You know Kathy, we’ve been fairly blunt with you today. Flippant, too. And it’s tough when people talk to/about you that way. I’m sorry for that.
If we could cut through all the rhetoric for a second, I’d like to commiserate with you. A little over 4 years ago, I was a very dedicated Christian. I had some doubts, but they weren’t about the Christian faith, just my understanding of it.
I felt like there were problems in my beliefs about the gospel. I believed in a literal Hell, and I believed a lot of people would be going there. But I had a very hard time squaring that with a loving God. I had matured enough to realize that most people were pretty decent. Not perfect, certainly, but good people who cared about others and typically wanted to do the right thing. I didn’t think such people deserved Hell. In fact, like Paul, I often thought that if God would accept it, I’d gladly go to Hell myself, if it would save my friends and family. And if everyone else could be added into that deal too, even better.
So if I felt that way, could I be more compassionate than God? Of course not. But I had a very hard time finding anything in the Bible that backed up an idea that most people, regardless of creed or belief would be saved.
I didn’t give up though. I knew about Universalists, so I decided to read up on their reasons for thinking everyone went to Heaven. It sounded good, but I just wasn’t convinced by their arguments. I just didn’t see the Bible teaching such a doctrine, and I still believed the Bible was the inerrant word of God.
I was in a state of flux.
And that’s the position I was in when I first ran across articles that pointed out flaws in the Bible. I was shocked by what the articles said, but since I didn’t have any answers against them at the moment, I got busy with research. I didn’t even comment on the articles — I just went to work. It wasn’t about winning any arguments; it was simply a search for answers.
I think that frame of mind I was in made all the difference for me. Deep down, I was already struggling. The doctrines I had long believed in, and even taught to others, didn’t fit together in my mind as well as they once had.
That’s probably the difference between you and me. I get the feeling that you question nothing about your faith. Not trying to put you down about that; just making an observation.
For me, discovering that the Bible was not the perfect book I had always thought it to be, and finding out that some of these church leaders I had always admired knew of these problems but never spoke of them, helped me make sense of a lot of things. It took time, and it wasn’t easy to come to the realizations, but everything finally fell into place for me when I realized Christianity was just another religion. For the first time, I finally understood the sentiment of that line from “Amazing Grace,” I once was blind, but now I see…
I don’t know if that’s helpful to you at all. Maybe one day it will be. Maybe one day, something will make you ask a few questions, and you’ll think back to those non- believers who were so insistent that Christianity was certainly not the only way. If that day comes, I hope you’ll find this exchange helpful and realize you’re not alone.
Finding Truth 
Nate, cont..
“multiple witnesses/authors teaching the same doctrine — you do know that the Bible was assembled by committee, right? Do you think they would have selected widely divergent texts? Furthermore, the ones in the Bible aren’t as compatible as you might think. From doctrinal points to factual details, they often vary.”
So, it seems you’re claiming that they had lots and lots of books to select from and match up? How many would that be? And if you are going to put that argument forth, then why in the WORLD would they include all those “contradictions”??
And there might be some slight differences but not on the major points. And of course, this is yet another area where objectivity is required… where context is key. Also, look at Buddhism, it’s ALL over the place.. hardly any consistency at all and that goes for many other religions. Another area where Christianity’s credentials are superior.
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““all they lost was a mass murderer.. – at the cost of how many lives?”
A LOT LESS than if Hussein were still alive and starting wars and obtaining more WMDs.. which there was NO reason to believe he didn’t want to obtain them.
“Amazing how Halliburton, an oil field services company, once we were firmly ensconced in Iraq, suddenly provided transportation services, security services, and a number of others, at US Government expense – Cheney was taking care of his own.”
So? If it wasn’t his company it would have been someone else’s.. I don’t get your point.
Are you trying to claim that Bush and Cheney started the war in Iraq for their own personal monetary gain? Is this your claim? I just want to be sure..
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““if I’m going to read all of that” – you either will, or you won’t. If you don’t, then this subject is closed.”
So, you refuse to give your source… I wonder why..
