You know Kathy, we’ve been fairly blunt with you today. Flippant, too. And it’s tough when people talk to/about you that way. I’m sorry for that.
If we could cut through all the rhetoric for a second, I’d like to commiserate with you. A little over 4 years ago, I was a very dedicated Christian. I had some doubts, but they weren’t about the Christian faith, just my understanding of it.
I felt like there were problems in my beliefs about the gospel. I believed in a literal Hell, and I believed a lot of people would be going there. But I had a very hard time squaring that with a loving God. I had matured enough to realize that most people were pretty decent. Not perfect, certainly, but good people who cared about others and typically wanted to do the right thing. I didn’t think such people deserved Hell. In fact, like Paul, I often thought that if God would accept it, I’d gladly go to Hell myself, if it would save my friends and family. And if everyone else could be added into that deal too, even better.
So if I felt that way, could I be more compassionate than God? Of course not. But I had a very hard time finding anything in the Bible that backed up an idea that most people, regardless of creed or belief would be saved.
I didn’t give up though. I knew about Universalists, so I decided to read up on their reasons for thinking everyone went to Heaven. It sounded good, but I just wasn’t convinced by their arguments. I just didn’t see the Bible teaching such a doctrine, and I still believed the Bible was the inerrant word of God.
I was in a state of flux.
And that’s the position I was in when I first ran across articles that pointed out flaws in the Bible. I was shocked by what the articles said, but since I didn’t have any answers against them at the moment, I got busy with research. I didn’t even comment on the articles — I just went to work. It wasn’t about winning any arguments; it was simply a search for answers.
I think that frame of mind I was in made all the difference for me. Deep down, I was already struggling. The doctrines I had long believed in, and even taught to others, didn’t fit together in my mind as well as they once had.
That’s probably the difference between you and me. I get the feeling that you question nothing about your faith. Not trying to put you down about that; just making an observation.
For me, discovering that the Bible was not the perfect book I had always thought it to be, and finding out that some of these church leaders I had always admired knew of these problems but never spoke of them, helped me make sense of a lot of things. It took time, and it wasn’t easy to come to the realizations, but everything finally fell into place for me when I realized Christianity was just another religion. For the first time, I finally understood the sentiment of that line from “Amazing Grace,” I once was blind, but now I see…
I don’t know if that’s helpful to you at all. Maybe one day it will be. Maybe one day, something will make you ask a few questions, and you’ll think back to those non- believers who were so insistent that Christianity was certainly not the only way. If that day comes, I hope you’ll find this exchange helpful and realize you’re not alone.
Finding Truth 
“Let’s be honest about this, though: Mike has brought a lot of this treatment on himself (not the remarks about the child he cares for) – ” Ruth
lets be honest about it. I really don’t care what you give. Its lightweight and hypocritical stuff and after Williams trying to use my “adopted” mentally handicapped daughter in an insult against me you all have the credibility of a fruit fly (less)and I care even less about what you have to say. Your -well you shouldn’t say that dear but I understand why you did – puts you right in there with them
So be my guess show how much lower you can go as a community. I know you will try desperately to put questioning an adults choice of mates with dragging a little handicapped girl into an insult as on par but that just makes you more the biased community you are. As for the mental questions and insinuations of Neuro you can try to bail her out with your narrative that she was just giving back what I gave but she contradicts you by claiming it wasn’t that but alleged legitimate questions 😉
Still, great way to flush your narrative of being more reasonable down the toilet there Ruth. At least your little game was exposed pretty quick. You did try to SOUND like it there for awhile but the hypocrisy just couldn’t keep from bubbling to the surface The good thing about your recent posts is they are most self defeating.
How does one come here with an agenda because of what the blog says without having come here first without an agenda not knowing what it said? Silly narrative and shows how biased you are. As for your other fib about dripping with disdain and who started that? You really think you can sell that Ark and Arch and even William just responded when there are posts of theirs long before I arrived that say otherwise? Your caricature that people come here and just start typing before reading is silly. By the time people start posting they know a lot more about what you have written than your shallow perspective allows
told you before that narrative will not work with people like Ark, arch and William in your midst. You can try but the word hypocrisy just keeps coming to mind. Keep on trucking about your bias while pretending you are above it
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“lets be honest about it. I really don’t care what you give. Its lightweight and hypocritical stuff and after Williams trying to use my “adopted” mentally handicapped daughter in an insult against me you all have the credibility of a fruit fly (less)and I care even less about what you have to say.” – mike
which you blew out of proportion and which I apologized for, unlike you for using Neuro’s dead husbands to attack her.
talk about hypocrisy. Talk about biased. You have a lot of first hand experience with them all.
