Agnosticism, Atheism, Bible Study, Christianity, Faith, God, Religion, Truth

Letter to Kathy Part 2

Nate

You know Kathy, we’ve been fairly blunt with you today. Flippant, too. And it’s tough when people talk to/about you that way. I’m sorry for that.

If we could cut through all the rhetoric for a second, I’d like to commiserate with you. A little over 4 years ago, I was a very dedicated Christian. I had some doubts, but they weren’t about the Christian faith, just my understanding of it.

I felt like there were problems in my beliefs about the gospel. I believed in a literal Hell, and I believed a lot of people would be going there. But I had a very hard time squaring that with a loving God. I had matured enough to realize that most people were pretty decent. Not perfect, certainly, but good people who cared about others and typically wanted to do the right thing. I didn’t think such people deserved Hell. In fact, like Paul, I often thought that if God would accept it, I’d gladly go to Hell myself, if it would save my friends and family. And if everyone else could be added into that deal too, even better.

So if I felt that way, could I be more compassionate than God? Of course not. But I had a very hard time finding anything in the Bible that backed up an idea that most people, regardless of creed or  belief would be saved.

I didn’t give up though. I knew about Universalists, so I decided to read up on their reasons for thinking everyone went to Heaven. It sounded good, but I just wasn’t convinced by their arguments. I just didn’t see the Bible teaching such a doctrine, and I still believed the Bible was the inerrant word of God.

I was in a state of flux.

And that’s the position I was in when I first ran across articles that pointed out flaws in the Bible. I was shocked by what the articles said, but since I didn’t have any answers against them at the moment, I got busy with research. I didn’t even comment on the articles — I just went to work. It wasn’t about winning any arguments; it was simply a search for answers.

I think that frame of mind I was in made all the difference for me. Deep down, I was already struggling. The doctrines I had long believed in, and even taught to others, didn’t fit together in my mind as well as they once had.

That’s probably the difference between you and me. I get the feeling that you question nothing about your faith. Not trying to put you down about that; just making an observation.

For me, discovering that the Bible was not the perfect book I had always thought it to be, and finding out that some of these church leaders I had always admired knew of these problems but never spoke of them, helped me make sense of a lot of things. It took time, and it wasn’t easy to come to the realizations, but everything finally fell into place for me when I realized Christianity was just another religion. For the first time, I finally understood the sentiment of that line from “Amazing Grace,” I once was blind, but now I see…

I don’t know if that’s helpful to you at all. Maybe one day it will be. Maybe one day, something will make you ask a few questions, and you’ll think back to those non- believers who were so insistent that Christianity was certainly not the only way. If that day comes, I hope you’ll find this exchange helpful and realize you’re not alone.

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Published by Nate

2,018 thoughts on “Letter to Kathy Part 2”

  1. RE: “You say that martyrdom is evidence that christianity is truly from god” – I don’t see that, I see it only as there being people gullible enough and superstitious enough to believe that a worse fate awaits them than loss of life if they behave otherwise, much as the Muslim suicide bombers do.

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  2. Neuro, good point. I was talking about the original language as opposed to the original text, but i get your point, we dont know the original words that were used, because the copies we have or that were used to translate from were so far removed from the originals…

    I’ve said before that it is was the internal issues of the bible that caused me to leave, but since then I’ve been able to see all the other issues, logical, implied, etc.

    I wonder how I ever found it believable.

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  4. Kathy say: “Not ‘homophobic’ Ron.. just choosing to obey God over pleasing you.”

    That’s right, Kathy—you CHOOSE to follow the rules ascribed to some ancient tribal god worshiped by the Jews. And that’s certainly your prerogative. But lest you’ve forgotten:

    – you live in the United States of America, not ancient Judea
    – the U.S. is a constitutional republic, not a theocratic monarchy
    – not everyone subscribes to your religious beliefs.

    Which means that ancient Jewish laws have zero application for anyone residing outside of Israel.

    Your “valid points” are neither valid nor backed by any reality. In a previous comment I listed all the countries that have adopted legal same-sex marriage and asked you to identify which ones have suffered ill effects as a consequence. Thus far you’ve identified none.

    And the reason why the U.S isn’t mentioned in Jewish prophecy is because the men who penned it weren’t even aware that North America existed, let alone concerned about its future role on the world stage—a clear indication that their god’s geographic knowledge was as severely limited as their own.