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Geez, someone was up late last night. . . same old sh*t, different pile. .. (head shake)
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Good morning everyone!
I found a blogger who’s got a long list of ‘absurd arguments from fundamental Xians to prove the existence of god’ (I’m purposely not putting his Blog title on here because I like the guy and think he doesn’t need any more toxic fundamentalists bothering him) Here’s a few of the arguments that he compiled. The guy’s got a sense of humour!
Argument from Sheer Will
1. I Do Believe in God! I Do Believe in God! I Do, I Do, I Do!!
2. Therefore, God exists.
Argument from NonBelief
1. The majority of the world’s population are non-believers in Xianity.
2. This is just what Satan intended.
3. Therefore, God exists.
There’s many more, but here’s my favourite –
Argument from Persecution
1. Jesus said that people would make fun of Christians.
2. I am an idiot.
3. People often point that out to me.
4. Therefore, God exists.
Hope you didn’t snort coffee all over your keyboard!
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A LOT LESS than if Hussein were still alive and starting wars and obtaining more WMDs.. which there was NO reason to believe he didn’t want to obtain them.
More WMDs? Where are the ones he supposedly had again?
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Kathy –
“I know of no evidence that Bush was lying.. yes, you posted a BOOK as your “proof” but didn’t even give the source.. so I just ignored it. Give your source, if I’m going to read all of that, I’d prefer the LEAST edited liberal version.. I just assume it’s not from an objective/ honest non liberal source.”
This paragraph sums it all up. You are applying nothing CLOSE to approaching objectivity. You refuse to read what someone presents as evidence for their point because you dismiss it out of hand. You admits that IF you bothered to read it and you disagree with it, regardless of what it says or whether it is true, that you will just assume that it is biased/liberal and ignore it.
Please go about your life living as a “Christian” and be thou happy. But give up your “debating” on the internet. You are HORRIBLE at it.
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@portal1001
Er…what exactly was it that Jesus said he was, Ryan?
And what evidence do you have to demonstrate the veracity of your claim?
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Kathy,
Do you know Gary?
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Thanks for putting that on there, ratamacue0. I wanted to but don’t know how to imbed (computer dunce just raised her hand. . . . :))
Suppose she’ll read it??
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Carmen,
I have no idea if she’ll read it. She didn’t reply to my previous comment asking her direct questions, either.
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“What is YOUR evidence that there ARE no vampires?”
The lack of compelling evidence for their existence.” – kathy
@kathy,
Instead of copying and pasting a lot of what you said, i’ll just focus on this.
I agree with you, and I am also not compelled by the “evidence” you’ve presented. I wonder why you continue to list “martyrs” as evidence when all religions (and even nonreligious causes) have them? Again, even if martyrs were evidence for more than the martyr’s conviction, it becomes moot, because everything can list that as one of their evidences.
My parable was just right, whether you agree or not. What you know of god didn’t come from god, but from people. Has god given you a hug? has he actually spoken to you? Have you even seen him? You even admit that he didnt even write his own book, but had people do it for him… and you only believe that because the book claimed it…
I haven’t seen list any compelling evidences. Everything you’ve listed, we’ve shown to be suspect. And the prophecies? I feel like you haven’t even read most of them if you feel this way – but we can simply agree to disagree.
And you think everyone deep down believes they were created? I don’t care. Maybe we were created, I dont have any strong opinions on that, but how would a creator(s) equal the bible?
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I’ll make a prediction (see, anyone can do it!) about her reply –
It’ll use the word ‘liberal’ liberally. You’ll be reminded (again!) about your excessive pride and ego. ‘Cause Gawd doesn’t like it when a mere mortal uses their brain, don’t ya know?? Can’t have anyone out-thinking the man behind the curtain. Kathy (and hundreds just like her) are walking examples of how complete gullibility has somehow become a virtue. Honestly, quite mind-boggling.