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You continue to amaze me, Mike. Not in a good way. You remind me of a quote I read when I was a teenager. “The amount of pain we inflict upon others is what we feel inside.” I tell myself that when I am dealing with difficult people – and reading comments on blogs. Peace to you; I honestly cannot fathom your bitterness.
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“His points are not very strong, but he thinks he’s making them appear stronger when he precedes them with “VAST silliness” and “vacuous silliness” so that anyone who is biased in the Christianity camp thinks he knows what he’s talking about. ”
seriously what else can you say Ruth? are you of the kind to admit when your points have been substantially dealt a blow? of course not! Look at your if a people wants a country back really really badly they will get it back argument? lol how many different ancient cultures rebukes you? It is and was VAST silliness but its all you got so you trudge along regardless. Before that it was trying to save Nate’s there are not fulfilled prophecies at all barf and before that trying to switch gears to Adam and eve because you couldn’t take the supernatural ramifications of our previous discussion and before that begging a rain check that you know a materialistic answer will be found without evidence claim for abiogenesis.
So strategy? Nope . it was and is VAST silliness.
“He has also said that he’s only stuck around to help Kathy out and make sure she doesn’t get sucked into the atheist trap of doubting her beliefs and potentially decoverting, while also saying he doesn’t believe anyone does actually deconvert. They were never “true believers” to begin with. So if Kathy did get sucked in and did lose her faith (not that I’m saying I think she will, mind) wouldn’t that mean that she just wasn’t a true believer? That she was never a “real” Christian?”
And let me guess given your kind of nitwitish approach to contradictions (which lets face it you usually stay out of fully engage debating because you don’t know what you would be talking about) you think that is one too eh?
actually yes IF reading your peoples weak stuff she lost what beliefs she had she would not have been a true Christian (just like you exposed you were never one a few weeks back) but why would i want her to fall into a trap that would take her further away from becoming one ? think .. engage the brain instead of your bias.
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VAST silliness
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Are you saying Kathy may not be a true Christian then Mike?
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“which you blew out of proportion”
LOL….what an apology eh. Using a handicapped little girl to insult me with was not anything of any big proportion eh sparky? Yep still waaaaaay beneath her. keep kidding yourself there.
” unlike you for using Neuro’s dead husbands to attack her.”
First as usual you are a liar. I apologized for a statement that none of you even raised. the rest which some did object to? You want to hear the living truth sparky. Here it is.
If Victoria wants to claim the suicide of her husband is off limits then heres a thought – you all INCLUDING her should respect that and put it off limits -. not try to make use of it as a point for atheism and a debate about religion. The minute you do and try to take a complex disastrous situation and try and make it a point for an agenda its fair game to say hey maybe there were other issues and maybe the scapegoating of a suicide on just one single party is wrong and yes maybe there were issues long before the illness that the illness just brought out. I HAVE NO WAY O F KNOWING and neither does anyone given the thought processes involved in suicide.
If you open that narrative to attack Christians or fundamentalists in general as you most certainly do then you open the door for others to raise other issues. Why something like a suicide with all the complexities and issues of the mind and soul has to be used for a theistic OR an atheistic agenda is beyond me. I can perhaps understand her perhaps getting some solace from it (although she claims otherwise) but the rest of you attaching yourselves to that and arguing along with that for an atheistic agenda is just desperate..
Chew on that call it vile or whatever you wish. You in particular I care nothing about opinion wise more so than even the others given your usage of mental illness even worse than Neuro’s ad homs.
.and no theres nothing sinister or wrong about perhaps being attracted to the same kind of person without knowing it. it may or may not be true but its hardly impossible given most of us do tend to go for the same kind more than once (and incidentally kind does not mean mentally ill… it can be something that leads to it in some and not in others or any sundry of things we don’t know). Many times brain injuries bring out things that were there before but restrained
but again the whole idea of making it some point against religion in general or pro atheist is just off to me abut cannot be rationally be complained for mentioning counter indicators if you insist on making it part of your narrative against theists.
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“Are you saying Kathy may not be a true Christian then Mike?”
I am saying Howie what I think kathy would agree with – knowing someones heart beyond what they say on the internet CANNOT be 100%. If they say something that is just not christian then you can know they are not but beyond that you can’t be sure.
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Yeah, I’m pretty sure she’d agree Mike. I’ve asked you this before and can’t blame you for not answering. I really am curious how someone can know for themselves if they are truly Christian. I know what my pastors and friends used to tell me, but I’d like to know what you think.
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“The feeling is mutual, my dear. *hugs*” – So THIS is what it feels like to get bowled over by a tsunami of estrogen –!
