You know Kathy, we’ve been fairly blunt with you today. Flippant, too. And it’s tough when people talk to/about you that way. I’m sorry for that.
If we could cut through all the rhetoric for a second, I’d like to commiserate with you. A little over 4 years ago, I was a very dedicated Christian. I had some doubts, but they weren’t about the Christian faith, just my understanding of it.
I felt like there were problems in my beliefs about the gospel. I believed in a literal Hell, and I believed a lot of people would be going there. But I had a very hard time squaring that with a loving God. I had matured enough to realize that most people were pretty decent. Not perfect, certainly, but good people who cared about others and typically wanted to do the right thing. I didn’t think such people deserved Hell. In fact, like Paul, I often thought that if God would accept it, I’d gladly go to Hell myself, if it would save my friends and family. And if everyone else could be added into that deal too, even better.
So if I felt that way, could I be more compassionate than God? Of course not. But I had a very hard time finding anything in the Bible that backed up an idea that most people, regardless of creed or belief would be saved.
I didn’t give up though. I knew about Universalists, so I decided to read up on their reasons for thinking everyone went to Heaven. It sounded good, but I just wasn’t convinced by their arguments. I just didn’t see the Bible teaching such a doctrine, and I still believed the Bible was the inerrant word of God.
I was in a state of flux.
And that’s the position I was in when I first ran across articles that pointed out flaws in the Bible. I was shocked by what the articles said, but since I didn’t have any answers against them at the moment, I got busy with research. I didn’t even comment on the articles — I just went to work. It wasn’t about winning any arguments; it was simply a search for answers.
I think that frame of mind I was in made all the difference for me. Deep down, I was already struggling. The doctrines I had long believed in, and even taught to others, didn’t fit together in my mind as well as they once had.
That’s probably the difference between you and me. I get the feeling that you question nothing about your faith. Not trying to put you down about that; just making an observation.
For me, discovering that the Bible was not the perfect book I had always thought it to be, and finding out that some of these church leaders I had always admired knew of these problems but never spoke of them, helped me make sense of a lot of things. It took time, and it wasn’t easy to come to the realizations, but everything finally fell into place for me when I realized Christianity was just another religion. For the first time, I finally understood the sentiment of that line from “Amazing Grace,” I once was blind, but now I see…
I don’t know if that’s helpful to you at all. Maybe one day it will be. Maybe one day, something will make you ask a few questions, and you’ll think back to those non- believers who were so insistent that Christianity was certainly not the only way. If that day comes, I hope you’ll find this exchange helpful and realize you’re not alone.
Finding Truth 
Where’s Kathy? Did we ask her too many questions?
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oopsie – William, you’re not the only one who doesn’t proofread. That’s supposed to read, ” . .. who they are AND they fit. . . ” I type too fast! (along with many other ‘naughties’)
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at one point kathy had stopped and admitted a stupid mistake on her part, earning a bit of respect. Perhaps she’s thinking things over now before replying. Who knows?
We’ll see in time.
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We can always hope, William. We can always hope. 🙂
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” I work with young people (Junior High/High School) and I know how fragile their sense of self is. I value their spontaneity, their unabashed enthusiasm for life, their working out of who they are how they fit into their world with all the information they’re being bombarded with. I appreciate that they need positive people in their lives, people who affirm their uniqueness.
Carmen, thank you fo your feedback. I don’t know if Charity will pop in here anytime soon, but she shared a Southern Baptist article a while back where it shared the importance of getting children indoctrinated at a certain age, and that once you do, it’s very likely they will remain faithful Christians. Now, what’s disconcerting about this is that the very age group he was mentioning was the age group you are teaching. This is a critical time in brain development when significant neural pruning takes place, and what remains will network and strengthen. This reinforcement of neural networks makes it very difficult to prune away (atrophy) at a later age.
But also, as you mentioned, they are working out who they are and how they fit into their world with all the information they’re being bombarded with several years before their frontal lobes have fully developed, providing the ability to critically think and reason. So these kids are vulnerable to religious indoctrination, and the religious hierarchy know it. I can’t stress enough how brilliant the Christian strategy is and it pisses me off royally, because good, caring adults and children are conned for filthy lucre’s sake.
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Has anyone seen the trailer of the new movie, “Persecuted”?
Wow. It’s right up Kathy’s alley.