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“Here is Nuero citing a “study” about characters many of which atheists consider mythical as proof that the religion of their mythical selves were connected being mentally ill. 🙂 :)”
Mike,
Someone wrote those stories and whether they are real people or characters in a story, they would classify as having a mental disorder if they went around today claiming the same thing, like god speaking to them from a burning bush. Do you believe the homeless schizophrenics preaching in the streets that Jesus is coming back and that people are going to hell if they don’t get saved? And how is that any different than the preachers and televangelists screaming in the pulpits today, clutching their bibles and shaking them in the air, saying the same thing? I saw my late husband go from being agnostic to becoming hyper-religious after he started having temporal lobe seizures. I had a similar experience with my ex-husband after he had a mini-stroke. There are thousands of testimonies from people with loved ones with a mental disorder who exhibited the same behavior.
BTW, both Fyodor Dostoyevsky and Lewis Carrol wrote about characters and things these characters experienced or saw (what the writers experienced personally while having seizures and auras). Both of these famous writers had temporal lobe epilepsy.
———————–
“If an epileptic seizure is focused in a particular sweet spot in the temporal lobe, a person won´t have motor seizures, but instead something more subtle. The effect is something like a cognitive seizure, marked by changes of personality, hyperreligiosity (an obsession with religion and feelings of religious certainity), hypergraphia (extensive writing on a subject, usually about religion), the false sense of an external presence, and, often, the hearing voices that are attributed to a god. Some fraction of history´s prophets, martyrs, and leaders appear to have had temporal lobe epilepsy.” Source:
David Eagleman — Incognito: The Secret Lives of the Brain
————
“A man in his late 20s with paranoid schizophrenia … believed he was selected by God to provide guidance for mankind. Antipsychotic medications prescribed by his psychiatrists diminished these abilities and reduced the voices, and therefore he would not take them.
He asked, “How do you know the voices aren’t real?” “How do you know I am not The Messiah?” He affirmed, “God and angels talked to people in the Bible.
As many as 60% of those with schizophrenia have religious grandiose delusions consisting of believing they are a saint, God, the devil, a prophet, Jesus, or some other important person.”
Source: The Journal of Neuropsychiatry and Clinical Neurosciences
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“So, it seems you’re claiming that they had lots and lots of books to select from and match up? How many would that be? And if you are going to put that argument forth, then why in the WORLD would they include all those “contradictions”??” – kathy
gospels of mary, and thomas…plus others…
but why include what they did? It was a committee. So the differing people on that committee had their favorites, each compromised to a degree – throwing this book out to keep the one they really liked, while keeping others they didnt like as much because another dude on the committee liked it a lot…
then there were others who werent looking that closely, who werent lining them up side by side to check every detail, but were looking the forest, and not the trees…
It’s really not hard to understand. You may feel like there are constrictions in the theory of evolution – well, how could that be if people were making it up? By your logic, a conservative person couldn’t admit there were contradictions the the theory you deem as foolish and vile, because people assembled it and would have omitted every error and problem.
surely you’re not saying that a group of people cannot make mistakes?
And why couldnt god make multiple religions that were all the true ones? There’s one god, but at the same time you believe in the three: father, son and holy ghost. And I doubt anything would be impossible for god, right?
So why couldnt there be one truth (god and the need for him), delivered in the muliple religions we have today? Surely you wouldnt question god’s in this would you? it would be very prideful and arrogant to do so. Surely god can deliver his word how he likes and surely we arent capable of understanding all of god’s way.
I believe this multi-text-doctrine-god religion must be true because I believe it, and because i’m sincere, and because when good things happen to me, that’s evidence of god taking care of me and rewarding me, and when bad things happen, then god is ether punishing me, or testing me, or allowing me to be tested. Can you deny such factual evidence? And what about the martyrs? every faith has them, and they wouldnt give their lives for nothing, so they must all be true. And jesus, buddha and Muhammad, (not mentioning all the others) all historical people from actual places – all with true moral teachings.
what more evidence do you need? why reject the truth of all religions and the true splendor of god’s multitude of graces, kathy?
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Kathy’s arguments condensed to five minutes:
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Ha, ha, ha. . . still laughing. . those guys in ties; gotta hand it to them! Bill O’Reilly eat your heart out. . .. .that was fabulous!!
