Well, after breaking 2000 comments on the previous thread, I think it’s time to move to a new one. Feel free to continue the conversation here.
Also, I want to make a note about future posts. The tone on this blog for the last month or so has been decidedly different than what it used to be. While that’s definitely made things interesting, I’d like to move back to a tone more in line with the way things used to be. So going forward, I want the comments on all new posts to remain civil. We can all make our points, and I expect to see a wide range of opinions. But I don’t want to get into name-calling and bashing when we can’t all agree on particular issues. Let’s try to stay focused on the points and not get side-tracked with personal stuff. Let’s also keep each comment substantive so we don’t rack up so many comments in such a short period of time that it’s hard for everyone to keep track.
If you don’t feel like you can participate within those guidelines, then feel free to continue posting within this thread (and any future “Kathy” threads, if they’re needed), because I won’t be enforcing any guidelines here. But if you want to comment on any other posts, you’ll need to abide by the rules I just laid out. Otherwise, your comment will be subject to deletion, and after a warning, you might find yourself banned from at least that thread, if not the entire blog.
If there are any questions, let me know.
Thanks
Finding Truth 
“Christians were being PERSECUTED while Jesus was alive” – REALLY? Who would those have been? How many Christians were there when Yeshua was allegedly alive?
“in spite of persecution and massacres of Christians for following Jesus, the faith GREW!” – That’s right, Kathy, for a number of reasons:
• First of all, unlike most other religions, Christianity is a proselytizing religion, it’s the obligation of Christians to drag others into their fantasy.
• It has an extreme reward/punishment system – eternal paradise for those who accept it, and eternal punishment for those who don’t – it takes a great deal of courage to risk rejecting such a belief system.
• The adoption of Christianity by Roman Emperor Constantine guaranteed Christianity’s future, and had nothing to do with its veracity.
“People aren’t going to sacrifice themselves in these large numbers for a lie..” – how many young Americans died looking for Bush’s fabricated “Weapons of Mass Destruction”? Just like our young Americans, as well as English and Australians, they didn’t know it wasn’t true.
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“Perhaps he’d have more to say on the matter if he were still here.” – Oh, I think you could count on it —
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“ALL of the authors are either LYING or they are not.‘ – Why, Kathy? Why does it have to be “either/or”?
First of all, those who wrote Genesis, for the most part, wrote on the basis of folk tales that had been around for at least a thousand years, and like most folk tales, they grew and grew with the passage of time – check out those that are strictly American and that have only been around a hundred or so years: Paul Bunyon, Pecos Bill, John Henry, etc. They never even questioned the stories of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob/Israel and Moses – after all, they had no way of checking their veracity – they just wrote them down as if they were true, with no actual intention of lying. I’ve already told you of Reverend Weems, who fabricated the story of little George W – Washington, that is – and the cherry tree, but that story was still in textbooks when I was a kid – were the publishers lying? Of course not, they were just reporting what they had been told, without making a great deal of effort to examine the truth of it.
St. Nicholas was a kindly old Eastern European priest – just look at how his legend has grown over a few hundred years, from being a priest who, through happenstance of birth, inherited a great deal of money and gave it away, helping people, to being a little fat man in a red suit who flies through the night sky each Xmas Eve, delivering toys to children. This is a great example of how folk tales grow.
The Priestly Source, writing Gen 1 in captivity in Babylon in the 6th century BCE, rewrote the creation story, feeling that the Yahwist Source, in writing Gen 2 in 950 BCE, 300 years earlier, had described a god who was too human, and felt that god should be more ethereal, and not pop down to Earth for walks “in the cool of the day,” play hide-and-seek with Adam and Eve, or sew clothes for them on the Celestial Singer, as in Gen 2 and 3, so they wrote of a god who remained in his heaven, as a king might, and sent servants to carry out the menial tasks.
Research The Documentary Hypothesis, Kathy – you just might learn something. Try being objective – who knows, you might like it. (HINT: truly objective people don’t divide the world into “liberals” and those who think correctly.)