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  5. Typo, Ruth? I think those old men said we should NOT be eating those things, they didn’t have refrigeration in those days, and meat lay out in the sun for hours, with flies crawling over it. Now I like a good pork chop as much as the next fellow, in fact, my Mama used to hang one around my neck so the family dog would play with me, but I think that by “desires,” Kathy meant something a little more sexual.

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  6. Typo, Ruth? – Oopsie… 😳

    Yes, I’m sure she did. I just meant that those old men who died three thousand years ago shouldn’t necessarily be the authority on what healthy living is today.

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  7. @hayden

    You wrote:

    “The church is just trying to get God to show up. And it looks like they succeeded. These children in the video are happy. Just because they are crying does not mean they are hurt. It’s just tears of joy and I have been there myself.”

    I consider this the emotional manipulation of young children.

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  8. Martyrdom is not evidence of what IS, but of what is BELIEVED to be.
    (DAMN that was profound! Sometimes I amaze myself!)

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  9. Martyrdom is not evidence of what IS, but of what is BELIEVED to be.
    (DAMN that was profound! Sometimes I amaze myself!)

    That’s a succinct way of saying what we’ve all been saying…for days. I doubt this will be as profound to certain people as it is to others.

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  10. Proverbs 28:26New King James Version (NKJV)

    26 He who trusts in his own heart is a fool,
    But whoever walks wisely will be delivered.

    weeping isn’t necessarily as sign of emotionalism over intellectualism, but many christians do talk about how they feel god is leading this way or that, or they can just feel god’s presence…

    Maybe they’re just fools…

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  12. RE: “not everyone subscribes to your religious beliefs” – a true statement, Ron, but I’m not sure that even you, with your wisdom beyond your years, see the full ramifications of it. Christians are quick to point out that the percentage of Christians in the US is in the 70 percentile range, while atheism comes in at a lowly 20%. BUT – according to the Center for the Study of Global Christianity (CSGC) at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary (probably NOT a “liberal” institution), there are approximately 41,000 Christian denominations in the world, a large portion of those in the US, so there is a good chance that fewer accept Kathy’s narrow-minded, self-righteous view of Christianity, as accept our point of view.

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  13. Black, unmarked chopper hovering overhead – I think my ride’s here, but they’ll never take me alive, I won’t go back, I WON’T!
    (Oh, this isn’t Twitter, is it?)

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  14. “I’ve said before that it is was the internal issues of the bible that caused me to leave, but since then I’ve been able to see all the other issues, logical, implied, etc.”

    Same here, William. When I was a Christian, I worked for American Family Radio, a part of the American Family Association. While working there I saw some of the most vile behavior and massive campaigns against homosexuals (which incite hate crimes against homosexuals). It was eye-opening for me and made me sick to think I was a part of this “tribe”.

    Even as a Christian, I knew, intuitively, this belief was wrong. Their doctrines and beliefs rely on nothing more than hearsay. Fundamentalists and conservative Catholics have an incessant need to control others — much like the behaviors of dictators. This behavior is commonly found in people with attachment disorders. It is anti-social behavior and there is a clinical classification for that — mental illness.

    “I wonder how I ever found it believable.

    Just goes to show you the power of indoctrination — mind control.

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  15. @charity … thanks for the chuckles. But now I’m curious: What was the top answer? Was it money? Knowledge? STDs?

    @arch

    The religious right likes to play it both ways. When it comes to imposing their religious beliefs on others they claim that Christians are simply exercising their rights as a majority. Yet when things don’t go their way they argue that they’re being persecuted because America has turned its back on God.

    Heads they win, tales you lose.

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  16. “I doubt this will be as profound to certain people as it is to others.” – well I’M certainly writing it down, I’m always looking for good quotations, and this one’s a doozy!

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  18. @Ron
    Sorry, that’s all the clip showed. 🙂

    @Everybody
    Have a good one!

    Peace and love to all!

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  21. While working there I saw some of the most vile behavior and massive campaigns against homosexuals (which incite hate crimes against homosexuals). It was eye-opening for me and made me sick to think I was a part of this “tribe”.

    Ok, everyone sing it out loud in unison:

    And they’ll know we are Christians by our love, by our love,
    Yes, they’ll know we are Christians by our love.     🙂

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