You know Kathy, we’ve been fairly blunt with you today. Flippant, too. And it’s tough when people talk to/about you that way. I’m sorry for that.
If we could cut through all the rhetoric for a second, I’d like to commiserate with you. A little over 4 years ago, I was a very dedicated Christian. I had some doubts, but they weren’t about the Christian faith, just my understanding of it.
I felt like there were problems in my beliefs about the gospel. I believed in a literal Hell, and I believed a lot of people would be going there. But I had a very hard time squaring that with a loving God. I had matured enough to realize that most people were pretty decent. Not perfect, certainly, but good people who cared about others and typically wanted to do the right thing. I didn’t think such people deserved Hell. In fact, like Paul, I often thought that if God would accept it, I’d gladly go to Hell myself, if it would save my friends and family. And if everyone else could be added into that deal too, even better.
So if I felt that way, could I be more compassionate than God? Of course not. But I had a very hard time finding anything in the Bible that backed up an idea that most people, regardless of creed or belief would be saved.
I didn’t give up though. I knew about Universalists, so I decided to read up on their reasons for thinking everyone went to Heaven. It sounded good, but I just wasn’t convinced by their arguments. I just didn’t see the Bible teaching such a doctrine, and I still believed the Bible was the inerrant word of God.
I was in a state of flux.
And that’s the position I was in when I first ran across articles that pointed out flaws in the Bible. I was shocked by what the articles said, but since I didn’t have any answers against them at the moment, I got busy with research. I didn’t even comment on the articles — I just went to work. It wasn’t about winning any arguments; it was simply a search for answers.
I think that frame of mind I was in made all the difference for me. Deep down, I was already struggling. The doctrines I had long believed in, and even taught to others, didn’t fit together in my mind as well as they once had.
That’s probably the difference between you and me. I get the feeling that you question nothing about your faith. Not trying to put you down about that; just making an observation.
For me, discovering that the Bible was not the perfect book I had always thought it to be, and finding out that some of these church leaders I had always admired knew of these problems but never spoke of them, helped me make sense of a lot of things. It took time, and it wasn’t easy to come to the realizations, but everything finally fell into place for me when I realized Christianity was just another religion. For the first time, I finally understood the sentiment of that line from “Amazing Grace,” I once was blind, but now I see…
I don’t know if that’s helpful to you at all. Maybe one day it will be. Maybe one day, something will make you ask a few questions, and you’ll think back to those non- believers who were so insistent that Christianity was certainly not the only way. If that day comes, I hope you’ll find this exchange helpful and realize you’re not alone.
Finding Truth 
“So, THEN, at this point, we have to “assess” all of the prominent religions.. and I think it’s a safe assumption that God would make sure that He would be in that mix.. and He DID do that, or, those who loved Him did that for Him knowing it was necessary. – Could you please make us a list of all of the “prominent religions” that you have thoroughly researched, in order to “assess” them?
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And so.. the deliberate ignorance continues…
And.. surprise! I KNEW the liberals could not resist “correcting” me about our special place in existence.. even when I said they would.. and added “watch”.. I KNEW that wouldn’t stop them.. you all can’t help it, the truth just gets under your skin so badly.. lol..
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And so.. the deliberate ignorance continues…
Only you can cure your own ignorance Kathy. We can lead you to facts, but we can’t make you think.
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And.. surprise! I KNEW the liberals could not resist “correcting” me about our special place in existence.. even when I said they would.. and added “watch”..
1. Your “prediction” is no evidence of the truth of your claims.
2. I already suggested pretty clearly (by my questions to you) that this was your position before you finally laid it out.
3. Gloat much?
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“A god that does not manifest in reality is indistinguishable from one that does not exist.”~Matt Dillahanty”
Matt Dillahanty is just another dishonest atheist who can’t defend his views.. he blocked me on twitter because he knew he couldn’t argue my points. The guy BLOCKED me for asking him questions.
And Ratamacue, I didn’t read all of your comment.. the first paragraph or two?.. can’t remember.. caused me to lose interest.
This last comment wasn’t as bad.. you said:
“I will not assume that we have the answers, or that we deserve them.”
That’s fine, that’s entirely YOUR prerogative.. just like it’s MINE to believe what I choose to believe.
“Did you ever truly consider these possibilities? Did you ever put the Bible to the test, to see if it withstands scrutiny–as the truth ought to? Did you ever ask yourself whether “faith” it’s really a virtue? ”
I’ve posted countless comments, .. THOUSANDS of words, on this blog.. please post those words that imply or claim that I am not applying objectivity.
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you all can’t help it, the truth just gets under your skin so badly..
I admit to taking the bait, but it’s not truth that gets under my skin–it’s falsehood, deception, deliberate ignorance, unfounded accusations, and the like.
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ratamacue0: “I guess Kathy doesn’t like me, since she ignored my direct questions.” – You get used to it.