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RE your like to “Christian.com,” Kathy:
“The New Testament tells of the fate of only two of the apostles: Judas, who betrayed Jesus and then went out and hanged himself, and James the son of Zebedee, who was executed by Herod about 44 AD (Acts 12:2).” (emphasis, mine) – or maybe Judas threw himself off a cliff and popped his stomach open, depending on whom you believe —
Maybe you overlooked this part, Kathy:
“Reports and legends abound and they are not always reliable, but it is safe to say that the apostles went far and wide as heralds of the message of the risen Christ. An early legend says they cast lots and divided up the world to determine who would go where, so all could hear about Jesus.” (emphasis,mine)
Andrew: “in Greece, where he is said to have been crucified.” – Said? Who said this? Fail.
“Doubting” THOMAS: “They claim that he died there when pierced through with the spears of four soldiers.</em" – who claims it? Fail.
MATTHEW: “Some of the oldest reports say he was not martyred, while others say he was stabbed to death in Ethiopia.” Fail.
BARTHOLOMEW: “There are various accounts of how he met his death as a martyr for the gospel.” – Hmmmmm — Fail.
PHILIP: “in Asia Minor, where he converted the wife of a Roman proconsul. In retaliation the proconsul had Philip arrested and cruelly put to death.” Are there records of this, or is this just another legend?
“Polycarp, who was only converted in the year 80, enjoyed his conversation for some time, consequently St. Philip must have lived to a very advanced age.</em"
"No information is given in the New Testament about when Philip was born or died. Eusebius records that Polycrates, 2nd century Bishop of Ephesus, wrote that Philip was almost crucified in Phrygia and later buried in Hieropolis. Tradition has it that his death was around 54 CE.”
“He died of natural causes according to one tradition but, according to another, of crucifixion, accounting for his other medieval symbol of a tall cross.
JAMES the son of Alpheus: “…is one of at least three James referred to in the New Testament. There is some confusion as to which is which, but this James is reckoned to have ministered in Syria. The Jewish historian Josephus reported that he was stoned and then clubbed to death.”
Before you take the word of a man like Josephus, you need to look into what kind of man he was. He was a traitor to his own people. He fought the Romans in the First Jewish-Roman War of 66–73, when he was drafted as a commander of the Galilean forces. According to Josephus, he was trapped in a cave with forty of his companions in July 67. The Romans asked the group to surrender, but they refused. Josephus suggested a method of collective suicide: they drew lots and killed each other, one by one, counting to every third person – Josephus fixed the lots so that his name would come out last – the sole survivor of this process was Josephus (IMAGINE THAT!), who surrendered to the Roman forces and became a prisoner.
Josephus claimed the Jewish Messianic prophecies that initiated the First Roman-Jewish War made reference to Vespasian becoming Emperor of Rome. In response Vespasian decided to keep Josephus as a hostage and interpreter. After Vespasian did become Emperor in 69, he granted Josephus his freedom, at which time Josephus assumed the emperor’s family name of Flavius.
Vespasian arranged for the widower Josephus to marry a captured Jewish woman, who ultimately left him. About 71, Josephus married an Alexandrian Jewish woman as his third wife, whom he later divorced. Around 75, he married as his fourth wife, a Greek Jewish woman from Crete.
Author Joseph Raymond calls Josephus “the Jewish Benedict Arnold” for betraying his own troops at Jotapata.
The Jewish Virtual library relates: “So long as we retain some skepticism, his writings provide the greatest insight into what happened to the Jewish people during that five hundred year period.” (emphasis, mine)
Josephus had no first-hand knowledge of any of this, only the second-, third-, and likely many other-hand knowledge of any of the events about which he wrote.
You didn’t bother to write anything, Kathy, only to leave a link which I needed to read, despite the fact that you refuse to read any links we leave. Still, I’ve done this, and could have looked into the other apostles as well, but just with these, I’ve done far more work responding to you, than you have in any of your responses to me, so I’m not writing any more for you to not read and never consider. I asked you for sources, and you gave me a Christian website – had I given you a link to an atheist website, you’d have screamed, “LIBERAL!” at the top of your fingertips, yet I, unlike you, can maintain an objective, open mind. I took what your site had to say, and added to it independent research I did.