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@ratamacue0
Thank’s for that link to Bruce’s blog. I’d totally lost track of him after he went off-line. Glad to see he’s back.
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“Nate, this IS evidence that goes towards the truth of the claims of the Bible. Your “argument” that anyone including accurate dates in their writings would have to also be inspired by God. So here I go.. YET AGAIN.. having to explain that it’s an ACCUMULATION of evidence, Nate.. did you really think I was putting forth accurate details as THE evidence? all by itself? You must have because you claimed that “reporters and historians” today would also be inspired.. when they don’t even make the claim of inspiration!” – kathy
So, kathy,
You’re saying that historical accuracy is evidence for god, but then someone points out that historical accuracy can be done without god, and outside the bible, you say that those dont count as being from god, because they dont claim to be speaking for god. is that correct?
If historical accuracy is good evidence for god, why does it need the claim? If a man was raised from the dead, do you think everyone should know that was the work of god, or do you think the miracle worker would have to claim it was from god so that everyone knew it didnt happen without god or by some other god?
And if historical accuracy needs the claim as being from god, because historical accuracy isnt a miracle and isnt like someone being raised from the dead, then what verifies the claim? or should we just assume that people who claim that they speak for god are telling the truth if they have some historical accuracies?
can you elaborate?
and nate’s blog is devoted to the inaccuracies of the bible -whether it be historical, scientific or internal. So instead of me riposting his articles, you could just read through those.
and can you provide what your idea of a contradiction is? Give an example, because I really cannot think of one that cant be “defended” the same way you defend the bible.
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“Someone wrote those stories and whether they are real people or characters in a story, they would classify as having a mental disorder if they went around today claiming the same thing”
If you believe they are made up stories then they are made up stories silly. goodness. You can’t draw scientific conclusions from fictitious characters. Have you fallen on your head? By that rationale all makers of Disney movies like Alladin, beauty and the beast and even Mulan are all expressions of mental disorders because they were spoken to by an imaginary beings in the stories. so I tell you what? Assume for a moment they are real and then go do a study about how that shows that Disney movies are associated with mental illness.
ROLF….that you pretend to be this intellectual – understanding the brain and then point to a study of what you elsewhere claim to be imaginary figures just shows how much of a fraud you are.
Sorry but you have displayed and SEALED the abject hypocrisy of your and other positions.
“Do you believe the homeless schizophrenics preaching in the streets that Jesus is coming back and that people are going to hell if they don’t get saved? And how is that any different than the preachers and televangelists screaming in the pulpits today, clutching their bibles and shaking them in the air”
They are mimicking you nit. People with mental illnesses mimic positions of authority and power. Some think they are abraham lincoln, some think they are aliens from outer space, some think they are Obama or a general. and no we don’t diagnose them as schizophrenics because they are preaching in the streets but because of other things like incoherent contradictory thoughts of their own. To hear your drop down dead empty headed foolishness everyone who believed in God including the founders of almost every science were mentally ill. Its VAST and I do mean VAST stupidity on your part.
“I saw my late husband go from being agnostic to becoming hyper-religious after he started having temporal lobe seizures. I had a similar experience with my ex-husband after he had a mini-stroke.”
Then maybe you just know how to pick em Nuero. Have you considered that? Maybe your selection process is the shared point of congruence or maybe the shared experience of lighting up a joint together? My father had a mini stroke and he didn’t go off the deep end and hes been a theist his entire life. Maybe the problem is that atheist and agnostics are weak minded and cant cope. Totally embarrassing to have to remind someone who runs around quoting “studies” but you don’t even understand the basics – that correlation does not mean causation.
“There are thousands of testimonies from people with loved ones with a mental disorder who exhibited the same behavior.”
Of course there are because “hearing voices” is a symptom of mental illness. does that mean that everyone who hears them is ill? if I come up behind you and whisper and you hear my voice that means you are schizophrenic? No it doesn’t. Mental illness has a wide rage of symptoms. So the whole thing comes down to whether some one actually is speaking to you or not. Thats why your ENTIRE ARGUMENT is circular. You assume there is no God so a few people in the Bible were mentally ill and then like a nit you don’t realize its circular and then present that as proof for your premise.