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“I’ve presented the compelling corroborative evidence over and over.” – That simply isn’t true, Kathy – you have repeatedly said that Christian martyrs were part of your “compelling evidence,” but when I ask for names of the martyrs and references to their deaths, I get crickets. I’m beginning to understand who Mikey meant when he said he took a girl with mental issues under his wing.
“I’ve STILL not gotten a valid answer for which religion (or scientific explanation) has more compelling evidence than Christianity.” – have any idea how the Legend of Santa Claus began? Well, I’m about to tell you.
Nicholas, who would ultimately become cannonized by the Church, was a monk in a small town in eastern Europe. Though he had taken a vow of poverty, he was actually a very rich man, having inherited his family fortune. Since he had no desire to profit from his fortune, he spent his life giving it away to those he found worthy and in need. According to the legend, there was a man in his town, a very poor tradesman, who had three daughters. He could not afford to feed his daughters, but neither could they marry and leave home, as he hadn’t the money for the dowry that each girl was required to present to her husband. One evening, Nicholas walked by the open window of the tradesman’s house and anonymously tossed a bag of coins through the window, sufficient to pay the oldest girl’s dowry (he later, in time, did the same for the other, younger daughters), and it just so happened that the girls had washed their stockings that evening, and had hung them by the fireplace to dry – the money landed in the stocking of the eldest girl! “Santa Claus” is simply a corruption of “Saint Nicholas.”
I’ve no doubt that there are other stories regarding the origin of Santa, so which of them has the most “compelling evidence”? None, because they all involve a jolly fat man being pulled through the sky by eight flying reindeer, delivering gifts to children all over the world in a single night. That’s something you can’t seem to get through your head, as soon as you trot out a legend about a magic man that lives in the sky, no matter how many people believed in it enough to give their lives for it, it’s still a crock of crap – more fools they.
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“lets be honest about it. I really don’t care what you give.” – Wow, that entire comment and the one that followed it were very slurred, Mike – have we driven you to drink? Maybe getting a little froth on your keyboard? Wipe your chin on your sleeve and pull on your big girl panties.
How long do you think you can milk that “poor little mentally-handicapped girl” bit? From where I stand, it has no mileage left – in fact, weighed against all of the crap you’ve pulled over the last couple of weeks, it pales in comparison.
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“Yeah, I’m pretty sure she’d agree Mike. I’ve asked you this before and can’t blame you for not answering”
If your thinking my not answering is some point then you are wrong. its not a hard question but frankly I just might not have taken your questions seriously as I don’t any question asked here anymore. It might be that you don’t like the answer but the bible is petty clear on it. Let me put it this way
Its like wedding vows. People say they mean em because there are various levels of introspection and self honesty. I know three couples that when I went to their wedding I knew that was it – their last wedding. they were that kind both man and woman fully committed . decade and more still ticking and going strong. However most of my friends I was like I think so but we’ll see.
You are a real Christian when you are committed and mean it but thats open to the same human conditions. Saying it even to yourself doesn’t make it so. I have had a few friends that seemed to have meant their wedding vows and then saw someone else and that was that
What would you say of the marriage vows they made? That they meant it or not? forever until death do part was kind of short and for those thst were married longer it was just a matter of bailing when the right time came . this is what the NT teaches – when the seed goes down all the way it stays and brings forth fruit when it doesn’t it has no root and is just waiting for the right time to come along to dry up
If its conceivable that some one could actually lose a real commitment i have not seen a single thing presented here on nate’s blogs or any of the others that poses the kind of proof that you all claim you have to make someone abandoned their real faith
All of your (all “your”s are collective not you personally Howie) contradictions are easily explainable with real alternatives presented by the text, culture or history and your claims on historicity problems are all based on egyptian chronology with all of its faults and already real examples of being wrong
The thing with skeptical inquiry is that it almost never is skeptical. It usually relies on trusting without question one side over the other. I see all the evidence in the world that most of you just switched your dogmas. Too many of your arguments rely on consensus and when I ask for the primary evidence all is heard its crickets.