It’s all BS, Kathy – you’ll never believe that, and I’ll never believe anything else.
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@Kathy
“You didn’t address the point about it being impossible to dismiss the entire Bible as writings by people who are “mistaken”,.. pick any page out of the Book and read it.. sorry, it “doesn’t fly”.. ALL of the authors are either LYING or they are not. You are only fooling yourselves with the explanations of them being “mistaken” or “mentally ill”. It’s extremely weak.” – kathy
This has been addressed a few time before, but you may have missed it. Saying that the bible is either true or it’s a bunch of lies isnt entirely accurate. The accurate way to put it is, it’s either 100% truth, or it isnt.
Homer’s Iliad has some truth in it that is supported by archaeology, but no one (that i know of) claims that it is 100% accurate since it has some accuracy. Nor do thy say it is 100% false, since there are some false things in it.
My personal opinion is that the authors thought that what they were writing were mostly true, that they were making sense of everything that happened and trying to co-mingle it with what they thought was supposed to happen.
We’ve seen this happen. Preacher or commentary authors, they’ll make an absolute assertion that “the bible says this or that…” but when looking in the bible, it’s not there. They fully believe that what they said was right, but because it’s not written in the bible, they need to help everyone understand the bible the right way – their way.
And we all know that the bible was heavily edited. There were other books that were in use prior to the catholics canonizing scripture, but were tossed aside when they canonized it.
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Kathy,
“Christians were being PERSECUTED while Jesus was alive and it only got WORSE as time went on.. this is when false religions die out.. when they disappear forever just as all those false ancient gods did.. but in spite of persecution and massacres of Christians for following Jesus, the faith GREW! It grew to become the largest religion in the world.. 2000 years later! All historians, whether believers or not, acknowledge this FACT. They acknowledge that this means something EXTRAORDINARY had to happen to cause people to risk and give their lives as so many Christians did and STILL do.” – kathy
There is a debate as to whether Islam is bigger or whether Christianity is bigger. Same for which is growing faster.
But what difference does that make? Why would it be about the numbers, especially when the NT says that few will find it?
Also, most christians havent seen jesus – so maybe the first few knew something we didnt, but everyone after was going on hearsay – not eyewitness, first hand knowledge.
And were the christians persecuted when christ was alive?
and age of religion doesnt really have any bearing on it’s truth either, since there are older religions still being practiced that you acknowledge as being non-truth.
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“Do you understand the word “CAN”? As in “CAN be compelling evidence (in other religions)… that’s NOT an acknowledgment that all other martyrdom IS the same. Can’t keep wasting my time explaining this basic stuff to you William..” – Kathy
I’m not trying to waste anyone’s time, and if you’re tired of wasting it, you should show where Christian martyrdom is superior to the others.
“I did do this. You’re using desperation tactics.. because you were unable to debate my actual points long ago. Until this changes, I’m not going to bother responding to any more of your comments.” – Kathy
Again, I believe I have responded to your points many times over. And yet again, if I missed your better points, then please list them – I’m not entirely sure how asking for your points is “desperation” on my part – but call it what you will, I can’t address something I haven’t seen.
From my perspective, you keep going around in this circle to avoid addressing my points.
We can leave the circle, and avoid having to say the other is dodging or avoiding this or that, this way:
1) You say Christian martyrdom is better/superior/more convincing than other martyrs. Explain how.
2) You asked which religion was true, and made it clear that you were asking which was truly divine – in what way are you asking whether a religion is true, if not true in their claims of being divine?
3) Evidence other than martyrs, the age of the bible, and the bible itself – do you have any? Specific prophecies (the ones we’ve seen mike list apparently weren’t written to convince the nonbeliever, are there any that were?), archaeology (but again, if we accept the “for” evidence, then we must also consider the “against” evidence). Or anything else that you may think helps.