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Whoops! Let’s try that again … http://boingboing.net/2014/07/16/persecuted-thriller-about.html
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Beautiful parable, William. I almost wanted to comment on it, but I’ll let it be. I think it more than deserves to sink in without commentary from the likes of me 🙂
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Nan, I saw it on Dan Fincke’s Nosebook feed yesterday or today. He is a philosophy professor (has a Blog, “Camels with Hammers” on Patheos). No doubt, he’ll do a comprehensive review, like he did with “God’s Not Dead”.
Just what everyone needs – Hollywood’s endorsement of fundagelicals’ whining, noxious reaction to having Christian privilege questioned and/or criticized.
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Ruth, you said:
“I simply don’t believe this God exists. It’s not that I believe he does and am rebelling, or decided I don’t like him. I don’t think he’s real. I’m not judging God because it’s impossible to judge a being that doesn’t exist.”
That’s why I said this: ” here is one of Jesus’ parables that I believe adequately describes many here and what will be the consequences..”
I didn’t say “all”. But honestly, I do believe that ultimately, it is true of all. I don’t believe that anyone, deep down, doesn’t believe that we are created beings.
But MOST here have given comments that perfectly support my claim by their very own words.
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William, you said:
“and look, I’m not trying to be cavalier – but making a point. with these fictitious characters, you dont believe in them merely because people told you they were real, or because they have hair samples and foot molds.
In this way, I am making the comparison. ”
And I don’t believe that Jesus is real because of foot molds or someone told me so.
Several times now you’ve made the claim that the evidence for Jesus is the same for any of these other examples.. and it just is not William.
You ask for the evidence, but I’m not going to repeat myself yet again, I’ve been giving examples of the evidence all along.. just go back and read my comments.
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Kathy – there has been NO evidence presented because there IS no evidence. Admit it. That’s your delusion but I, for one, understand. You see, delusion and denial are easier than reality and real truth, which is what most of us have embraced. We’re much better off because of it.
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Ruth, you said:
“Kathy,
There is tons of testimony for Jesus, often signed in the testifiers own blood.
Are you referring to the alleged martyrdom of the apostles here? If so, what is your source for this?”
Arch said:
““Are you referring to the alleged martyrdom of the apostles here? If so, what is your source for this?” – I’d love to hear her answer to that, but I’ll bet you never get it.”
I could look for the evidence and post it, which I will eventually, but I think the question you might be presented with on that day (if you get any questions at all).. would be, what evidence do you have to NOT believe the claims?
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Nate, you said:
“Kathy, Ruth is exactly right.
For example, do you go around with garlic and a crucifix? You should — I mean, how else will you defend yourself when you’re attacked by a vampire?”
Nate, I know of no compelling evidence for the existence of vampires.. sigh…
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And if it’s Allah standing there, or Ahura Mazda, how will you answer, Kathy?
You need to realize that we think the god you worship is just as likely to exist as Thor is. So we’re about as afraid of Hell as you are of Mjolnir.
And please do get around to looking for that evidence. You put so much stock in martyrdom (though only for Christianity, for some reason) that you should really take some time to see if there’s actually any evidence for the apostles’ being martyrs.
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YES!!!! This is exactly the point!!!
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“kathy, yeah, there’s a lot of good stuff in the bible, but there is still nothing that makes me think it’s from god.”
Once AGAIN.. fulfilled prophecies, hundreds if not thousands? of martyrs, accurate details verified by outside sources, archeological evidence that verifies details, multiple witnesses/ authors teaching the same doctrine.. all very COMPELLING evidence for the truth of the Bible.
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”
Nate, I know of no compelling evidence for the existence of vampires.. sigh…
YES!!!! This is exactly the point!!! ”
Is it Nate?? So, you are claiming there is no compelling evidence for the truth of the Bible?
NONE?? That the evidence for vampires is just as compelling?
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Kathy, allow me to answer your question to Nate — Yes, that is what we are claiming. From our perspective as non-believers, there is just as much evidence for vampires as there is for the “truth” of the bible.
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William, you said:
“My relationship with jesus was more like this:
A boy was told that he was betrothed from birth and had to marry a woman in a far away land…”
William, here is where you go wrong.. you equate our relationship with Jesus as the same as a relationship with another human being.
I would have given up long before you did. Jesus is different. He’s our Creator. The circumstances are entirely different.
And this only supports my previous assertions.. that atheists fail to acknowledge God as their “Master”.. you see Him as Someone you can judge and who must meet YOUR requirements, not the other way around.
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For you Nan.. from a comment two up from yours..
re: evidence for the truth of the Bible..