At the very least I would expect real Christians that fought for their faith because of their commitment to have overturned all stones but instead I get silly arguments as to why the stones never needed turning like for example Nate and Will that the translations should be enough and we shouldn’t have to reference the original languages. Nan’s claim that consensus is enough and arch’s duck and run that a quote from finkelstein is deafening primary evidence without any real primary evidence. Nate has been caught with word meanings he had no idea of and admitted not hearing before. he and others of you have been flabbergasted by explanations you even claim some I made up on my own that had you read more than the likes of till you would have seen in multiple commentaries
What Husband that loves his wife would believe her to be a liar on the basis of translations of what she said rather than digging into the language themselves? What person leaving the God they said they loved would not know all the answers given and yet over and over and over in debates you have been told things by me you OBVIOUSLY didn’t know and that were sitting right there for anyone who studied. Whether you accepted them or not is one thing but not even the point. The fact that you didn’t even know some of the key ones in almost every debate I have had on here is the main issue. it shows where your feet never tread
to quote Nate. I’ve seen too much . You’ve demonstrated so much you didn’t know that would be known by someone digging deep for the truth with a genuine commitment to God that – like it or not be offended or not I know its all a fraud even if its one you believe of yourselves
and to round it all off a few of you have ended up saying things that betray that you don’t even understand basic Christian teaching
So there you got a nice long answer. 🙂
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“From where I stand,”
Yo arch its you…..why would I care where you stand again? 🙂
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“Maybe getting a little froth on your keyboard? Wipe your chin on your sleeve and pull on your big girl panties.”
I KNEW IT!
but no us guys do not all wear that Arch. thats just ahem your thing.
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“as soon as you trot out a legend about a magic man that lives in the sky, no matter how many people believed in it enough to give their lives for it, it’s still a crock of crap – more fools they.”
He’s right Kathy It has to be a white everything out of absolutely nothing white fairy . didn’t you watch his load of nonsense unscientificially verifiable video? You have to get you one of those Krauss fairy thinga magigies and then he will say you are cooking with gas 🙂
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“If they say something that is just not christian then you can know they are not” – I think that’s Mikey’s admission that we can be sure he’s not —
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” I think that’s Mikey’s admission that we can be sure he’s not –”
An atheist tying to claim to know who is a christian or not is kind of out of all of your leagues Arch. Sorry. stick to questions you can answer like
did your wearing panties thing start before gunsmoke went off the air or as a result of the trauma of it going off the air?
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Where did I cross the line ??????
Mike said, ““Hey Arch 🙂 Whats next? I might cause her to kill herself? lol”
I said, “Now who’s making light of a serious comment ? Yes Mike , this has happened many times before and yet you laugh it off.”
Mike’s melodramatic comment, “Wheres the serious comment. you silly person you? Do any of you know what I provide for her but you are making comments about how someone being like a dad to her is a bad thing? too stupid. is this where I should say YOU crossed a line?
Yes I think it shows just that by your own standards. SO let me return the favor 😉
You are a sick and scummy set for trying to back up the idea that someone taking on a mentally handicapped child to be like a father to her is a bad thing simply because that person has issues with you on a blog
Sick and hypocritical.
tell us all what mentally handicapped children you have stepped forward to help because I’ve never heard you say a word about doing that. Hurry up? make up some imaginary children.
and yes…. lol….at the way you guys think. less than twelve hours after taking issue with me saying an adult might have picked a certain kind of guy you are trying to berate the action of helping out a handicapped little girl.
and I’d bet cash there will be no apologies form you and Arch for it either.
Like I said….anything goes if its in the support of your beloved dopamine rush atheist agenda.
Mike, like so many here have already said , you are always looking for a fight. If you can’t find one you create one.
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Ah never mind thats personal stuff for you. have good night arch 🙂
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I have allowed Mike to bring out the worst in me rather than walk away. I have wallowed in his mud. It’s time for a shower.
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We must really be wearing you down, Mike – even your sarcasm is getting weaker and weaker – you’re really losing it.
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oops I think I screwed up the blockquote on that last one. That first sentence was a quote of yours Mike. The rest was me.
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Arch,
“That’s something you can’t seem to get through your head, as soon as you trot out a legend about a magic man that lives in the sky, no matter how many people believed in it enough to give their lives for it, it’s still a crock of crap – more fools they.”
“legends” don’t have witnesses who gave their lives to testify to the truth of what they are preaching. God and Santa are not comparable, the evidence isn’t comparable. I don’t even know of anyone of adult agewho claims santa is real .. and there are / have been billions who claim Jesus is real.. and thousands who’ve given their lives.
Also, Santa doesn’t have a Book full of witnesses claiming he exists. Santa doesn’t have fulfilled prophecies to support his existence. And there’s no archaeological evidence for Santa.
Yours and Williams need to dismiss all of the real evidence I’ve mentioned over and over is very sad Arch. I’m not trying to be condescending here.. it is just really sad.
““I’ve STILL not gotten a valid answer for which religion (or scientific explanation) has more compelling evidence than Christianity.” – have any idea how the Legend of Santa Claus began? Well, I’m about to tell you.”
I got a story about Santa Claus… but STILL no answer to my question of which religion has more evidence for it’s truth than Christianity…. or a simple honest acknowledgment that Christianity has the most compelling evidence for it’s Truth… STILL no answer … from ANYONE. Why is that??
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