We’ll call these 3 questions the “Mid 3.”
When listing your evidence, could you number them, or name them? This would help ensure they all get address and make it less likely that they get overlooked by myself or anyone else. Does that sound reasonable?
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Arch said:
“Before you take the word of a man like Josephus, you need to look into what kind of man he was. He was a traitor to his own people. He fought the Romans in the First Jewish-Roman War of 66–73, when he was drafted as a commander of the Galilean forces. According to Josephus, he was trapped in a cave with forty of his companions in July 67. The Romans asked the group to surrender, but they refused. Josephus suggested a method of collective suicide: they drew lots and killed each other, one by one, counting to every third person – Josephus fixed the lots so that his name would come out last – the sole survivor of this process was Josephus (IMAGINE THAT!), who surrendered to the Roman forces and became a prisoner.”
And this “story” you readily accept as truth… (IMAGINE THAT!)
Sorry Arch, you are the one who doesn’t understand what true objectivity is.
“Maybe you overlooked this part, Kathy:
“Reports and legends abound and they are not always reliable, but it is safe to say that the apostles went far and wide as heralds of the message of the risen Christ. An early legend says they cast lots and divided up the world to determine who would go where, so all could hear about Jesus.” (emphasis,mine)”
I overlooked nothing Arch.. I just applied OBJECTIVITY. Just because it’s not “documented” in writing, this does NOT mean it can’t be true.
IF you apply objectivity, you might ask MORE questions.. you MIGHT look at the WHOLE picture.. you MIGHT think it COULD be the way it happened! Instead, you look for EXCUSES to claim it’s all lies.
Here are the FACTS Arch.. Christianity is the largest religion today.. despite the FACTUAL DOCUMENTED UNDISPUTED PERSECUTION of Christians. Before Jesus died on the cross, His disciples were scared FOR THEIR LIVES… and the persecution got WORSE after Jesus was killed. People DON’T continue to preach something when their lives are being threatened if it’s not true. And I’ll pre-emptively state here that.. not ALL those people had “mental illness” or had “halucinations” or whatever dumb excuse you all want to claim.. there were too many people… it wasn’t one or two. And they weren’t just trying to “drag others into their fantasy”.. they were RISKING THEIR LIVES.. and LOSING THEIR LIVES.. they were trying to recruit “members” into their “club”.. OBJECTIVITY would TELL you this.. but you are DEAF to objectivity as are all liberals. (and my objectivity is fully INTACT when I generalize liberals.. because I can and have PROVEN that my accusations are TRUE of the MAJORITY.
I haven’t read all of your comments, I just scanned them.. I KNOW what a waste of time liberals are.. I’m tired of liberal ignorance robbing me of my time.
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Bottom line Arch..
There’s NO DISPUTING that people spread the Gospel after Jesus execution WHILE their lives were being threatened. There’s NO DISPUTING that Christians were being killed.
And here’s the challenge for you/ liberals.. COMMON SENSE tells us that Jesus disciples were leading the way in spreading the Gospel.. and COMMON SENSE would further tell us that they most likely WERE KILLED for doing so. Your / atheist’s DESPERATE need to dispute what was MOST LIKELY the TRUTH.. is just further proof of YOUR LACK OF OBJECTIVITY.
All of you have incredible BIAS. And it’s sad. I feel sorry for all of you.
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“People DON’T continue to preach something when their lives are being threatened if it’s not true” – kahy
I know you didn’t mean to imply this, but this is saying that all religions are true.
and you said this,
“.. but you are DEAF to objectivity as are all liberals.” – kathy
and this,
“I haven’t read all of your comments, I just scanned them.. I KNOW what a waste of time liberals are.. I’m tired of liberal ignorance robbing me of my time.” – kathy
then quit wasting time and put of actual evidence, or if preachers and martyrs are the extent of your evidence, then I suppose there really is nothing else to discuss.