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Matt Dillahanty is just another dishonest atheist who can’t defend his views.. he blocked me on twitter because he knew he couldn’t argue my points. The guy BLOCKED me for asking him questions.
Way to avoid addressing the point. And I can see why he blocked you. He wasn’t be dishonest—he doesn’t suffer fools lightly.
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Kathy, I think you’ve confused “correcting”, with “laughing at” —
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LoL. 8)
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“The guy BLOCKED me for asking him questions.” – NOOOOO! Really? I can’t imagine that!
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Honestly, there are very few people I “dislike”.. here’s one great example.. anyone responsible for things like this:
http://www.jillstanek.com/2014/07/insider-photo-verifies-planned-parenthood-abortion-quotas-awards/
“quotas” for abortions.. and AWARDS for those who exceed the set quotas. It doesn’t get much worse than this.
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I think I sent him 3 tweets total.. before he blocked me. Matt Dillahunty blocked me because he was AFRAID of me.. he debates prominent Christians in public forums.. he just couldn’t have a “nobody” out debate him on atheism.. and he knew that’s what was about to happen. He’s just another atheist who isn’t really looking for the truth.. he only cares about looking “right”.
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Kathy,
Following the first paragraph (which was me quoting you), I understand the first paragraph of my comment to you was pretty pointed. The second was a bit vulnerable. The point of these was not to instantly persuade you, but rather to get you to think that maybe not all of our reasons for nonbelief are as disingenuous as you think. Of course, feel free to actually address the points if you want.
Funny, it was mostly me quoting the middle paragraphs of my earlier comment.
It is your prerogative to believe as you like. What seems intuitive. What feels comfortable and gives hope. But staying there without critical examination is not how you find truth.
I don’t have the time at the moment, as I need to get to bed. Do note the “prerogative” quote above, though.
Also, you seem to forget that most of us here have believed something like you do now. I’d venture to say that we have a better understanding of your position and perspective than you do of ours. However, even when I was a Christian, and I thought that everyone really knows “in their hearts” that God created everything (Rom. 1, etc.), I don’t think I would have towed the hardline of accusations of all unbelievers like you have.
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Ratamacue.. no… no you don’t have a “better understanding”. Changing your position does not automatically give you a better understanding. Again, you need to back up your accusation of my lack of objectivity with MY words.. not your biased judgments. I’ve asked for direct evidence, of my OWN words from several people in the last couple of days… from Arch, Nate, Nan, William and Ruth.. and probably others.. I’ve gotten not ONE response to my direct requests. MAYBE you will be different.. but I do understand, it being late and all, that you “have to go to bed”.. (hadn’t heard that one yet)..
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“‘quotas’ for abortions.. and AWARDS for those who exceed the set quotas. It doesn’t get much worse than this.” – Actually, Kathy, I abhor that, but that me, as a Human being, and doesn’t mean there’s a god.
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“he just couldn’t have a ‘nobody’ out debate him on atheism..” – What do you mean? You couldn’t “out debate” a wet sponge!
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Kathy –
I gave you a direct quote of yours:
“I know of no evidence that Bush was lying.. yes, you posted a BOOK as your “proof” but didn’t even give the source.. so I just ignored it. Give your source, if I’m going to read all of that, I’d prefer the LEAST edited liberal version.. I just assume it’s not from an objective/ honest non liberal source.”
You are absolutely NOT being objective. You are dismissing other points of view and evidences out if hand simply because they don’t agree. That’s not objective. That’s not truth-seeking. That’s the complete opposite of what you claim to be doing.
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Clearly he just recognized a troll when he saw one.
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TBD.
Maybe not. But having held your position, and used and understood and believed apologetic arguments, and later coming to see the holes in them certainly helps.
This thread is a mess, that will take time. I hope to get to it later. I see Graham offered one, though.
Damn, woman–so many accusations of dishonesty! It’s late, and I have to get up early for work–which is going to suck on account of lack of sleep. Goodnight.
Parting thoughts:
– If the abortion quota is true, I agree with arch–that’s shitty, but not proof of Yahweh.
– Kathy, can you provide a link to your twitter conversation with Matt Dillahunty?
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The point is, Graham, that we have pointed out to her continuously that she is not being objective, yet she continues to rail that we haven’t.
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Oh, I know, Arch. But she asked for specific examples of her own words. Just thought I’d try (again) to see if she would ignore it or try to explain it away.
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Sorry Graham, you’re wrong.. I didn’t dismiss anything, I just requested the source of Arch’s information. And yes, I DO believe it likely is from a biased source.. so? I never said I wouldn’t read it.. or not apply objectivity. My believe that its from a biased source turns out to be true, why else would Arch not want to give this information??
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(C) All of the above.
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“why else would Arch not want to give this information??” – To prevent you from pulling your typical, non-objective stunt of dismissing it without reading it.
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