“Once AGAIN.. fulfilled prophecies, hundreds if not thousands? of martyrs, accurate details verified by outside sources, archeological evidence that verifies details, multiple witnesses/ authors teaching the same doctrine.. all very COMPELLING evidence for the truth of the Bible.”
Now, please list the compelling evidence for Vampires..
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“what evidence do you have to NOT believe the claims?
Kathy, these findings or lack thereof affect their credibility of Jesus and Paul and the anonymous Gospel writers who never even met Jesus. Please understand that people do nOT need a god to be moral — to have empathy — to care for others. Neurological and child development studies have shown this. That’s called prosocial behavior and it is observed in other species. Neither Jesus or Paul brought new revelation about prosocial behavior. It is intrinsic. When things happen in the environment, it can affect our brain, neuroplasticity, our hormones, neurotransmitters, and gene expression.
But there is no evidence that your biblical god, Yahweh, Jesus daddy, exists.
——————–:
“It’s been decades since we’ve known – what’s the hold up?” ~Israel Finkelstein — Chairman of the Archaeology Department at Tel Aviv University.
“The period of the patriarchs, exodus, conquest, or judges as devised by the writers of Scriptures never existed,” ~ Robert Coote — Senior Research Professor of Hebrew Exegesis at San Francisco’s Theological Seminary.
“The Genesis and Exodus accounts are a fiction,” ~ Niels Peter — Biblical scholar Lemche of the University of Copenhagen.
“The actual evidence concerning the Exodus resembles the evidence for the unicorn,” ~Baruch Halpern — Professor of Jewish Studies of Pennsylvania State University.
“The patriarchs’ acts are legendary stories, we did not sojourn in Egypt or make an exodus, we did not conquer the land. Those who take an interest have known these facts for years,” ~ Ze’ev Herzog of Tel Aviv University — Israeli archeologist
“Scholars have known these things for a long time, but we’ve broken the news very gently”~ Professor William Dever of the University of Arizona — America’s preeminent archaeologist
“The patriarchs’ acts are legendary stories… The Israelites were never in Egypt, did not wander in the desert, did not conquer the land in a military campaign and did not pass it on to the 12 tribes of Israel. Most of those who are engaged in scientific work in the interlocking spheres of the Bible, archaeology and the history of the Jewish people and who once went into the field looking for proof to corroborate the Bible story now agree that the historic events relating to the stages of the Jewish people’s emergence are radically different from what that story tells.” ~ Prof. Ze’ev Herzog — World’s leading biblical archaeologist
“I think there is no serious scholar in Israel or in the world who does not accept this position. Herzog represents a large group of Israeli scholars, and he stands squarely within the consensus. Twenty years ago even I wrote of the same matters and I was not an innovator. Archaeologists simply do not take the trouble of bringing their discoveries to public attention.” ~ Professor Magen Broshi, head Archaeologist at the Israel Museum
“The rejection of the Bible as literally true is more or less settled and understood among most Conservative rabbis.” ~Rabbi David Wolpe
An excerpt from an article in Israel’s leading daily newspaper Harratz — May 6, 2011:
“Currently there is broad agreement among archaeologists and Bible scholars that there is no historical basis for the narratives of the patriarchs, the exodus from Egypt and the conquest of Canaan, nor any archaeological evidence to make them think otherwise.”
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Correction: affect the credibility of Jesus and Paul and the anonymous Gospel writers who never even met Jesus.
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Critical thinking is the intellectually disciplined process of actively and skillfully conceptualizing, applying, analyzing, synthesizing, and/or evaluating information gathered from, or generated by, observation, experience, reflection, reasoning, or communication, as a guide to belief and action. In its exemplary form, it is based on universal intellectual values that transcend subject matter divisions: clarity, accuracy, precision, consistency, relevance, sound evidence, good reasons, depth, breadth, and fairness.
It entails the examination of those structures or elements of thought implicit in all reasoning: purpose, problem, or question-at-issue; assumptions; concepts; empirical grounding; reasoning leading to conclusions; implications and consequences; objections from alternative viewpoints; and frame of reference. Critical thinking — in being responsive to variable subject matter, issues, and purposes — is incorporated in a family of interwoven modes of thinking, among them: scientific thinking, mathematical thinking, historical thinking, anthropological thinking, economic thinking, moral thinking, and philosophical thinking.
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Well, I, for one, absolutely do not believe that we are “created beings,” unless you include what my Mom and Dad did to “create” me.
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