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“And here’s the challenge for you/ liberals.. COMMON SENSE tells us that Jesus disciples were leading the way in spreading the Gospel.. and COMMON SENSE would further tell us that they most likely WERE KILLED for doing so. Your / atheist’s DESPERATE need to dispute what was MOST LIKELY the TRUTH.. is just further proof of YOUR LACK OF OBJECTIVITY.” – kathy
it’s also widely accepted that the majority of Christians in the time were poor. This isnt the poor like we have them today, where they have one car, a regular cell phone instead of a smart phone… these people were struggling daily to eat and live. they were widely under-educated if not illiterate – with virtually no way to move up in the economic ladder.
I have no doubt that they believed wholeheartedly, but what else did they have to live for? With jesus they had mansions promised to them and eternal life and joy – a stark contrast to the horrible lives on earth.
Look at the rich young ruler. he was eager to serve until it cost him his wealth. The majority of christians didnt have wealth. what did they have to lose? In their minds, dying was a great reward and an end to their suffering.
I’m not sure you’re qualified to lecture anyone regarding objectivity or common sense, but let’s say you’re right. let’s say common sense and objectivity both dictate that martyrs and bunches of disciples couldn’t be wrong…
…is it the quantity of members that indicates whether a religion is the right one or not, or the quantity of martyrs?
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William..
The only comment that is worth responding to.. (but not for any credit on your part)..
“There is a debate as to whether Islam is bigger or whether Christianity is bigger. Same for which is growing faster.”
Here’s some objectivity for you..
Islam KILLS people if they don’t become Muslims.. or if they leave Islam.
Christianity does not.
To honest, rational people.. they will DISCERN this KEY difference between the two.
To dishonest un objective people, they won’t think this is pertinent.. as you just illustrated.
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kathy, one thing you keep ignoring is that not all muslims kill people. how many do you know. Have you ever been to the middle east? Did you realize that muslims serve in the US military?
Did you know that some sects of christianity killed people for leaving or for being non-christian? You might say that they were not true christians and muslims will do the same, and cite the koran passages that say that suicide is wrong.
you’re literally making things up as you go, and typing “lack objectivity” or “liberals” to each statement as if that makes up for all the lacking substance – it doesnt.
But after all of these comments and numerous attempts to get you deliver more evidence, I guess you’re basically saying the extent of your beliefs fall on the shoulders of martyrs and lots of other christians.
That doesnt sway me, but i can see that it does you. Thanks for sharing.
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Sure, it just sends them to Hell. And don’t forget about the OT’s commands to kill heretics… there’s really no difference.
And you should really research the martyr issue a bit more. Christians weren’t persecuted to the extent that you’ve been led to believe. Were some persecuted? Certainly. But most of that didn’t occur until centuries after Jesus’ death, and even then it wasn’t something that went on for years and years. Consider this:
You can read more here and here.
The biggest event of Christian persecution occurred during the reigns of Diocletian and Galerius. The dates of that persecutions were around 303 CE to 313 CE.
But the main point to gather from this is that the vast majority of Christian martyrs lived long, long after Jesus did. There’s no way they could know that their beliefs were true. And aside from those handful of instances, they were mostly left alone. I don’t want to minimize what happened to those people. But to hang onto it as a cornerstone of one’s faith is irrational. It just doesn’t point to accuracy, only conviction.
Again, you really should do some heavy research into this if it’s such an important point to you. But like others have said, I doubt the example of martyrs was what really brought you to Christianity. Why don’t you share your personal reasons behind why you believe. Maybe it comes down to personal experiences where you’ve felt God in your life? I know that’s a big one for many people…
Either way, the martyr argument isn’t convincing anyone here, so why don’t we move on to something that relates more deeply to why you believe?
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and kathy,
“Islam KILLS people if they don’t become Muslims.. or if they leave Islam.
Christianity does not.
To honest, rational people.. they will DISCERN this KEY difference between the two.
To dishonest un objective people, they won’t think this is pertinent.. as you just illustrated.” – kathy
what difference does that difference make? If peace and not killing are true signs of God, and if killing and non-peace are true signs of not-god, then how do you reconcile the OT?
perhaps Buddhism has the most credentials after all.