But here’s the rub that makes your incessantly stupidity on this even worse. lean forward and listen to get a clue…….precious few people in the bible record hearing the voice of God! Most prophets don’t tell us how they heard from God (and no it didn’t have to be a voice in their head). Worse for you and your VAST silliness Schizophrenia isn’t even diagnosed based on a single instance of having heard things and the progression of it over time does not make the victims of it write great literature that is included in the world’s best selling book.
Your whole incessant spiel is in fact not indicative of a thorough process of thinking in itself but please make me know when the “study” of Peter Pan shows empirically that wearing green tends toward mental ilness…….Rofl
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An excerpt from Gary’s letter:
“Fundamentalist/evangelical/orthodox/catholic Christianity is one big “house of cards”. It is based on so many ignorant assumptions that it is baffling how educated, civilized people living in the 21st century still believe it.
So, first, I owe Bruce a HUGE apology. And I should have come back to his blog to apologize alot sooner than today. I’m really sorry, Bruce! I’m sorry for behaving like the stereotypical hateful, self-righteous, judgmental fundamentalist Christian. I was an ass. I was a jerk. Please forgive me!
I have deconverted from Christianity. I have deconverted from the superstitious, ignorant, bigoted belief system of fundamentalist/orthodox Christianity. And I owe alot of that to Bruce for opening my eyes to the TRUTH. There may be a God…but it’s not the Christian god, because the Christian god does not exist.
If it means anything Bruce, despite all the hate mail you receive from Christians, know this: You have rescued one man and his family from this false, ancient, fear-invoking, middle-eastern cult.
Thank you, Bruce!”
——-
Like many of us, Gary had quite the journey, and he deeply feared going to hell. I really admire Gary for actually being open-minded enough to explore beyond his religion. Very few fundamentalists are willing to do this, and I believe it has to do with fear more than arrogance. They’ve been deeply programed to believe that “Satan, as a roaring lion, walks about seeking whom he may devour.” To have doubts or question is considered showing a lack of faith, therefore leaving one open to satanic attack. A brilliant strategy by the hierarchy to keep people loyal and keep the money flowing in.
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Mike, I didn’t expect you would be able to comprehend. 😉
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@William – you said:
I realize there’s some tongue in cheek here, but this is actually an option that a lot of people don’t even consider (although many of those stinky liberal believers do of course). I’ve heard so many apologists say “we know that it can’t be true that all religions are true because they are all contradictory”. In fact they even say this means that only one could be true. But a logical option that is always neglected is that bits and pieces of different religions could have spiritual truth in them, and that all the religions contain some false claims as well.
Whether there even is a spiritual realm at all is not something I am claiming knowledge either way here, but just wanted to hi-lite that the above possibility is often not even considered by the most strict of believers.
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Wow! That’s quite a tirade. Not quite sure why, but I have a ‘visual’ of gnashing of teeth and frothing around the mouth. Mental illness certainly does present itself in many forms. TBlacksman, YOU’VE just sealed MY opinion of you . .bet you can guess! 🙂
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“and nate’s blog is devoted to the inaccuracies of the bible -whether it be historical, scientific or internal. So instead of me riposting his articles, you could just read through those.”
The beautiful thing about nate’s blog is that almost every one of his articles are riddled with errors (after all he has actually argued that you should not have to reference the language a book was written in when studying it – sorry but such a silly non scholarly approach) or omissions. in fact usually HUGE blunders which he later tries to wave off.
” and can you provide what your idea of a contradiction is?
Thats easy. If any of the Gospels had said point blank that the women actually saw the stone being rolled away by the angel then you would have had your contradiction there. Instead nate had to fudge and assume things into the passage when it never says that .
“Give an example, because I really cannot think of one that cant be “defended” the same way you defend the bible”
and I can’t think of a a single fact presented against a contradiction that you would not try to fudge your way out of.
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