You know Kathy, we’ve been fairly blunt with you today. Flippant, too. And it’s tough when people talk to/about you that way. I’m sorry for that.
If we could cut through all the rhetoric for a second, I’d like to commiserate with you. A little over 4 years ago, I was a very dedicated Christian. I had some doubts, but they weren’t about the Christian faith, just my understanding of it.
I felt like there were problems in my beliefs about the gospel. I believed in a literal Hell, and I believed a lot of people would be going there. But I had a very hard time squaring that with a loving God. I had matured enough to realize that most people were pretty decent. Not perfect, certainly, but good people who cared about others and typically wanted to do the right thing. I didn’t think such people deserved Hell. In fact, like Paul, I often thought that if God would accept it, I’d gladly go to Hell myself, if it would save my friends and family. And if everyone else could be added into that deal too, even better.
So if I felt that way, could I be more compassionate than God? Of course not. But I had a very hard time finding anything in the Bible that backed up an idea that most people, regardless of creed or belief would be saved.
I didn’t give up though. I knew about Universalists, so I decided to read up on their reasons for thinking everyone went to Heaven. It sounded good, but I just wasn’t convinced by their arguments. I just didn’t see the Bible teaching such a doctrine, and I still believed the Bible was the inerrant word of God.
I was in a state of flux.
And that’s the position I was in when I first ran across articles that pointed out flaws in the Bible. I was shocked by what the articles said, but since I didn’t have any answers against them at the moment, I got busy with research. I didn’t even comment on the articles — I just went to work. It wasn’t about winning any arguments; it was simply a search for answers.
I think that frame of mind I was in made all the difference for me. Deep down, I was already struggling. The doctrines I had long believed in, and even taught to others, didn’t fit together in my mind as well as they once had.
That’s probably the difference between you and me. I get the feeling that you question nothing about your faith. Not trying to put you down about that; just making an observation.
For me, discovering that the Bible was not the perfect book I had always thought it to be, and finding out that some of these church leaders I had always admired knew of these problems but never spoke of them, helped me make sense of a lot of things. It took time, and it wasn’t easy to come to the realizations, but everything finally fell into place for me when I realized Christianity was just another religion. For the first time, I finally understood the sentiment of that line from “Amazing Grace,” I once was blind, but now I see…
I don’t know if that’s helpful to you at all. Maybe one day it will be. Maybe one day, something will make you ask a few questions, and you’ll think back to those non- believers who were so insistent that Christianity was certainly not the only way. If that day comes, I hope you’ll find this exchange helpful and realize you’re not alone.
Finding Truth 
“Arch, you’re projecting again.” – Yes, but it won’t show if I remain seated and keep my legs crossed.
LikeLike
Get serious, people! Kathy’s soon going to be here and you’re all gonna have some ‘splainin to do!
LikeLike
‘splainin to do? LOL
Carmen, we’ve pretty much done all the explaining, but she’s got one hell of a filter going on there. We’re just gearing up the armor to await the flaming arrows. 😉
LikeLike
Carmen said:
”
carmen
July 16, 2014 at 5:42 am
“Leftist policies…push the war on women.. Can’t forget that strategy”.
Kathy, women empower one another. They don’t make snide comments like yours.”
Wrong. God empowers all of us. The “war on women” is fiction.. it’s liberal propaganda.. there is no “war on women”.
LikeLike
Oh be careful little ears what you hear, be careful little eyes what you see, and be careful little mouths what you say. There’s somebody watching you.
LikeLike
She’ll probably call us LIBERALS!
LikeLike
She’ll probably call us LIBERALS!
Hahahaha! You mean…She’ll probably call us LIBERALS again!
LikeLike
I spoke too soon.
Kathy, what an original answer to my comment!
LikeLike
LMAO
LikeLike
Politics and religion often relate, but it’s like building blocks – before we can get to the top, we must work on the foundation.
Religion is the foundation here – let’s not get sidetracked with the politics.
I’d like kathy to elaborate on some of the questions she was asked earlier regarding the bible.