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Oh dear Jesus! I’ve been reading these posts since yesterday and I just had to speak now, and thank Kathy!
Kathy, you saved my soul. I was a sinner and a mocker of religion. But reading your eloquent insights, I now see the extent of the evil liberal agenda in our schools and in our government and within the poisoned hearts of your adversaries here, who seek to devour your soul!
People actually died for Jesus! Why cant these here understand the gravity of someone actually dying for blessed Jesus?
When I first read your points, Kathy, on the martyrs, it pierced my very heart and I wept. Then I fell on my knees and pledged my life to Jesus! So thank you!
Jesus first died for us, and now others have died for him! Praise God!
Christianity is right and helps people go to Heaven!
Islam blows people up!
Case Closed!
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“Islam KILLS people if they don’t become Muslims.. or if they leave Islam.
Christianity does not.”
“Sure, it just sends them to Hell. And don’t forget about the OT’s commands to kill heretics… there’s really no difference.” -Nate
Sorry Nate, there are MAJOR differences. People have a CHOICE with Christianity.. Islam gives NO CHOICE.
And bringing up the OT is also a very weak argument.. it had nothing to do with Christianity.. it was about those specific people thousands of years EARLIER.
More great examples of lack of objectivity.
“And you should really research the martyr issue a bit more. Christians weren’t persecuted to the extent that you’ve been led to believe. Were some persecuted? Certainly. But most of that didn’t occur until centuries after Jesus’ death, and even then it wasn’t something that went on for years and years.”
And nope.. sorry again, Nate..
Nothing you stated takes away anything in this/my comment:
“There’s NO DISPUTING that people spread the Gospel after Jesus execution WHILE their lives were being threatened. There’s NO DISPUTING that Christians were being killed.
And here’s the challenge for you/ liberals.. COMMON SENSE tells us that Jesus disciples were leading the way in spreading the Gospel.. and COMMON SENSE would further tell us that they most likely WERE KILLED for doing so. Your / atheist’s DESPERATE need to dispute what was MOST LIKELY the TRUTH.. is just further proof of YOUR LACK OF OBJECTIVITY.”
All you did was IGNORE this and try to sway the debate towards the numbers of martyrs.. with the narrative.. “.. it really wasn’t that many”.. or most were much later or some other point that attempts to DIMINISH the very thing that not only kept Christianity alive but made it the most followed faith.
No matter how much you try to dismiss martyrdom, it’s the very thing that spread Christianity. It is KEY to Christianity’s survival. Without it, we wouldn’t be debating it today because it wouldn’t exist.
So, of course you need to diminish it and attack it. It’s a dishonest tactic. Any honest person would acknowledge the critical role of Christian martyrdom.
And for the record.. I don’t trust Wikipedia. Liberal bias is always present.
“Again, you really should do some heavy research into this if it’s such an important point to you. But like others have said, I doubt the example of martyrs was what really brought you to Christianity. Why don’t you share your personal reasons behind why you believe.”
You’ve given me the “arguments”, and they are extremely weak… I don’t need to do any “heavy” research.. again, common sense tells us that Christian martyrdom happened and was key in spreading the Truth of the Gospels.
And, thanks, but I’ll stick with the compelling evidence… your attempt to redirect me to my personal testimony is only bolstering my claims of your dishonesty Nate. You’ve all heard the personal testimonies.. and that’s a lot easier for you all to argue.. ” I felt the same way.. “.
Again, Nate.. your “FINDING TRUTH” claim is nothing but a “GIANT LIE”.. in my opinion, based on the exchanges I’ve had with you on this blog.
You’ve STILL failed to give a simple answer to my question of which religion has the most evidence to support it’s “truth”/Truth. You don’t find anything, much less, “TRUTH”.. by IGNORING the unsettled issues/ points.
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“I haven’t read all of your comments, I just scanned them.. I KNOW what a waste of time liberals are..” – Now THERE’s the kind of Christian objectivity we’ve come to expect from you, Kathy!
