reports/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0
Keep trying Arch. You may yet make a good point….or at least bore me to the point of leaving (If kathy will not give up on you soon).
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Greetings, all! I have been reading Nate’s blog daily for the past few weeks and initially found this back and for the to be interesting. As of late, it’s getting tiresome. I’d like to try and take it in a slightly different direction.
Kathy, I know many here are firmly in the Atheist camp. I would consider myself an Agnostic. I have no problem with the idea of a Creator. So let’s start with the assumption that there is someone/something out there that created us. Taking out that hurdle, what evidence do you have that that Creator is the God of the Bible? Other than its own claims, what do you have to back that assumption up? THAT is where I see the contradictions and failed prophecies as problematic. If our Creator chose to communicate with us (and there’s nothing that says he HAD to do so), then we should be able to definitively determine which communication is from the divine as opposed to being from man. I would like to see you counter the “credentials” of the Christian God against those of other religions. What is it that causes you to dismiss Islam, Hinduism, etc… that wouldn’t also cause you to dismiss Christianity? I came out of the same ultra-conservative, literalist background as Nate and believed fervently for many years too. But after stepping away and looking at it OBJECTIVELY and with as little bias as I could muster, came away thoroughly convinced that the Bible was not divinely inspired. The problem many Christians have with being objective is that to them, the Bible IS God and the two are inseparable. Try to remember that when Nate and William and others are picking apart the continuity and inaccuracy of the Bible, they aren’t questioning God, they are questioning the veracity of a book written by men.
All that said, I think the arguments about our creation are pointless as neither side can provide any evidence at this juncture. I’d like to see the conversation move back to the evidences for and against the book. And when “evidence” is presented by EITHERwhether it be an article, a video, or whatever, if anyone dismisses it out of hand and refuses to even look, that person is certainly not being objective.
Just my .02 on the matter.
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