LikeLike
“Oh be careful little ears what you hear, be careful little eyes what you see, and be careful little mouths what you say. There’s somebody watching you.” – And he’s makin’ a list and checkin’ it TWICE!
LikeLike
“Oh be careful little ears what you hear, be careful little eyes what you see, and be careful little mouths what you say. There’s somebody watching you.”
Ruth, I was reminded of this:
“If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed.” ~Mark Twain
LikeLike
– And he’s makin’ a list and checkin’ it TWICE!
Lump of coal…fire and brimstone. Hmmmm…..
LikeLike
“If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed.” ~Mark Twain
That may be, but if they need those incentives then by all means they should keep them. I’d hate to think what kind of people they would be if they didn’t have them.
Just don’t go callin’ that any kind of integrity or character.
LikeLike
William, you said:
“Now, I believe there is no evidence for the bible being divine – that lack of evidence is why I dont believe, as is the evidence that I believe shows the bible to contain errors (as we’ve pointed out).
It is a similar position to the one that causes me to doubt all other religions, werewolves, trolls, bigfoot, and unicorns. Again, can you disprove bigfoot? No, but since it hasnt been proven, most people remain skeptical, and are even quite certain that there is no such beastman roaming north america.”
William, my question actually didn’t ask why you rejected the Bible … it was about rejecting Jesus. Why do you reject Jesus? Why do you believe He didn’t walk to His death willingly, allowing Himself to be killed. And why do you dismiss the evidence that His disciples subsequently gave their lives to testify to the Truth of Jesus and what He did?
And here’s what I believe the Asker will say when you claim that Jesus was no different than “Bigfoot”.. “who died for Bigfoot to testify to his existence?” “Who dedicated their life for Bigfoot?” “What does bigfoot offer you that you would even care about his existence?” What does bigfoot or unicorns or trolls etc have to do with Jesus? Nothing. There is no compelling evidence by comparison for any of these things. There is tons of testimony for Jesus, often signed in the testifiers own blood. Comparing Jesus with fictitious characters just reveals a lack of objectivity… a lack of acknowledgment of the real evidence for Jesus’ existence.
LikeLike
““If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed.”” – You’re not scoring any points there, that’s the way her Bible tells her her god made us.
LikeLike
“but if they need those incentives then by all means they should keep them. I’d hate to think what kind of people they would be if they didn’t have them.”
I agree Ruth, but the problem is they tend to think that everyone has behavioral problems and a lack of self-control like themselves and are hell bent on proselytizing.
On Wed, Jul 16, 2014 at 3:27 PM, Finding Truth wrote:
> Kathy (@kayms99) commented: “William, you said: “Now, I believe there > is no evidence for the bible being divine – that lack of evidence is why I > dont believe, as is the evidence that I believe shows the bible to contain > errors (as we’ve pointed out). It is a similar positio” >
LikeLike
“but if they need those incentives then by all means they should keep them. I’d hate to think what kind of people they would be if they didn’t have them.”
I agree Ruth, but the problem is they tend to think that everyone has behavioral problems and a lack of self-control like themselves, and are hell bent on proselytizing.
LikeLike
“William, my question actually didn’t ask why you rejected the Bible … it was about rejecting Jesus. Why do you reject Jesus? Why do you believe He didn’t walk to His death willingly, allowing Himself to be killed. And why do you dismiss the evidence that His disciples subsequently gave their lives to testify to the Truth of Jesus and what He did?”
@kathy,
If the bible is what tells us about Jesus, and I am convinced the bible is not from god, then i have no more reason to believe jesus was literally the son of god. I just dont buy it anymore.
and martyrs are evidence of the martyr’s belief and devotion to whatever it was they gave their lives for. For some it’s jesus, for others it’s allah, for others still it is in protest to corrupt governments.
the real question, i think, is if you find martyrdom to be so compelling in the way of evidence, then why do you not count it as equally good for other religions?
and if you admit that it is evidence for them as well, then this issue is really moot, isnt it?
and no, I suppose bigfoot didnt die for my sins – but so far, all we have is book of claims made by men that say jesus died for us too – maybe god wont think that;s good enough – but it is honest and accurate.