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Don’t just say they’re different. Explain how. How do people have a choice with Christianity when it threatens eternity, but they don’t have a choice with Islam which threatens their physical lives?
Oh, did the Jews serve a different god? I was under the impression that it was the same one advocated by Christians…
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And for the record.. I don’t trust Wikipedia. Liberal bias is always present. — Kathy
So, Kathy, just for the record, what type of research/information do you trust?
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I can answer that, Nan – Christian websites, where everyone believes the same fairy tale.
Kathy, why don’t you just stick your head back in the sand, where you’re most comfortable. You’re not convincing anyone here of ANYthing – you’re simply too bigoted and close-minded for any of us to consider anything you have to say.
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I noticed last night, when Mike left us, that membership dropped from 295 to 294, and it now stands at 293, with Kathy not reporting in. Can we suspect that possibly Kathy has left us as well?
I’ll leave this for her, just in case:
Kathy, you asked how Christianity could have spread the way it did if it weren’t true, and that IS a good question, but watching you over these weeks, I think I’ve figured it out. A couple of dozen people ran around the Levant, refusing to listen to anyone who didn’t agree with them. They passed around fairy tales of magic and hear-say information to gullible, superstitious, illiterate people as COMPELLING EVIDENCE. And they promised those people eternal life that after they died, they would never realize, along with the promise of paradise and the threat of hell. And Bingo, instant convert!
You have taught us well – thank you, and don’t let the sand get in your ears, it tickles.
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Kathy, sidebar…
It saddens me that you take such a hard-nosed, adversarial stance against all non-believers–that you impute such nasty motives to us, that you accuse us of being “dishonest un objective people” and “DEAF to objectivity as are all liberals”. The accusations are generally annoying, sometimes offensive, and sometimes laughable. But I think I get it.
It’s very hardline Romans 1:18ff.
If your many claims about God and the Bible are true, and:
– if we’re not suppressing the truth, but rather we’re honestly seeking it;
– if “what can be known about God is [not] plain to [us]”;
– if we’re not “futile in our thinking”, and our hearts are neither foolish nor darkened;
then we would(!) have an excuse for not believing.
And if we have a valid excuse for not believing, and yet God still sends us to hell to be tortured forever–eternally writhing in anguish, gnashing our teeth–then he is not just. And if he is not just, then…well, something’s gotta give. (At least some part of your method of interpreting the Bible, if not the propositions of his very existence, or of the Bible being his message to us.)
You’ve been told that there are “forces at work” and “powers of the air” that work against you and God and his purposes, so be on guard…doubt is dangerous…whoever is not for us is against us… It’s very insular thinking. It tends to keep people from questioning the veracity of the truth claims–and even when (theological) questions come up, often times the information questioners receive is controlled. Believers are often warned about even consulting “secular” or “liberal” sources of information.
The Christian metastory provides quite a bit of hope and feeling of purpose for believers. That, and the promise of an eternal, blissful (after)life are pretty compelling propositions for many people. It’s easy to want that to be true.
So while I wish you would soften that hardline stance, I think I see many reasons why you haven’t yet.
Now what if–hypothetically, say–you actually came to acknowledge that we make a good point or two, or that some of your arguments are not as compelling as you had thought. Then what?
How good a point was it? Would a more liberal interpretation of some Bible passage resolve the issue to your satisfaction? Or does some flavor of progressive Christianity make more sense than you thought? Or…do you start pulling the thread, and perhaps even eventually destroy the sweater of your faith? Do you poke and prod and eventually the house of cards falls?
Deconversion is hard. I thought I had the answers to these big existential questions of life. I thought I would live on after death with loved ones in a blissful afterlife, without the suffering and pain and shortcomings of this life. Truth be told, I’m still not over the loss of this hope and (apparent) purpose. I’m still wrestling with the “now what?”, and “how now shall I live?”.
What if it all came apart for you, like it did for us–would you be OK?
So on the one hand, I’d like to convince you that I examined the evidence honestly, with an open mind, as objectively as I could–and that that’s how I reached the conclusion I did, and that’s why I don’t believe anymore. I think it would be good for your own mental health if you softened that hardline stance, and others might appreciate it, too. And it seems there’s no other way to go about that than by examining the evidence itself with you.
On the other hand, I worry what would happen to a dyed-in-the-wool true believer like you if you actually lost that belief. This raises the question of whether we should even continue this ongoing conversation at all.
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“Sorry Nate, there are MAJOR differences. People have a CHOICE with Christianity.. Islam gives NO CHOICE.
Don’t just say they’re different. Explain how. How do people have a choice with Christianity when it threatens eternity, but they don’t have a choice with Islam which threatens their physical lives?”
Are YOU or any atheist here following Christianity Nate? You keep referring to the threat of eternal punishment but you clearly don’t believe it’s real because you dismiss the God of the Bible. So, you are clearly choosing not to follow God. He gave you the free will to make that choice. This is vastly different than Islam where you don’t get to choose to follow “allah” or not. You have no free will.
I understand your point, but it’s another weak one.. even though, ultimately we don’t get to choose our fate.. it’s still different from Islam.
You and all atheists resent the “threat” of eternal punishment for rejecting God.. you don’t think it’s “fair”. Well, no one ever said life was fair. And while you and others believe it’s unfair, your Creator, who is infinitely more wise than all of us.. wouldn’t treat us unjustly.. even if you can’t see that.. all the liberal minded see is the “threat”. It’s a common liberal thought process.. liberals easily feel “bullied” and intimidated by those who they feel have an advantage over them. Righteousness and Truth don’t rank as high on the list of what’s important.. it’s all about them and their “feelings”.. they don’t like people to threaten their security, and a large part of their “security” is the preservation of their pride and ego.
A good example is what’s going on with Israel and Gaza.. another perfect example of how the great majority of liberals side with the Palestinians and conservatives side with Israel. Israel is the “righteous” side in this conflict.. it’s the Palestinian leaders/ Hamas who are killing their own people in cold blood just so they can keep the world opinion on their side.. they force their own people to stay in places they know Israel is going to bomb just so they can make Israel look like the bad guys. And it’s the liberal minded who fall for it, but really, it’s just an excuse.. they see Israel as the “bullies”.. because they have the military advantage, they have the control. Again, it doesn’t matter that the Palestinians are in the wrong. It’s a bully complex that those with the liberal mindset have.. they resent their own country (the US).. feeling that we are the “bully” of the world.. and this delusional mindset extends to the One who controls our ultimate fate. Instead of seeing how America has helped the world.. and instead of seeing how much God has done for them, all liberals can see is the “threat” to their pride and ego and their ability to control their fate.
But it’s all so puzzling because resenting God’s authority and control over our destiny won’t change it one bit.. He’s still in control of your fate.
And bringing up the OT is also a very weak argument.. it had nothing to do with Christianity.. it was about those specific people thousands of years EARLIER.
Oh, did the Jews serve a different god? I was under the impression that it was the same one advocated by Christians…
Same God.. DIFFERENT situation/ time. Did Jesus command us to kill those who wouldn’t follow Him? Nope.
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“This is vastly different than Islam where you don’t get to choose to follow “allah” or not. You have no free will.”
“I understand your point, but it’s another weak one.. even though, ultimately we don’t get to choose our fate.. it’s still different from Islam.”
Kathy , look at your 2 comments above and explain how the END GAME is different ?
” It’s a common liberal thought process.. liberals easily feel “bullied” and intimidated by those who they feel have an advantage over them.” Don’t hurt your hand slapping yourself on the back, Kathy. While I feel You & Mike have definitely bullied people here, I don’t think anyone feels threatened by any advantage you feel you have over them. 🙂
“your Creator, who is infinitely more wise than all of us.. wouldn’t treat us unjustly.” How does the crime fit the time Kathy ? Sin = Eternal punishment ?
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