LikeLike
Kathy,
There is tons of testimony for Jesus, often signed in the testifiers own blood.
Are you referring to the alleged martyrdom of the apostles here? If so, what is your source for this?
LikeLike
“There is tons of testimony for Jesus, often signed in the testifiers own blood.” – Show me some that was written by anyone who knew him —
LikeLike
William, cont..
Actually, though, I don’t believe God will engage in the kind of back and forths that we are doing here.. here is one of Jesus’ parables that I believe adequately describes many here and what will be the consequences..
The Parable of the Bags of Gold
14 “Again, it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted his wealth to them. 15 To one he gave five bags of gold, to another two bags, and to another one bag,[a] each according to his ability. Then he went on his journey. 16 The man who had received five bags of gold went at once and put his money to work and gained five bags more. 17 So also, the one with two bags of gold gained two more. 18 But the man who had received one bag went off, dug a hole in the ground and hid his master’s money.
19 “After a long time the master of those servants returned and settled accounts with them. 20 The man who had received five bags of gold brought the other five. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘you entrusted me with five bags of gold. See, I have gained five more.’
21 “His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!’
22 “The man with two bags of gold also came. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘you entrusted me with two bags of gold; see, I have gained two more.’
23 “His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!’
24 “Then the man who had received one bag of gold came. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘I knew that you are a hard man, harvesting where you have not sown and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 So I was afraid and went out and hid your gold in the ground. See, here is what belongs to you.’
26 “His master replied, ‘You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed? 27 Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest.
28 “‘So take the bag of gold from him and give it to the one who has ten bags. 29 For whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 30 And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
The man with one bag of gold had decided that he didn’t like the Master’s terms.. he judged the Master and decided to spite Him instead of allow Him to benefit from His own money, which he could have simply allowed it to earn interest requiring no effort at all, easier than digging a hole and burying it. And sooooo, the Master said.. FINE.. BYE! No debate, no discussion.
This is what I’ve been trying to explain to all of you.. that while you don’t agree with God’s “terms” or His methods.. how does that change your fate? It doesn’t.. your disagreement only hurts YOU. It’s much better to accept the terms and make an HONEST effort to understand God and His reasons. But atheists are too quick to judge God instead.. it makes no sense.
The 3rd man KNEW how hard the Master was.. and STILL chose to spite Him.. he had to know that there would be consequences to pay and yet he still chose to judge instead of obey. It makes no sense.. and this choice is nothing more than a result of pride and ego.. a complete lack of humility.
LikeLike
“Comparing Jesus with fictitious characters just reveals a lack of objectivity… a lack of acknowledgment of the real evidence for Jesus’ existence.” – kathy
and look, I’m not trying to be cavalier – but making a point. with these fictitious characters, you dont believe in them merely because people told you they were real, or because they have hair samples and foot molds.
In this way, I am making the comparison. “Claims” “martyrs” and whatever else you listed arent coincrete proof, and are common to all religions. So what is the real evidence that jesus was more than a man?
LikeLike
Arch, true that. Weren’t those power addicted codgers brilliant?
LikeLike
This is what I’ve been trying to explain to all of you.. that while you don’t agree with God’s “terms” or His methods.. how does that change your fate? It doesn’t.. your disagreement only hurts YOU. It’s much better to accept the terms and make an HONEST effort to understand God and His reasons. But atheists are too quick to judge God instead.. it makes no sense.
Kathy, we get your point about that. At least I do. I realize that it doesn’t make any difference if I like the rules or not, if I agree with God’s judgement or not, or whether I like his “terms” or methods. If God is real it doesn’t make one iota of a difference what I think about his “plans”.
I simply don’t believe this God exists. It’s not that I believe he does and am rebelling, or decided I don’t like him. I don’t think he’s real. I’m not judging God because it’s impossible to judge a being that doesn’t exist.
LikeLike